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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 06:49 SpecialistSc wrote:
Is there a 100% way to prove he hacks?
If not, people shouldn't judge so quickly as to say he hacked. It's his career at stake after all. Give the guy a benefit of doubt etc.
I don't know a whole lot about hacking but seeing how there wasn't any mention of a solid 100% proof after over 10 pages of TL I'd assume that there isn't a proof method.
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Why pros aren't required to record fpvods of the games in big online tournaments ?
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On June 05 2012 06:40 Xadar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:39 marconi wrote:
I'm surprised that the admins actually allowed for a 1 post account to post something like this and leave it unlocked. it doesnt mean ANYTHING that OP has only 1 post. look at the content, not the post number -.-
1 is the lowest number of posts someone can have on TL and be a member(unless you're some creeper sending only PMs). Personally, it makes it pretty clear that it is a smurf account who did not want to use their main to call out a player on hacking. That carries a lot of weight with me, since I think people should stand behind what they ways or accuse people of.
Also, when we am considering if someone is a cheater, it is best that for everyone to consider where the information is coming from. If we do not know, we should that into account as well. I don't know Spades, but hacking is a hot button issue right now and I don't like mob justice. I would rather the mods close the thread and review the matter internally, rather than let the mob decide.
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On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over...
Seriously Incontrol, you come into this thread with nothing and post that? Just trying to burn him more? He was a hacker in BW he has enough shit smeared without you waltzing in with zero evidence other than "fishy play". If you're calling him out then nut up and call him out, enough with the passive aggressive BS just fanning the flames here man.
How about we wait until there is some actual solid proof?
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On June 05 2012 06:50 mememolly wrote:
the camera blocks are brutal, is there any evidence of pros doing this on the regular like Spades does?
This is the thing that worries me. I never see pros staring at production facilities for 10+ seconds in multiple games.
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On June 05 2012 06:38 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:21 Roxor9999 wrote:On June 05 2012 06:03 rANDY wrote:This is the PM I sent to Antoine regarding this situation: Hello, I decided to watch these games with the intention of finding one non-circumstantial piece of evidence to show if map hacks were being used in order to try and bring some certainty to this situation, as no matter how much circumstantial evidence there is, one cannot use it to convict someone comfortably. I believe I have found some non-circumstantial proof when watching the first replay.
To see this in the replay most clearly, slow the speed right down.
When a terran places a scan using the minimap it will take his camera instanylu to that position with the scan circle centred on the screen.
At 6:23 of game 1 on Antigua Shipyard, when Spades scans Lucifron's base his camera jumps to where the scan is, but the scan is off-center but to the top part of the screen. The only way this is possible is if he was already looking at this area and placed the scan manually not using the mini map and did not click the center of the screen. The only way this was possible is if the screen was locked on his base while he was looking at the fog. You can see in the replay that the screen moved instantly when he scanned to the off center position from his main.
For completeness, at 13:16 in the same game is an example of Lucifron scanning the center of the map using the mini-map. His screen jumps straight to the scan and the scan is exactly central to the screen (where he clicked on the mini-map).
I believe this shows conculsive proof that Spades' screen was locked while viewing Lucifron's base and was therefore using a maphack. This is not true. http://drop.sc/191482 Note though that there is a significant different in camera pan reaction speed, among other things (I was watching at the slowest speed). At the same time the location offset is also significantly different. Hmm.... I"m not quite sure even. I'm going to go ahead with the testing. Won't be coming to any conclusions prematurely though.
Tested it a bit, not going to bother with the video, this is just a minimap scan followed by click or camera hotkey.
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Guilty or not guilty, there are WAY too many people in this thread that are acting like he is guilty without real proof. Either way, his reputation will take a pretty big hit (regardless of the fact that he hacked in BW).
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On June 05 2012 06:49 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:47 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 05 2012 06:45 IntoTheheart wrote:On June 05 2012 06:43 Grampz wrote:
Come on man this is how you respond to criticism? By giving up? Wow. Teams really love that in a player...
If you don't hack, fucking prove it. Go out there, rape ladder and events, and people will start to believe you don't. You are right there is NO way to prove you don't. Except at Offline events.
You can hack while playing ladder and online events and last I checked Spades (no offence if you're reading this) wasn't known to be beastial enough to get a solid enough run at Offline events for anyone to reasonably say "well this guy doesn't hack." Well isnt that strange then that he surdenly playes well vs one of the best players in EU? Maybe he's streaky. As he explained earlier, he watched the Zain vs Lucifron games earlier and used that. We can't know whether or not he's hacking without real proof either way. Think about it this way, if you're playing a ZvZ and know that your opponent can't hold out against a 6pool very well for whatever reason you'd go for the 6pool if you knew/thought that you couldn't win by any other method right? It makes sense to read your player and if what Spades is saying is true then he made the smart call by watching the games.
