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How about we make Terran win the game if there building survive like 3hours? This way there wouldn't be the unfair mechanic that only Terrans can force draw.
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On March 19 2019 23:37 Majick wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2019 22:16 TrashEconomy wrote:On March 18 2019 11:29 brickrd wrote:On March 18 2019 04:16 TrashEconomy wrote: Have any of you considered making a single air unit if you think Terran floating is just so terrible and unfair?
A single. Air unit.
Oh, you can't afford to make a single air unit?
In the match you 'won'?
Interesting. most people who care about this don't think it's imbalanced unless they're in gold league, it's just a stupid mechanic that adds nothing, is required for nothing, and directly leads to a lot of boring games and griefing on ladder Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that also plays an important role in lategame/basetrade strategy. Lifting is how Terran punishes a Protoss/Zerg for abusing the dominance it otherwise has during basetrades/scrappy lategames. Yeah, you get teleportation and decentralized production: but if you screw it up, you can be put in a situation where all you can do is draw or lose. Being angry at Terran lifting is simply childish. OK, get rid of it- what are we going to replace it with? Want to give Terran a teleportation mechanic? I'll take that, thanks. I also think that Zerg getting endless sources of free units is a stupid mechanic, but it's obviously necessary to the current state of the game and removing it would have cascading effects. Man, are you even reading the thread? Nobody is saying to remove the lifting completely and nobody is angry at Terran lifting. It's a great mechanic on it's own. The problem is that it can be done indefinitely which in some situations gives Terran a choice to draw a game that would otherwise be lost. otherwise be lost? why? If the opponent does not have the ability to kill the buildings why should he deserve to win?
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On March 20 2019 02:03 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2019 23:37 Majick wrote:On March 19 2019 22:16 TrashEconomy wrote:On March 18 2019 11:29 brickrd wrote:On March 18 2019 04:16 TrashEconomy wrote: Have any of you considered making a single air unit if you think Terran floating is just so terrible and unfair?
A single. Air unit.
Oh, you can't afford to make a single air unit?
In the match you 'won'?
Interesting. most people who care about this don't think it's imbalanced unless they're in gold league, it's just a stupid mechanic that adds nothing, is required for nothing, and directly leads to a lot of boring games and griefing on ladder Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that also plays an important role in lategame/basetrade strategy. Lifting is how Terran punishes a Protoss/Zerg for abusing the dominance it otherwise has during basetrades/scrappy lategames. Yeah, you get teleportation and decentralized production: but if you screw it up, you can be put in a situation where all you can do is draw or lose. Being angry at Terran lifting is simply childish. OK, get rid of it- what are we going to replace it with? Want to give Terran a teleportation mechanic? I'll take that, thanks. I also think that Zerg getting endless sources of free units is a stupid mechanic, but it's obviously necessary to the current state of the game and removing it would have cascading effects. Man, are you even reading the thread? Nobody is saying to remove the lifting completely and nobody is angry at Terran lifting. It's a great mechanic on it's own. The problem is that it can be done indefinitely which in some situations gives Terran a choice to draw a game that would otherwise be lost. otherwise be lost? why? If the opponent does not have the ability to kill the buildings why should he deserve to win? because the other 2 races flat out would lose in similar position.
Now if you think Terran deserves this bonus, fine, each to his own, but dont pretend you dont understand why people find this a problem.
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On March 20 2019 01:54 DSh1 wrote: How about we make Terran win the game if there building survive like 3hours? This way there wouldn't be the unfair mechanic that only Terrans can force draw.
So they can force wins by not even trying to win????????
Why is everyone confusing draws with win/loss only scenarios. A stalemate that exists because both parties aren't willing to engage in a fight and losing it and both agreeing they aren't risking it is not the same when one party can remove the risk of losing at all. The only way this becomes 'equivalent' is if you let zerg buildings burrow or protoss buildings cloak when unpowered, to take from some of the stupid balance whine rewrites of the original post.
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On March 20 2019 02:03 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2019 23:37 Majick wrote:On March 19 2019 22:16 TrashEconomy wrote:On March 18 2019 11:29 brickrd wrote:On March 18 2019 04:16 TrashEconomy wrote: Have any of you considered making a single air unit if you think Terran floating is just so terrible and unfair?
A single. Air unit.
Oh, you can't afford to make a single air unit?
In the match you 'won'?
