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As emotionally invested as people are on this topic, TL rules still apply. That includes flaming and ad hominem attacks. |
On August 30 2012 13:21 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 13:19 whatevername wrote:On August 30 2012 13:18 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 30 2012 13:16 oBlade wrote:On August 30 2012 13:13 nikoYO wrote:On August 30 2012 13:11 oBlade wrote:On August 30 2012 13:07 nikoYO wrote:On August 30 2012 13:05 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 30 2012 13:02 nikoYO wrote:On August 30 2012 12:58 Wombat_NI wrote:
[quote]
In TT1's case he was posting a non-revealing picture to clear up a misconception that Destiny was referring to nude pics from a 15 year old girl. Seems reasonable to me? no sorry it isnt reasonable. its not TT1 job. it would be CatZ job to make a clear OP. he has no business outing this girl here on TL . did you see here picture before on here or knew what she looked like? place a big red dot on her face or what ever but dont OUT and ridicule her again. come on man. i really like root and im angry this isnt handled better. If I recall correctly some guy posted a pic that he claimed was off her Facebook. Not sure if it was before TT1 outed her or whatever though. Fayth's attempts at damage limitation were pretty bad, but I don't think TT1 did anything particularly wrong. Given how rumours need quashed at the source (see my mention of 'Destiny got nudes off a 15 year-old'), and Catz doesn't appear to be about at the minute I think TT1 was being reasonably responsible in clearing up certain misconceptions. someone on her,e some random, posted a random FB pic. TT1 posts the pic and identifys her for all to see. TT1 confirmed with this post which girl they insulted for all to see. thats the thing that bugs me. It bothers you that after she posts a popular personality's dick everywhere and gets him kicked from ROOT (out of vengeance as she confesses), people post G-rated pictures of her so we can know the identity of this random person who's caused a fiasco? and here we go again. it doesnt matter what she did. it just doesnt. its about how is ROOT is handling this. its bad. its poorly. it makes them look like kindergardeners defending themselves. "no we didnt eat the cookie" and have crumbs all over them. Fayth and TT1 have been nothing but forthright. If people want E-Sports to be respected, then the people involved with E-Sports have to be respectable people. You can't be involved in misogynistic conversations that get released to the public. That doesn't make you respectable, forthright or not. Yeah except you know, every single sport which is respected has exactly that kind of conversation -- which, btw, it is not misogynistic to call a chick ugly. Sure athletes have those conversations all the time. And all the time they get in trouble for it. And read the chat log, it is far more than calling a chick ugly, it is indeed the definition of misogynistic talk. No they dont get in trouble for it, because there arent spies in hockey locker rooms stalking the players to see if they called someone ugly. And I read the chatlog, its completely vanilla. Sorry you live in some pathetic little world where the smallest booboo on your heart causes an implosion, but this is pathetically normal stuff for everyone else.
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On August 30 2012 13:31 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 13:29 Crysack wrote:On August 30 2012 13:14 oBlade wrote:On August 30 2012 13:10 Crysack wrote:On August 30 2012 12:09 Sylverin wrote:On August 30 2012 11:59 valium wrote:
That would be hypocritical; casters and players keep telling the fans to contact companies when they do things that help the esports community to let them know it is appreciated. Now the tables have turned; that very advice was taken, people are contacting these companies when players they sponsor do things they do not like.