To many if etc Lucifron are a top 3 EU player. You dont surdenly play well vs a player who just 4-0 Thorzain and won a major EU lan tournament unless he got a great record.
I could understand this if it was 2 top foriegner players playing but this indeed smells. And if you also look at his past then it just stinks.
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On June 05 2012 06:51 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... Seriously Incontrol, you come into this thread with nothing and post that? Just trying to burn him more? He was a hacker in BW he has enough shit smeared without you waltzing in with zero evidence other than "fishy play". If you're calling him out then nut up and call him out, enough with the passive aggressive BS just fanning the flames here man. How about we wait until there is some actual solid proof?
Solid proof, there will most likely never be any unless there is detection from a third party. Incontrol spoke his mind in a thread relating to what he thought he has come up against.
He didn't state the hacking as fact.
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On June 05 2012 06:49 andReslic wrote:
If I would be spades, I would ignore this, I know I dont hack so I dont give a crap about it,
People that lies falls into traps like this, when they defend themselves about something that shouldn't affect them, if hes that good.
Of course this affects him, this is his reputation , whether he is lying or not he is going to try to defend it.
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On June 05 2012 06:50 zezamer wrote:
Why pros aren't required to record fpvods of the games in big online tournaments ?
This is a really good questions. Or stream it to a non-public stream to be recorded. Anything that makes a recording of exactly what the player sees.
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thats the problem when you allow former hackers to play again ...
no clue if he hacks now but for me i am still for the 1 time hacker always hacker so 1 time caught = lifetimeban
problem are 2 things
fanboys and people who WANT NOT to believe
so you can have 10 second camblocks or more they just ... well they will never believe and so there will be never a "proof" that everyone is accepting ... to bad for the whole scene but such players need to stream for the rest of their life every game like mistrzzz did in sc1 to proof he doesnt cheat
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The only defensive point for Spades is he lost the series.... but the opening reading , camera locks etc... He probably cheated.
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Does anyone know if Spades has responded to this yet?
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On June 05 2012 06:52 MuseMike wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:51 captainwaffles wrote:On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... Seriously Incontrol, you come into this thread with nothing and post that? Just trying to burn him more? He was a hacker in BW he has enough shit smeared without you waltzing in with zero evidence other than "fishy play". If you're calling him out then nut up and call him out, enough with the passive aggressive BS just fanning the flames here man. How about we wait until there is some actual solid proof? Solid proof, there will most likely never be any unless there is detection from a third party. Incontrol spoke his mind in a thread relating to what he thought he has come up against. He didn't state the hacking as fact.
I think incontrol, of all people by now, should realize his word carries some weight around here. So when he comes into a thread and suggests someone might be a hacker, it's obviously going to sway people's opinions.
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On June 05 2012 06:52 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:49 IntoTheheart wrote:On June 05 2012 06:47 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 05 2012 06:45 IntoTheheart wrote:On June 05 2012 06:43 Grampz wrote:
Come on man this is how you respond to criticism? By giving up? Wow. Teams really love that in a player...
If you don't hack, fucking prove it. Go out there, rape ladder and events, and people will start to believe you don't. You are right there is NO way to prove you don't. Except at Offline events.
You can hack while playing ladder and online events and last I checked Spades (no offence if you're reading this) wasn't known to be beastial enough to get a solid enough run at Offline events for anyone to reasonably say "well this guy doesn't hack." Well isnt that strange then that he surdenly playes well vs one of the best players in EU? Maybe he's streaky. As he explained earlier, he watched the Zain vs Lucifron games earlier and used that. We can't know whether or not he's hacking without real proof either way. Think about it this way, if you're playing a ZvZ and know that your opponent can't hold out against a 6pool very well for whatever reason you'd go for the 6pool if you knew/thought that you couldn't win by any other method right? It makes sense to read your player and if what Spades is saying is true then he made the smart call by watching the games. To many if etc Lucifron are a top 3 EU player. You dont surdenly play well vs a player who just 4-0 Thorzain and won a major EU lan tournament unless he got a great record. I could understand this if it was 2 top foriegner players playing but this indeed smells. And if you also look at his past then it just stinks.
Even still, I don't doubt that Lucifron is a cheater and I don't know anything about his past but I mean, there isn't real proof for this either way so the best we can do as human beings in a developed society is to not assume that he's guilty. Like I said, it's impossible to know exactly what was going on in his mind but if Spades has cheated before I won't deny that this looks fishy.
I feel bad for Spades though. This will put a solid dent into his career.
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Guess ill have to play all my matches against your biggest heroes with a camera behind me seeing both my screens. So next time i do okay and still lose against a top player you wont try to destroy my career by making up bullshit.
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On June 05 2012 06:54 Penke wrote:
Does anyone know if Spades has responded to this yet?
Couple of times, look through the pages. 
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EPT