Interesting. most people who care about this don't think it's imbalanced unless they're in gold league, it's just a stupid mechanic that adds nothing, is required for nothing, and directly leads to a lot of boring games and griefing on ladder Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that also plays an important role in lategame/basetrade strategy. Lifting is how Terran punishes a Protoss/Zerg for abusing the dominance it otherwise has during basetrades/scrappy lategames. Yeah, you get teleportation and decentralized production: but if you screw it up, you can be put in a situation where all you can do is draw or lose. Being angry at Terran lifting is simply childish. OK, get rid of it- what are we going to replace it with? Want to give Terran a teleportation mechanic? I'll take that, thanks. I also think that Zerg getting endless sources of free units is a stupid mechanic, but it's obviously necessary to the current state of the game and removing it would have cascading effects. Man, are you even reading the thread? Nobody is saying to remove the lifting completely and nobody is angry at Terran lifting. It's a great mechanic on it's own. The problem is that it can be done indefinitely which in some situations gives Terran a choice to draw a game that would otherwise be lost. otherwise be lost? why? If the opponent does not have the ability to kill the buildings why should he deserve to win?
Only race that can secure it's buildings categorically in certain scenarios is Terran, that's why. It's not about removing Terran mechanics of lift, no no no... But if a Terran player's only viable option (in given level of competition) and response to secure his/hers buildings (and continuation of the game) is: lifting them up, it goes immediately to the level of asymmetric warfare beyond every balance talks... like ever.
Draw conditions could be and should be hard-coded to the game.
This isn't big problem, tho.
This doesn't count as "anti-terran" statement. Maru had enough balls to realize what he was doing, and ultimately acted accordingly. The moral of the story.
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On March 20 2019 02:11 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2019 02:03 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2019 23:37 Majick wrote:On March 19 2019 22:16 TrashEconomy wrote:On March 18 2019 11:29 brickrd wrote:On March 18 2019 04:16 TrashEconomy wrote: Have any of you considered making a single air unit if you think Terran floating is just so terrible and unfair?
A single. Air unit.
Oh, you can't afford to make a single air unit?
In the match you 'won'?
Interesting. most people who care about this don't think it's imbalanced unless they're in gold league, it's just a stupid mechanic that adds nothing, is required for nothing, and directly leads to a lot of boring games and griefing on ladder Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that also plays an important role in lategame/basetrade strategy. Lifting is how Terran punishes a Protoss/Zerg for abusing the dominance it otherwise has during basetrades/scrappy lategames. Yeah, you get teleportation and decentralized production: but if you screw it up, you can be put in a situation where all you can do is draw or lose. Being angry at Terran lifting is simply childish. OK, get rid of it- what are we going to replace it with? Want to give Terran a teleportation mechanic? I'll take that, thanks. I also think that Zerg getting endless sources of free units is a stupid mechanic, but it's obviously necessary to the current state of the game and removing it would have cascading effects. Man, are you even reading the thread? Nobody is saying to remove the lifting completely and nobody is angry at Terran lifting. It's a great mechanic on it's own. The problem is that it can be done indefinitely which in some situations gives Terran a choice to draw a game that would otherwise be lost. otherwise be lost? why? If the opponent does not have the ability to kill the buildings why should he deserve to win? because the other 2 races flat out would lose in similar position. Now if you think Terran deserves this bonus, fine, each to his own, but dont pretend you dont understand why people find this a problem. If a Protoss has nothing left except DTs and the opponent has no detection he wins. Unfair?
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On March 20 2019 02:31 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2019 02:11 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 02:03 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2019 23:37 Majick wrote:On March 19 2019 22:16 TrashEconomy wrote:On March 18 2019 11:29 brickrd wrote:On March 18 2019 04:16 TrashEconomy wrote: Have any of you considered making a single air unit if you think Terran floating is just so terrible and unfair?
A single. Air unit.
Oh, you can't afford to make a single air unit?
In the match you 'won'?
Interesting. most people who care about this don't think it's imbalanced unless they're in gold league, it's just a stupid mechanic that adds nothing, is required for nothing, and directly leads to a lot of boring games and griefing on ladder Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that also plays an important role in lategame/basetrade strategy. Lifting is how Terran punishes a Protoss/Zerg for abusing the dominance it otherwise has during basetrades/scrappy lategames. Yeah, you get teleportation and decentralized production: but if you screw it up, you can be put in a situation where all you can do is draw or lose. Being angry at Terran lifting is simply childish. OK, get rid of it- what are we going to replace it with? Want to give Terran a teleportation mechanic? I'll take that, thanks. I also think that Zerg getting endless sources of free units is a stupid mechanic, but it's obviously necessary to the current state of the game and removing it would have cascading effects. Man, are you even reading the thread? Nobody is saying to remove the lifting completely and nobody is angry at Terran lifting. It's a great mechanic on it's own. The problem is that it can be done indefinitely which in some situations gives Terran a choice to draw a game that would otherwise be lost. otherwise be lost? why? If the opponent does not have the ability to kill the buildings why should he deserve to win? because the other 2 races flat out would lose in similar position. Now if you think Terran deserves this bonus, fine, each to his own, but dont pretend you dont understand why people find this a problem. If a Protoss has nothing left except DTs and the opponent has no detection he wins. Unfair?