Was this reaction excessive? In my opinion, yes... but I will not condemn those who did contact the sponsors. I hope you lose your job when you talk about a person that has flirted with you to your friends that you don't find attractive.  Oh wait you won't because offline no one would give a flying fuck I can guarantee you that, in almost any professional environment, having something of this nature circulate is a sure-fire way to have your arse turfed out the door permanently. From a personal perspective, as someone who works at a university, if I were ever caught making comments of this nature or sharing around lewd images, be it privately or publicly, I would lose my job so quickly my head would spin. And as for the ongoing argument in this thread that 'everyone does this with their friends but Destiny & co. were just unlucky and were caught out', might I just point you to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populumtl;dr: Just because everyone (allegedly) acts in a certain manner, does not make it morally acceptable to do so. Frankly speaking, I think everyone involved should be thanking their lucky stars that SC2 teams and the community in general have consistently been and continue to be remarkably lenient when it comes to the childish and offensive behaviour of players. It's not an argumentum ad populum, it's about people's private lives. Just because you'd lose your job doesn't make the behavior wrong, or even were it wrong, termination an appropriate response. I would argue that, had it been revealed publicly or not, their behaviour was nonetheless entirely wrong. Are you seriously going to claim that sending lewd images to one's friends and then subsequently making nasty comments about the subject individual is any way morally upright? I don't advocate thought crime. I highly value the right to say nasty things, especially in private. And even if I did agree, as I said, it being wrong doesn't make termination proportionate.
I said nothing about thought crime. You can say whatever the hell you want, but you should be ready to accept the consequences of your actions. Not to descend into hyperbole, but I could write a paper about the Holocaust being a fiction tomorrow but I would likely never be taken seriously by the academic community again, and would likely be thrown out of the university.
As for termination, that is entirely the domain of the team and the sponsors. The reality is that Destiny and his buddies said some reasonably heinous stuff which in turn became public and was subsequently judged by the sponsors and the team to be potentially damaging to the reputation of the team and, as a correlative, the team's relationship with the community. As such, I believe they were well within their rights to terminate Destiny's position on ROOT.
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"Hi, here are nude pics" --> "thx" "hey bros, check out these nude pics" --> "i herd u showed my nude pics and said mean things, kk i will show ur nude pics to 40k (the number ive heard multiple times) people and fuck you off your team and (in all probability) make you lose fans = lose income --> wow kk i will threaten your schooling/financing
--> 84 page firestorm.
--> esports?
EDIT: --> debate on sexism
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On August 30 2012 13:31 Luepert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 13:21 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 30 2012 13:19 whatevername wrote:On August 30 2012 13:18 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 30 2012 13:16 oBlade wrote:On August 30 2012 13:13 nikoYO wrote:On August 30 2012 13:11 oBlade wrote:On August 30 2012 13:07 nikoYO wrote:On August 30 2012 13:05 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 30 2012 13:02 nikoYO wrote:
[quote]
no sorry it isnt reasonable. its not TT1 job. it would be CatZ job to make a clear OP. he has no business outing this girl here on TL . did you see here picture before on here or knew what she looked like? place a big red dot on her face or what ever but dont OUT and ridicule her again. come on man. i really like root and im angry this isnt handled better. If I recall correctly some guy posted a pic that he claimed was off her Facebook. Not sure if it was before TT1 outed her or whatever though. Fayth's attempts at damage limitation were pretty bad, but I don't think TT1 did anything particularly wrong. Given how rumours need quashed at the source (see my mention of 'Destiny got nudes off a 15 year-old'), and Catz doesn't appear to be about at the minute I think TT1 was being reasonably responsible in clearing up certain misconceptions. someone on her,e some random, posted a random FB pic. TT1 posts the pic and identifys her for all to see. TT1 confirmed with this post which girl they insulted for all to see. thats the thing that bugs me. It bothers you that after she posts a popular personality's dick everywhere and gets him kicked from ROOT (out of vengeance as she confesses), people post G-rated pictures of her so we can know the identity of this random person who's caused a fiasco? and here we go again. it doesnt matter what she did. it just doesnt. its about how is ROOT is handling this. its bad. its poorly. it makes them look like kindergardeners defending themselves. "no we didnt eat the cookie" and have crumbs all over them. Fayth and TT1 have been nothing but forthright. If people want E-Sports to be respected, then the people involved with E-Sports have to be respectable people. You can't be involved in misogynistic conversations that get released to the public. That doesn't make you respectable, forthright or not. Yeah except you know, every single sport which is respected has exactly that kind of conversation -- which, btw, it is not misogynistic to call a chick ugly. Sure athletes have those conversations all the time. And all the time they get in trouble for it. And read the chat log, it is far more than calling a chick ugly, it is indeed the definition of misogynistic talk. The definition of misogyny is the hatred of women by men. He does not hate women. He specifically mentioned how good some women were such as ex-gfs and ex-wives. If it were misogyny he would hate all women, because they were women. He was talking about bluetea because he though she had an ugly face. That is an opinion he is perfectly entitled to have. Calling one woman ugly is not misogyny.
