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readmore.de took Ben 'Mr. Bitter' Nichol aside at the Battle.net Invitational 2011 to ask him questions about his move to Cologne and the game in general.
Here's a snippet:
Regarding growth, do you still see Korea as being the place everyone looks up to as they did in Broodwar?
The Korean players are still the best, that has been undoubtedly proven. The StarCraft 2 business model has been more successful outside Korea in my opinion. You're seeing unprecedented growth in America and in Europe it's already an amazing scene that is about to boom again. It's a tough question...what I really think we're going to see is a migration of Korean players into the Western scene and StarCraft 2 will become a global thing instead of something where everyone has to be in Seoul or in Cologne.
So you're not afraid of tournaments becoming boring because of first places being occupied solely by Koreans? We have seen a glimpse of that in recent weeks.
I'm terrified of this possibility because it would make the spectator's experience stale in my opinion. There's nothign I can do about that, foreign players have to step up and bring their gameplay to the next level. The first part of that is starting to happen with Korean players moving to foreign teams, and in the team houses the work ethic really starts to rub off if they stay there together. That's going to happen eventually, Puma joined up with EG and I assume he's going to be in their house at some point. EG is a great example because it's a group of premier top level players who haven't been performing for a long time. I hope that this Korean influx is going to motivate foreign players, I worry that it might not. Time will tell, that really is the next big test.
Read the full interview at readmore international.
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Foreign players hwaiting! Hopefully the new competition will spur people on to heights of super awesomeness XD
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Absolutely agree with everything he said. I think one of the reasons why SC2 is so appealing is the idea that foreigners are not hopelessly inferior to the Koreans on the competitive scene. If the Koreans pull far ahead again it'll just make foreign pro players look less legitimate.
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Its nothing that hasn't already been said by many others. No one wants another SCBW skill gap.
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I agree
it's up to NA/EU players to up their skill level to that of Koreans and help keep growing the Western SC2 scene
if Korean domination is maintained, then growth will eventually stagnate and begin to decrease as the divide becomes too apparent
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I pray we don't end up in the same state as WC3 (a couple of top foreigners and the rest Asians)
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it's not about being a korean or not, it's all about the amount of time the foreinger players willing to sacrifice to practice. In korea and asian cultures in general, gaming is still not as accepted as in the western but it still has much stronger gaming teams and players. It's is because these players are willing to play at a professional level, they are willing to risk their future, some may even oppose their parents and friends to play starcraft 2. The foreingers must step up their attitude toward esport or else, they will never catch up. Even some lower level players in korea are more hardworking than most of the top foreginer i know.
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On August 07 2011 00:55 Cadgers wrote:
I pray we don't end up in the same state as WC3 (a couple of top foreigners and the rest Asians)
Consider it is lucky, because with this pace, there will be now foreingers at all, sc2 is still new and korean are already dominating sc2 scene.
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Maybe it's not only the players which are lacking, but also the teams.
Not many foreign teams can provide their players with the excellend practise conditions that are in Korea (team house and dedicated coach).
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On August 07 2011 00:59 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 00:55 Cadgers wrote:
I pray we don't end up in the same state as WC3 (a couple of top foreigners and the rest Asians) Consider it is lucky, because with this pace, there will be now foreingers at all, sc2 is still new and korean are already dominating sc2 scene.
sc2 is still new
You know, when America was new, the British were dominating.
What is true now, at this very moment, is not necessarily true in 10 years. That applies to everything.
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thats what i always say.....
its simple math.....12-14 practice mostly everyday is simple a bigger number than 4-8 hours very unfrequently....it just pays off....(ofc stupid mass gaming doesnt help, please keep in mind i include the professional practice atmosphere in korean teamhouses here)
the foreigners need teams that act more strict to practice...there are some teams that have contracts which include some hours they must play per day/week ....but thats just a joke because its not that much...if they really want to compete with the best, they need to train like the best and stop slacking...
there are really horrible examples how too less practice brings you down. like tyler for example which always excuses his slumps with things like "i didnt practice enough" "i should practice more"...but most of the time he just keeps excusing instead of starting to practice a lot ^^ (ofc he is really excused in some way way (marriage and stuff) )
thats why naniwa fits so perfect into the korean scene. hes a workaholic at starcraft and he will defenitly use his time in korea to get maximum results in terms of skill
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Can we just get a banner or something at the top of the website that says "yes, practising more makes you better" and have done with it?.. circular discussion every day on this very topic.
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On August 07 2011 01:04 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 00:59 brachester wrote:On August 07 2011 00:55 Cadgers wrote:
I pray we don't end up in the same state as WC3 (a couple of top foreigners and the rest Asians) Consider it is lucky, because with this pace, there will be now foreingers at all, sc2 is still new and korean are already dominating sc2 scene. You know, when America was new, the British were dominating. What is true now, at this very moment, is not necessarily true in 10 years. That applies to everything.
Your analogy doesn't apply to this case.. Just like BW, if Korean dominate for too long, most foreigners will just stop playing and fans will decrease outside of Korea.
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On August 07 2011 01:00 JustPassingBy wrote:
Maybe it's not only the players which are lacking, but also the teams.
Not many foreign teams can provide their players with the excellend practise conditions that are in Korea (team house and dedicated coach).
New Star HoSeo their practice house is a room in their school yet they somehow are the first on the team league.
You don't need that much as people like to claim it seems.
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It's just hard for foreigners to keep up with Korea. Even if few foreigners practice a lot (naniwa, thorzain, select) the player pool is just worse in Europe and Us than Korea, that's the main reason why I think foreigners won't be able to compete.
In like 2 years 90% of the players will probably be Koreans. Every NA/EU tournament/clanwar/team will just be tons of Koreans, that's how it was in WC3. We already seeing the trend towards this and it's going much faster than Wc3 started moving towards this trend.
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On August 07 2011 00:50 Jacko11 wrote:
Its nothing that hasn't already been said by many others. No one wants another SCBW skill gap.
This. Voiced by so many others so many times.
Commentator mentions it in part of an interview? Topicworthy.
It really is implied knowledge. We know the koreans are better, we know foreign players have to improve.
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O rly? I thought they were fine with getting raped every event. I'm sure most foreigners don't practice 11hrs/day 6days/week as most of the koreans.
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It's all about the time you put into the game.
If you're a foreigner and only play a few hours per day you probably don't deserve to be at the top.
As a spectator I don't care about the nationality of a player, I only care about seeing the best players of the world.
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On August 07 2011 01:04 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 00:59 brachester wrote:On August 07 2011 00:55 Cadgers wrote:
I pray we don't end up in the same state as WC3 (a couple of top foreigners and the rest Asians) Consider it is lucky, because with this pace, there will be now foreingers at all, sc2 is still new and korean are already dominating sc2 scene. You know, when America was new, the British were dominating. What is true now, at this very moment, is not necessarily true in 10 years. That applies to everything.
This doesn't make any sense.
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old news..
seriously its no secret foreigners need to step up their game. I think they are making a decent attempt at doing so too, moving into prohouses, moving to korea, playing on kr server etc.
we'll see in the coming months how big the skill gap truly is
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On August 07 2011 01:13 SecondChance wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 00:50 Jacko11 wrote:
Its nothing that hasn't already been said by many others. No one wants another SCBW skill gap. This. Voiced by so many others so many times. Commentator mentions it in part of an interview? Topicworthy.
It's just a piece of a whole interview. Topic is for interview. Stop being such a douche ;<. Anyway cool interview. Seems people only response to titles
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So he just repeated what everyone else said? ok
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The gap is growing every month, there's no signs right now of foreigners catching up.
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"EG is a great example because it's a group of premier top level players"
Yeah right. StrifeCro, Axslav, Incontrol, Machine and LzGamer are all top level players.
User was warned for this post
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We need more foreigner team living in team houses and I also think having a coach can be really helpful and ofc practice practice practice.
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Hijacking this thread somewhat:
I'm starting to really enjoy Bitter's casting a lot more.
He's mixing perfectly with Rotterdam - Rotterdam's skill has a lot to do with this I think; he's very versatile, as a friend put it to me - and he's clearly enjoying himself.
Once he begins to loosen up on camera a little more, he should try to cast for the GSL. Only other thing I'd suggest is that he straighten up his posture a little (don't slump the shoulders so much) to cast a better on-camera profile.
That and continue to enjoy yourself. I'm enjoying watching the two of you - Rotterdam/Bitter - on camera, so keep it up.