Not if the oponent is terran
Really, the amount of whining in the lines of "race X has Y different" on these forums is staggering (and it's a million times worse on b.net, unless people abandoned that place already). Why would you even want to have three races if there weren't significant differences between them? Moreover, unless you are a top pro, you can always switch races if you thing some has major advantages at literally no cost.
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Czech Republic12115 Posts
On March 20 2019 02:11 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2019 02:03 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2019 23:37 Majick wrote:On March 19 2019 22:16 TrashEconomy wrote:On March 18 2019 11:29 brickrd wrote:On March 18 2019 04:16 TrashEconomy wrote: Have any of you considered making a single air unit if you think Terran floating is just so terrible and unfair?
A single. Air unit.
Oh, you can't afford to make a single air unit?
In the match you 'won'?
Interesting. most people who care about this don't think it's imbalanced unless they're in gold league, it's just a stupid mechanic that adds nothing, is required for nothing, and directly leads to a lot of boring games and griefing on ladder Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that also plays an important role in lategame/basetrade strategy. Lifting is how Terran punishes a Protoss/Zerg for abusing the dominance it otherwise has during basetrades/scrappy lategames. Yeah, you get teleportation and decentralized production: but if you screw it up, you can be put in a situation where all you can do is draw or lose. Being angry at Terran lifting is simply childish. OK, get rid of it- what are we going to replace it with? Want to give Terran a teleportation mechanic? I'll take that, thanks. I also think that Zerg getting endless sources of free units is a stupid mechanic, but it's obviously necessary to the current state of the game and removing it would have cascading effects. Man, are you even reading the thread? Nobody is saying to remove the lifting completely and nobody is angry at Terran lifting. It's a great mechanic on it's own. The problem is that it can be done indefinitely which in some situations gives Terran a choice to draw a game that would otherwise be lost. otherwise be lost? why? If the opponent does not have the ability to kill the buildings why should he deserve to win? because the other 2 races flat out would lose in similar position. Now if you think Terran deserves this bonus, fine, each to his own, but dont pretend you dont understand why people find this a problem. How about Terran doesn't have adetection and Protoss has so many DTs Terran can't kill the last NExus, but Protoss can't make probes, what now?
Edit> This is similar problem, with a RAVEN you would be able to kill Protoss but since you don't have any detecting unit...
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On March 20 2019 02:38 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2019 02:11 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 02:03 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2019 23:37 Majick wrote:On March 19 2019 22:16 TrashEconomy wrote:On March 18 2019 11:29 brickrd wrote:On March 18 2019 04:16 TrashEconomy wrote: Have any of you considered making a single air unit if you think Terran floating is just so terrible and unfair?
A single. Air unit.
Oh, you can't afford to make a single air unit?
In the match you 'won'?
Interesting. most people who care about this don't think it's imbalanced unless they're in gold league, it's just a stupid mechanic that adds nothing, is required for nothing, and directly leads to a lot of boring games and griefing on ladder Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that also plays an important role in lategame/basetrade strategy. Lifting is how Terran punishes a Protoss/Zerg for abusing the dominance it otherwise has during basetrades/scrappy lategames. Yeah, you get teleportation and decentralized production: but if you screw it up, you can be put in a situation where all you can do is draw or lose. Being angry at Terran lifting is simply childish. OK, get rid of it- what are we going to replace it with? Want to give Terran a teleportation mechanic? I'll take that, thanks. I also think that Zerg getting endless sources of free units is a stupid mechanic, but it's obviously necessary to the current state of the game and removing it would have cascading effects. Man, are you even reading the thread? Nobody is saying to remove the lifting completely and nobody is angry at Terran lifting. It's a great mechanic on it's own. The problem is that it can be done indefinitely which in some situations gives Terran a choice to draw a game that would otherwise be lost. otherwise be lost? why? If the opponent does not have the ability to kill the buildings why should he deserve to win? because the other 2 races flat out would lose in similar position. Now if you think Terran deserves this bonus, fine, each to his own, but dont pretend you dont understand why people find this a problem. How about Terran doesn't have adetection and Protoss has so many DTs Terran can't kill the last NExus, but Protoss can't make probes, what now? Edit> This is similar problem, with a RAVEN you would be able to kill Protoss but since you don't have any detecting unit...