Sigh. Misogyny includes sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.
Destiny was asking if he should have sex with a woman with an ugly face and good body. That is the sexual objectification of women.
Do I really need to spell it all out for you like that? Do I need to explain exactly how that comment makes her (and women in general) out to be sexual objects?
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Also, does this make Destiny the Brett Favre of Esports?
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It's innappropriate to give nudes to friends, but regardless ...
I keep saying I'll start paying attention to Destiny when he starts posting results. I know he's doing MoW and whatever, but he's bootcamped before and gotten nothing out of it. He's a well known character on the scene, and that's fine, but I don't know why any team would ever pick him up. He's a liability, not an investment or asset.
Obviously part of this was anti-fans' over reactions, but I really think the girl's response was completely appropriate.
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In my opinion, which by no means is very important or substantial to this debate, I think that what Destiny did was mean, but not entirely wrong or evil, but yes, I would say mean. If anything, all it did was cost the girl her pride, while on the other hand, what she did, was hack/misuse his twitter account to display nudity to 30k people which most likely are majorly minors and not only embarass Destiny, but also cost him a job. I think the difference here is that what Destiny did was mean, but overly unharmful, while what she did was equally mean, but severely harmful.
Either way, the moral of this story is, watch what you do and say, when your business is carried out through the internet, nothing is safe, secure, or private once it hits these digital walls.
I think Root made the right call, it was hard I'm sure, and I hate to see it happen, but they know what they had to do and did it. It's hard to stand up to enemies, but it's harder to stand up to friends, so much respect to Root for this. I'll personally continue to watch Destiny and other Root players, because regardless of what skeletons some may hold in their closet, their still fun to watch.
P.S. Yeah, I totally used a Harry Potter Reference, get at me bitchez!
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On August 30 2012 13:39 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 13:31 Luepert wrote:On August 30 2012 13:21 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 30 2012 13:19 whatevername wrote:On August 30 2012 13:18 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 30 2012 13:16 oBlade wrote:On August 30 2012 13:13 nikoYO wrote:On August 30 2012 13:11 oBlade wrote:On August 30 2012 13:07 nikoYO wrote:On August 30 2012 13:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
[quote]
If I recall correctly some guy posted a pic that he claimed was off her Facebook. Not sure if it was before TT1 outed her or whatever though.