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This is why I'm not happy about the Koreans going to foreign teams.
Yeah, I'm all for "support e-Sports", but right now I think that the reason so many foreigners are watching is because the foreign players can still compete.
But the skill gap is growing and growing fast. And with less and less foreigners being able to compete with Koreans (most who can are in Korea/have spent time in Korea), I worry that the foreign interest level will die. But when Koreans start topping every single MLG, NASL, basically any event that allows them to participate, it will get stale for some people. Personally, I am more interested in the better matches, it's why I don't watch the IPL. Not because of casters, production quality or whatever, it's because the games aren't as good. It's also why a mainstream foreign scene won't work unless they start to really, really pick it up. It's kind of why the MLS isn't as popular in the United States. Yeah, yeah, America doesn't like soccer as much, but it also doesn't help that the average level of play is hugely lower than that of Europe, with our best players going over there to compete instead of wasting their talents in the MLS.
Would I like to see foreign players succeed? Hell yeah I would, but they have to start training like the Korean progamers if they want to live the lives of the Korean progamers.
11+ hours a day of practice, quality practice. If you want to get good you have to work at it. That's why Huk is succeeding, that's why Naniwa will probably do very well. It's because they are willing to work hard to get those results, not just complain about how the Koreans are taking their money.
If I didn't have school, work, other obligations, I would love to put 9-10 hours a day into the game to see where I could get.
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Where money is, talent will start to follow. The problem right now mostly has to do with the fact that so few foreign players were making their primary living off SC or SC2. It just wasn't an option to live in NA and play SC full time and forget about things like a job, or school. With the influx of money that is going to change. It isn't about winning those tournaments even, it has more to do with the sponsorship money because that is the money that provides for the day to day living. Players can't bank on winning tournaments for their living, it is just a bonus if it happens. However, if the sponsorship money continues to grow like it has, and the prize pools increase so that finishing in the top 8 or 12 is still some good cash, you'll see the foreign players slowly start to catch up.
Also what you'll see is the pressure from the sponsors on the players which will get them motivated and practicing. Once the REAL money starts to roll in, the sponsors will really be able to say, "hey you need to be performing at this level. you are expected to practice and treat this like your job."
People are assuming that the gap won't be closed, but I think the opposite. I just think there is a bit of a lag right now between the influx of money, and the players being able to slowly rearrange their lives to dedicate their time. Also, it means young talent, the 15-18 year old gamers that might have potential can realistically say, "I'm going to practice and be a full time pro gamer" and not have it be a complete joke. Before, it was like, "yeah ok you can do that but you still need to go to school or have a job." It won't be the case as it becomes an actual attainable option that hey you could do this full time.
So I'm not in a crazy panic mode like some people over Koreans having won some tournaments recently. It just takes time for the players to come around and things to catch up. But one thing anyone knows, and you see this in sports all the time, if there is money, talent will follow and so will results. Just look at European, and SA basketball. Who would have thought anyone in the world would ever compete with the US after those first few Dream Teams. Then all the sudden basketball gains popularity in foreign areas, money comes in, talented players and athletes get serious, and next thing you know international basketball has closed the gap big time. Is the US still ahead? Sure, but it isn't just a walkover, and it isn't uncommon to see foreign teams win games or exhibitions.
The last point is that the foreign player vs. Korean rivalry will also help. I think players will be more motivated then ever to beat Koreans. Nothing like being told how good you aren't, to get you motivated to prove someone otherwise. I think foreign players will and already are sick of seeing the Koreans win everything and when you hear pros they are more serious then ever. I think some of them took for granted what it was going to take and thought the gap was closer then it really was.
I'm optimistic about how SC2 is going to develop globally. I think Koreans will dominate for the next few months, but you are going to start to see some foreign results slowly and slowly and one day we'll wake up a year from now and that gap will have really closed.
/rant over.
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On August 07 2011 01:04 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 00:59 brachester wrote:On August 07 2011 00:55 Cadgers wrote:
I pray we don't end up in the same state as WC3 (a couple of top foreigners and the rest Asians) Consider it is lucky, because with this pace, there will be now foreingers at all, sc2 is still new and korean are already dominating sc2 scene. You know, when America was new, the British were dominating. What is true now, at this very moment, is not necessarily true in 10 years. That applies to everything.
Bad example. And in Esports, it has been the case that a scene will get dominated consistently for 10 years. That's just how it's worked in the past.
Honestly, though, it'll moreso come down to wether or not SC2 remains popular. If it doesn't, the sponsors will leave, MLG will ditch it, and the foreign scene will become as it was in BW. But as long as cash is flowing through the scene, the foreign players have the opportunity to rise to the occasion, and start beating koreans consistently, even if they're getting dominated by them at the moment.
Let's just hope that they do.
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foreigners should watch 12 weeks of pros that bitter does, it certainly help bitter alot in his mlg when he played!!!
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brachester Australia. August 07 2011 00:58. Posts 322
In korea [..] gaming is still not as accepted as in the western [...]
Wait... what..? Could you give some more information because I can't believe in a society with such a big progaming scene gaming could be less accepted by the mainstream than in the Western society where nothing comparable exists.
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On August 07 2011 01:00 JustPassingBy wrote:
Maybe it's not only the players which are lacking, but also the teams.
Not many foreign teams can provide their players with the excellend practise conditions that are in Korea (team house and dedicated coach).
I agree with this. The companies that are emplying these players have to ensure that their employees are doing their job.
I don' think in order for them to keep up they have to practice for 16hrs a day, but they do have to practice. If I were a team manager I would schedule training sessions like any other job that I am paid to do. Mon-Fri 9-5 with a 1hr lunch
Anyways, the way I see it if the foreigner players can't keep up we will see these foreign teams employing Korean players while the foreign players will be out of a job and competing in online cups (that no one cares about) for a few bucks here and there.
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Someday, maybe a smart foreign player will realize: hey, If i train 10 hours a day everyday on the Kr ladder for a few months and get insanely good, I will be making a lot more money in sponsorship and tournaments!
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On August 07 2011 01:45 magnaflow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 01:00 JustPassingBy wrote:
Maybe it's not only the players which are lacking, but also the teams.
Not many foreign teams can provide their players with the excellend practise conditions that are in Korea (team house and dedicated coach). I agree with this. The companies that are emplying these players have to ensure that their employees are doing their job. I don' think in order for them to keep up they have to practice for 16hrs a day, but they do have to practice. If I were a team manager I would schedule training sessions like any other job that I am paid to do. Mon-Fri 9-5 with a 1hr lunch Anyways, the way I see it if the foreigner players can't keep up we will see these foreign teams employing Korean players while the foreign players will be out of a job and competing in online cups (that no one cares about) for a few bucks here and there.
9-5 with 1 hour lunch ?
Wish my job had that, 10 hrs without lunchbreak 
But yea they need a coach / manager that makes sure they use there time well and tells what they need to improve.
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I'm starting to feel that foreign players have to get better in order for the sc2 scene to survive internationally. When people go to big lans and watch their favorite players play, they want them to win, they don't want the koreans to come in and sweep every position. If it keeps happening the less dedicated fans will leave, then their friends who got those people into sc don't have that many friends to watch games with any and will leave, etc. I don't think this will happen anytime soon since there's 2 more expansions that will bring in a lot more players.
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I have to assume that foreign players are only practicing a couple hours a day at the most. But if i'm wrong and they do practice more then that then we are doomed.
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I won't be surprised after all the expansions comes out that we see a huge competitive gaming shift to China and suddenly all the Chinese players will begin to dominate SC2.
Sen is just the beginning.
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On August 07 2011 00:50 Jacko11 wrote:
Its nothing that hasn't already been said by many others. No one wants another SCBW skill gap.
I want it to be that way where Koreans just 2:0 each foreigner and only can be beaten by another korean. Maybe I'm just Korean bias? I respect foreigners like HuK and Jinro who are staying in korea long term.
Most Foreigners are too lazy to practice or to get better, they need to be under strict management of practicing and not just practice with the team but amongst other teams. If foreign players don't want to be under strict policies then have fun making no money on the game you love.
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Most of the Koreans that switch(ed) also have better mechanics and more experience from BW. And very few A-teamers have switched at all, so just putting in an equal amount of practice isn't going to close the skill gap quickly.
