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Ladder-Balance-Data

Forum Index > SC2 General
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skeldark
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-15 02:47:09
July 10 2012 16:34 GMT
#1
[image loading]

Sc2 Ladder-Balance-Data

If you want to help to get more data: MMR-Stats
Beside this little balance data, this program can do his main task: Show your real MMR!



This is the diffrence to the average MMR, of my Ladder-Data, per Race. Not more not Less.

You can not see on any statistic game-data, if the reason is game design or social aspects.
Not you, not me, not blizzard, not a single game designer!

So we have the choice of paying for a global sociology study to find it out (if you can call it this way in sociology ^^)
or just ASSUME it comes from game design like every game company does.



The data is biased towards EU/US and towards higher skill-rate.
+16/-16 MMR is the average for a single win/loose on ladder.
Result:
Difference to average MMR:

MMR Filter: 2000 MMR+ ( above master)
TIME Filter: 1 Jul 2012 00:00:00 GMT - 31 Jul 2012 23:59:59 GMT
T: -15.77
Z: -0.77
P: 12.23

MMR Filter: 2000 MMR+ ( above master)
TIME Filter: 1 Aug 2012 00:00:00 GMT - 11 Aug 2012 11:47:54 GMT
T: -15.24
Z: -7.24
P: 17.76

MMR Filter: No
TIME Filter: 1 Jul 2012 00:00:00 GMT - 31 Jul 2012 23:59:59 GMT
T: -45.24
Z: 28.76
P: 6.76

MMR Filter: No
TIME Filter: 1 Aug 2012 00:00:00 GMT - 11 Aug 2012 11:47:54 GMT
T: -46.82
Z: 23.18
P: 14.18




Old/First Results+ Show Spoiler +

Source Main Data
+ Show Spoiler +

- The data is biased towards EU/US and towards higher skill-rate.

Gamescount: 125976
Sc2-Accounts: 45203

-worst to best player: 3200 MMR
-one average win/loose on Ladder: +16 / -16 MMR

TIME Filter: 13 Jun 2012 02:34:54 GMT - 15 Jul 2012 16:05:41 GMT
Games Left: 109028
MMR Filter: Above Master
Games Left: 19688


Average MMR per Race
+ Show Spoiler +

TIME Filter: 13 Jun 2012 02:34:54 GMT - 15 Jul 2012 16:05:41 GMT
Race account count: 15814
Data average MMR: 1539.46
Difference to average MMR per Race:
T-P: -62.14
T-Z: -117.03
P-Z: -54.89



TIME Filter: 13 Jun 2012 02:34:54 GMT - 15 Jul 2012 16:05:41 GMT
MMR Filter: Above Master
Race account count: 2840
Data average MMR: 2265.5
Difference to average MMR per Race:
T-P: -35.0
T-Z: -21.0
P-Z: 14.0





Win-ratio per Race over Game-Time
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]



Work:+ Show Spoiler +


Preamble

+ Show Spoiler +

I thought long about if i should publish this data or not because i know the balance mentality on tl / reddit / sc2-forums.
I fight against balance whine on this forum since i joined it and even created an script to ignore balance whiners on tl.

However i had the data to calculate objective balance data and the balance threads will pop up so or so.


Work + Show Spoiler +

Some month ago, i created an program to calculate the Hidden match making rating.

To find out more about mmr and functions behind it, i included an upload function, that uploads gamedata on our server.
"Not that" and me used this data to find out more about the MMR. We were able to solve the most secrets and calculate it very accurate.
One day decided to uploaded the race value too, without thinking much about it.
Than i realised that with race value and MMR and a lot of data, i can calculate the average MMR for an race.
This post is about such an calculation.

-I took all users and opponents and calculated their MMR.
-After that, i created a list of bnet accounts with their last MMR and race.
-Over this list i took the average of each race!


This steps are very easy to understand but everything else than easy to calculate.
It took us over 3 month and hundreds work hours to calculate accurate MMR.


Proof of Concept
+ Show Spoiler +




1) Why average race mmr = data balance


We saw many ways to calculate balance in the past. Some can be indicators some are total useless.
Win/loose statistic of pro players was often used because they are easy accessible and can indicate balance problems.
However, this data dont take into account how strong the players are depending to each other.
The Skillfunction behind MMR is invented to do exactly this.

Arguments like "Race x players are stronger than race y players" are invalid because if this is the case we can call this already imbalanced.

2) Why mistakes in the MMR calculation don't affect the result or affect it

First: the accuracy of my mmr calculation is very good. But i can be wrong in some points or for some users.
However nothing in the calculation takes the race into account.

Theoretical it can be that my mmr calculation is race biased without even knowing the race.
However at the moment i dont see any indicator for that. But i will watch it closely

3) Why race populations dont change the result.
Because i take the average. This point is obvious but i better point it out.

4) Statistic independence
if you take the average of the race you must make sure that you don't have and depending factors in the data.
So what can be such a factor:

1) race/skill distribution of the user-group of my program is not representing battlenet user group

There is no reason why 1. should be true.
Also the data includes to 96% the opponents of my users and only to 4% of the users himself.
So the data have a random user base.
so we can exclude point 1.

