|
07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 07:20 gruff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:40 PanN wrote:On June 05 2012 06:37 gruff wrote:On June 05 2012 06:27 PanN wrote:
Simply because you're not defending yourself with all your might, and you're giving up and retiring, I bet you're hacking.
Any normal, innocent person, would defend themselves vehemently with this type of accusation. You're just like "man! everyone is always down on me! guess ill retire after the next tournament!"
Fucking defend your self if you're innocent, you look so bad just copping out like you are. Not everyone reacts the same, there are many people that would just get mad and say screw that if they are feeling unjustly treated, just accepting that they won't be able to convince people of the opposite. Just because someone defends himself with vigor doesn't mean he is or isn't hacking. In fact one of the best way to fool people is doing just that. Maybe he's sick of people calling him hacker (which isn't unplausible due to his background) and sees it like a fools arrend to try. This kind of logic is what labels innocent people something they are not. If you want to judge him, do it because of facts not some stupid psycho analysis. Just saying its incredibly stupid of him to just say I'll retire soon. Obviously evidence is important here, are you intoxicated? I never said it wasn't. It's the most important thing here. I'm simply saying its stupid of him to cop out and retire because of accusations, a few posts directly after he says he wants to make this his career. You seem to be the intoxicated one... If you have any sense of empathy (which you and several other posters seems to lack) you can imagine what would make someone make a post like this in the spurr of the moment. Whatever he post here (other than a confession of guilt) have no relevance to wheter or not he's actually hacking and that you and a bunch of other posters jumps at him because how he chose to express himself is just sad. Focus on the evidence, which was my point which you seemed to have missed.
If you actually bothered to read my other posts in this thread everything you just said means nothing. I also said im done talking about this.
|
I really hope this is not true. Pretty disappointing if it is.
|
Just a thought for people with a lot of time :p one could watch his stream vods and compare his streamed play vs these replays. Does he randomly stare at his base for 10sec? Does he not look at his scouting scv? etc
|
Im inclined to agree with Nerchio. Also, when did we dispense with innocent until proven guilty? I think the real moral of the story is we should have a better system for dealing with this sort of thing, if Spades didn't hack this sort of negative exposure for nothing off a 1 post account's thread is outrageous.
|
On June 05 2012 07:22 Deadeight wrote:
I really hope this is not true. Pretty disappointing if it is.
you dont have to worry about being disappointed at all ^_^
|
Russian Federation396 Posts
it looks the unofficial final verdict is... not guilty
|
oh man, people calm down. As long as there are no additional replays and solid proof he's good. this is destroying a career if it continues. this is something that has no place in a forum but at the table of an independent instance. People will always turn into a mob, given the chance. I hope you didn't cheat spades and if you did you probably won't do it again :D
|
On June 05 2012 04:22 drolets wrote:Game 1: Antiga Shipyard. 6:15 When he scouted he didn't see any ev Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 04:22 drolets wrote:
Game 1: Antiga Shipyard.
6:15 When he scouted he didn't see any evidence of fast gas, however, before scanning he already starts to build a bay for defending against cloack-banshee.
9:11 9 sec camera block.
9:30 New banshee from LucifroN is leaving his base, he moves his vikings, that had been waiting at the entry of his natural for over 30 sec to cover his main.
10:45 He gets 2 marines to send them to the xel'naga, however, his camera doesn't move to the center of the map, it gets blocked on his army.
11:02 8 sec camera block
The rest of the game is pure action on the middle of the map, always having vision over his opponent, so there's nothing really weird, just a few camera blocks here and there when he loses control over the xel'naga.
