|
On August 17 2011 09:52 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 09:11 latan wrote:
first day playing protoss, i expected to drop down to silver but i've been rolling zergs so far. first day playing zerg, I lost all 5 placement matches. I played terran exclusively in brood war until the last year of it and then went all zerg. played since SC1 before brood war expo. And yet lost 5 placements and my first two bronze matches. ofc, once I started winning I hit gold in 3 days and plat in a week.
I have played in all 3 seasons, that was kind of my anecdote, if it can be called that, season 1 i played terran, 2nd as zerg and in this one i'll try to learn protoss. I'm struggling, but i found it interesting that i was able to beat plat zergs the first day i switched to protoss. with zerg it took me a while to get comfortable with the race (dropped from diamond to silver) but i got to a point where i won a big majority of my ZvZs and ZvTs but ZvP was sort of impossible. so naturally i expected a huge drop with protoss but it didin't happen (so far, but im sure i will).
|
re: Infestor FG too strong
At the moment consecutive fungals are the true problem, because 1 fungal does not kill any full hp unit. The problem is that if the first fungal hits, the second is guaranteed to land.
So I propose the following change for discussion:
Any fungal cast on a unit already afflicted by fungal growth does not restart the duration and is essentially wasted.
This would require good timing and micro to hit the followup fungal without wasting it. Also the fungal duration is 4 seconds - same as the time tanks need to siege. Thus if infestors have to stick around for 4 seconds for the followup, they can get shelled as opposed to casting - casting again after 2.5-3 seconds and getting out just in time.
Though this change might require fungal set blink on cooldown.
|
Something that just sort of frustrates me about the game in general is that there's a lot of "Well nothing you can do now..." kind of situations.
-Fungal Growth stops your units cold, so you just stare at them and spam right click, hoping you can run away
-Once a Protoss lands some good Force Fields, you tend to be stuck and you largely just have to wait. There's some exceptions to this, such as burrow movement and lifting units out with Medivacs.
|
Ugg well hopefully this thread goes good, but i forsee it getting shutdown after a couple days but because i've been thinking about this a lot ill put in my 2 cents.
So, right now there are a lot of Talks about Mech + Ghost TvZ, And as a GM Terran, i feel that this could be very terran favored. Not because of the Composition or really Ghost. Ghost vs Infestor battles seem to be even. But really i thnink the problem with the composition is how easy it is to do insane amounts of damage with BLueflame hellions while being able to get your Mech ball up.
Also the ghost is fine, but i don't know how i feel that it counters almost every unit cost for cost. I think Ultra's need to be more effective against Ghost play otherwise we will never see ultra's used again.
I personally think that Ultra's need some kind of buff (maybe no magic spells or something) because Ghost i beleive should counter Broodlords, but... they deal with late game Broodlord into Ultra transitions too easy and 10 ghost with full energy beat 15 ultras with 3-5 with just snipes alone.
Nerfing the ghost in almost anyway would probably just Reverse the order. And i think that hellions probably need a look at, not necessarily imbalanced but they are very strong and hard to deal with as Zerg, but i dont know thats my 2 cents.
|
On August 16 2011 07:07 Xenogears wrote:
Techno I entirely agree with you on TvP MU, you have to be really skilled to "make it happen" when Protosses mostly don't have much to do.
I know the game is balanced at high level, but it is really frustrating for low master / high diamond like myself to lose so badly when the "terran magic" does not happen.
Even more frustrating when there is no magic needed from the protoss...
Took someone a long time to break the rules and go into balance whine....
|
I don't think there is a HUGE imbalance. (Otherwise we would have like 30% win rates in some matchups and that's obviously not happening), however, just like in chess, there are certain strategies which are only thinly explored and thus it appears to be imbalanced. I still think that given time, zerg's would have begun to use infestors against the protoss death ball. The buff just made it happen a little faster.
What I do think is true is that there are certain unit combinations which are very difficult to deal with at specific timings. For example, in ZvT, roaches tend to be a bad unit overall for zerg, so they have forgone using them in the early game. Terrans noticed this and have started to mass blue flame hellions. Usually a zerg will make a roach den if they suspect the heavy pressure of blue flame hellions, but since it's hard to scout, the zerg has to guess half the time based on assumptions or a very small amount of information. I think the solution isn't to nerf the blue flame hellion, but rather give zerg a viable scouting solution in the early/mid game.