It Is Not The Same. Nothing is stopping you from trying to destroy the Nexus. Kiting, medivac pickups, whatever, you could try to win and the Protoss is at risk of losing, but the Terran can fly their buildings away and try to win and even if they fail they do not lose, but Protoss does not have that same option. An agreed upon stalemate where neither party is willing to fight is not the same as a forced one. Protoss could literally have probes, win the fight and be able to mine minerals but if they are out of gas and access to air could never win the game if they rebuilt a 200/200 army. No other race can take the actual win conditions away for low tier units.
Edit: units really aren't even a part of this conversation as they having nothing to do with the win condition.
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On March 20 2019 02:38 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2019 02:11 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 02:03 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2019 23:37 Majick wrote:On March 19 2019 22:16 TrashEconomy wrote:On March 18 2019 11:29 brickrd wrote:On March 18 2019 04:16 TrashEconomy wrote: Have any of you considered making a single air unit if you think Terran floating is just so terrible and unfair?
A single. Air unit.
Oh, you can't afford to make a single air unit?
In the match you 'won'?
Interesting. most people who care about this don't think it's imbalanced unless they're in gold league, it's just a stupid mechanic that adds nothing, is required for nothing, and directly leads to a lot of boring games and griefing on ladder Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that also plays an important role in lategame/basetrade strategy. Lifting is how Terran punishes a Protoss/Zerg for abusing the dominance it otherwise has during basetrades/scrappy lategames. Yeah, you get teleportation and decentralized production: but if you screw it up, you can be put in a situation where all you can do is draw or lose. Being angry at Terran lifting is simply childish. OK, get rid of it- what are we going to replace it with? Want to give Terran a teleportation mechanic? I'll take that, thanks. I also think that Zerg getting endless sources of free units is a stupid mechanic, but it's obviously necessary to the current state of the game and removing it would have cascading effects. Man, are you even reading the thread? Nobody is saying to remove the lifting completely and nobody is angry at Terran lifting. It's a great mechanic on it's own. The problem is that it can be done indefinitely which in some situations gives Terran a choice to draw a game that would otherwise be lost. otherwise be lost? why? If the opponent does not have the ability to kill the buildings why should he deserve to win? because the other 2 races flat out would lose in similar position. Now if you think Terran deserves this bonus, fine, each to his own, but dont pretend you dont understand why people find this a problem. How about Terran doesn't have adetection and Protoss has so many DTs Terran can't kill the last NExus, but Protoss can't make probes, what now? Edit> This is similar problem, with a RAVEN you would be able to kill Protoss but since you don't have any detecting unit... There are many scenarios, and most matchups have a roughly similar situation if you turn it around.
Terrans have cloacked units as well, Im sure all of you seen games that were won by terran because of lack of detection on the Z/P part. It' s a legit technique in almost every MU to snipe overseers/observers and win with cloack units.
Similarily with flying units, or ranged units, or early static defence, or proxies, drops etc...
All of this mechanis work both ways. Sure DTs are perma-cloacked and zerg can only proxy a hatchery, but there is always something for both sides.
except for the force a draw by floating
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On March 20 2019 02:34 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2019 02:31 Charoisaur wrote:On March 20 2019 02:11 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 02:03 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2019 23:37 Majick wrote:On March 19 2019 22:16 TrashEconomy wrote:On March 18 2019 11:29 brickrd wrote:On March 18 2019 04:16 TrashEconomy wrote: Have any of you considered making a single air unit if you think Terran floating is just so terrible and unfair?
A single. Air unit.
Oh, you can't afford to make a single air unit?
In the match you 'won'?