@6:15 can't really comment as I'm not a terran player and wouldn't understand the reasoning at all. @9:11 all the actions that he did during that time were completely feasible to be done without moving his screen. He was just producing units and moving around some scvs. Nothing was selected off screen. @9:30 moving the vikings is something that's iffy but it can be written off as just another decision due to the earlier banshee harass. @10:45 this is completely normal. Just click on the minimap to send them to the watchtower and deselect them. @11:02 same deal at the camera block at 9:11. Game 1: Nothing really conclusive. idence of fast gas, however, before scanning he already starts to build a bay for defending against cloack-banshee. 9:11 9 sec camera block. 9:30 New banshee from LucifroN is leaving his base, he moves his vikings, that had been waiting at the entry of his natural for over 30 sec to cover his main. 10:45 He gets 2 marines to send them to the xel'naga, however, his camera doesn't move to the center of the map, it gets blocked on his army. 11:02 8 sec camera block The rest of the game is pure action on the middle of the map, always having vision over his opponent, so there's nothing really weird, just a few camera blocks here and there when he loses control over the xel'naga.
@6:15 can't really comment as I'm not a terran player and wouldn't understand the reasoning at all.
@9:11 all the actions that he did during that time were completely feasible to be done without moving his screen. He was just producing units and moving around some scvs. Nothing was selected off screen.
@9:30 moving the vikings is something that's iffy but it can be written off as just another decision due to the earlier banshee harass.
@10:45 this is completely normal. Just click on the minimap to send them to the watchtower and deselect them.
@11:02 same deal at the camera block at 9:11.
Game 1: Nothing really conclusive.
On June 05 2012 04:22 drolets wrote:
Game 2: Entombed Valley
2:14 He sends the SCV without looking at where he's sending it and the camera gets blocked for 4 secs. However, he doesn't even look at LucifroN's base when the SCV reach it.
6:00 Even if he didn't even watch it, on the minimap you can see LucifroN had a gas, he had done the EXACT same openning as on game 1, however Spades doesn't make bay, neither raven, he goes directly for a viking and waste ALL his energy on a mule, as if he knew 100% sure cloack banshees weren't comming (weird as he didn't even scan).
7:47 Notice how he sieges the tanks on the EXACT position for not being shot by the bunker
13:42 LucifroN advances 2 marines to kill Spades marine at the right of the map, would be obvious to think that LucifroN's army is comming behind, however spades doesn't move his army for about 30 sec.
14:10 LucifroN's army is getting out of his base to that spot, Spades doesn't see ANYTHING, but he sieges his tanks right in the elevation and move his marines out of his base and puts them next to the spot LucifroN is going.
20:30 first scan to LucifroN's base in the whole game!! Spots all his army and the third cc
@2:14 completely normal to send a scout with the minimap. as for not looking it just seems as though he wasn’t watching it and didn’t realize until after it was out of the base and he knew he wouldn’t be able to get back in. Simple mistake.
@6:00 seems a little fishy to me but again i can’t really comment because i don’t really know terran strategy.
@7:47 those are completely reasonable places for spades to seige the bottom of the ramp. don’t really see how this is evidence
@13:42 That lane is used for sneak attacks so your opponent doesn’t expect it. Spades looked and saw that there were only 2 marines there. Personally I would just think that LucifroN was just clearing it out to gain himself vision of that pass.
@20:30 The lack of scans is slightly suspicious but if you look at how much knowledge he had been getting through the midgame due to engagments it seems reasonable. The scan location is not suspicious at all.
Game 2 nothing conclusive.
On June 05 2012 04:22 drolets wrote:
Game 3: Shakuras Plateau
3:55 He sends out 4 SCVS to his natural, WITHOUT having seen the marine, and WITHOUT having scouted.
5:08 Most accurate scan ever, however, he doesn't even select the barracks to see what building it is, and he doesn't even look at the third cc.
15:05 Would be obvious to think LucifroN has the mid control, but he moves his tanks to the xel'naga without any kind of fear.
16:20 Look how he watches whole LucifroN's army, just in the border of the fog of war.
20:05 He moves all his marines to the spot where LucifroN is going to attack, eventhough he isn't controlling the xel'naga and he doesn't know if he's gonna come that way.
@3:55 His cc is almost done and it’s pretty standard to move workers to the expansion to hold any sort of super early agression.