However, in pvt, the 1-1-1 build presents a completely different problem. The 1-1-1 is very scoutable, however, even if scouted properly, there is no way (yet discovered) for protoss to punish it. There are possible tactics that a protoss can use in order to win, however, as a strategy as a whole, relying on micro intensive tactics will hurt in the long run. The problem in this case, is the combination of marines (good anti-air), tanks (good anti-ground), and banshees (a unit which forces a response). Beacuse of marines, it is very difficult to do mass air play, but because of banshees, you can't just make 4 immortals and win either, and the tanks make zealot stalker play autolose.
For this one, I don't think scouting is the problem, I think the problem is the lack of a good air to ground unit that isn't super susceptible to marines. Imagine if void rays still had 7 range. 1-1-1 wouldn't even matter since 2-3 void rays and all of a sudden you can outrange the marines and kite em forever while denying banshees free reign. Tanks would have to be placed further back which gives more space for a flank from zealots or blink stalkers. Void rays were nerfed from 7 to 6 mostly because void ray harass was super effective, however, on the highest level, there wasn't enough time to figure out if void rays were truly imbalanced.
So my thoughts on changes.
1. Give zerg some sort of scouting buff early, but without making them too powerful. Not sure what this is at this point, but that's the idea
2. Give void rays 7 range again. Now the 1-1-1 is a joke build and protoss can safely expand once again.
|
On August 17 2011 16:09 GoKu` wrote:
Ugg well hopefully this thread goes good, but i forsee it getting shutdown after a couple days but because i've been thinking about this a lot ill put in my 2 cents.
So, right now there are a lot of Talks about Mech + Ghost TvZ, And as a GM Terran, i feel that this could be very terran favored. Not because of the Composition or really Ghost. Ghost vs Infestor battles seem to be even. But really i thnink the problem with the composition is how easy it is to do insane amounts of damage with BLueflame hellions while being able to get your Mech ball up.
Also the ghost is fine, but i don't know how i feel that it counters almost every unit cost for cost. I think Ultra's need to be more effective against Ghost play otherwise we will never see ultra's used again.
I personally think that Ultra's need some kind of buff (maybe no magic spells or something) because Ghost i beleive should counter Broodlords, but... they deal with late game Broodlord into Ultra transitions too easy and 10 ghost with full energy beat 15 ultras with 3-5 with just snipes alone.
Nerfing the ghost in almost anyway would probably just Reverse the order. And i think that hellions probably need a look at, not necessarily imbalanced but they are very strong and hard to deal with as Zerg, but i dont know thats my 2 cents.
nice to see some high level input in this thread, and i appreciate your objective analysis.
|
On August 17 2011 16:16 darmousseh wrote:
I don't think there is a HUGE imbalance. (Otherwise we would have like 30% win rates in some matchups and that's obviously not happening), however, just like in chess, there are certain strategies which are only thinly explored and thus it appears to be imbalanced. I still think that given time, zerg's would have begun to use infestors against the protoss death ball. The buff just made it happen a little faster.
What I do think is true is that there are certain unit combinations which are very difficult to deal with at specific timings. For example, in ZvT, roaches tend to be a bad unit overall for zerg, so they have forgone using them in the early game. Terrans noticed this and have started to mass blue flame hellions. Usually a zerg will make a roach den if they suspect the heavy pressure of blue flame hellions, but since it's hard to scout, the zerg has to guess half the time based on assumptions or a very small amount of information. I think the solution isn't to nerf the blue flame hellion, but rather give zerg a viable scouting solution in the early/mid game.
However, in pvt, the 1-1-1 build presents a completely different problem. The 1-1-1 is very scoutable, however, even if scouted properly, there is no way (yet discovered) for protoss to punish it. There are possible tactics that a protoss can use in order to win, however, as a strategy as a whole, relying on micro intensive tactics will hurt in the long run. The problem in this case, is the combination of marines (good anti-air), tanks (good anti-ground), and banshees (a unit which forces a response). Beacuse of marines, it is very difficult to do mass air play, but because of banshees, you can't just make 4 immortals and win either, and the tanks make zealot stalker play autolose.
