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On March 17 2019 19:19 Psychobabas wrote: Sure and while you are at it, make unpowered protoss buildings slowly die as well... haha sure if you want.. not really relevant though..
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On March 17 2019 19:48 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2019 19:19 Psychobabas wrote: Sure and while you are at it, make unpowered protoss buildings slowly die as well... haha sure if you want.. not really relevant though..
Hes right. Protoss buildings should lose ho and sheild in same time after unpowered as zerg building dying whem creep is out, hatch killed, etc.
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Losing shields would actually make sense for protoss, but thats absolutely not relevant in this discussion.
I wonder if mapmakers could solve the issue by making less/no dead spaces. There is no need to have dead space behind most main mineral lines for example (and its annoying af to play against too).
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building float is a microcosmic joke gimmick that gets kept in the game mainly out of nostalgia for broodwar sound effects, and i fully support removing it. fuck it, let addons move around instead and we never have to worry about it again
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On March 18 2019 00:07 Zeon0 wrote: I wonder if mapmakers could solve the issue by making less/no dead spaces. There is no need to have dead space behind most main mineral lines for example (and its annoying af to play against too). now you're getting into territory that affects balance. dead space is pivotal in the effectiveness of any air harass strategy, it affects nydus play (hiding overlords etc) and it has a major effect on bio overall, not to mention that dead space afffects the map architecture and how ground terrain works too. lot of things are "annoying to play against" because you just don't know how so you lack confidence
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terran building float to force draw shouldn't be removed as a game mechanic unless you also plan to take away something that affects base racing or very late late game scenarios like you know... permanently stealthed dark templar which have almost no answer to if you cannot get out a single orbital as terran or overseer as zerg; infinitely spawnable creep tumors (as long as the new one doesn't die a zerg could force stalemate by making tumors over and over as long as they got something to kill at least one of the older tumors as to not exceed building limit. But its really dumb when you think about it. One strategy that a lot of terran players do at high levels especially with styles like mech is you will typically float off buildings you don't use for vision; like your barracks, or when widowmines in TvP become useless and you don't want tanks you would float your factory. Adding fuel to buildings removes that entirely.
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On March 17 2019 23:45 Stormhoof wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2019 19:48 Alejandrisha wrote:On March 17 2019 19:19 Psychobabas wrote: Sure and while you are at it, make unpowered protoss buildings slowly die as well... haha sure if you want.. not really relevant though.. Hes right. Protoss buildings should lose ho and sheild in same time after unpowered as zerg building dying whem creep is out, hatch killed, etc. but protoss buildings arent organic, its kinda like unplugging a computer no?
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On March 18 2019 01:02 Ryu3600 wrote: terran building float to force draw shouldn't be removed as a game mechanic unless you also plan to take away something that affects base racing or very late late game scenarios like you know... permanently stealthed dark templar which have almost no answer to if you cannot get out a single orbital as terran or overseer as zerg; infinitely spawnable creep tumors (as long as the new one doesn't die a zerg could force stalemate by making tumors over and over as long as they got something to kill at least one of the older tumors as to not exceed building limit. But its really dumb when you think about it. One strategy that a lot of terran players do at high levels especially with styles like mech is you will typically float off buildings you don't use for vision; like your barracks, or when widowmines in TvP become useless and you don't want tanks you would float your factory. Adding fuel to buildings removes that entirely.
o.0
Dude, creep tumors don't count as buildings...
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On March 18 2019 02:13 Highrock1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2019 01:02 Ryu3600 wrote: terran building float to force draw shouldn't be removed as a game mechanic unless you also plan to take away something that affects base racing or very late late game scenarios like you know... permanently stealthed dark templar which have almost no answer to if you cannot get out a single orbital as terran or overseer as zerg; infinitely spawnable creep tumors (as long as the new one doesn't die a zerg could force stalemate by making tumors over and over as long as they got something to kill at least one of the older tumors as to not exceed building limit. But its really dumb when you think about it. One strategy that a lot of terran players do at high levels especially with styles like mech is you will typically float off buildings you don't use for vision; like your barracks, or when widowmines in TvP become useless and you don't want tanks you would float your factory. Adding fuel to buildings removes that entirely. o.0 Dude, creep tumors don't count as buildings...
If you build a creep tumor it resets the stalemate timer, see JuggernautJason vs Bioice
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I honestly think this is an elegant and simple solution to a long-standing issue
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sure. and while we're at it, allow terran addons to be made on either side of the rax/fact/starport
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I like it. I'd even more like it if floating buildings would just not count as buildings for staying in the game. Essentially the same, but easier. Terran would survive if they have at least one building on the ground, but if they lift all their buildings at once, game over.
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This has been discussed to death lol, this is probably the most commonly raised solution.