@5:08 He was more looking at how the natural was progressing he can tell that the 3rd cc is what it is based on the size on the minimap. barracks is irrelevant.
@15:05 This is a bit suspicious. But not really concrete evidence.
@16:20 I don’t see anything suspicious about this.
@20:05 The scans that came down from lucifron suggested that he was looking at attacking the upper side. pretty simple reaction.
Game 3 nothing really conclusive
I'll just post this now and I'll edit in the rest as I look at the replays
|
On June 05 2012 07:21 Glon wrote:
This actually explains why on Chanman's Pro Corner show Spades 9-0'd Slush and Vibe, where before he could barely beat them. It also explains his poor MLG results and overall LAN results (especially compared to his online results)
There are lot of players that do really well online and then play awfull in LAN. Just watch Nerchio he is a beast online but in LANs he is not as good.
U cant use his results at MLG cause MLG have really top level players. He recognizes that LucifroN is better than him, so u really expect Spades to do well against koreans and top foreigners? Because LucifroN (at the moment) is only well known in EU
|
On June 05 2012 06:59 VPFaith wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:56 mTwTT1 wrote:On June 05 2012 06:55 ][Primarch][ wrote:On June 05 2012 06:42 MuseMike wrote:
Where is Lead Detective Payam "TT1" Toghyan when you need him. He is busy playing D3 and if he is doing anything SC2 related then he is losing on ladder and blaming it on D3 (no GG and leave style:D) too busy being mad at myself for being bad at sc2 ^_^ TT1 just lost a game to Avilo. LMFAO
What is this shit?
Not only are a bunch of people, most of which have no understanding of high level TvT, bash Spades based off accusations from some random guy. Now you are bashing avilo too ??
And this in response to a post by a confirmed maphacker in TT1.
Anyone else who finds this ironic ?
Avilo just won an online qualifier and won himself a plane ticket to a big tournament.
What have you achieved lately ?
It is sad that you can get away with such a post. If i made a post like that I would be insta-banned, but you being a "big name" in the community apparently gives you the right to freely bash avilo who for some reason is hated by a lot of people in the community.
The guy is really good, and has consistently been a pioneer in developing new terran strategies.
User was warned for this post
edit: lol
|
is it just me or does the OP not know what a 'camera block' is? from my understanding it is when the camera stands still and the player is doing absolutely nothing right? because i went to the camera block at 9:11 on antiga shipyard only to find out that he was tabbing through his hotkeys constantly during that time whilst watching his main mineral line.
it annoys me that people just complain hacker when ever something slightly conspicuous happens.
|
On June 05 2012 06:36 Aunvilgod wrote:
Luckily this is not someone big. No Savior.
I am only gold but 9 seconds not moving your screen at GM level? I mainly watch korean streams but I can´t imagine anyone doing nothing for such a long time.
you dont have to move your camera if you are giving commands to scvs, buildings. Look that he was selecting scvs to build depo, and making something with starport and barracks he couldnt look, at lucifron base at the same time
half of evidences in first post of this thread are bullshit, rest of them is interesting but there was so many drops he missed that idk
|
On June 05 2012 07:24 RolleMcKnolle wrote:
oh man, people calm down. As long as there are no additional replays and solid proof he's good. this is destroying a career if it continues. this is something that has no place in a forum but at the table of an independent instance. People will always turn into a mob, given the chance. I hope you didn't cheat spades and if you did you probably won't do it again :D
He already cheated in BW, I think if this was any other person there would be more naysayers. I'm not saying he is guilty or innocent, but the fact remains that he has cheated in the past.
|
On June 05 2012 06:18 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:16 Gardel wrote:On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim. Ey man, if you know you really did not hack, then why quit? I know your image will be affected but, you gotta move on there are good days and bad days in life. If you are honest withyourself and to the community, then you should not let this affect you. I'm trying to make a career of this, If people think im a cheater, they wont watch me, they wont get lessons from me. I wont get invites. Shit like this tarnishes you, how am i supposed to make money, Next time I do well in something, they will just call me a cheater again. I dealt with this in Broodwar I know how the community is. Unless someone magically makes a program to ACTUALLY DETECT HACKS, i will never been actually proven innocent. I wish this was BW days and they had the hack scanner tt.