For this one, I don't think scouting is the problem, I think the problem is the lack of a good air to ground unit that isn't super susceptible to marines. Imagine if void rays still had 7 range. 1-1-1 wouldn't even matter since 2-3 void rays and all of a sudden you can outrange the marines and kite em forever while denying banshees free reign. Tanks would have to be placed further back which gives more space for a flank from zealots or blink stalkers. Void rays were nerfed from 7 to 6 mostly because void ray harass was super effective, however, on the highest level, there wasn't enough time to figure out if void rays were truly imbalanced.
So my thoughts on changes.
1. Give zerg some sort of scouting buff early, but without making them too powerful. Not sure what this is at this point, but that's the idea
2. Give void rays 7 range again. Now the 1-1-1 is a joke build and protoss can safely expand once again.
Hmm, tbh I (diamond toss) don't think a VR buff would help countering the 111 build.
There is NO WAY you could pump out 2-3 voids off 1 base and not be all in yourself, AND you still die to cloakshees.
The solution needs to be robo based, because there is always the threat of the terran getting cloak and letting banshees rule.
TBH I think the big problem with the 111 is how a T can still pump marines constantly while teching to siege tech AND banshee. This is because of the reactor.
The marine is a good counter to both phoenix and immortal, two of the most reasonable tech solutions to solving the 111. This is the essential problem, along with the threat of cloakshees.
|
|
|
On August 17 2011 17:34 PeggyHill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:16 darmousseh wrote:
I don't think there is a HUGE imbalance. (Otherwise we would have like 30% win rates in some matchups and that's obviously not happening), however, just like in chess, there are certain strategies which are only thinly explored and thus it appears to be imbalanced. I still think that given time, zerg's would have begun to use infestors against the protoss death ball. The buff just made it happen a little faster.
What I do think is true is that there are certain unit combinations which are very difficult to deal with at specific timings. For example, in ZvT, roaches tend to be a bad unit overall for zerg, so they have forgone using them in the early game. Terrans noticed this and have started to mass blue flame hellions. Usually a zerg will make a roach den if they suspect the heavy pressure of blue flame hellions, but since it's hard to scout, the zerg has to guess half the time based on assumptions or a very small amount of information. I think the solution isn't to nerf the blue flame hellion, but rather give zerg a viable scouting solution in the early/mid game.
However, in pvt, the 1-1-1 build presents a completely different problem. The 1-1-1 is very scoutable, however, even if scouted properly, there is no way (yet discovered) for protoss to punish it. There are possible tactics that a protoss can use in order to win, however, as a strategy as a whole, relying on micro intensive tactics will hurt in the long run. The problem in this case, is the combination of marines (good anti-air), tanks (good anti-ground), and banshees (a unit which forces a response). Beacuse of marines, it is very difficult to do mass air play, but because of banshees, you can't just make 4 immortals and win either, and the tanks make zealot stalker play autolose.
For this one, I don't think scouting is the problem, I think the problem is the lack of a good air to ground unit that isn't super susceptible to marines. Imagine if void rays still had 7 range. 1-1-1 wouldn't even matter since 2-3 void rays and all of a sudden you can outrange the marines and kite em forever while denying banshees free reign. Tanks would have to be placed further back which gives more space for a flank from zealots or blink stalkers. Void rays were nerfed from 7 to 6 mostly because void ray harass was super effective, however, on the highest level, there wasn't enough time to figure out if void rays were truly imbalanced.
So my thoughts on changes.
1. Give zerg some sort of scouting buff early, but without making them too powerful. Not sure what this is at this point, but that's the idea
2. Give void rays 7 range again. Now the 1-1-1 is a joke build and protoss can safely expand once again.
Hmm, tbh I (diamond toss) don't think a VR buff would help countering the 111 build. There is NO WAY you could pump out 2-3 voids off 1 base and not be all in yourself, AND you still die to cloakshees. The solution needs to be robo based, because there is always the threat of the terran getting cloak and letting banshees rule. TBH I think the big problem with the 111 is how a T can still pump marines constantly while teching to siege tech AND banshee. This is because of the reactor. The marine is a good counter to both phoenix and immortal, two of the most reasonable tech solutions to solving the 111. This is the essential problem, along with the threat of cloakshees.
I do agree. I dont think the problem with the 1/1/1 all in is that protoss cannot expand, I believe the problem is that protoss are dependent upon the metagame and makes a fast expand without scouting, i.e. their builds right now are often a bit too greedy.