Interesting. most people who care about this don't think it's imbalanced unless they're in gold league, it's just a stupid mechanic that adds nothing, is required for nothing, and directly leads to a lot of boring games and griefing on ladder Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that also plays an important role in lategame/basetrade strategy. Lifting is how Terran punishes a Protoss/Zerg for abusing the dominance it otherwise has during basetrades/scrappy lategames. Yeah, you get teleportation and decentralized production: but if you screw it up, you can be put in a situation where all you can do is draw or lose. Being angry at Terran lifting is simply childish. OK, get rid of it- what are we going to replace it with? Want to give Terran a teleportation mechanic? I'll take that, thanks. I also think that Zerg getting endless sources of free units is a stupid mechanic, but it's obviously necessary to the current state of the game and removing it would have cascading effects. Man, are you even reading the thread? Nobody is saying to remove the lifting completely and nobody is angry at Terran lifting. It's a great mechanic on it's own. The problem is that it can be done indefinitely which in some situations gives Terran a choice to draw a game that would otherwise be lost. otherwise be lost? why? If the opponent does not have the ability to kill the buildings why should he deserve to win? because the other 2 races flat out would lose in similar position. Now if you think Terran deserves this bonus, fine, each to his own, but dont pretend you dont understand why people find this a problem. If a Protoss has nothing left except DTs and the opponent has no detection he wins. Unfair? Not if the oponent is terran Really, the amount of whining in the lines of "race X has Y different" on these forums is staggering (and it's a million times worse on b.net, unless people abandoned that place already). Why would you even want to have three races if there weren't significant differences between them? Moreover, unless you are a top pro, you can always switch races if you thing some has major advantages at literally no cost.
The only way you can argue asymmetry is fair in this case is if the other races have their own access to such a force draw scenario, but they don't. All three have access to asymmetrical win/loss scenarios, but only Terran has actual access to a forced draw scenario, it's not asymmetry they're just missing a part of their face, this is not the same as balance whining about something that you are losing to because the other party can complain about things they can lose to about you. Terran can't complain about other races forcing draws.
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On March 20 2019 02:22 hg2g2 wrote: A stalemate that exists because both parties aren't willing to engage in a fight and losing it and both agreeing they aren't risking it is not the same when one party can remove the risk of losing at all.
You know what else removes the risk of losing? It's called winning.
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-> Lifting (all or at least most essential) buildings up in perceived no-win scenario for a Terran should constitute as 'giving up' i.e. loss.
You are Terran and you can reasonably continue the fight with at least with marginal chance of winning that game: but you have no reasons to do that.
Yes, yes, maybe temporarily, but if they are still hanging in the air there (out of the map/corner of the map) when your opponent have a control/overwhelming superiority on the ground, you just admit that you've no chances there anymore on the ground. You admit that you can't mine or produce anything (even if there would still be resources left for that). Right?
Only thing you can do is to scout with/from your invulnerable sky-castles how your ground-dwelling opponent controls the scene... Your only real options are going back to production on the ground and fight (with high probability of a loss) or just say: "GG".
... as you've already lost your strategic initiative.
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Czech Republic12115 Posts
On March 20 2019 02:59 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2019 02:38 deacon.frost wrote:On March 20 2019 02:11 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 02:03 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2019 23:37 Majick wrote:On March 19 2019 22:16 TrashEconomy wrote:On March 18 2019 11:29 brickrd wrote:On March 18 2019 04:16 TrashEconomy wrote: Have any of you considered making a single air unit if you think Terran floating is just so terrible and unfair?
A single. Air unit.
Oh, you can't afford to make a single air unit?
In the match you 'won'?
Interesting. most people who care about this don't think it's imbalanced unless they're in gold league, it's just a stupid mechanic that adds nothing, is required for nothing, and directly leads to a lot of boring games and griefing on ladder Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that also plays an important role in lategame/basetrade strategy. Lifting is how Terran punishes a Protoss/Zerg for abusing the dominance it otherwise has during basetrades/scrappy lategames. Yeah, you get teleportation and decentralized production: but if you screw it up, you can be put in a situation where all you can do is draw or lose. Being angry at Terran lifting is simply childish. OK, get rid of it- what are we going to replace it with? Want to give Terran a teleportation mechanic? I'll take that, thanks. I also think that Zerg getting endless sources of free units is a stupid mechanic, but it's obviously necessary to the current state of the game and removing it would have cascading effects. Man, are you even reading the thread? Nobody is saying to remove the lifting completely and nobody is angry at Terran lifting. It's a great mechanic on it's own. The problem is that it can be done indefinitely which in some situations gives Terran a choice to draw a game that would otherwise be lost. otherwise be lost? why? If the opponent does not have the ability to kill the buildings why should he deserve to win? because the other 2 races flat out would lose in similar position. Now if you think Terran deserves this bonus, fine, each to his own, but dont pretend you dont understand why people find this a problem. How about Terran doesn't have adetection and Protoss has so many DTs Terran can't kill the last NExus, but Protoss can't make probes, what now? Edit> This is similar problem, with a RAVEN you would be able to kill Protoss but since you don't have any detecting unit... There are many scenarios, and most matchups have a roughly similar situation if you turn it around. Terrans have cloacked units as well, Im sure all of you seen games that were won by terran because of lack of detection on the Z/P part. It' s a legit technique in almost every MU to snipe overseers/observers and win with cloack units. Similarily with flying units, or ranged units, or early static defence, or proxies, drops etc... All of this mechanis work both ways. Sure DTs are perma-cloacked and zerg can only proxy a hatchery, but there is always something for both sides. except for the force a draw by floating Yes, that's the point, floating doesn't matter unless you're pissed off from ladder. How many pro games with important floating can you count? We are solving a problem which has no point in solving. That's like trying to solve how to stop people from dying to sharks while other things are running wild and killing several times more people.
