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On May 12 2012 13:26 Cassel_Castle wrote:
If you just look at ex-WC3 players as a subset of SC2 players, the top players from WC3 are not the best players in SC2. Why do people expect it to be different with BW players?
If Moon, Grubby, Happy, and ToD can't continue to be better than Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, and Naniwa, why should Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork still be better than MVP, MC, NesTea, and MarineKing?
Because WC3 was a much different transition to Sc2. WC3 Macro and micro is wildly different, with the way its income works and the smaller amounts of units overall etc.
Sc2 is different from BW yes. But WC3 is a whole nother universe(Literally and figuratively). The BW pro's switching over are the best of the best RTS players hands down, Sc2 Macro is essentially and easier version of the macro style they have been playing forever. Not saying overall Sc2 is easier, though the fundamentals that separate S class bw pro's from A/B will be somewhat lessened. I personally think the quick decision making excellent game sense and insane multi tasking mixed with the almost built in at this point macro of the BW players will make them very dominant. Of course this is just my opinion, I could be very wrong... only time will tell!
Ps. Can't wait to see Bisu's multi tasking in Sc2!!
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On May 12 2012 13:36 Wonders wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:32 Sinensis wrote:On May 12 2012 13:26 Cassel_Castle wrote:
If you just look at ex-WC3 players as a subset of SC2 players, the top players from WC3 are not the best players in SC2. Why do people expect it to be different with BW players?
If Moon, Grubby, Happy, and ToD can't continue to be better than Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, and Naniwa, why should Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork still be better than MVP, MC, NesTea, and MarineKing? All the Sc2 pros you just named were Brood War B-teamers. They cleaned the toilets in the team house. I think Cassel_Castle is saying that Moon, Grubby, Happy, and Tod are to Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, and Naniwa as Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork are to MVP, MC, NesTea, and MarineKing. I guess the answer is that SC2 is more similar to BW than it is to WC3
Oh so that's what he's talking about... that's a really bad comparison to make.
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On May 12 2012 13:36 Sinensis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:33 Cassel_Castle wrote:On May 12 2012 13:32 Sinensis wrote:On May 12 2012 13:26 Cassel_Castle wrote:
If you just look at ex-WC3 players as a subset of SC2 players, the top players from WC3 are not the best players in SC2. Why do people expect it to be different with BW players?
If Moon, Grubby, Happy, and ToD can't continue to be better than Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, and Naniwa, why should Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork still be better than MVP, MC, NesTea, and MarineKing? All the Sc2 pros you just named were Brood War B-teamers. They cleaned the toilets in the team house. Dude I know that. That's my point. Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, Naniwa, HasuObs, and others rose up from the "toilets" of WC3 to be better than Moon, Grubby, ToD, etc. because it's a completely different game. I don't think you know what your point even was because as far as I can see one hasn't been made.
To put it simply, since analogies are going over heads left and right, if A is better than B at game X, it's not a guarantee he'll be better at game Y.
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Solid tvt win vs a fairly strong Korean GM player, I can't really tell anything more from a 7 min video 
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On May 12 2012 13:32 Siffer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:26 Cassel_Castle wrote:
If you just look at ex-WC3 players as a subset of SC2 players, the top players from WC3 are not the best players in SC2. Why do people expect it to be different with BW players?
If Moon, Grubby, Happy, and ToD can't continue to be better than Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, and Naniwa, why should Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork still be better than MVP, MC, NesTea, and MarineKing? I don't think you understand the amount of training S class BW players go through. There is a HUGE jump between A-teamers and S-Class in BW. In WC3, it was very possible for players like Stephano, Naniwa, etc. to take games off players like Grubby, Moon, etc. That shit just doesn't happen in BW. Believe me, I was very skeptical about BW players crushing current SC2 players; however, after seeing this FPVOD and reading different interviews, it seems inevitable. Within a year, I pretty much guarantee that S class BW players will be demolishing any current SC2 superstar.