I have most trouble getting my all in to work when protoss goes 2 or 3 gate/robo and scouts my build, use their stalkers to harass my advancement over the map and engage me aggressivly before i can siege up.
|
On August 17 2011 19:06 Krede wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:34 PeggyHill wrote:On August 17 2011 16:16 darmousseh wrote:
I don't think there is a HUGE imbalance. (Otherwise we would have like 30% win rates in some matchups and that's obviously not happening), however, just like in chess, there are certain strategies which are only thinly explored and thus it appears to be imbalanced. I still think that given time, zerg's would have begun to use infestors against the protoss death ball. The buff just made it happen a little faster.
What I do think is true is that there are certain unit combinations which are very difficult to deal with at specific timings. For example, in ZvT, roaches tend to be a bad unit overall for zerg, so they have forgone using them in the early game. Terrans noticed this and have started to mass blue flame hellions. Usually a zerg will make a roach den if they suspect the heavy pressure of blue flame hellions, but since it's hard to scout, the zerg has to guess half the time based on assumptions or a very small amount of information. I think the solution isn't to nerf the blue flame hellion, but rather give zerg a viable scouting solution in the early/mid game.
However, in pvt, the 1-1-1 build presents a completely different problem. The 1-1-1 is very scoutable, however, even if scouted properly, there is no way (yet discovered) for protoss to punish it. There are possible tactics that a protoss can use in order to win, however, as a strategy as a whole, relying on micro intensive tactics will hurt in the long run. The problem in this case, is the combination of marines (good anti-air), tanks (good anti-ground), and banshees (a unit which forces a response). Beacuse of marines, it is very difficult to do mass air play, but because of banshees, you can't just make 4 immortals and win either, and the tanks make zealot stalker play autolose.
For this one, I don't think scouting is the problem, I think the problem is the lack of a good air to ground unit that isn't super susceptible to marines. Imagine if void rays still had 7 range. 1-1-1 wouldn't even matter since 2-3 void rays and all of a sudden you can outrange the marines and kite em forever while denying banshees free reign. Tanks would have to be placed further back which gives more space for a flank from zealots or blink stalkers. Void rays were nerfed from 7 to 6 mostly because void ray harass was super effective, however, on the highest level, there wasn't enough time to figure out if void rays were truly imbalanced.
So my thoughts on changes.
1. Give zerg some sort of scouting buff early, but without making them too powerful. Not sure what this is at this point, but that's the idea
2. Give void rays 7 range again. Now the 1-1-1 is a joke build and protoss can safely expand once again.
Hmm, tbh I (diamond toss) don't think a VR buff would help countering the 111 build. There is NO WAY you could pump out 2-3 voids off 1 base and not be all in yourself, AND you still die to cloakshees. The solution needs to be robo based, because there is always the threat of the terran getting cloak and letting banshees rule. TBH I think the big problem with the 111 is how a T can still pump marines constantly while teching to siege tech AND banshee. This is because of the reactor. The marine is a good counter to both phoenix and immortal, two of the most reasonable tech solutions to solving the 111. This is the essential problem, along with the threat of cloakshees. I do agree. I dont think the problem with the 1/1/1 all in is that protoss cannot expand, I believe the problem is that protoss are dependent upon the metagame and makes a fast expand without scouting, i.e. their builds right now are often a bit too greedy. I have most trouble getting my all in to work when protoss goes 2 or 3 gate/robo and scouts my build, use their stalkers to harass my advancement over the map and engage me aggressivly before i can siege up.
The problem is that the 1-1-1 beats all 1-basing except perhaps stargate, which loses to cloakshees. Reason being when T scouts no expo he can simply start one in base, and the protoss cannot start one until he sees it. Plus Terran still has banshee harass and a strong possibility of a seige tank/bunker contain.
|
On August 17 2011 08:49 Truedot wrote:this argument doesnt hold water. lets say that if you balance for the average player its even harder for a player to be good enough to get out of the average zone than when there is imbalance in the form of easy to execute cheeses that completely stomp certain races and boost a player that is "just average" but performing a far superior build order and unit abuse/timing to rocket up the leagues and actual good oplayers will struggle to oust said player because their cheese technique is so good. + Show Spoiler +A cheese isnt a cheese solely on the basis of before 5 minutes pass or something else. A cheese is something that makes it almost too easy to win/achieve. [sic: baldurs gate 2 CHEESE techniques in the player guide mag]. performing unlimited repeats of an unstoppable attack with a character until you win is cheese regardless of what time you execute it. The important part is that its unstoppable. this can translate to "very very hard to stop unless you counter perfectly".