On August 07 2011 02:03 skrzmark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 00:50 Jacko11 wrote:
Its nothing that hasn't already been said by many others. No one wants another SCBW skill gap. I want it to be that way where Koreans just 2:0 each foreigner and only can be beaten by another korean. Maybe I'm just Korean bias? I respect foreigners like HuK and Jinro who are staying in korea long term.
That's strange to be honest. That's basically saying you want competition to die down and eventually have people lose interest in the game.
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Old news coming from a marginal player. Anybody could have told you this.
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Sigh, what a sensationalist title.
The interview I think is much more interesting as a center piece on Mr. Bitter's rise as a caster. I'm pretty satisfied with the success he's seen given his great casting skills.
Also: How many times are we going to read "Foreigners suck Koreans are better". Because every time the answer is always the same: "Foreigners needs to work get practice houses blah blah blah".
So tired of reading it.
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On August 07 2011 02:01 magnaflow wrote:
I have to assume that foreign players are only practicing a couple hours a day at the most. But if i'm wrong and they do practice more then that then we are doomed.
As it has been pointed out many times before, it's all about the quality of practice and even more importantly the mindset and fitness during practice.
Everyone who doesn't go to Korea to train and compete is pretty much doomed in the long run. Even if foreign progamer houses get set up, I doubt they're going to have the same level of iron discipline and dedication as Korean ones do.
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Did anyone actually read the interview and not just the excerpt?
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On August 07 2011 02:04 Skwid1g wrote:Most of the Koreans that switch(ed) also have better mechanics and more experience from BW. And very few A-teamers have switched at all, so just putting in an equal amount of practice isn't going to close the skill gap quickly. Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 02:03 skrzmark wrote:On August 07 2011 00:50 Jacko11 wrote:
Its nothing that hasn't already been said by many others. No one wants another SCBW skill gap. I want it to be that way where Koreans just 2:0 each foreigner and only can be beaten by another korean. Maybe I'm just Korean bias? I respect foreigners like HuK and Jinro who are staying in korea long term. That's strange to be honest. That's basically saying you want competition to die down and eventually have people lose interest in the game.
No I want the competition to be the best not having joke of players in pool play in MLG that stay in for 3 seasons... I'm not gonna name the players obviously. I think players should at least go to Korea for at least a month try out for GSL and not complain the money isn't good enough... The money isn't good enough because they are pretty much saying they have no chance of winning a tournament such as GSL.
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Foreigners need to get better looking as well.
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On August 07 2011 02:02 sagefreke wrote:
I won't be surprised after all the expansions comes out that we see a huge competitive gaming shift to China and suddenly all the Chinese players will begin to dominate SC2.
Sen is just the beginning.
Sen's Taiwanese. He's not actively involved in the Chinese scene per say. But yes, I can imagine Chinese players doing very well once they get invitations because their infrastructure is similar to the Korean SC2 scene, or more specifically, teams like ZeNeX and NsHoSeo (relatively poor wages + long hours). They're thirsty for wins.
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On August 07 2011 02:10 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 02:02 sagefreke wrote:
I won't be surprised after all the expansions comes out that we see a huge competitive gaming shift to China and suddenly all the Chinese players will begin to dominate SC2.
Sen is just the beginning. Sen's Taiwanese. He's not actively involved in the Chinese scene per say. But yes, I can imagine Chinese players doing very well once they get invitations because their infrastructure is similar to the Korean SC2 scene, or more specifically, teams like ZeNeX and NsHoSeo (relatively poor wages + long hours). They're thirsty for wins.
I am impressed with ZeNEX at the beginning of the new GSL season (January) I thought this team didn't even exist anymore or was the worst team in the scene. But now they recruited some good players or became better? Now they impress me with each tournament they qualify for... Puzzle is one of my favorite streamers now.
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From my viewership level it makes absolutely no difference if the best players are Korean or Western, as long as they are the best.
Even though the Koreans don't speak English, they are still charismatic/charming in their own way and translations are available enough.
It will probably hurt sponsorship though since Western companies will want to have Western "stars" to promote their products.
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United States23455 Posts
This will be said for years and years until the American/European gaming infrastructure is up to the level of Korea's where there are multiple team houses with high level players and dedicated coaching for each house.
Then, when that happens, we'll see an influx of Brood War pros come in out of nowhere and just make the skill gap return once more.
Korea has a decade head start on North America and Europe. It's going to take years before you can say that they're very close/even to the skill level of the best Koreans.
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On August 07 2011 02:10 Chairman Ray wrote:
Foreigners need to get better looking as well.
Jinro and Tyler are pretty decent <3333.
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On August 07 2011 02:06 Gamegene wrote:
Sigh, what a sensationalist title.
The interview I think is much more interesting as a center piece on Mr. Bitter's rise as a caster. I'm pretty satisfied with the success he's seen given his great casting skills.
Also: How many times are we going to read "Foreigners suck Koreans are better". Because every time the answer is always the same: "Foreigners needs to work get practice houses blah blah blah".
So tired of reading it.
It'll probably stay there until Foreigners get better.
The rise of foreigners is proving to be more difficult because they're not winning any high-tier placements in tournaments. Less to show, less achievements, less money in the making and that may drop motivation or players.
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Firstly, let me apologize for this long post. It's not a thoroughly thought out post, it's not even an essay, it's a few reflexions on the state of gaming as a profession. Hopefully it'll inspire some discussion on the subject.
I'd like to hear about any other sport or job that demands so much work in order to perform properly. The amount of practice needed and the cramped environment team houses give to players is setting back labour advances back to the 19th century. We're basically sweatshopping gamers, and everyone here thinks that's great and it's necessary. Of course, the Korean gamers are great, of course, they're playing a game (it's not work if it's all play, right?), but few seems to think the expected hours to put in to the craft is unreasonable.
I'm still appalled that people dream of progaming houses where people don't have beds, the living room is basically a room filled with 12-25 computers with barely any room to move, someone doing your cooking and cleaning, and you melt away doing nothing but gaming for hours and hours on end. Is that discipline? If you want to look at it that way. I do not feel it's discipline. I feel it's exploiting human beings by telling them that they won't be able to live their "dream" unless they live in those conditions. Sounds great, but remember, they're young, they don't have families, they feel privileged. If they do found a family, they generally will move out of a gaming house and change environments which will hurt their game play and risk them getting ejected from a team. In most countries, you can go to court pleading human rights arguments when you lose your job because you found a family. Some might argue that it's normal, an athletes career is short, and once he's done he's done. Sure, but MLB, NHL, NFL, NBA all have unions for awhile now protecting players. There are so many stories in history of hockey players with great talent being exploited before the union came around. The wages they now make today is not something I wish to discuss, merely the fact that a pre-union major sports league exploited its players before.
Look around you. Lower wages, rising inflation, increasing discrepancy between the rich and the poor, attacks against unions, contracted work in public and private sectors, loss of job security (correct me if I'm wrong, but IdrA basically has high school education, once we've run him to the ground, no matter the money he has now, the lifestyle might crush any opportunity for reinsertion into the labour market with a decent wage. Who knows) in many fields, pension cuts to fund corporate debt, decreased government spending, austerity plans, rising personal credit defaulting, and so much more; I have a hard time believing that the global labour market is going the right direction. Pro gaming is no different.
I'd rather see regulation on this line of work. Can you imagine working out 12 hours a days to become a better baseball/hockey/football/soccer player? Hopefully we'll get around to having this type of discussion and see what is reasonable and what is unreasonable in a global spectrum with regards to "professional" gaming. Keyword here is professional.
For all these reasons and many more, I feel very strongly against applying a "Korean work ethic" in the West. It's bringing us centuries back in terms of labour rights and it's heading the wrong direction, I believe. It's also another reason why I'll always support non-korean gamers instead of calling them lazy or unskilled. I don't mind. I want to watch competitive gaming in West, I'll accept the skill level they provide. I don't feel it's fair to compare, most notably due to cultural differences.
I apologize if this post offends anyone in any way. I strongly feel, however, that it's a point that needs to be explored further to have a discussion about this subject.
TL;DR : Stop being lazy and read it.
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Koreans dominating like they did at mlg anaheim will destory the scene if it continues. Western player needs to step up, simple as that.
