ps: What if both players have equal micro?
Zealot Precognition - Page 3
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ofclean
United States100 Posts
ps: What if both players have equal micro? | ||
Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
Anyhow, as I said they might just implement it as a straight off damage reduction rather then a % dodge, we don't know yet. | ||
dronefromhell
Canada199 Posts
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ofclean
United States100 Posts
On May 21 2007 06:56 Zironic wrote: Random events are predictable over the course of time, that's the reason proffesional gambers can exist in the first place. Now 12 Zealots fighting 30 Zerglings would be like having 30 coin flips each second! Try doing 30 coinflips, you'll notice that most of the time you'll get very close to 15 : 15, now during a standard melee between those two they'll fight for atleast 10 seconds making it 300! coinflips. At those kinds of amounts the chance that someone wins because of pure luck goes up in the one to a few billion. That means it might happen in one game of starcraft ever. A professional gambler can still lose a given game to a noob. If starcraft was like that, it never would have developed a pro scene. I'm not sure why you want that, I guess it's not relevant. Anyways... Yes, the more units you have, the more "even" the coinflips will be overall. In smaller battles, they will be less "even". Duh. So what? What the fuck is gained from injecting luck? Games should be based on player skill, not a mersenne twister. | ||
ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
On May 21 2007 07:04 Zironic wrote: The odds of getting 99 heads and 1 tail is a bit better then 2^99 and that is a number higher then most calculators can handle. Are you aware of how unlikely that kind of thing is? If you flip a coin 100 times the majority of the times it will be within a 60:40 split. you are a moron. im trying to prove a point that the percentage of dodge wont equal exactly to that percentage. like you said a 100 coin tosses would probably yield 60/40 split and not 50 50. this is to show that luck does play a role in percentages. | ||
Fen
Australia1848 Posts
Imagine a standoff between terran and protoss. Terran has a bunch of siege tanks set up. A single marine then walks up and takes a shot at a zealot. Zealot goes to defend is honor and screw up that marine and charges the marine, Due to the fast movement and large area covered in a short time, that zealot is not WELL in range of bout 6 tanks with the player not having time to respond. | ||
Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
On May 21 2007 07:35 ahk-gosu wrote: you are a moron. im trying to prove a point that the percentage of dodge wont equal exactly to that percentage. like you said a 100 coin tosses would probably yield 60/40 split and not 50 50. this is to show that luck does play a role in percentages. Ofcourse luck plays a role in chance, that is after all the whole definition. I have a feeling you're just failing to understand my point. My point is that percentage chances are harmless, your point seems to be that chance is chance. I fail to see the great genius you're trying to convey. What you're trying to say is akin to "The sky is blue, blood is red"etc. The only exception to this would be I think you're actual point is that you don't want anything to do with chance in the game, but as many people have pointed out, random chance is already in Starcraft, examples are units behind trees, units having high ground etc (that might actually be the only two occurances). Anyhow with the grand scope of starcraft I don't think that something like 20% chance to dodge small attacks will ever leave total victory to chance except in the most extreme circumstances, unlikely to happen ever in any game of SC2 ever played. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with the personal attacks, I think you're just confused. On May 21 2007 07:29 ofclean wrote: A professional gambler can still lose a given game to a noob. If starcraft was like that, it never would have developed a pro scene. I'm not sure why you want that, I guess it's not relevant. Anyways... Yes, the more units you have, the more "even" the coinflips will be overall. In smaller battles, they will be less "even". Duh. So what? What the fuck is gained from injecting luck? Games should be based on player skill, not a mersenne twister. Making the dodge luck based would just be a "realistic" aproach. Persoanlly I've never said that is the best solution, I've just said that if Blizzard went that route as they've done in the past it wouldn't be that bad. A less random solution then 30% dodge would be a plain 30% damage reduction. | ||
SoleSteeler
Canada5281 Posts
On May 21 2007 07:58 Fen wrote: Anyone worry that the charge ability might be a bad thing for starcraft? Imagine a standoff between terran and protoss. Terran has a bunch of siege tanks set up. A single marine then walks up and takes a shot at a zealot. Zealot goes to defend is honor and screw up that marine and charges the marine, Due to the fast movement and large area covered in a short time, that zealot is not WELL in range of bout 6 tanks with the player not having time to respond. You're thinking of it from a Starcraft perspective... wait until you see what the Terran/Zerg really get that counter such an ability. | ||
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
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Tracil
Australia505 Posts
On May 21 2007 08:13 SoleSteeler wrote: You're thinking of it from a Starcraft perspective... wait until you see what the Terran/Zerg really get that counter such an ability. And it happens anyway, hold position ftw~ | ||
TheosEx
United States894 Posts
Even though this thread is full of dumbass theories/arguments to begin with, let's take the idea that there is a 90% chance to hit. That DOESN'T mean 90 hits in 100. That means 90% chance to hit every time. Which means it could possibly mean 100 hits in 100 or even 1 hit in 100. Not that any of this matters, you kids are arguing about ALL the wrong things... Just wanted to clear that up for you... | ||
Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