for instance, I consider late game base trading terrans cheese. It doesn't matter if you kill off all their SCVs if you dont also get their production. they can just mule calldown 10 times and you are now stuck with trying to compete with a 4000 resource rate leader while your base trade lowered you to spending minerals to try to pump workers, none of which can compete with the mass mule to compensate for no scvs. Just like a 2 rax all in. do enough damage and mules will crutch your eco well enough to do a follow up kill. No other race can afford those types of ridiculously all in positions that are certain death to the other races, or at least an even enough trade that you both have to spend 5 minuite rebuilding eco to fight again. its cheesy because its a certain victory that no other race is allowed, a strategy thats wholly unique to terran and easy to abuse as an average player.
But its only at the highest level that it can be determined whether a strat is unstoppable.
At lower levels, simply paying better attention to their macro, micro and/or strategy may have enabled players to counter the seemingly unstoppable strat. Theres no way of telling since these skillsets wont be sufficiently good enough to judge at that level.
And if Blizzard ignore that fact then they're reducing the incentive of average players to improve those skillsets. Instead of saying "well, maybe I just need to improve my macro/micro/scouting and timing", they'll say "I keep losing to this, fix it Blizzard" and Blizzard will be 'fixing' about ten things a week since most players whine about almost everything they lose to.
Macro, micro and strategy are the three core skillsets and players should always be encouraged to work on them more, not less, else you dilute StarCraft as an E-sport.
|
I think it would be a fun change if the flames from hellions shot a little bit slower so players could micro to dodge a bit easier. I dont want the hellions to shoot slower so the attack speed might have to be adjusted if the shooting animation takes longer time.
|
On August 17 2011 21:27 Huntz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 19:06 Krede wrote:On August 17 2011 17:34 PeggyHill wrote:On August 17 2011 16:16 darmousseh wrote:
I don't think there is a HUGE imbalance. (Otherwise we would have like 30% win rates in some matchups and that's obviously not happening), however, just like in chess, there are certain strategies which are only thinly explored and thus it appears to be imbalanced. I still think that given time, zerg's would have begun to use infestors against the protoss death ball. The buff just made it happen a little faster.
What I do think is true is that there are certain unit combinations which are very difficult to deal with at specific timings. For example, in ZvT, roaches tend to be a bad unit overall for zerg, so they have forgone using them in the early game. Terrans noticed this and have started to mass blue flame hellions. Usually a zerg will make a roach den if they suspect the heavy pressure of blue flame hellions, but since it's hard to scout, the zerg has to guess half the time based on assumptions or a very small amount of information. I think the solution isn't to nerf the blue flame hellion, but rather give zerg a viable scouting solution in the early/mid game.
However, in pvt, the 1-1-1 build presents a completely different problem. The 1-1-1 is very scoutable, however, even if scouted properly, there is no way (yet discovered) for protoss to punish it. There are possible tactics that a protoss can use in order to win, however, as a strategy as a whole, relying on micro intensive tactics will hurt in the long run. The problem in this case, is the combination of marines (good anti-air), tanks (good anti-ground), and banshees (a unit which forces a response). Beacuse of marines, it is very difficult to do mass air play, but because of banshees, you can't just make 4 immortals and win either, and the tanks make zealot stalker play autolose.
For this one, I don't think scouting is the problem, I think the problem is the lack of a good air to ground unit that isn't super susceptible to marines. Imagine if void rays still had 7 range. 1-1-1 wouldn't even matter since 2-3 void rays and all of a sudden you can outrange the marines and kite em forever while denying banshees free reign. Tanks would have to be placed further back which gives more space for a flank from zealots or blink stalkers. Void rays were nerfed from 7 to 6 mostly because void ray harass was super effective, however, on the highest level, there wasn't enough time to figure out if void rays were truly imbalanced.
So my thoughts on changes.