That's what we BW fans have been trying to tell you but you all doubted us -.-
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[QUOTE]On May 12 2012 13:33 Cassel_Castle wrote:
[quote]Besides Flash, all of the "bonjwas" had around a 68%-69% win rate in their period of dominance. That's all it took to be considered the best of the best. In 2010 or 11 I think there were only 5 players with a career 60%+ winrate. 5.[/QUOTE]
Why are you bringing in percentages? I never said anything about anyone getting >70% winrate. That is damn near impossible. If you win a bo3 2-1, you are automatically 66%. A 66% winrate (imo) is absolutely amazing. especially when you factor in your break out period and your inevitable slumps.
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On May 12 2012 13:38 SkimGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:32 Siffer wrote:On May 12 2012 13:26 Cassel_Castle wrote:
If you just look at ex-WC3 players as a subset of SC2 players, the top players from WC3 are not the best players in SC2. Why do people expect it to be different with BW players?
If Moon, Grubby, Happy, and ToD can't continue to be better than Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, and Naniwa, why should Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork still be better than MVP, MC, NesTea, and MarineKing? I don't think you understand the amount of training S class BW players go through. There is a HUGE jump between A-teamers and S-Class in BW. In WC3, it was very possible for players like Stephano, Naniwa, etc. to take games off players like Grubby, Moon, etc. That shit just doesn't happen in BW. Believe me, I was very skeptical about BW players crushing current SC2 players; however, after seeing this FPVOD and reading different interviews, it seems inevitable. Within a year, I pretty much guarantee that S class BW players will be demolishing any current SC2 superstar. That's what we BW fans have been trying to tell you but you all doubted us -.-
Get our S class gods to shit all over your game for stealing our game? Sounds fair 
TBLS gonna dominate sc2 for all the bw fans
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lol Flash doesn't even use head phones or sound in both of those games.
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On May 12 2012 13:38 SkimGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:32 Siffer wrote:On May 12 2012 13:26 Cassel_Castle wrote:
If you just look at ex-WC3 players as a subset of SC2 players, the top players from WC3 are not the best players in SC2. Why do people expect it to be different with BW players?
If Moon, Grubby, Happy, and ToD can't continue to be better than Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, and Naniwa, why should Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork still be better than MVP, MC, NesTea, and MarineKing? I don't think you understand the amount of training S class BW players go through. There is a HUGE jump between A-teamers and S-Class in BW. In WC3, it was very possible for players like Stephano, Naniwa, etc. to take games off players like Grubby, Moon, etc. That shit just doesn't happen in BW. Believe me, I was very skeptical about BW players crushing current SC2 players; however, after seeing this FPVOD and reading different interviews, it seems inevitable. Within a year, I pretty much guarantee that S class BW players will be demolishing any current SC2 superstar. That's what alot of BW fans have been trying to tell you but some SC 2 fans doubted us -.-
Bolded for correctness 
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On May 12 2012 13:38 SkimGuy wrote:
That's what we BW fans have been trying to tell you but you all doubted us -.-
Hey now, I have never questioned the work ethic of an S-Class BW player; however, I will admit that I was very skeptical because BW and SC2 are completely different games. This is the first time I have seen an in shape S-Class player play SC2. I can now say that the skill-set transitions exceedingly well.
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On May 12 2012 13:26 Cassel_Castle wrote:
If you just look at ex-WC3 players as a subset of SC2 players, the top players from WC3 are not the best players in SC2. Why do people expect it to be different with BW players?
If Moon, Grubby, Happy, and ToD can't continue to be better than Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, and Naniwa, why should Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork still be better than MVP, MC, NesTea, and MarineKing?
what a knowledgeable guy you are, quoting Stephano as a non-TFT player, lawl
as for what you're stating, it's been perfectly answered to already.
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On May 12 2012 13:33 Cassel_Castle wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 13:32 Sinensis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:26 Cassel_Castle wrote:
If you just look at ex-WC3 players as a subset of SC2 players, the top players from WC3 are not the best players in SC2. Why do people expect it to be different with BW players?