Fayth's attempts at damage limitation were pretty bad, but I don't think TT1 did anything particularly wrong. Given how rumours need quashed at the source (see my mention of 'Destiny got nudes off a 15 year-old'), and Catz doesn't appear to be about at the minute I think TT1 was being reasonably responsible in clearing up certain misconceptions. someone on her,e some random, posted a random FB pic. TT1 posts the pic and identifys her for all to see. TT1 confirmed with this post which girl they insulted for all to see. thats the thing that bugs me. It bothers you that after she posts a popular personality's dick everywhere and gets him kicked from ROOT (out of vengeance as she confesses), people post G-rated pictures of her so we can know the identity of this random person who's caused a fiasco? and here we go again. it doesnt matter what she did. it just doesnt. its about how is ROOT is handling this. its bad. its poorly. it makes them look like kindergardeners defending themselves. "no we didnt eat the cookie" and have crumbs all over them. Fayth and TT1 have been nothing but forthright. If people want E-Sports to be respected, then the people involved with E-Sports have to be respectable people. You can't be involved in misogynistic conversations that get released to the public. That doesn't make you respectable, forthright or not. Yeah except you know, every single sport which is respected has exactly that kind of conversation -- which, btw, it is not misogynistic to call a chick ugly. Sure athletes have those conversations all the time. And all the time they get in trouble for it. And read the chat log, it is far more than calling a chick ugly, it is indeed the definition of misogynistic talk. The definition of misogyny is the hatred of women by men. He does not hate women. He specifically mentioned how good some women were such as ex-gfs and ex-wives. If it were misogyny he would hate all women, because they were women. He was talking about bluetea because he though she had an ugly face. That is an opinion he is perfectly entitled to have. Calling one woman ugly is not misogyny. Sigh. Misogyny includes sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women. Destiny was asking if he should have sex with a woman with an ugly face and good body. That is the sexual objectification of women. Do I really need to spell it all out for you? If you define misogyny to be some super liberal bullshit like making sexual judgement, then, frankly, no one gives a rats fucking ass what you have to say. I'm committing misandry for judging men on bodies and a misogynist for having physical standards. Oh the fucking outrage.
Go back to san fransico.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 30 2012 13:42 whatevername wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 13:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 30 2012 13:31 Luepert wrote:On August 30 2012 13:21 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 30 2012 13:19 whatevername wrote:On August 30 2012 13:18 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 30 2012 13:16 oBlade wrote:On August 30 2012 13:13 nikoYO wrote:On August 30 2012 13:11 oBlade wrote:On August 30 2012 13:07 nikoYO wrote:
[quote]
someone on her,e some random, posted a random FB pic. TT1 posts the pic and identifys her for all to see. TT1 confirmed with this post which girl they insulted for all to see. thats the thing that bugs me.
It bothers you that after she posts a popular personality's dick everywhere and gets him kicked from ROOT (out of vengeance as she confesses), people post G-rated pictures of her so we can know the identity of this random person who's caused a fiasco? and here we go again. it doesnt matter what she did. it just doesnt. its about how is ROOT is handling this. its bad. its poorly. it makes them look like kindergardeners defending themselves. "no we didnt eat the cookie" and have crumbs all over them. Fayth and TT1 have been nothing but forthright. If people want E-Sports to be respected, then the people involved with E-Sports have to be respectable people. You can't be involved in misogynistic conversations that get released to the public. That doesn't make you respectable, forthright or not. Yeah except you know, every single sport which is respected has exactly that kind of conversation -- which, btw, it is not misogynistic to call a chick ugly. Sure athletes have those conversations all the time. And all the time they get in trouble for it. And read the chat log, it is far more than calling a chick ugly, it is indeed the definition of misogynistic talk. The definition of misogyny is the hatred of women by men. He does not hate women. He specifically mentioned how good some women were such as ex-gfs and ex-wives. If it were misogyny he would hate all women, because they were women. He was talking about bluetea because he though she had an ugly face. That is an opinion he is perfectly entitled to have. Calling one woman ugly is not misogyny. Sigh. Misogyny includes sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women. Destiny was asking if he should have sex with a woman with an ugly face and good body. That is the sexual objectification of women. Do I really need to spell it all out for you? If you define misogyny to be some super liberal bullshit like making sexual judgement, then, frankly, no one gives a rats fucking ass what you have to say. I'm committing misandry for judging men on bodies and a misogynist for having physical standards. Oh the fucking outrage. Go back to san fransico.
wow.
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Just an update, in case anyone didn't see:
According to Fayth (on Destiny's stream), nobody leaked the conversation. What he probably meant was that she went into his skype account by herself, and found the convo.
For whatever what anyone says at this point is worth...
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Oh man this has turned into some sort of sexism debate. Time to abandon ship.