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Loved the interview. Love what Mr. Bitter's doing for the community. <3
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On August 07 2011 02:04 Skwid1g wrote:Most of the Koreans that switch(ed) also have better mechanics and more experience from BW. And very few A-teamers have switched at all, so just putting in an equal amount of practice isn't going to close the skill gap quickly. Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 02:03 skrzmark wrote:On August 07 2011 00:50 Jacko11 wrote:
Its nothing that hasn't already been said by many others. No one wants another SCBW skill gap. I want it to be that way where Koreans just 2:0 each foreigner and only can be beaten by another korean. Maybe I'm just Korean bias? I respect foreigners like HuK and Jinro who are staying in korea long term. That's strange to be honest. That's basically saying you want competition to die down and eventually have people lose interest in the game.
If you lose interest in the game because koreans dominate it, then you shouldn't be playing this game.
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On August 07 2011 02:13 skrzmark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 02:10 Oktyabr wrote:On August 07 2011 02:02 sagefreke wrote:
I won't be surprised after all the expansions comes out that we see a huge competitive gaming shift to China and suddenly all the Chinese players will begin to dominate SC2.
Sen is just the beginning. Sen's Taiwanese. He's not actively involved in the Chinese scene per say. But yes, I can imagine Chinese players doing very well once they get invitations because their infrastructure is similar to the Korean SC2 scene, or more specifically, teams like ZeNeX and NsHoSeo (relatively poor wages + long hours). They're thirsty for wins. I am impressed with ZeNEX at the beginning of the new GSL season (January) I thought this team didn't even exist anymore or was the worst team in the scene. But now they recruited some good players or became better? Now they impress me with each tournament they qualify for... Puzzle is one of my favorite streamers now.
Puzzle's just one of the beasts in there. There's Coca that made a decent run in July, there's Byun that made the semi's, and there's Kyrix that has been around Code S for quite some time. I just feel that it's a pity that they don't seem to have any sponsors yet.
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MLG kind of left me disappointed that foreigners didn't perform very well. And that's not to say I was happy to see the Koreans perform well, but rather that other than Korea, we still aren't set up to par.
I really hope that in the next event, the foreigners will be able to change the way they practice and perform better in the future. As for the person who had the really long post, I think you're looking at the way they practice the wrong way. Personally, IF western players do want to get better through practice, I think they should think about practicing the way Koreans do. If it doesn't appeal to them, then that's that. There isn't any sort of pressure at the moment in western culture to do their best at the moment, and that could go the same for Koreans in most cases. But if they want to perform well, then they do. Do you think that Koreans practicing 10~14 hours a day hate what they do? Unless they put on a good poker face, I'd say most of them enjoy what they do and want to perform better, and it seems to pay off.
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On August 07 2011 01:04 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 00:59 brachester wrote:On August 07 2011 00:55 Cadgers wrote:
I pray we don't end up in the same state as WC3 (a couple of top foreigners and the rest Asians) Consider it is lucky, because with this pace, there will be now foreingers at all, sc2 is still new and korean are already dominating sc2 scene. You know, when America was new, the British were dominating. What is true now, at this very moment, is not necessarily true in 10 years. That applies to everything.
That is true but just because one thing changes doesn't mean something that is completely unrelated has to change in the same way. Try to consider context.
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the difference between foreign and korean players has nothing to do with time spent practicing ala work ethic, it is a straight difference is mathematic tactics, the koreans attempt to move out early and micro a win off their enemy, when playing foreigners this appears to simply be "cheese" whereas the foreign players choose a more turn-based style of strategy play get an army before you move out and ability to re-max....
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On August 07 2011 02:35 Sgonzo wrote:
the difference between foreign and korean players has nothing to do with time spent practicing ala work ethic, it is a straight difference is mathematic tactics, the koreans attempt to move out early and micro a win off their enemy, when playing foreigners this appears to simply be "cheese" whereas the foreign players choose a more turn-based style of strategy play get an army before you move out and ability to re-max....
Then why does every pro player believe the biggest difference is time spent working?
Are you saying you are more knowledgable of sc2 than all of them? Than Koreans?
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On August 07 2011 02:10 Chairman Ray wrote:
Foreigners need to get better looking as well.
ZING!
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It's not as easy for foreign players to practice as much as Koreans because everything's so spread out, meaning higher travel costs, meaning more working hours, meaning less practice.
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Foreigners will not catch up to the Koreans.
We just don't have the same work ethic as they do in the east. Sure, a few will breakthrough, but the vast majority will be Koreans.
If they're not practicing now, or if they are, if they're not as good as the Koreans now, what makes people think they will be in the future. Surely it's up to the managers to create team houses as well as kick out stagnant players and recruit talent.
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On August 07 2011 00:50 Jacko11 wrote:
Its nothing that hasn't already been said by many others. No one wants another SCBW skill gap.
pretty much.
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On August 07 2011 01:04 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 00:59 brachester wrote:On August 07 2011 00:55 Cadgers wrote:
I pray we don't end up in the same state as WC3 (a couple of top foreigners and the rest Asians) Consider it is lucky, because with this pace, there will be now foreingers at all, sc2 is still new and korean are already dominating sc2 scene. You know, when America was new, the British were dominating. What is true now, at this very moment, is not necessarily true in 10 years. That applies to everything.
The Led Zeppelin came.
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With people like Drewbie, incontrol, haypro and some other lower tier players (no offence to those guys) we may have seen some better results. The Koreans are basically given a free pass to win MLG being invited directly into pool play.
Think how things may have changed if white-ra didn't have to go through the open bracket, or if some other noteable foreigners were playing other then some of the lowers skilled NA/EU players.
But ya, foreigners are going to have to pick up the pace or be left behind, without coveted spots on pro-teams. Koreans are not only taking tournament money, if things don't change they will also be taking jobs.
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On August 07 2011 01:05 gwaihir wrote:
thats what i always say.....
its simple math.....12-14 practice mostly everyday is simple a bigger number than 4-8 hours very unfrequently....it just pays off....(ofc stupid mass gaming doesnt help, please keep in mind i include the professional practice atmosphere in korean teamhouses here)
the foreigners need teams that act more strict to practice...there are some teams that have contracts which include some hours they must play per day/week ....but thats just a joke because its not that much...if they really want to compete with the best, they need to train like the best and stop slacking...
there are really horrible examples how too less practice brings you down. like tyler for example which always excuses his slumps with things like "i didnt practice enough" "i should practice more"...but most of the time he just keeps excusing instead of starting to practice a lot ^^ (ofc he is really excused in some way way (marriage and stuff) )
thats why naniwa fits so perfect into the korean scene. hes a workaholic at starcraft and he will defenitly use his time in korea to get maximum results in terms of skill
Problem with Naniwa is that he tilts easily, sort of like Idra. I hope Naniwa does well in Korea but I think Thorzain is the better hope for a foreigner to reach Idra's and Huk's level.
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It will be interesting to see how the EG Teamhouse affects the foreigner SC2 scene. If we see success from EG in the future you can rest assured that other teams will follow their lead. Once that happens it will probably even out a bit, but it certainly won't be an easy run to catch up with the koreans who are really showing of some insanely impressive results.
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On August 07 2011 03:08 ShaneFreeze wrote:
It will be interesting to see how the EG Teamhouse affects the foreigner SC2 scene. If we see success from EG in the future you can rest assured that other teams will follow their lead. Once that happens it will probably even out a bit, but it certainly won't be an easy run to catch up with the koreans who are really showing of some insanely impressive results.
I too hope for results from the house, but I fear it will still be a casual atmosphere. Practice for a few hours a day and then it's GTL.
Who knows, maybe Anna will whip them into shape, or be part of the problem
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I think it's rubbish to claim spectatorship will get stale if Koreans win everything. Do people in Europe stop watching basketball because America always dominates? Do people in India not watch football because they never win? I don't buy that logic at all.
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I for one, am glad that Koreans are dominating foreigners like how it was back in Broodwar
A lot of people who visit teamliquid now are people that never followed the BW scene, or just played BW for a couple of years and never picked it up again until SC2 came out. They never realized how much the scene has evolved since then and how how far the foreigners fell behind. Look at recent WCGs - Koreans are saying the foreigners are like playing like the computer (AI)
The fact of the matter is, Koreans are just better than foreigners when it comes to the amount of work and dedication they put in.
Look at all the players that have experienced Korean training or have lived in Korea/are currently playing in Korea. Do you think it's a fluke that all these players are ahead of players that have had no experience to the Korean training style?