On May 21 2007 08:24 TheosEx wrote: You kids are BAD at statistics. Even though this thread is full of dumbass theories/arguments to begin with, let's take the idea that there is a 90% chance to hit. That DOESN'T mean 90 hits in 100. That means 90% chance to hit every time. Which means it could possibly mean 100 hits in 100 or even 1 hit in 100. Not that any of this matters, you kids are arguing about ALL the wrong things... Just wanted to clear that up for you... a 90% chance to hit means that it will end up extremly close to 900 when you've done 1000 hits. Sure it might end up as 950 or 850 but it is unlikely (can't currenly bother to calculate the exact chance). One hit in 100 with a 90% chance is unlikely enough that if you do one attack each second for the rest of you're life you're still unlikely to ever see it happen. If you're so worried about streaks you could even program the randomizing engine to prevent high streaks (Some randomizers do this). | ||
FatRine
406 Posts
This isn't anything you can argue with statistics, cause you wont get 10 exactly the same battles with the same importance in a short starcraft game to even things out. You might get a run of luck in a situation which will cause extremely unfair circumstances for the unlucky player. Imagine 1 tank vs 1 zealot, the tank has 3 hits to death, the zealot 1.. It dodges twice in a row and the tank dies.. etc.. | ||
Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
On May 21 2007 10:01 FatRine wrote: The point is more that a starcraft game is short, and in some situations the dodge will result in a "luck" scenario, giving the other player a bigger chance for success. Sure it's unlikely, but one zealot in the wrong situation can dodge 2-3 times in a row...now... IF that happens in a part of the game, such as early game with relatively few units. Then an even situation might immidietly become a unfair scenario in which the lucky guy who got a larger amount of dodge than what is common, wins just because those extra dodges. This isn't anything you can argue with statistics, cause you wont get 10 exactly the same battles with the same importance in a short starcraft game to even things out. You might get a run of luck in a situation which will cause extremely unfair circumstances for the unlucky player. Imagine 1 tank vs 1 zealot, the tank has 3 hits to death, the zealot 1.. It dodges twice in a row and the tank dies.. etc.. The point would, I imagine be, that the zealot can't dodge tank shots, only marine/zerglines/other small stuff. Otherwise the ability wouldn't make sense, I think it's there for the Zealot/Immortal synergy. The highest dodge % Blizzard has ever used is 30%, with 30% dodge you have 3.3% chance to do a tripple dodge. How often will a Zealot dodging 3 shots from a marine or 3 hits from a Zergling change the outcome of the entire game? Most units with "small" attacks also have very high attack speeds. Personally I don't think it will be an issue, if it becomes an issue blizzard will probably notice rather fast and fix it :=) | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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TheosEx
United States894 Posts
On May 21 2007 08:34 Zironic wrote: a 90% chance to hit means that it will end up extremly close to 900 when you've done 1000 hits. Sure it might end up as 950 or 850 but it is unlikely (can't currenly bother to calculate the exact chance). One hit in 100 with a 90% chance is unlikely enough that if you do one attack each second for the rest of you're life you're still unlikely to ever see it happen. If you're so worried about streaks you could even program the randomizing engine to prevent high streaks (Some randomizers do this). No kid. It doesn't mean that. 90% chance means 90% chance AT EVERY OCCURENCE. I understand what you're saying, but if you're trying to talk in those terms, everyone needs to drop the word "statistics" because that's NOT statistics. | ||
Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
On May 21 2007 10:15 TheosEx wrote: No kid. It doesn't mean that. 90% chance means 90% chance AT EVERY OCCURENCE. I understand what you're saying, but if you're trying to talk in those terms, everyone needs to drop the word "statistics" because that's NOT statistics. Where exactly am I denying that it's 90% chance at each occurence? I'm just saying that 90% chance over time tends to even to actually mean 90%. If you want you can use random number generator of your choice and generate 1000 between 1 and 100, add them up and then divide by 1000, you'll find yourself very close to 50. Or just flip 1000 coins, you'll find the heads very close to 500. Things like missing 5 times in a row are like royal straight flushes in poker, yes they can happen but it's not really something you can remotly count on happening. And stop calling people kid when you don't know their age o.O On May 21 2007 10:14 FrozenArbiter wrote: I really think it's just background story.. I sincerely doubt there'll be a random element of dodging (even though it would be no different than the zealot constantly being behind a tree or something). It could be, I think it will be representated by something in game, even if it's just a heavy armor type. | ||
FatRine
406 Posts
When you add percentages for successful hits/dodge or whatever, it's always a luck element which has been added, it has no place in a strategic game. zi ronic moronic | ||
Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
On May 21 2007 10:30 FatRine wrote: the discussion about statistics is completely irrelevant. When you add percentages for successful hits/dodge or whatever, it's always a luck element which has been added, it has no place in a strategic game. zi ronic moronic There are already luck elements in Starcraft... With the crazy pathfinding resource gathering itself is even luck based! Almost all strategy games have luck to some degree, it's not really noticable since there are so many rolls made in the backround at the same time it all evens out to the average. Also just because two words have the same ending doesn't mean you should suddenly call people that, that's gradeschool level namecalling o.O I hope you're a bit more mature then that. | ||
FatRine
406 Posts
i wrote it in caps so it would look like i was screaming, even tho i didnt add a !, i wanted a screamy feel about those lines. | ||
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