I don't mind the mechanic, every race has small advantages in base trades (terran buildings can float in corner, zerg doesn't have to lose overlords while P/T always lose their supply structures making rebuilding harder, protoss has recall). I think forcing players to respect these asymmetries and account for them in their winning strategy isn't unreasonable.
I wish draw offers were easier to make in SC2 though; pausing the game and waiting a few minutes for an organizer to come over is pretty annoying, as is waiting for the in-game stalemate timer (e.g. on ladder).
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I remember this always being a topic in WoL and HotS, and have always thought it was a good thing to talk about seriously. One of the only major "issues" to me has always been the amount of people who go completely off the rails with illogical arguments: "if we change this now, what's to stop us from changing [X, Y, and Z that are completely beside the point and don't actually have anything to do with the issue at hand and the proposed fix]!"
More examples: + Show Spoiler +"If we have Nydus HP/Armor/build time/literally anything, why don't we just make all Zerg units invincible forever while we're at it?!" "If we change Medivac Boost/speed/capacity/ability to pick up siege mode tanks, why don't we just remove all Mech and Bio units while we're at it?" And so on and so on with that nonsense. (Look up some fallacies such as this false dilemma fallacy if you don't understand why they are not sound arguments, or why blowing things out of proportion can make an argument invalid.)
These type of changes - "after X minutes in-game or Y minutes in the air, Terran structures will lose HP" or even "there should be more emphasis put on deciding if and when and where T structures can float to on ladder and tourney maps" - for the sake of reducing the amount of game draws, poor sportsmanship (only on ladder nowadays and much more rare as well afaik, but still), and simply un-fun qualities of the game are sound changes to me.
One issue I do think is worth discussing is how many of these kinds of changes would result in the game feeling too complex and too "misunderstandable" for players, though the very basic idea is fairly elegant.
Changing the win and draw condition rules to incorporate this into them would be another route, something that would keep the basic idea of the draw condition but with a different, potentially more fair implementation. My first idea from several years ago was to have all structures start to bleed out/catch fire (clear in-game timer with consequences/benefits depending on the player/situation) once the game detects a potential draw state (no units dying, no structures being constructed or destroyed), or possibly burn at a slow but increasing rate. I really believe it can work well even if it is now pretty rare for it to matter. Maybe not exactly how I imagine it, but something similar could work. One problem with my idea I wondered about was that it could put a huge emphasis on having town halls and many more structures or repairing/healing units (Queens) in these situations compared to before. However, I think that's kind of been the case for base trades and draws throughout the game's history.
Maybe, maybe not, just some thoughts from many years ago that very much still apply.
*Edited for typos and clarity on mobile.
**It could even have a cool name, like for per-game draws (per-game as in both players must fulfill draw state conditions for the effects to begin) it could simply be Sudden Death ("...now that we're in Sudden Death, player one is blah blah blah." Or, it could be per-player (each player fulfills conditions only for themselves), Danger Mode, Decay, whatever ("Player two has Decay..." Player four is in Danger Mode..."). In the case of a per-player condition for a Terran player, the effect would function similarly to having a timer on their floating structures.
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I was thinking about this exact thing after seeing the discussions during WESG and I agree with what a lot of people have put forward so far. I think a way in which to make it easy to understand is to use the same gray timer bars that are used for queen injects and chronoboost to indicate how much time is left until the building starts taking damage. This way, in the case of floating a barracks to scout or when floating back buildings from proxies, it'll be easy to see that the building needs to be quickly landed before it starts taking damage (though if the timer for how long a building can float before it starts taking damage is set right it shouldn't be too much of an issue anyway).
I'm all for this change. It is incredibly minor but shuts down abusive play on ladder that sucks the fun out of playing the game (like the infamous game of Vibe vs. He Who Must Not Be Named, where the terran had clearly lost but floated his building in the corner with vikings and liberators and demanded Vibe allow for draw conditions even though Vibe still had mining and had the units to slowly kill the terran)
On March 18 2019 02:17 sertman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2019 02:13 Highrock1 wrote:On March 18 2019 01:02 Ryu3600 wrote: terran building float to force draw shouldn't be removed as a game mechanic unless you also plan to take away something that affects base racing or very late late game scenarios like you know... permanently stealthed dark templar which have almost no answer to if you cannot get out a single orbital as terran or overseer as zerg; infinitely spawnable creep tumors (as long as the new one doesn't die a zerg could force stalemate by making tumors over and over as long as they got something to kill at least one of the older tumors as to not exceed building limit. But its really dumb when you think about it. One strategy that a lot of terran players do at high levels especially with styles like mech is you will typically float off buildings you don't use for vision; like your barracks, or when widowmines in TvP become useless and you don't want tanks you would float your factory. Adding fuel to buildings removes that entirely. o.0 Dude, creep tumors don't count as buildings... If you build a creep tumor it resets the stalemate timer, see JuggernautJason vs Bioice That honestly sounds like a bug that needs to be fixed more than anything. If creep tumors don't count toward the loss conditions, they should not reset the draw timer.