1. Give zerg some sort of scouting buff early, but without making them too powerful. Not sure what this is at this point, but that's the idea
2. Give void rays 7 range again. Now the 1-1-1 is a joke build and protoss can safely expand once again.
Hmm, tbh I (diamond toss) don't think a VR buff would help countering the 111 build. There is NO WAY you could pump out 2-3 voids off 1 base and not be all in yourself, AND you still die to cloakshees. The solution needs to be robo based, because there is always the threat of the terran getting cloak and letting banshees rule. TBH I think the big problem with the 111 is how a T can still pump marines constantly while teching to siege tech AND banshee. This is because of the reactor. The marine is a good counter to both phoenix and immortal, two of the most reasonable tech solutions to solving the 111. This is the essential problem, along with the threat of cloakshees. I do agree. I dont think the problem with the 1/1/1 all in is that protoss cannot expand, I believe the problem is that protoss are dependent upon the metagame and makes a fast expand without scouting, i.e. their builds right now are often a bit too greedy. I have most trouble getting my all in to work when protoss goes 2 or 3 gate/robo and scouts my build, use their stalkers to harass my advancement over the map and engage me aggressivly before i can siege up. The problem is that the 1-1-1 beats all 1-basing except perhaps stargate, which loses to cloakshees. Reason being when T scouts no expo he can simply start one in base, and the protoss cannot start one until he sees it. Plus Terran still has banshee harass and a strong possibility of a seige tank/bunker contain.
I have never seen cloak with the 1/1/1 all in, to expensive in gas with everything else going on. Im not arguing that the all in is not strong, Im just saying that it is not unbeatable. The protoss needs to be active on the map harassing and not be afraid to pull probes.
Well I dont really know if this works in the high levels, but thats how people stop me when Im doing it.
|
On August 17 2011 23:52 Krede wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 21:27 Huntz wrote:On August 17 2011 19:06 Krede wrote:On August 17 2011 17:34 PeggyHill wrote:On August 17 2011 16:16 darmousseh wrote:
I don't think there is a HUGE imbalance. (Otherwise we would have like 30% win rates in some matchups and that's obviously not happening), however, just like in chess, there are certain strategies which are only thinly explored and thus it appears to be imbalanced. I still think that given time, zerg's would have begun to use infestors against the protoss death ball. The buff just made it happen a little faster.
What I do think is true is that there are certain unit combinations which are very difficult to deal with at specific timings. For example, in ZvT, roaches tend to be a bad unit overall for zerg, so they have forgone using them in the early game. Terrans noticed this and have started to mass blue flame hellions. Usually a zerg will make a roach den if they suspect the heavy pressure of blue flame hellions, but since it's hard to scout, the zerg has to guess half the time based on assumptions or a very small amount of information. I think the solution isn't to nerf the blue flame hellion, but rather give zerg a viable scouting solution in the early/mid game.
However, in pvt, the 1-1-1 build presents a completely different problem. The 1-1-1 is very scoutable, however, even if scouted properly, there is no way (yet discovered) for protoss to punish it. There are possible tactics that a protoss can use in order to win, however, as a strategy as a whole, relying on micro intensive tactics will hurt in the long run. The problem in this case, is the combination of marines (good anti-air), tanks (good anti-ground), and banshees (a unit which forces a response). Beacuse of marines, it is very difficult to do mass air play, but because of banshees, you can't just make 4 immortals and win either, and the tanks make zealot stalker play autolose.
For this one, I don't think scouting is the problem, I think the problem is the lack of a good air to ground unit that isn't super susceptible to marines. Imagine if void rays still had 7 range. 1-1-1 wouldn't even matter since 2-3 void rays and all of a sudden you can outrange the marines and kite em forever while denying banshees free reign. Tanks would have to be placed further back which gives more space for a flank from zealots or blink stalkers. Void rays were nerfed from 7 to 6 mostly because void ray harass was super effective, however, on the highest level, there wasn't enough time to figure out if void rays were truly imbalanced.
So my thoughts on changes.
1. Give zerg some sort of scouting buff early, but without making them too powerful. Not sure what this is at this point, but that's the idea