2) Skill-range of my users is not skill-range of the battlenet

The users of my program have a way higher average skill than the bnet usergroup.
Also the opponent is allways in the range of the user.
So point 2 is true!
We have to remember that our result is not valid for the hole ladder, its only valid for our skillgroup.
Diamand, Master and Grandmaster are overrepresented in my usergroup.
This means this data show the balance on higher skillevels!

5) prove of small deviation and significance

lolcanoe make a nice analyses of the data. thanks for that!

On July 13 2012 07:41 lolcanoe wrote:
US DATA ONLY

Terran Average MMR, STD
1559.214909, 546.131097

Protoss Average MMR, STD
1620.764863, 509.5809733

Zerg Average MMR, STD
1672.129547, 495.3121321

TWO SAMPLE T-TEST RESULTS

T-Stat, T vs Z
T-Stat = -5.693
P = .0000001386

T-Stat, P vs Z
T-Stat : -2.872
P = 0.00472

T-Stat, T vs P
Tstat = -3.03
p = .00238

Histogram of T MMR for normality check:

[image loading]

Anderson-Darling Test for Normality (T only)
[image loading]
With a p slightly greater than .05, we cannot reject normality of the data. However, the weakness of this statistic indicates that normality should be scrutinized in the interpretation.

Assumptions
- MMR is an independent, fair indicator of skill.
- MMR is approximately normal.
- There is no sampling bias between races, however there is a sampling bias towards higher average skill.
- Cause-effect cannot be established by this test.

With over 99% confidence, we can reject the null hypothesis that the averages are equal in all 3 matchups. This is not surprising given the quantity of data, in addition to a maximum 7% difference between T and Z in average MMR.

The data for T appears approximately normal, but the study does not conclusively show that MMR is normal.



6) Because some people have a problem understanding this:

-I calculate the unbalance of skill not the reasons for this unbalance!
-I calculate the average skill of an race not the general popularity of an race

7) Data:
Datafile



Concluding word
+ Show Spoiler +

Please keep in mind that the imbalance result is very small and there will be never perfect balance.
You only improve, in the long term, by ignoring the balance.
Your race can be underpowered today and overpowered tomorrow.

Also, the users make most of the balance, not the game designer.
But this is a different topic....



MMR distribution by races.

+ Show Spoiler +
On July 11 2012 14:39 Not_That wrote:

Click for full version.
[image loading]

Amount of players:
2014 Zerg
1784 Protoss
1516 Terran


Same graph normalized, each bar representing the percentage of players of each race in the bin:
[image loading]


The server does matter as MMR is non comparable cross servers. I've decided to remove KR and SEA and keep EU and NA as they are closest to each other in terms of MMRs, and that's where most of our data comes from.



README before writing a long post why you think that is no scientific statistic prove.
+ Show Spoiler +

This is not an university paper about sc2 balance
I dont get money for this.
I dont personal care which race is op or not

I publish the data i collected with my own program that i wrote to back calculate mmr.
I found a very interesting anomalies in the race data.
So i published the result here.

If you want to do a more complex test or analyse with the data.
Feel free to do so!
datafile

If you read the text careful, i think will agree that this is not perfect but a way better method
than tldp win-ratios or random tournament results.




If you want to discuss the method and the significant of the data , first read my op and the analyses in it
+ the analyses and discussion of other people in this thread.
I did the best i can and willing to do to prove the significant of the data.
If you misunderstand the result this is not my problem.

GL & HF
Skeletor
Save gaming: kill esport
DashedHopes
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada414 Posts
July 10 2012 16:35 GMT
#2
Good job i agree ; )
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
July 10 2012 16:39 GMT
#3
This is some excellent data from our own little ladder world. Good to see it all in once place!
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
July 10 2012 16:44 GMT
#4
Great work Skeldark. Thank you for contributing your hours to give us a better understanding of the situation.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
danl9rm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States3111 Posts
July 10 2012 16:50 GMT
#5
Hmm, pretty cool.

Also, I highly approve of your nick. (The one you signed with at the end.)
"Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one."
1st_Panzer_Div.
Profile Joined November 2010
United States621 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-10 17:03:37
July 10 2012 16:50 GMT
#6
Whoah, rechecked that, you have 149,000 games of data. And you are claiming 4% of that is you as well?

So you have 5900 games of your own in this?

And why did you run the random deviation tests than only running 1,000 games, and not at least equal to the 149,000. (You actually should run random monte carlo's for whatever the estimated current userbase is to get some mock battle.net ladders from a perfectly balanced game). I could easily pick 1,000 games out of your current data and show significant imbalance towards any of the three races.

Also what are the dates your data is from?

This is a cool idea... the deviation bit is just not nearly enough random games to be accurate. What program did you use to run these tests, and was it length of the test that prevented you from doing a few hundred thousand?
Manager, Team RIP ZeeZ
TrippSC2
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States209 Posts
July 10 2012 16:58 GMT
#7
Excellent contribution, skeldark, as always.

I just hope the community doesn't take this for more than it is...
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
July 10 2012 16:58 GMT
#8
On July 11 2012 01:50 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
How the hell did you get 45,000 games of data? Just really curious where you got that, it's a ton of data to work with.