And I think this is good for the game. I always root for Koreans because I want the better player to win, Korean or not. Better players always make for better games because the level of play is so much more refined, the potential of a race is being explored and build orders are being pushed to the limits, relying on the thinest of timings. In short, I want players to win because they are more skilled than their opponent, rather than their opponent being bad, if that makes sense
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Well, hasn't this been said for the past six months? When you have upper tier players like Idra and Tyler saying "Yeah, I've lost the last five tournaments, but it's because I haven't practiced more than 3 hours a day for a while" you're got a problem somewhere. Be it in motivation (where I'm pretty sure most of it lies) or living situation or medical problems or just plain laziness, every response from another community presence (JP, Day9, anyone really) is "You just gotta practice more."
I've always thought of it like this. Idra said on State of the Game one episode that mechanics are so easy now that the "better player" in terms of mechanics doesn't necessarily win. That has changed Starcraft 2 into a game where once you get your mechanics down, it's all about strategy. If you're good enough to become a pro one day, six months of playing will probably get you those mechanics that'll keep you going in the tourneys. But you have to keep playing to think of strategies and get army confrontations down and think the game through once you've reached that mid game stretch. I don't care how many titles you won in Starcraft, only so much theorycraft will make up for practice.
Koreans practice more on average than foreigners. That's a fact I doubt anyone would debate. But they're not necessarily getting those mechanics so far beyond us that we can't just keep up; they're getting that strategic part of the game so far beyond us that we don't even know how to counter their plays. It's like Slayers ambushing zergs with the Blue Flame Hellion/Marine medivac lift at MLG, except every tourney every game every time.
TL;DR: Practice more, and your mechanics might not necessarily sky rocket past everyone else's, but your understanding of strategy is. And that's what Starcraft 2 hinges it's games on.
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Koreans dominated broodwar because they played in a compact place with top players playing each other for a long extensive of time. Now, with starcraft II they're doing the same thing it's no brainer that they're still the top
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On August 07 2011 03:15 StorkHwaiting wrote:
I think it's rubbish to claim spectatorship will get stale if Koreans win everything. Do people in Europe stop watching basketball because America always dominates? Do people in India not watch football because they never win? I don't buy that logic at all.
While this may be true, those types of events only happen like once a year. SC2 has a big name tournament once a month or so.
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It's hard for foreigners to compete, most people can only play a few hours a day...and it isn't really socially acceptable that you play 12 hours a day outside of Korea...I doubt the skill gap will shrink at all unfortunately 
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On August 07 2011 03:29 Jesushooves wrote:It's hard for foreigners to compete, most people can only play a few hours a day...and it isn't really socially acceptable that you play 12 hours a day outside of Korea...I doubt the skill gap will shrink at all unfortunately
It wasn't initially socially acceptable to do that in Korea either. It still isn't 100% acceptable either. Parents in Korea still want their kids to be doctors and lawyers or to go to SNU.
The problem is that the foreign pros want to live like the Korean's, playing Starcraft for a living, yet they won't do the work that is require to lead that lifestyle.
They shouldn't be rewarded for doing worse, it's just not fair for the Koreans or the spectators who want to watch the highest level of play.
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On August 07 2011 03:23 magnaflow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 03:15 StorkHwaiting wrote:
I think it's rubbish to claim spectatorship will get stale if Koreans win everything. Do people in Europe stop watching basketball because America always dominates? Do people in India not watch football because they never win? I don't buy that logic at all. While this may be true, those types of events only happen like once a year. SC2 has a big name tournament once a month or so.
Basketball games are played every day... So are soccer matches...
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On August 07 2011 03:41 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 03:23 magnaflow wrote:On August 07 2011 03:15 StorkHwaiting wrote:
I think it's rubbish to claim spectatorship will get stale if Koreans win everything. Do people in Europe stop watching basketball because America always dominates? Do people in India not watch football because they never win? I don't buy that logic at all. While this may be true, those types of events only happen like once a year. SC2 has a big name tournament once a month or so. Basketball games are played every day... So are soccer matches...
Ahh sorry, i thought you we're refering to the olympics or something.
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On August 07 2011 03:46 magnaflow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 03:41 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 07 2011 03:23 magnaflow wrote:On August 07 2011 03:15 StorkHwaiting wrote:
I think it's rubbish to claim spectatorship will get stale if Koreans win everything. Do people in Europe stop watching basketball because America always dominates? Do people in India not watch football because they never win? I don't buy that logic at all. While this may be true, those types of events only happen like once a year. SC2 has a big name tournament once a month or so. Basketball games are played every day... So are soccer matches... Ahh sorry, i thought you we're refering to the olympics or something.
That's what I mean though. People in India will watch Manchester U. People in Slovenia will watch Lakers games. People aren't really as racist/nationalistic as to say they won't be interested if someone from their own country/race isn't the one winning.
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Not convinced that Slovenia is a growing NBA market. People like to see one of their own having success at high levels of competition. It's good for the sport and encourages others to partake int it.
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I hate the idea that tournaments are boring just because a korean wins them. People with that attitude are just spoiled. I'm willing to bet nobody who followed the brood war scene thought a tournament was boring just because "another korean won".
Koreans are people too. It's not like they're just machines. A lot of work and practice goes into them winning stuff, and they deserve just as much respect and admiration as foreigners do.
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea.
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So you're not afraid of tournaments becoming boring because of first places being occupied solely by Koreans?
No, it's very exciting.
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On August 07 2011 03:58 TedJustice wrote:
I hate the idea that tournaments are boring just because a korean wins them. People with that attitude are just spoiled. I'm willing to bet nobody who followed the brood war scene thought a tournament was boring just because "another korean won".
Koreans are people too. It's not like they're just machines. A lot of work and practice goes into them winning stuff, and they deserve just as much respect and admiration as foreigners do.
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea.
I agree. I'll gladly pay money to watch tournaments with players like MVP and Nestea rather than some foreigners(not all) who are not as good. I'll watch both if I can, but if I had to choose, I'll pick players who are more skilled every time.
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I think a lot of the problems stem from the fact that foreign players have so much opportunity to make money doing anything but practicing.
How many top players in NA and Europe are making money streaming, broadcasting, doing shows, and being popular rather than practicing?
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On August 07 2011 03:29 Jesushooves wrote:It's hard for foreigners to compete, most people can only play a few hours a day...and it isn't really socially acceptable that you play 12 hours a day outside of Korea...I doubt the skill gap will shrink at all unfortunately
I don't understand hoiw someone might want to make a living out of something (in this case, playing a videogame) a dedicate only a few hours of their day to this activity.
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On August 07 2011 04:14 FuTon wrote:Show nested quote +So you're not afraid of tournaments becoming boring because of first places being occupied solely by Koreans? No, it's very exciting.
yeah i dont give a shit either. its nice to have foreigners doing well and im psyched to see people like naniwa and huk so eager to prove themselves to the koreans on their home turf, but at the end of the day i just want to watch the best players, regardless of where theyre from.
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I disagree with Bitter when he thinks that koreans placing high will make it stale for the spectator. Atleast that is not true for me as I think having koreans do well makes it more enjoyable for me to watch high level play. If it was just foreigners battling it out I would not watch at all. The reason I don`t follow any of the IPL.
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On August 07 2011 03:58 TedJustice wrote:
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea.
I don't see what the big deal is about wanting someone from your country to win. Stating that you don't care is certainly your prerogative, as it is someone else's to feel the contrary.
On another note, I feel that it is quite ridiculous that some put forth the argument that if your interest in a sport wades as it is dominated by X country means you don't like that sport. International hockey is dominated by three teams mostly, and it's boring. Boring. Boring. Boring. Women's hockey is worst: it's basically Canada vs USA. Boring. Boring. Boring. When a sport is completely dominated by one country... well.
I dislike those who will say that I don't like hockey because of what I feel the international sport scene is. Same thing for SC2.
I also dislike those who impose upon others a criteria of what it means to be a fan of a certain sport because I don't agree with their point of view; ie: you find tournaments boring because Koreans always wins, that means you don't like SC2; uninstall. That is not an argument. It's imposing your point of view on others.
Food for thought.
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On August 07 2011 01:04 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 00:59 brachester wrote:On August 07 2011 00:55 Cadgers wrote:
I pray we don't end up in the same state as WC3 (a couple of top foreigners and the rest Asians) Consider it is lucky, because with this pace, there will be now foreingers at all, sc2 is still new and korean are already dominating sc2 scene. You know, when America was new, the British were dominating. What is true now, at this very moment, is not necessarily true in 10 years. That applies to everything.
Actually, America had just kicked Britian's ass... so they weren't doing to well.