2. Give void rays 7 range again. Now the 1-1-1 is a joke build and protoss can safely expand once again.
Hmm, tbh I (diamond toss) don't think a VR buff would help countering the 111 build. There is NO WAY you could pump out 2-3 voids off 1 base and not be all in yourself, AND you still die to cloakshees. The solution needs to be robo based, because there is always the threat of the terran getting cloak and letting banshees rule. TBH I think the big problem with the 111 is how a T can still pump marines constantly while teching to siege tech AND banshee. This is because of the reactor. The marine is a good counter to both phoenix and immortal, two of the most reasonable tech solutions to solving the 111. This is the essential problem, along with the threat of cloakshees. I do agree. I dont think the problem with the 1/1/1 all in is that protoss cannot expand, I believe the problem is that protoss are dependent upon the metagame and makes a fast expand without scouting, i.e. their builds right now are often a bit too greedy. I have most trouble getting my all in to work when protoss goes 2 or 3 gate/robo and scouts my build, use their stalkers to harass my advancement over the map and engage me aggressivly before i can siege up. The problem is that the 1-1-1 beats all 1-basing except perhaps stargate, which loses to cloakshees. Reason being when T scouts no expo he can simply start one in base, and the protoss cannot start one until he sees it. Plus Terran still has banshee harass and a strong possibility of a seige tank/bunker contain. I have never seen cloak with the 1/1/1 all in, to expensive in gas with everything else going on. Im not arguing that the all in is not strong, Im just saying that it is not unbeatable. The protoss needs to be active on the map harassing and not be afraid to pull probes. Well I dont really know if this works in the high levels, but thats how people stop me when Im doing it.
Yesterdays korean weekly puzzle vs some terran. The terran had cloak and could of potentially won the game with it.
The key to 1/1/1 cloak is the lack of obs. You can scan and kill the one that floating around the battle and the toss has to gg because the cloaked banshees will rip his army apart b4 he can build another one.
|
also not on a pro level but standard diamond/masters this 1/1/1 is unbeatable due to the fact that Terran doesn't have to micro for this push.
While the toss has to try to stay alive. with perfect FF and key stalker/immortal target firing
|
I just lost to 1-1-1 allin for the 20th time in a row... Obviously something is wrong, no? Not trying to sound whiny or anything but really if even the high level pros are having so much trouble with it, something must be wrong. I make the "correct" unit response when i scout it, i fend off the banshee harass, but when the push comes its always just too strong and its not even close. I'm diamond and it's just impossible to stop, and i hope blizzard will do something about this because almost every terran is abusing it.
|
On August 17 2011 23:52 Krede wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 21:27 Huntz wrote:On August 17 2011 19:06 Krede wrote:On August 17 2011 17:34 PeggyHill wrote:On August 17 2011 16:16 darmousseh wrote:
I don't think there is a HUGE imbalance. (Otherwise we would have like 30% win rates in some matchups and that's obviously not happening), however, just like in chess, there are certain strategies which are only thinly explored and thus it appears to be imbalanced. I still think that given time, zerg's would have begun to use infestors against the protoss death ball. The buff just made it happen a little faster.
What I do think is true is that there are certain unit combinations which are very difficult to deal with at specific timings. For example, in ZvT, roaches tend to be a bad unit overall for zerg, so they have forgone using them in the early game. Terrans noticed this and have started to mass blue flame hellions. Usually a zerg will make a roach den if they suspect the heavy pressure of blue flame hellions, but since it's hard to scout, the zerg has to guess half the time based on assumptions or a very small amount of information. I think the solution isn't to nerf the blue flame hellion, but rather give zerg a viable scouting solution in the early/mid game.
However, in pvt, the 1-1-1 build presents a completely different problem. The 1-1-1 is very scoutable, however, even if scouted properly, there is no way (yet discovered) for protoss to punish it. There are possible tactics that a protoss can use in order to win, however, as a strategy as a whole, relying on micro intensive tactics will hurt in the long run. The problem in this case, is the combination of marines (good anti-air), tanks (good anti-ground), and banshees (a unit which forces a response). Beacuse of marines, it is very difficult to do mass air play, but because of banshees, you can't just make 4 immortals and win either, and the tanks make zealot stalker play autolose.
For this one, I don't think scouting is the problem, I think the problem is the lack of a good air to ground unit that isn't super susceptible to marines. Imagine if void rays still had 7 range. 1-1-1 wouldn't even matter since 2-3 void rays and all of a sudden you can outrange the marines and kite em forever while denying banshees free reign. Tanks would have to be placed further back which gives more space for a flank from zealots or blink stalkers. Void rays were nerfed from 7 to 6 mostly because void ray harass was super effective, however, on the highest level, there wasn't enough time to figure out if void rays were truly imbalanced.
So my thoughts on changes.