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On March 20 2019 02:59 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2019 02:38 deacon.frost wrote:On March 20 2019 02:11 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 02:03 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2019 23:37 Majick wrote:On March 19 2019 22:16 TrashEconomy wrote:On March 18 2019 11:29 brickrd wrote:On March 18 2019 04:16 TrashEconomy wrote: Have any of you considered making a single air unit if you think Terran floating is just so terrible and unfair?
A single. Air unit.
Oh, you can't afford to make a single air unit?
In the match you 'won'?
Interesting. most people who care about this don't think it's imbalanced unless they're in gold league, it's just a stupid mechanic that adds nothing, is required for nothing, and directly leads to a lot of boring games and griefing on ladder Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that also plays an important role in lategame/basetrade strategy. Lifting is how Terran punishes a Protoss/Zerg for abusing the dominance it otherwise has during basetrades/scrappy lategames. Yeah, you get teleportation and decentralized production: but if you screw it up, you can be put in a situation where all you can do is draw or lose. Being angry at Terran lifting is simply childish. OK, get rid of it- what are we going to replace it with? Want to give Terran a teleportation mechanic? I'll take that, thanks. I also think that Zerg getting endless sources of free units is a stupid mechanic, but it's obviously necessary to the current state of the game and removing it would have cascading effects. Man, are you even reading the thread? Nobody is saying to remove the lifting completely and nobody is angry at Terran lifting. It's a great mechanic on it's own. The problem is that it can be done indefinitely which in some situations gives Terran a choice to draw a game that would otherwise be lost. otherwise be lost? why? If the opponent does not have the ability to kill the buildings why should he deserve to win? because the other 2 races flat out would lose in similar position. Now if you think Terran deserves this bonus, fine, each to his own, but dont pretend you dont understand why people find this a problem. How about Terran doesn't have adetection and Protoss has so many DTs Terran can't kill the last NExus, but Protoss can't make probes, what now? Edit> This is similar problem, with a RAVEN you would be able to kill Protoss but since you don't have any detecting unit... There are many scenarios, and most matchups have a roughly similar situation if you turn it around. Terrans have cloacked units as well, Im sure all of you seen games that were won by terran because of lack of detection on the Z/P part. It' s a legit technique in almost every MU to snipe overseers/observers and win with cloack units. Similarily with flying units, or ranged units, or early static defence, or proxies, drops etc... All of this mechanis work both ways. Sure DTs are perma-cloacked and zerg can only proxy a hatchery, but there is always something for both sides. except for the force a draw by floating I don't see the difference
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On March 20 2019 03:33 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2019 02:59 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 02:38 deacon.frost wrote:On March 20 2019 02:11 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 02:03 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2019 23:37 Majick wrote:On March 19 2019 22:16 TrashEconomy wrote:On March 18 2019 11:29 brickrd wrote:On March 18 2019 04:16 TrashEconomy wrote: Have any of you considered making a single air unit if you think Terran floating is just so terrible and unfair?
A single. Air unit.
Oh, you can't afford to make a single air unit?
In the match you 'won'?