Edit: 4% of that data is you?

So you have 1,800 of your own games in the data? Damn...


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334561

-----------------------------
Thanks for your time and effort man, I think that the mmr difference of only 3 victories is there mainly because TvZ/ZvT isn't the only matchup we have there at the moment, the imbalance for ZvT is probably larger and the balance for TvP and ZvP is probably fine, that results in these numbers I'd guess.
Malaz
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany1257 Posts
July 10 2012 17:01 GMT
#9
Ok time for me as a random player to start crying about balance. Buff random already Blizzard!!
Mendelfist
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden356 Posts
July 10 2012 17:03 GMT
#10
On July 11 2012 01:34 skeldark wrote:
The chance that -race independent- stronger players pick a specific race is near 0.


That's an unsupported statement. I don't know where I've heard it, but I'm pretty sure some Blizzard representative, maybe Josh, has explicitly stated that there is a preference for low level players to choose terran. Does it look the same if you exclude for example everyone below masters?
1st_Panzer_Div.
Profile Joined November 2010
United States621 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-10 17:07:27
July 10 2012 17:04 GMT
#11
On July 11 2012 01:58 SDream wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 11 2012 01:50 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
How the hell did you get 45,000 games of data? Just really curious where you got that, it's a ton of data to work with.

Edit: 4% of that data is you?

So you have 1,800 of your own games in the data? Damn...


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334561

-----------------------------
Thanks for your time and effort man, I think that the mmr difference of only 3 victories is there mainly because TvZ/ZvT isn't the only matchup we have there at the moment, the imbalance for ZvT is probably larger and the balance for TvP and ZvP is probably fine, that results in these numbers I'd guess.



Project is from May 3rd. And I rechecked, 4% would be 5900 games.

And to show what that would do, his current claim is that terran is 2.7% lower mmr than they should be if the game is balanced. 4% of the games are from him personally.

Also see my above post asking why he only ran 1,000 random sample (or x4, so 4,000) and not at the very least 145,000, though the full 1v1 population of b.net would be the most accurate to run for his balanced random samples.
Manager, Team RIP ZeeZ
ElMeanYo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1032 Posts
July 10 2012 17:05 GMT
#12
On July 11 2012 02:01 Malaz wrote:
Ok time for me as a random player to start crying about balance. Buff random already Blizzard!!


I agree. If you go random your opponents should be set to 90% handicap.

+ Show Spoiler +
Just kidding
“The only man who never makes mistakes is the man who never does anything.” ― Theodore Roosevelt
Psychobabas
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
2531 Posts
July 10 2012 17:06 GMT
#13
Well well well...
Stiluz
Profile Joined October 2010
Norway688 Posts
July 10 2012 17:08 GMT
#14
It would be interesting if you could divide this by league too.
Woj
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States133 Posts
July 10 2012 17:10 GMT
#15
Great work on your program!

Looking at your statistics I can come up with a few criticisms.

Namely you inherently have very strong response bias due to the data collection using your program. Additionally, your "Proof of Concept" section is rather confusing and I'm not sure I agree with your postulates there, namely numbers 1 and 3.

I think if you included a section with your calculations, findings and descriptions in a Methods section that you findings would be much easier to follow!
Huragius
Profile Joined September 2010
Lithuania1506 Posts
July 10 2012 17:11 GMT
#16
On July 11 2012 02:08 Stiluz wrote:
It would be interesting if you could divide this by league too.


Or... Divide by zero ?!
StarGalaxy
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany744 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-10 17:17:13
July 10 2012 17:12 GMT
#17
This is very interesting. Thx for all the work!

Do you skeldark think it is possible to make a ladder/ total rank of the MMR data?
Like sc2ranks just with MMR instead of points?
I would be interested who is the best on the servers.



On July 11 2012 01:50 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
4% of the games are from him personally.


That's not what he is saying...
Cj hero | Zest
BearG
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States33 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-10 17:13:57
July 10 2012 17:13 GMT
#18
This shows us what everyone already knew. Terrans are winning less verses zerg. Zergs are winning more versus Terran. Keep doing the data though. It would be interesting to see what it looks like after Terran has some sort of breakthrough.

Edit: Also, good work!
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
July 10 2012 17:14 GMT
#19
This is excellent work but could you please combine it with different skill ranges?

For instance top 2% of Protoss player compared to top 2% of Terran Players etc.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25975 Posts
July 10 2012 17:17 GMT
#20
On July 11 2012 02:03 Mendelfist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 11 2012 01:34 skeldark wrote:
The chance that -race independent- stronger players pick a specific race is near 0.


That's an unsupported statement. I don't know where I've heard it, but I'm pretty sure some Blizzard representative, maybe Josh, has explicitly stated that there is a preference for low level players to choose terran. Does it look the same if you exclude for example everyone below masters?

Agreed. The whole basis for this project is defeated by one realistic (in my eyes) claim that is dismissed. Also, why do we care about average balance? If Zerg is easier than Terran from Bronze - Masters, does it really matter to the members of this forum?
Moderator
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