1. Give zerg some sort of scouting buff early, but without making them too powerful. Not sure what this is at this point, but that's the idea
2. Give void rays 7 range again. Now the 1-1-1 is a joke build and protoss can safely expand once again.
Hmm, tbh I (diamond toss) don't think a VR buff would help countering the 111 build. There is NO WAY you could pump out 2-3 voids off 1 base and not be all in yourself, AND you still die to cloakshees. The solution needs to be robo based, because there is always the threat of the terran getting cloak and letting banshees rule. TBH I think the big problem with the 111 is how a T can still pump marines constantly while teching to siege tech AND banshee. This is because of the reactor. The marine is a good counter to both phoenix and immortal, two of the most reasonable tech solutions to solving the 111. This is the essential problem, along with the threat of cloakshees. I do agree. I dont think the problem with the 1/1/1 all in is that protoss cannot expand, I believe the problem is that protoss are dependent upon the metagame and makes a fast expand without scouting, i.e. their builds right now are often a bit too greedy. I have most trouble getting my all in to work when protoss goes 2 or 3 gate/robo and scouts my build, use their stalkers to harass my advancement over the map and engage me aggressivly before i can siege up. The problem is that the 1-1-1 beats all 1-basing except perhaps stargate, which loses to cloakshees. Reason being when T scouts no expo he can simply start one in base, and the protoss cannot start one until he sees it. Plus Terran still has banshee harass and a strong possibility of a seige tank/bunker contain. I have never seen cloak with the 1/1/1 all in, to expensive in gas with everything else going on. Im not arguing that the all in is not strong, Im just saying that it is not unbeatable. The protoss needs to be active on the map harassing and not be afraid to pull probes. Well I dont really know if this works in the high levels, but thats how people stop me when Im doing it.
They can easily cut back on Tanks or forgo Siege Mode in order to pick up Cloak if their scouting information (scan or Banshee harass) tells them that you don't have a Robo. It takes a long time to research, but if they're going to wait until they have 3+ Banshees to attack anyways, it won't make that big of a difference.
I'm not sure that the 1/1/1 all-in is necessarily "imbalanced" but it seems to be infinitely harder to stop than it is to perform. Whether or not this makes it imbalanced, I think that's just flat out poor design. This probably stems from the fact that Terran is the only "finished" race design-wise, while Zerg and Protoss are arguably missing some of the units they need to be in the same place. It could be said that come HotS, Zerg will have the same synergy between their units that Terran seems to have now.
I just hope they're not waiting until Legacy of the Void to do the same for Protoss.
|
I agree with what was mentioned before about increasing voidray range back to 7 from 6. Sure, the harass potential is there to kite marines, but without flux vanes, it's no more of an inconvinience to Terran than kiting with marauders is to gateway units (except blink stalkers, obviously). Plus with all the toss nerfing going on, it'd be nice to see some more viable lategame play outside of a deathball (especially now that amulet is gone, toss are really getting forced into the same tactics over and over).
My opinion anyways. I also agree with that big outline listed way back about why Terran is OP for the sake of drawing newbie gamers. Many solid points there.
|
On August 18 2011 02:30 Rob28 wrote:
I agree with what was mentioned before about increasing voidray range back to 7 from 6. Sure, the harass potential is there to kite marines, but without flux vanes, it's no more of an inconvinience to Terran than kiting with marauders is to gateway units (except blink stalkers, obviously). Plus with all the toss nerfing going on, it'd be nice to see some more viable lategame play outside of a deathball (especially now that amulet is gone, toss are really getting forced into the same tactics over and over).
My opinion anyways. I also agree with that big outline listed way back about why Terran is OP for the sake of drawing newbie gamers. Many solid points there.
There's a huge problem with buffing VRs again. If you've ever seen the Korean ladder (at least masters level), you would see most vPs feature stargate play these days. These pushes are EXTREMELY dangerous and incredibly hard to hold off. It's harder to pull off than a 4 gate, but it's more deadly. It's part of the reason Hongun is still in the GSL. Any buff to VRs would likely turn this type of play into the "standard" for everybody (in a bad way).
As far as Terran being OP, which seems to be some sort of minor theme of this thread, I believe there is some disconnect between skill levels. For the past many months, Terran representation has been slipping in all but the extreme leagues (gm, masters, and bronze). The bronze part is easy to explain due to the campaign etc., but there's something that separates the top 2% of players and the next 78%. I would go as far as to suggest that Terran takes more (rts) experience to perform well with, but when you have that experience, Terran allows you to really take advantage. One thing for sure, however, I'm really not seeing how Terran is too powerful below the top level (and the data we have on that agrees).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