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On August 30 2012 13:33 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 13:26 Luepert wrote:On August 30 2012 13:16 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 30 2012 13:11 Luepert wrote:On August 30 2012 12:21 nikoYO wrote:On August 30 2012 12:18 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2012 12:13 vultdylan wrote:On August 30 2012 12:10 nikoYO wrote:On August 30 2012 12:03 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2012 11:55 nikoYO wrote:
[quote]
oh wow. how blind can you be? she obv hurt or else she wouldnt have posted dick pics on twitter? why are you doing this to CatZ / ROOT? they needed to get rid of destiny it seems you want to be next.
she's hurt by destiny betraying her trust, not by some random guy (me) saying she's not attractive........ mhm i think you really dont get it do you? YOU MAKE YOURSELF LOOK LIKE A SCUMBAG. just stop posting pls. you make root look even more like the "hey lets all be douchebags and assholes team" its really sad man. Yeah, I kinda have to agree, dude. Reading how much you have invested in this tread has made me feel bad about how ROOT is represented in this situation. TT1 has at least stayed relatively quiet about the whole thing and is not making a huge deal out of it. Don't get caught up in the TL drama shitstorm, because honestly, they will fuck you over if you arent careful. guess I'm just really not meant to be in PR, the hypocrisy of mankind is disgusting its not hypocrisy. its common sense and human decency. Let's use logic. Bluetea gives pics to destiny. Destiny owns the pics, she gives ownership of them to him. If osmeone gives you a physical picture, you are allowed to show it to other people. Destiny shares said pics with his friends. They exercise their right to free speech regarding said pics, Bluetea uses Destiny's account to commit a crime. Exposing minors to explicit material without consent. Common sense and "decency" don't change the facts. Destiny did nothing against the law. He did nothing against the law. But what he doesn't wasn't decent, and thus he isn't in jail, he is off a sponsored team. And that is how it should be. OJ Simpson may not have been found guilty, and thus he did nothing "against the law" when his wife was murdered, but you don't see sponsors lining up to do business with him. And that is how should be too. So what is the problem? Bill Clinton did indecent things. Must more serious things. He kept his job and still is a popular and respected figure. (IDK how in the fuck but he is). Tiger Woods did many indecent things. He is still a highly sponsored pro. Difference between OJ and Destiny is that OJ actually did do something wrong, and the court system failed justice, while Destiny didn't actually break the law in the first place. Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 13:27 Wombat_NI wrote:Except.. take Wayne Rooney (famous English footballer) and his antics with prostitutes. Example 1Example 2The guy to my knowledge only lost one big sponsorship deal (with Coca-Cola) out of this and is still richly reimbursed. There's this misconception that E-sports needs to clean up somehow to become on a par with 'legitimate' sports, but in reality these kind of things are often tolerated in those areas, because there's money to be made. OJ was not found guilty. That is a fact. To say the court system failed justice is simply wrong. The court worked the way it was intended. If anything, the police botched the case, but that is neither OJ or the court system's problem. Destiny also did not break the law, but he did something morally unacceptable. Sure Tiger Woods did too, and Tiger Woods paid a heavy price in sponsorship. Is he still sponsored? Sure, because he was best golf player in the world. And maybe if Destiny was far and away the best SC2 player at one time, people would be quicker to forgive. Would that make it right? No. Do I agree with it? No. But Destiny hasn't even been close to being the best SC2 player at any time, and that makes a huge difference. If a mid-level NFL player did what Michael Vick did, they would never be back. But Michael Vick fills seats because he is an amazing football player, not some mid-level guy, so it makes sense from a business perspective to take them back. The same goes for Wayne Rooney. And that is the way the world works. It isn't fair and may not be right. But life isn't fair. Get over it.
My entire point was that this wasn't fair. What amazes me is how you are able to admit it when a second earlier you said: Destiny also did not break the law, but he did something morally unacceptable. You implied something aught to be done when wrong is done. Then you say: It isn't fair and may not be right. But life isn't fair. Get over it.