Like someone before me said, post all your replays.
|
the more i think about it and rewatch the replays i think it was only luck and metagaming + some bad decisions by spades.
If you guess enough you will eventually be right, in my opinion thats what happened right here.
Its like all those SHows trying to show someone has supernatural mind tricks by letting him show a sign whenever a person behind a wall looks at him (him standing with his back to the person)
Well OMG he gave a sign allmost everytime he was looked at?
When in reality he was just giving signs all the time so he would eventually be right.
|
I'm going to *try* to share some unbiased information about what I saw at the games. My understanding of the way that the hack works, is that if you move your camera to a place that you don't have vision, then it will hold the camera at the last place you did have vision.
So if someone were to do this, it would show their camera scroll to the edge of their vision, then stop because it detects that there is no vision at the area.
Unfortunately for you citizens of Salem, this does not happen in the games. All of the 'camera blocks' are in the middle of his base. So that means he would have to location hotkey the area, and then hotkey back to his base. All of the places that he would have to look, and the locations in his base would make it very difficult to manage all of this.
Now some people will still think that he is cheating, and spending a ton of effort trying to cover his tracks. But however, there not only a lack of evidence that he is cheating, but there is evidence showing him doing things that would be impossible if he had camera hacks on.
For example, he does scroll to areas that he does not have vision of. The hack program would prevent this if he had it on. The most clear times are when he lands a third expansion, he scrolls over to an area that he doesn't have vision of, and then lands the building.
I'm not saying that he 100% isn't doing anything fishy. But the explanation originally proposed does not hold up, and should not be reason to get so angry at a player. He may still be maphacking and doing something else to cover it up. He could also be magically enchanting all the replays to not show evidence either. Or he could just play slightly different than the majority of pros, and have gotten lucky in some of his decisions.
|
the blind scan on shakuras is really strange.. i cant come up with any way spades would know lucifron had spawned there.
|
On June 05 2012 07:18 Gheed wrote:
Oh, by the way the tool who posted this on reddit condemned Spades as having been "officially" caught maphacking. Then, when someone suggested he changes the title, he called him a "stupid chink," and then another person a "retard." (http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/ukokn/spades_officially_outed_as_first_sc2_pro_caught/c4w8mes?context=3)
My disdain for the SC2 community has been reaffirmed. We've let a person with 1 post on TL and a random reddit troll shit all over someone's career. Good show everyone.
whatever
the way he's handling it doesn't make him look so good either. if the accusations weren't solid a month from now no one will remember this and his career would be fine
meanwhile in my experience lurking TL all these years, most of the time when someone goes to this extreme depth to out a map hacker, either it's pretty unanimous that there's no evidence of hacking, or consensus is split, a long flamewar ensues, then irrefutable evidence finally shows up a few months later
currently it seems like consensus is split, so that does not bode so well for him
|
MODs, where are you? aren't you supposed to be correcting the OP with illusions/incontrols/spades statements to pose the argument. If you aren't going to present any other arguments than the OPs, I suggest you close the thread because no-one is going to read 30 pages of this.
|
On June 05 2012 07:23 speknek wrote:
Just a thought for people with a lot of time :p one could watch his stream vods and compare his streamed play vs these replays. Does he randomly stare at his base for 10sec? Does he not look at his scouting scv? etc
He wasn't staring at his base. He was macroing. He went through all his buildings, started an upgrade, started depos and I believe started workers. If he can macro like that while also moving his camera over the opponent and checking his shit, he is a god and wouldn't even need to cheat.
It's incredible how little proof people need to show for everyone to go crazy... :/
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