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On March 18 2019 03:24 yubo56 wrote: This has been discussed to death lol, this is probably the most commonly raised solution.
I don't mind the mechanic, every race has small advantages in base trades (terran buildings can float in corner, zerg doesn't have to lose overlords while P/T always lose their supply structures making rebuilding harder, protoss has recall). I think forcing players to respect these asymmetries and account for them in their winning strategy isn't unreasonable.
I wish draw offers were easier to make in SC2 though; pausing the game and waiting a few minutes for an organizer to come over is pretty annoying, as is waiting for the in-game stalemate timer (e.g. on ladder).
An offer draw button would be really funny to have in the game I support this 100%
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On March 17 2019 16:27 Highrock1 wrote: Hi,
I've always found Terran's ability to draw the game by floating away their buildings a very unsatisfying way for the game to end. And one that is without parallel for the other races.
I'm suggesting a very simple fix, Terran buildings take VERY LITTLE damage while floating, something along the line of a single HP per second. Meaning a command center would take over twenty minutes to die. But it would eventually die, making float away stalemate not viable. Maybe even give a certain grace period, having the damage only start after a few minutes floating.
Would like to hear your thoughts?
Hi,
I've always found Zerg's ability to burrow units, especially banelings a very unsatisfying way for the game to end. And one that is without parallel for the other races.
I'm suggesting a very simple fix, Zerg units take VERY LITTLE damage while burrowed, something along the line of a single HP per second. Meaning an ultralisk would take over six minutes to die. But burrowed units would eventually die, making baneling landmine wins not viable. Maybe even give a certain grace period, having the damage only start after a few minutes burrowed.
Would like to hear your thoughts?
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On March 18 2019 03:48 Ryu3600 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2019 03:24 yubo56 wrote: This has been discussed to death lol, this is probably the most commonly raised solution.
I don't mind the mechanic, every race has small advantages in base trades (terran buildings can float in corner, zerg doesn't have to lose overlords while P/T always lose their supply structures making rebuilding harder, protoss has recall). I think forcing players to respect these asymmetries and account for them in their winning strategy isn't unreasonable.
I wish draw offers were easier to make in SC2 though; pausing the game and waiting a few minutes for an organizer to come over is pretty annoying, as is waiting for the in-game stalemate timer (e.g. on ladder). An offer draw button would be really funny to have in the game I support this 100%
Legitimate draws happen so rarely that an 'offer draw' button is basically just a new tool for abuse.
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On March 18 2019 04:06 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2019 16:27 Highrock1 wrote: Hi,
I've always found Terran's ability to draw the game by floating away their buildings a very unsatisfying way for the game to end. And one that is without parallel for the other races.
I'm suggesting a very simple fix, Terran buildings take VERY LITTLE damage while floating, something along the line of a single HP per second. Meaning a command center would take over twenty minutes to die. But it would eventually die, making float away stalemate not viable. Maybe even give a certain grace period, having the damage only start after a few minutes floating.
Would like to hear your thoughts? Hi, I've always found Zerg's ability to burrow units, especially banelings a very unsatisfying way for the game to end. And one that is without parallel for the other races. I'm suggesting a very simple fix, Zerg units take VERY LITTLE damage while burrowed, something along the line of a single HP per second. Meaning an ultralisk would take over six minutes to die. But it would eventually die, making baneling landmine wins not viable. Maybe even give a certain grace period, having the damage only start after a few minutes burrowed. Would like to hear your thoughts?
Try to mock his point, if you will, but his post was about being able to force a game into a draw, not about wins. So you're really missing the point of his argument.
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On March 18 2019 04:09 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2019 03:48 Ryu3600 wrote:On March 18 2019 03:24 yubo56 wrote: This has been discussed to death lol, this is probably the most commonly raised solution.
I don't mind the mechanic, every race has small advantages in base trades (terran buildings can float in corner, zerg doesn't have to lose overlords while P/T always lose their supply structures making rebuilding harder, protoss has recall). I think forcing players to respect these asymmetries and account for them in their winning strategy isn't unreasonable.
I wish draw offers were easier to make in SC2 though; pausing the game and waiting a few minutes for an organizer to come over is pretty annoying, as is waiting for the in-game stalemate timer (e.g. on ladder). An offer draw button would be really funny to have in the game I support this 100% Legitimate draws happen so rarely that an 'offer draw' button is basically just a new tool for abuse. Literally was just writing this, so ditto. A "give up" button in team games I'm slightly less opposed to, but against for single player and especially SC2.
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