Why is Destiny's behavior unacceptable when for some reason I have to accept that things aren't right or fair?
Why don't I just tell people to deal with Destiny's behavior then go out and tell people to stop sponsoring Tiger?
Because it's hypocritical that's why.
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so al the haters with their emails did the work ? ... sad day for starcraft 
this guy is nice, met him hsc he isnt like everyone says hes really nice
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On August 30 2012 13:46 Dosey wrote:
Oh man this has turned into some sort of sexism debate. Time to abandon ship.
since it was so coherent before
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On August 30 2012 13:44 soon.Cloak wrote:
Just an update, in case anyone didn't see:
According to Fayth (on Destiny's stream), nobody leaked the conversation. What he probably meant was that she went into his skype account by herself, and found the convo.
For whatever what anyone says at this point is worth...
well what other explanation is there on how it got leaked?
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On August 30 2012 13:31 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 13:29 nikoYO wrote:
e speach is not frees speach, its only free if your say the stuff people expect from you, not your true opinion. this has nothing to do with free speech or what ever. its the basic concept of not being an asshole. we dont need proof again that you are an asshole. one statement is enough.
So the other two guys are assholes because they are saying a girl is ugly as fuck. LOL.
Why are they assholes, should they have said "i think her facial structure is not too pleasing for me."
:D
It baffles me how some people can defend the things that was said in the chatlog & in this very thread. But I guess jerks do come in groups.
the mentality of "oh ops I just got found out about saying incredibly demeanor thing behind someones back, I guess that's a queue for me to talk about it in the public" is completely illogical.
you are representing some companies for crying out loud. What goes on in those roots players thinking it would be ok to come publicly reminiscent about how awesome it was to criticize and demeanor someone's looks. You're not a nameless person behind computers, but players that represent teams and other companies. No sponsors will tolerate these kind of attacks, especially after you showing no remorse but instead almost proudly reiterate the verbal abuses once more in public.
grow up.
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On August 30 2012 13:39 BronzeKnee wrote:
Sigh. Misogyny includes sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.
Destiny was asking if he should have sex with a woman with an ugly face and good body. That is the sexual objectification of women.
Do I really need to spell it all out for you like that? Do I need to explain exactly how that comment makes her (and women in general) out to be sexual objects?
Sigh. I cant belive the bullshit people write. If i say "wow she has great boobs but ugly" that makes me woman hater. Yeah.
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I don't think she's a butterface, fuck you guys
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Pardon the Ad Hominem, but, dammit, I've got balls. OK?
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On August 30 2012 13:47 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 13:31 Sokrates wrote:On August 30 2012 13:29 nikoYO wrote:
e speach is not frees speach, its only free if your say the stuff people expect from you, not your true opinion. this has nothing to do with free speech or what ever. its the basic concept of not being an asshole. we dont need proof again that you are an asshole. one statement is enough. Show nested quote +
So the other two guys are assholes because they are saying a girl is ugly as fuck. LOL.
Why are they assholes, should they have said "i think her facial structure is not too pleasing for me."
:D
It baffles me how some people can defend the things that was said in the chatlog & in this very thread. But I guess jerks do come in groups. the mentality of "oh ops I just got found out about saying incredibly demeanor thing behind someones back, I guess that's a queue for me to talk about it in the public" is completely illogical. you are representing some companies for crying out loud. What goes on in those roots players thinking it would be ok to come publicly reminiscent about how awesome it was to criticize and demeanor someone's looks. You're not a nameless person behind computers, but players that represent teams and other companies. No sponsors will tolerate these kind of attacks, especially when you showed no remorse and instead reiterate them in this thread. grow up.
Grow up? Because of hypocrits like you people have to be afraid that private conversations could leak and then have an impact on their job. Thats even more pathetic what destiny did.
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EPT