Interesting. most people who care about this don't think it's imbalanced unless they're in gold league, it's just a stupid mechanic that adds nothing, is required for nothing, and directly leads to a lot of boring games and griefing on ladder Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that also plays an important role in lategame/basetrade strategy. Lifting is how Terran punishes a Protoss/Zerg for abusing the dominance it otherwise has during basetrades/scrappy lategames. Yeah, you get teleportation and decentralized production: but if you screw it up, you can be put in a situation where all you can do is draw or lose. Being angry at Terran lifting is simply childish. OK, get rid of it- what are we going to replace it with? Want to give Terran a teleportation mechanic? I'll take that, thanks. I also think that Zerg getting endless sources of free units is a stupid mechanic, but it's obviously necessary to the current state of the game and removing it would have cascading effects. Man, are you even reading the thread? Nobody is saying to remove the lifting completely and nobody is angry at Terran lifting. It's a great mechanic on it's own. The problem is that it can be done indefinitely which in some situations gives Terran a choice to draw a game that would otherwise be lost. otherwise be lost? why? If the opponent does not have the ability to kill the buildings why should he deserve to win? because the other 2 races flat out would lose in similar position. Now if you think Terran deserves this bonus, fine, each to his own, but dont pretend you dont understand why people find this a problem. How about Terran doesn't have adetection and Protoss has so many DTs Terran can't kill the last NExus, but Protoss can't make probes, what now? Edit> This is similar problem, with a RAVEN you would be able to kill Protoss but since you don't have any detecting unit... There are many scenarios, and most matchups have a roughly similar situation if you turn it around. Terrans have cloacked units as well, Im sure all of you seen games that were won by terran because of lack of detection on the Z/P part. It' s a legit technique in almost every MU to snipe overseers/observers and win with cloack units. Similarily with flying units, or ranged units, or early static defence, or proxies, drops etc... All of this mechanis work both ways. Sure DTs are perma-cloacked and zerg can only proxy a hatchery, but there is always something for both sides. except for the force a draw by floating Yes, that's the point, floating doesn't matter unless you're pissed off from ladder. How many pro games with important floating can you count? We are solving a problem which has no point in solving. That's like trying to solve how to stop people from dying to sharks while other things are running wild and killing several times more people. sure, it's not the biggest problem in the world. But it s so simple to fix it. You cannot solve sharkattacks short of mass slaughtering them to the point of extinction. Say if you could patch the real life, that sharks suddenly dont find humans appetizing, and just ignore them, like Orcas do (which could shred humans just as easily as sharks, but they dont)
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On March 20 2019 03:14 DSh1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2019 02:22 hg2g2 wrote: A stalemate that exists because both parties aren't willing to engage in a fight and losing it and both agreeing they aren't risking it is not the same when one party can remove the risk of losing at all. You know what else removes the risk of losing? It's called winning.
Wow, you literally removed the entire context and your original moronic suggestion in that quote to make this brainless response. If you believe in that statement so much, you should expect Terrans to actually try to WIN the match and be against this condition in any form. All fights should be allowed to play out and all buildings should stay on the ground so that any last army standing can win the game.
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On March 20 2019 03:34 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2019 02:59 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 02:38 deacon.frost wrote:On March 20 2019 02:11 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 02:03 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2019 23:37 Majick wrote:On March 19 2019 22:16 TrashEconomy wrote:On March 18 2019 11:29 brickrd wrote:On March 18 2019 04:16 TrashEconomy wrote: Have any of you considered making a single air unit if you think Terran floating is just so terrible and unfair?
A single. Air unit.
Oh, you can't afford to make a single air unit?
In the match you 'won'?
Interesting. most people who care about this don't think it's imbalanced unless they're in gold league, it's just a stupid mechanic that adds nothing, is required for nothing, and directly leads to a lot of boring games and griefing on ladder Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that also plays an important role in lategame/basetrade strategy. Lifting is how Terran punishes a Protoss/Zerg for abusing the dominance it otherwise has during basetrades/scrappy lategames. Yeah, you get teleportation and decentralized production: but if you screw it up, you can be put in a situation where all you can do is draw or lose. Being angry at Terran lifting is simply childish. OK, get rid of it- what are we going to replace it with? Want to give Terran a teleportation mechanic? I'll take that, thanks. I also think that Zerg getting endless sources of free units is a stupid mechanic, but it's obviously necessary to the current state of the game and removing it would have cascading effects. Man, are you even reading the thread? Nobody is saying to remove the lifting completely and nobody is angry at Terran lifting. It's a great mechanic on it's own. The problem is that it can be done indefinitely which in some situations gives Terran a choice to draw a game that would otherwise be lost. otherwise be lost? why? If the opponent does not have the ability to kill the buildings why should he deserve to win? because the other 2 races flat out would lose in similar position. Now if you think Terran deserves this bonus, fine, each to his own, but dont pretend you dont understand why people find this a problem. How about Terran doesn't have adetection and Protoss has so many DTs Terran can't kill the last NExus, but Protoss can't make probes, what now? Edit> This is similar problem, with a RAVEN you would be able to kill Protoss but since you don't have any detecting unit... There are many scenarios, and most matchups have a roughly similar situation if you turn it around. Terrans have cloacked units as well, Im sure all of you seen games that were won by terran because of lack of detection on the Z/P part. It' s a legit technique in almost every MU to snipe overseers/observers and win with cloack units. Similarily with flying units, or ranged units, or early static defence, or proxies, drops etc... All of this mechanis work both ways. Sure DTs are perma-cloacked and zerg can only proxy a hatchery, but there is always something for both sides. except for the force a draw by floating I don't see the difference you dont see the difference between races having asymmetric but comparable mechanics, and one race having a completely unique, non-comparable, force-a-tie mechanic (albeit rarely comes into play)? Well, cant help you out if that s the case
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On March 20 2019 03:34 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2019 02:59 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 02:38 deacon.frost wrote:On March 20 2019 02:11 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 02:03 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2019 23:37 Majick wrote:On March 19 2019 22:16 TrashEconomy wrote:On March 18 2019 11:29 brickrd wrote:On March 18 2019 04:16 TrashEconomy wrote: Have any of you considered making a single air unit if you think Terran floating is just so terrible and unfair?