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On August 07 2011 04:28 Premier wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 01:04 Chargelot wrote:On August 07 2011 00:59 brachester wrote:On August 07 2011 00:55 Cadgers wrote:
I pray we don't end up in the same state as WC3 (a couple of top foreigners and the rest Asians) Consider it is lucky, because with this pace, there will be now foreingers at all, sc2 is still new and korean are already dominating sc2 scene. sc2 is still new You know, when America was new, the British were dominating. What is true now, at this very moment, is not necessarily true in 10 years. That applies to everything. Actually, America had just kicked Britian's ass... so they weren't doing to well.
This sub-thread is ridiculous and off topic.
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All you guys saying, "Well I would watch Koreans place Top 6 at every tournament" are being ignorant of what SC2 needs to grow in the Western scene, as well as be sustained in the Western scene. Koreans placing top at every tournament is going to kill SC2 growth outside of Korea, no doubt about it. It might take longer than it did for BW, but unless some foreigners decide they're actually going to commit to this game and place high consistently, we're just going to see SC2 invert back to Korea within the next 3 or so years. MLG will move on once spectator interest dwindles, which it will if Koreans all kill every event.
tldr - Foreigners step it the fuck up.
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On August 07 2011 04:26 Iberville wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 03:58 TedJustice wrote:
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea. I don't see what the big deal is about wanting someone from your country to win. Stating that you don't care is certainly your prerogative, as it is someone else's to feel the contrary. On another note, I feel that it is quite ridiculous that some put forth the argument that if your interest in a sport wades as it is dominated by X country means you don't like that sport. International hockey is dominated by three teams mostly, and it's boring. Boring. Boring. Boring. Women's hockey is worst: it's basically Canada vs USA. Boring. Boring. Boring. When a sport is completely dominated by one country... well. I dislike those who will say that I don't like hockey because of what I feel the international sport scene is. Same thing for SC2. I also dislike those who impose upon others a criteria of what it means to be a fan of a certain sport because I don't agree with their point of view; ie: you find tournaments boring because Koreans always wins, that means you don't like SC2; uninstall. That is not an argument. It's imposing your point of view on others. Food for thought.
That's fine and dandy, but your country isn't "non-korea". It's silly that people will root for every foreigner, even ones that aren't from their country, but not koreans.
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On August 07 2011 04:46 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 04:26 Iberville wrote:On August 07 2011 03:58 TedJustice wrote:
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea. I don't see what the big deal is about wanting someone from your country to win. Stating that you don't care is certainly your prerogative, as it is someone else's to feel the contrary. On another note, I feel that it is quite ridiculous that some put forth the argument that if your interest in a sport wades as it is dominated by X country means you don't like that sport. International hockey is dominated by three teams mostly, and it's boring. Boring. Boring. Boring. Women's hockey is worst: it's basically Canada vs USA. Boring. Boring. Boring. When a sport is completely dominated by one country... well. I dislike those who will say that I don't like hockey because of what I feel the international sport scene is. Same thing for SC2. I also dislike those who impose upon others a criteria of what it means to be a fan of a certain sport because I don't agree with their point of view; ie: you find tournaments boring because Koreans always wins, that means you don't like SC2; uninstall. That is not an argument. It's imposing your point of view on others. Food for thought. That's fine and dandy, but your country isn't "non-korea". It's silly that people will root for every foreigner, even ones that aren't from their country, but not koreans.
I didn't say what you're insinuating.
I also don't understand what you mean by "my country isn't 'non-korea'." Although a sentence, it makes no sense. I dislike the word "foreigner", which to me is relative, hence why I prefer to specify by saying "not-this-place".
Also something else to think about : not everyone is a hardcore SC2/BW game watcher. Not everyone wakes up at 5 am to watch GSL, not everyone knows the scene. When you're trying to grow the sport, you're trying to bring new people who are ignorant. I'm not saying that Korean players don't help grow the sport (some seem to think that's what I'm writing, which, again, is ridiculous), but stimulating local growth is, however, a great way to help expose a sport and make it grow.
I also like how nobody seemed to care about the labour question. Shows how young the crowd is in here.
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Foreigners don't have to pick up their game to stop the scene from dwindling. So long as the Koreans continue to travel to these events, people will watch them online, and people will show up to watch them live.Bring Nestea to an MLG and tell me that the viewers on stream won't break MLG records, and attendance at the event itself won't increase. Hell, the only reason I paid for my MLG pass is because the games have got more exciting with the higher-tier players from Korea being invited to play.
Most foreigners simply do not practice enough to show off exciting games, and a tournament without any top-tier players (see: Korea + a few select foreigners) just isn't worth the money. Compared to Koreans, foreigner games look like Gold matches where both sides max to 200/200 then throw their armies at each other until one guy GG's, and that's not exciting (in fact, early in SC2 inControl had some major success against Zerg specifically by doing NOTHING but bluffing attacks until he maxed out, and now look at him). Now, I'm certain they could kick my ass, but I'm speaking in relative terms here, games by foreigners look amateur compared to the games that the Koreans, and a few select foreigners put together. Yes, they have to get better if they want to compete to win, but so long as the Korean players are actually traveling to the foreign tournaments, they will still draw viewers, because more than anything, spectators want to see the BEST compete.
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People should stop comparing Starcraft with team sport.
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On August 07 2011 05:01 Nemireck wrote:
Foreigners don't have to pick up their game to stop the scene from dwindling. So long as the Koreans continue to travel to these events, people will watch them online, and people will show up to watch them live.Bring Nestea to an MLG and tell me that the viewers on stream won't break MLG records, and attendance at the event itself won't increase. Hell, the only reason I paid for my MLG pass is because the games have got more exciting with the higher-tier players from Korea being invited to play.
Most foreigners simply do not practice enough to show off exciting games, and a tournament without any top-tier players (see: Korea + a few select foreigners) just isn't worth the money. Compared to Koreans, foreigner games look like Gold matches where both sides max to 200/200 then throw their armies at each other until one guy GG's, and that's not exciting (in fact, early in SC2 inControl had some major success against Zerg specifically by doing NOTHING but bluffing attacks until he maxed out, and now look at him). Now, I'm certain they could kick my ass, but I'm speaking in relative terms here, games by foreigners look amateur compared to the games that the Koreans, and a few select foreigners put together. Yes, they have to get better if they want to compete to win, but so long as the Korean players are actually traveling to the foreign tournaments, they will still draw viewers, because more than anything, spectators want to see the BEST compete.
This is speculation. Although perhaps accurate. It's "spittin' truth" without it being true.
On August 07 2011 05:02 MrKn4rz wrote:
People should stop comparing Starcraft with team sport.
This is an interesting point.
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So you're not afraid of tournaments becoming boring because of first places being occupied solely by Koreans? We have seen a glimpse of that in recent weeks.
I'm terrified of this possibility because it would make the spectator's experience stale in my opinion.
I've never understood this concern. There are far more exciting narratives than just 'can guy from country A beat guy from country B'. I mean, had Boxer won MLG the audience would have gone absolutely bonkers. Would that have been a staler spectator experience than if Huk, a code S player and the arguable favorite after MVP, had won it? I don't believe so. You could say that Boxer is different, but why should he be? Every player has a personal story that's just as capable of capturing an audience's enthusiasm as the flag next his name. More capable, actually.
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On August 07 2011 00:58 brachester wrote:
it's not about being a korean or not, it's all about the amount of time the foreinger players willing to sacrifice to practice. In korea and asian cultures in general, gaming is still not as accepted as in the western but it still has much stronger gaming teams and players. It's is because these players are willing to play at a professional level, they are willing to risk their future, some may even oppose their parents and friends to play starcraft 2. The foreingers must step up their attitude toward esport or else, they will never catch up. Even some lower level players in korea are more hardworking than most of the top foreginer i know.
Gaming, especially Starcraft, is quite accepted in Korea. Nearly every young dude has played SC at one point or another. Lim Yo Hwan and Kim Taek Young are nearly household names. You can meet up with your friends after a weekend, ask what everyone did, and say you spent the weekend playing games and not be considered a nerd. There's much less stigma in Korea than in the states.
You really have no idea what you're talking about... -_-
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with foreign team houses and koreans to train with, that should give foreigners what they need to keep up, something they didn't have in Broodwar
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On August 07 2011 00:58 brachester wrote:
... In korea and asian cultures in general, gaming is still not as accepted as in the western but it still has much stronger gaming teams and players...