If Moon, Grubby, Happy, and ToD can't continue to be better than Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, and Naniwa, why should Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork still be better than MVP, MC, NesTea, and MarineKing? All the Sc2 pros you just named were Brood War B-teamers. They cleaned the toilets in the team house. Dude I know that. That's my point. Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, Naniwa, HasuObs, and others rose up from the "toilets" of WC3 to be better than Moon, Grubby, ToD, etc. because it's a completely different game.In WC3, it was very possible for players like Stephano, Naniwa, etc. to take games off players like Grubby, Moon, etc. That shit just doesn't happen in BW. Are you kidding? MVP beat Flash. MC beat Effort. Even Idra, who was way below the levels of everyone else, took practice games off of A-teamers. BW was way more volatile than people remember, no one could maintain a 70%+ winrate in BW just like no one can maintain it in SC2. Besides Flash, all of the "bonjwas" had around a 68%-69% win rate in their period of dominance. That's all it took to be considered the best of the best. In 2010 or 11 I think there were only 5 players with a career 60%+ winrate. 5.
Okay enough with you during Flash's dominant period he had closer to a 90% win rate with win streaks 10 games and longer. He had a 22 game win streak in TvT. He had a 13 game win streak PvT. He had a 14 game win streak vs all races.
Your facts are wrong.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On May 12 2012 13:48 Sinensis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:33 Cassel_Castle wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 13:32 Sinensis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:26 Cassel_Castle wrote:
If you just look at ex-WC3 players as a subset of SC2 players, the top players from WC3 are not the best players in SC2. Why do people expect it to be different with BW players?
If Moon, Grubby, Happy, and ToD can't continue to be better than Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, and Naniwa, why should Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork still be better than MVP, MC, NesTea, and MarineKing? All the Sc2 pros you just named were Brood War B-teamers. They cleaned the toilets in the team house. Dude I know that. That's my point. Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, Naniwa, HasuObs, and others rose up from the "toilets" of WC3 to be better than Moon, Grubby, ToD, etc. because it's a completely different game.In WC3, it was very possible for players like Stephano, Naniwa, etc. to take games off players like Grubby, Moon, etc. That shit just doesn't happen in BW. Are you kidding? MVP beat Flash. MC beat Effort. Even Idra, who was way below the levels of everyone else, took practice games off of A-teamers. BW was way more volatile than people remember, no one could maintain a 70%+ winrate in BW just like no one can maintain it in SC2. Besides Flash, all of the "bonjwas" had around a 68%-69% win rate in their period of dominance. That's all it took to be considered the best of the best. In 2010 or 11 I think there were only 5 players with a career 60%+ winrate. 5. Okay enough with you during Flash's dominant period he had closer to a 90% win rate with win streaks 10 games and longer. He had a 22 game win streak in TvT. He had a 13 game win streak PvT. He had a 14 game win streak vs all races. Your facts are wrong.
And he had 100% winrate last proleague until he had two losses to Dear and Stardust (M18M) Apparently, reavers are OP.
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On May 12 2012 13:48 Sinensis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:33 Cassel_Castle wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 13:32 Sinensis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:26 Cassel_Castle wrote:
If you just look at ex-WC3 players as a subset of SC2 players, the top players from WC3 are not the best players in SC2. Why do people expect it to be different with BW players?
If Moon, Grubby, Happy, and ToD can't continue to be better than Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, and Naniwa, why should Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork still be better than MVP, MC, NesTea, and MarineKing? All the Sc2 pros you just named were Brood War B-teamers. They cleaned the toilets in the team house. Dude I know that. That's my point. Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, Naniwa, HasuObs, and others rose up from the "toilets" of WC3 to be better than Moon, Grubby, ToD, etc. because it's a completely different game.In WC3, it was very possible for players like Stephano, Naniwa, etc. to take games off players like Grubby, Moon, etc. That shit just doesn't happen in BW. Are you kidding? MVP beat Flash. MC beat Effort. Even Idra, who was way below the levels of everyone else, took practice games off of A-teamers. BW was way more volatile than people remember, no one could maintain a 70%+ winrate in BW just like no one can maintain it in SC2. Besides Flash, all of the "bonjwas" had around a 68%-69% win rate in their period of dominance. That's all it took to be considered the best of the best. In 2010 or 11 I think there were only 5 players with a career 60%+ winrate. 5. Okay enough with you during Flash's dominant period he had closer to a 90% win rate with win streaks 10 games and longer. He had a 22 game win streak in TvT. He had a 13 game win streak PvT. He had a 14 game win streak vs all races. Your facts are wrong.