A single. Air unit.
Oh, you can't afford to make a single air unit?
In the match you 'won'?
Interesting. most people who care about this don't think it's imbalanced unless they're in gold league, it's just a stupid mechanic that adds nothing, is required for nothing, and directly leads to a lot of boring games and griefing on ladder Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that also plays an important role in lategame/basetrade strategy. Lifting is how Terran punishes a Protoss/Zerg for abusing the dominance it otherwise has during basetrades/scrappy lategames. Yeah, you get teleportation and decentralized production: but if you screw it up, you can be put in a situation where all you can do is draw or lose. Being angry at Terran lifting is simply childish. OK, get rid of it- what are we going to replace it with? Want to give Terran a teleportation mechanic? I'll take that, thanks. I also think that Zerg getting endless sources of free units is a stupid mechanic, but it's obviously necessary to the current state of the game and removing it would have cascading effects. Man, are you even reading the thread? Nobody is saying to remove the lifting completely and nobody is angry at Terran lifting. It's a great mechanic on it's own. The problem is that it can be done indefinitely which in some situations gives Terran a choice to draw a game that would otherwise be lost. otherwise be lost? why? If the opponent does not have the ability to kill the buildings why should he deserve to win? because the other 2 races flat out would lose in similar position. Now if you think Terran deserves this bonus, fine, each to his own, but dont pretend you dont understand why people find this a problem. How about Terran doesn't have adetection and Protoss has so many DTs Terran can't kill the last NExus, but Protoss can't make probes, what now? Edit> This is similar problem, with a RAVEN you would be able to kill Protoss but since you don't have any detecting unit... There are many scenarios, and most matchups have a roughly similar situation if you turn it around. Terrans have cloacked units as well, Im sure all of you seen games that were won by terran because of lack of detection on the Z/P part. It' s a legit technique in almost every MU to snipe overseers/observers and win with cloack units. Similarily with flying units, or ranged units, or early static defence, or proxies, drops etc... All of this mechanis work both ways. Sure DTs are perma-cloacked and zerg can only proxy a hatchery, but there is always something for both sides. except for the force a draw by floating I don't see the difference
Buidlings are Win conditions. Units are not. Only Terran can make their opponents Win condition inaccessible without the need for their own units (Protoss needing a deathball or DTs to defend their nexus is not the same as a flying Nexus in a corner that marines couldn't even shoot). There is no offense, there is no defense. The King is simply not on the board.
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On March 20 2019 03:44 hg2g2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2019 03:14 DSh1 wrote:On March 20 2019 02:22 hg2g2 wrote: A stalemate that exists because both parties aren't willing to engage in a fight and losing it and both agreeing they aren't risking it is not the same when one party can remove the risk of losing at all. You know what else removes the risk of losing? It's called winning. Wow, you literally removed the entire context and your original moronic suggestion in that quote to make this brainless response. If you believe in that statement so much, you should expect Terrans to actually try to WIN the match and be against this condition in any form. All fights should be allowed to play out and all buildings should stay on the ground so that any last army standing can win the game.
I removed the context because it was not relevant. Your posts are so wrong that I don't even know where to start.
What it comes down to is that I like the draw mechanic. Other people don't like it. But you are trying to make it sound like you have a good reason which you actually do not.
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