I'd have to disagree here. At least in much of the US, I get the impression that while gaming is for the most part not just accepted but even reaching the point where it's expected as a hobby, very few people would ever imagine or accept that it's an acceptable professional career goal. Obviously MLG has drawn pretty big crowds, but that's for events only every couple months, so there's no comparison even to basketball or hockey (soccer may even be a bigger draw).
Also, "for the most part". I live in a house with a couple guys, and we had a couple summer roommates as well. All of them have seen me watching pro or tourney streams, and most are impressed by the skill level - but only one of them plays SC, and I (silver/bronze league, usually not more than 5-10 games a week) am much much better than he is.
I obviously can't speak to Europe as much.
But the point is, "accepted" or not, Korean culture has clearly adjusted to the idea of professional gaming being a more-or-less legitimate "thing" in ways the US at least can only envy - even if the average Korean teen gets in far more trouble for "wasting money" on games than the US teen would.
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I think that these western teams really need to get COACHES! You could say "Well, they already know what they are doing why do they need a coach?". Right there is where the problem lays. Even people that play at the highest tiers of play do stupid things or get stuck in bad habits.
Look at major sports. They all have multiple coaches there telling them what to fix, how to fix it, and their progress on how well they are making the adjustments. In the Western SC2 scene, I don't see any of that....and our players aren't really improving, no matter how much practice they get.
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On August 07 2011 04:53 Iberville wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 04:46 TedJustice wrote:On August 07 2011 04:26 Iberville wrote:On August 07 2011 03:58 TedJustice wrote:
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea. I don't see what the big deal is about wanting someone from your country to win. Stating that you don't care is certainly your prerogative, as it is someone else's to feel the contrary. On another note, I feel that it is quite ridiculous that some put forth the argument that if your interest in a sport wades as it is dominated by X country means you don't like that sport. International hockey is dominated by three teams mostly, and it's boring. Boring. Boring. Boring. Women's hockey is worst: it's basically Canada vs USA. Boring. Boring. Boring. When a sport is completely dominated by one country... well. I dislike those who will say that I don't like hockey because of what I feel the international sport scene is. Same thing for SC2. I also dislike those who impose upon others a criteria of what it means to be a fan of a certain sport because I don't agree with their point of view; ie: you find tournaments boring because Koreans always wins, that means you don't like SC2; uninstall. That is not an argument. It's imposing your point of view on others. Food for thought. That's fine and dandy, but your country isn't "non-korea". It's silly that people will root for every foreigner, even ones that aren't from their country, but not koreans. I didn't say what you're insinuating. I also don't understand what you mean by "my country isn't 'non-korea'." Although a sentence, it makes no sense. I dislike the word "foreigner", which to me is relative, hence why I prefer to specify by saying "not-this-place". Also something else to think about : not everyone is a hardcore SC2/BW game watcher. Not everyone wakes up at 5 am to watch GSL, not everyone knows the scene. When you're trying to grow the sport, you're trying to bring new people who are ignorant. I'm not saying that Korean players don't help grow the sport (some seem to think that's what I'm writing, which, again, is ridiculous), but stimulating local growth is, however, a great way to help expose a sport and make it grow. I also like how nobody seemed to care about the labour question. Shows how young the crowd is in here.
Ummm no, your entire point in regards to labour conditions simply makes no sense. I can't claim to understand the entirety of your experience, but cramped living conditions and multi-family housing is an incredibly common phenomenon in Asian countries, to the point where bunking 4-6 people in a single room is simply the price one pays for living in one of a handful of cities that can claim the most intense population density in the world. Furthermore, the mere fact that professional gaming presents itself as a possible option to those who have the skill or dedication probably strongly affects the decision-making of prospective players, especially in Korea. I realize that you may think you are acting as some sort of advocate for these players, but what have the players themselves said? Although this last point does indeed boil down to conjecture (which is, I may add, what your indictment of living conditions on the players behalf is as well), I can guarantee that given possible living/career options the vast majority of Korean players who live in cramped team house situations would have it no other way, they are able to play the game they love and get better.
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On August 07 2011 05:17 shockaslim wrote:
I think that these western teams really need to get COACHES! You could say "Well, they already know what they are doing why do they need a coach?". Right there is where the problem lays. Even people that play at the highest tiers of play do stupid things or get stuck in bad habits.
Look at major sports. They all have multiple coaches there telling them what to fix, how to fix it, and their progress on how well they are making the adjustments. In the Western SC2 scene, I don't see any of that....and our players aren't really improving, no matter how much practice they get.
They are steadily improving, if you compare their game to 2 months ago, you clearly see the difference. It's just in comparison to the koreans, they progress slower.
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On August 07 2011 05:07 Rococo wrote:Show nested quote +So you're not afraid of tournaments becoming boring because of first places being occupied solely by Koreans? We have seen a glimpse of that in recent weeks.
I'm terrified of this possibility because it would make the spectator's experience stale in my opinion. I've never understood this concern. There are far more exciting narratives than just 'can guy from country A beat guy from country B'. I mean, had Boxer won MLG the audience would have gone absolutely bonkers. Would that have been a staler spectator experience than if Huk, a code S player and the arguable favorite after MVP, had won it? I don't believe so. You could say that Boxer is different, but why should he be? Every player has a personal story that's just as capable of capturing an audience's enthusiasm as the flag next his name. More capable, actually.
For most hardcore players that are 1) capable of understanding the nuances of skilled played and 2) appreciate that above all else, it doesn't matter what nation the player comes from as long as they're good. For the casual player or even non-player, they are looking for generally good players that they can relate to. For example, the GSL's outreach program with MLG is a prime example of MLG recognizing the need to cater to the second audience as well as the first in order to grow.
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On August 07 2011 05:20 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 05:17 shockaslim wrote:
I think that these western teams really need to get COACHES! You could say "Well, they already know what they are doing why do they need a coach?". Right there is where the problem lays. Even people that play at the highest tiers of play do stupid things or get stuck in bad habits.
Look at major sports. They all have multiple coaches there telling them what to fix, how to fix it, and their progress on how well they are making the adjustments. In the Western SC2 scene, I don't see any of that....and our players aren't really improving, no matter how much practice they get. They are steadily improving, if you compare their game to 2 months ago, you clearly see the difference. It's just in comparison to the koreans, they progress slower.
I think having Coaches is one of the neccessary steps in order to keep up. There is a reason the korean teams all have Coaches. They just know how stuff works after 10 years of BW.
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On August 07 2011 01:12 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 01:00 JustPassingBy wrote:
Maybe it's not only the players which are lacking, but also the teams.
Not many foreign teams can provide their players with the excellend practise conditions that are in Korea (team house and dedicated coach). New Star HoSeo their practice house is a room in their school yet they somehow are the first on the team league. You don't need that much as people like to claim it seems.
Newstar hoseo still has rooms for them to sleep in as well, sure its in a school but i think their practice room is actually alot bigger then most of the apartment pro house practice rooms. I dont really see your point.
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On August 07 2011 05:17 shockaslim wrote:
I think that these western teams really need to get COACHES! You could say "Well, they already know what they are doing why do they need a coach?". Right there is where the problem lays. Even people that play at the highest tiers of play do stupid things or get stuck in bad habits.
Look at major sports. They all have multiple coaches there telling them what to fix, how to fix it, and their progress on how well they are making the adjustments. In the Western SC2 scene, I don't see any of that....and our players aren't really improving, no matter how much practice they get.
I totally agree with this, i think that is one of the huge differences between the west and korea. All the teams in korea have 1 maybe 2 coaches (some are players) and they are dedicated to helping their players improve and help them through mental barriers when they are in the booth etc.
If your on any sort of proffesional team, you need a coach its plain and simple.
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On August 07 2011 05:21 Kambing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 05:07 Rococo wrote:So you're not afraid of tournaments becoming boring because of first places being occupied solely by Koreans? We have seen a glimpse of that in recent weeks.
I'm terrified of this possibility because it would make the spectator's experience stale in my opinion. I've never understood this concern. There are far more exciting narratives than just 'can guy from country A beat guy from country B'. I mean, had Boxer won MLG the audience would have gone absolutely bonkers. Would that have been a staler spectator experience than if Huk, a code S player and the arguable favorite after MVP, had won it? I don't believe so. You could say that Boxer is different, but why should he be? Every player has a personal story that's just as capable of capturing an audience's enthusiasm as the flag next his name. More capable, actually. For most hardcore players that are 1) capable of understanding the nuances of skilled played and 2) appreciate that above all else, it doesn't matter what nation the player comes from as long as they're good. For the casual player or even non-player, they are looking for generally good players that they can relate to. For example, the GSL's outreach program with MLG is a prime example of MLG recognizing the need to cater to the second audience as well as the first in order to grow.