I've been right in everything I've said, but no one is reading my posts properly.
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On May 12 2012 13:51 amazingxkcd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:48 Sinensis wrote:On May 12 2012 13:33 Cassel_Castle wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 13:32 Sinensis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:26 Cassel_Castle wrote:
If you just look at ex-WC3 players as a subset of SC2 players, the top players from WC3 are not the best players in SC2. Why do people expect it to be different with BW players?
If Moon, Grubby, Happy, and ToD can't continue to be better than Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, and Naniwa, why should Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork still be better than MVP, MC, NesTea, and MarineKing? All the Sc2 pros you just named were Brood War B-teamers. They cleaned the toilets in the team house. Dude I know that. That's my point. Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, Naniwa, HasuObs, and others rose up from the "toilets" of WC3 to be better than Moon, Grubby, ToD, etc. because it's a completely different game.In WC3, it was very possible for players like Stephano, Naniwa, etc. to take games off players like Grubby, Moon, etc. That shit just doesn't happen in BW. Are you kidding? MVP beat Flash. MC beat Effort. Even Idra, who was way below the levels of everyone else, took practice games off of A-teamers. BW was way more volatile than people remember, no one could maintain a 70%+ winrate in BW just like no one can maintain it in SC2. Besides Flash, all of the "bonjwas" had around a 68%-69% win rate in their period of dominance. That's all it took to be considered the best of the best. In 2010 or 11 I think there were only 5 players with a career 60%+ winrate. 5. Okay enough with you during Flash's dominant period he had closer to a 90% win rate with win streaks 10 games and longer. He had a 22 game win streak in TvT. He had a 13 game win streak PvT. He had a 14 game win streak vs all races. Your facts are wrong. And he had 100% winrate last proleague until he had two losses to Dear and Stardust (M18M) Apparently, reavers are OP.
More like cancelling your turret is OP.
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so gross how like 95% of his moves are like on point to what hes trying to do, u can see even at his speed he barely wastes a lot of actions
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On May 12 2012 13:33 Cassel_Castle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:32 Sinensis wrote:On May 12 2012 13:26 Cassel_Castle wrote:
If you just look at ex-WC3 players as a subset of SC2 players, the top players from WC3 are not the best players in SC2. Why do people expect it to be different with BW players?
If Moon, Grubby, Happy, and ToD can't continue to be better than Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, and Naniwa, why should Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork still be better than MVP, MC, NesTea, and MarineKing? All the Sc2 pros you just named were Brood War B-teamers. They cleaned the toilets in the team house. Dude I know that. That's my point. Thorzain, Polt, Stephano, Naniwa, HasuObs, and others rose up from the "toilets" of WC3 to be better than Moon, Grubby, ToD, etc. because it's a completely different game.Show nested quote +In WC3, it was very possible for players like Stephano, Naniwa, etc. to take games off players like Grubby, Moon, etc. That shit just doesn't happen in BW. Are you kidding? MVP beat Flash. MC beat Effort. Even Idra, who was way below the levels of everyone else, took practice games off of A-teamers. BW was way more volatile than people remember, no one could maintain a 70%+ winrate in BW just like no one can maintain it in SC2. Besides Flash, all of the "bonjwas" had around a 68%-69% win rate in their period of dominance. That's all it took to be considered the best of the best. In 2010 or 11 I think there were only 5 players with a career 60%+ winrate. 5.
For the record Flash did have an 80% winrate in his best season in around 150 games. Not against B-teamers but some of the best players who usually had much more time to prepare than him.
edit: To clarify, most people couldn't maintain 70% because they just weren't that much better than their opponents, so they often lost legitimate games.
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The videos are private wth.
Edit: Now they're removed T___T God this sucks I feel like i missed them by a just a few minutes.
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Yeah private video? I wanted to watch =(
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Why is everyone "correcting" me and saying Flash had an 80-90% win rate? Where did I say that wasn't true.
FFS I'm done with the internet fuck life killingself
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EPT