My point was that individual player personalities and stories should take precedence over the 'Korea versus the World' narrative that the SC2 community has been focusing on since its launch. You're talking about something a bit different, which is languages and cultural barriers preventing audiences from empathizing with players. Those aren't exclusive to Koreans.
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On August 07 2011 05:18 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 04:53 Iberville wrote:On August 07 2011 04:46 TedJustice wrote:On August 07 2011 04:26 Iberville wrote:On August 07 2011 03:58 TedJustice wrote:
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea. I don't see what the big deal is about wanting someone from your country to win. Stating that you don't care is certainly your prerogative, as it is someone else's to feel the contrary. On another note, I feel that it is quite ridiculous that some put forth the argument that if your interest in a sport wades as it is dominated by X country means you don't like that sport. International hockey is dominated by three teams mostly, and it's boring. Boring. Boring. Boring. Women's hockey is worst: it's basically Canada vs USA. Boring. Boring. Boring. When a sport is completely dominated by one country... well. I dislike those who will say that I don't like hockey because of what I feel the international sport scene is. Same thing for SC2. I also dislike those who impose upon others a criteria of what it means to be a fan of a certain sport because I don't agree with their point of view; ie: you find tournaments boring because Koreans always wins, that means you don't like SC2; uninstall. That is not an argument. It's imposing your point of view on others. Food for thought. That's fine and dandy, but your country isn't "non-korea". It's silly that people will root for every foreigner, even ones that aren't from their country, but not koreans. I didn't say what you're insinuating. I also don't understand what you mean by "my country isn't 'non-korea'." Although a sentence, it makes no sense. I dislike the word "foreigner", which to me is relative, hence why I prefer to specify by saying "not-this-place". Also something else to think about : not everyone is a hardcore SC2/BW game watcher. Not everyone wakes up at 5 am to watch GSL, not everyone knows the scene. When you're trying to grow the sport, you're trying to bring new people who are ignorant. I'm not saying that Korean players don't help grow the sport (some seem to think that's what I'm writing, which, again, is ridiculous), but stimulating local growth is, however, a great way to help expose a sport and make it grow. I also like how nobody seemed to care about the labour question. Shows how young the crowd is in here. Ummm no, your entire point in regards to labour conditions simply makes no sense. I can't claim to understand the entirety of your experience, but cramped living conditions and multi-family housing is an incredibly common phenomenon in Asian countries, to the point where bunking 4-6 people in a single room is simply the price one pays for living in one of a handful of cities that can claim the most intense population density in the world. Furthermore, the mere fact that professional gaming presents itself as a possible option to those who have the skill or dedication probably strongly affects the decision-making of prospective players, especially in Korea. I realize that you may think you are acting as some sort of advocate for these players, but what have the players themselves said? Although this last point does indeed boil down to conjecture (which is, I may add, what your indictment of living conditions on the players behalf is as well), I can guarantee that given possible living/career options the vast majority of Korean players who live in cramped team house situations would have it no other way, they are able to play the game they love and get better.
Out of curiosity, where are you from?
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I will always root for the players that bring the best games regardless of nationality or origin.
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On August 07 2011 06:01 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 05:18 farvacola wrote:On August 07 2011 04:53 Iberville wrote:On August 07 2011 04:46 TedJustice wrote:On August 07 2011 04:26 Iberville wrote:On August 07 2011 03:58 TedJustice wrote:
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea. I don't see what the big deal is about wanting someone from your country to win. Stating that you don't care is certainly your prerogative, as it is someone else's to feel the contrary. On another note, I feel that it is quite ridiculous that some put forth the argument that if your interest in a sport wades as it is dominated by X country means you don't like that sport. International hockey is dominated by three teams mostly, and it's boring. Boring. Boring. Boring. Women's hockey is worst: it's basically Canada vs USA. Boring. Boring. Boring. When a sport is completely dominated by one country... well. I dislike those who will say that I don't like hockey because of what I feel the international sport scene is. Same thing for SC2. I also dislike those who impose upon others a criteria of what it means to be a fan of a certain sport because I don't agree with their point of view; ie: you find tournaments boring because Koreans always wins, that means you don't like SC2; uninstall. That is not an argument. It's imposing your point of view on others. Food for thought. That's fine and dandy, but your country isn't "non-korea". It's silly that people will root for every foreigner, even ones that aren't from their country, but not koreans. I didn't say what you're insinuating. I also don't understand what you mean by "my country isn't 'non-korea'." Although a sentence, it makes no sense. I dislike the word "foreigner", which to me is relative, hence why I prefer to specify by saying "not-this-place". Also something else to think about : not everyone is a hardcore SC2/BW game watcher. Not everyone wakes up at 5 am to watch GSL, not everyone knows the scene. When you're trying to grow the sport, you're trying to bring new people who are ignorant. I'm not saying that Korean players don't help grow the sport (some seem to think that's what I'm writing, which, again, is ridiculous), but stimulating local growth is, however, a great way to help expose a sport and make it grow. I also like how nobody seemed to care about the labour question. Shows how young the crowd is in here. Ummm no, your entire point in regards to labour conditions simply makes no sense. I can't claim to understand the entirety of your experience, but cramped living conditions and multi-family housing is an incredibly common phenomenon in Asian countries, to the point where bunking 4-6 people in a single room is simply the price one pays for living in one of a handful of cities that can claim the most intense population density in the world. Furthermore, the mere fact that professional gaming presents itself as a possible option to those who have the skill or dedication probably strongly affects the decision-making of prospective players, especially in Korea. I realize that you may think you are acting as some sort of advocate for these players, but what have the players themselves said? Although this last point does indeed boil down to conjecture (which is, I may add, what your indictment of living conditions on the players behalf is as well), I can guarantee that given possible living/career options the vast majority of Korean players who live in cramped team house situations would have it no other way, they are able to play the game they love and get better. Out of curiosity, where are you from?
I was born and raised in the United States, but I lived in Seoul for 2 years contiguously in high school. At the risk of sounding like a cosmopolitan braggart, I have family in Tokyo, Guangzhou, and Busan, in addition to non Asian countries such as Columbia, Argentina, and Switzerland, and I've lived for months at a time in every place I've mentioned. I'm simply speaking from my experience and knowledge in regards to the cultural studies I undertook in college, I remember being quite surprised at how a lot of my Korean friends in Seoul lived with upwards of 5 people in single or double bedroom flats, only to be even more surprised at how little this mattered to them.
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On August 07 2011 05:12 PH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 00:58 brachester wrote:
it's not about being a korean or not, it's all about the amount of time the foreinger players willing to sacrifice to practice. In korea and asian cultures in general, gaming is still not as accepted as in the western but it still has much stronger gaming teams and players. It's is because these players are willing to play at a professional level, they are willing to risk their future, some may even oppose their parents and friends to play starcraft 2. The foreingers must step up their attitude toward esport or else, they will never catch up. Even some lower level players in korea are more hardworking than most of the top foreginer i know. Gaming, especially Starcraft, is quite accepted in Korea. Nearly every young dude has played SC at one point or another. Lim Yo Hwan and Kim Taek Young are nearly household names. You can meet up with your friends after a weekend, ask what everyone did, and say you spent the weekend playing games and not be considered a nerd. There's much less stigma in Korea than in the states. You really have no idea what you're talking about... -_-
I don't know about you, but you can say that here and not be considered a nerd. And if you are considered a nerd, it's usually done in a joking "lol what a nerd" fashion and not an "oh god, don't touch me nerd, it might be contagious" fashion.
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It's kinda obvious that the foreigners needs to pracc it up. They also have to do it fast before the cap is too big!
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As a spectactor and not a player, I couldn't care less who's on top (as far as nationalities good, I still have favourite players that I love rooting for).
But I understand that for the growth of eSports and for the international players or aspiring pros it would help if the foreign players could hold their own.
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On August 07 2011 06:46 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 05:12 PH wrote:On August 07 2011 00:58 brachester wrote:
it's not about being a korean or not, it's all about the amount of time the foreinger players willing to sacrifice to practice. In korea and asian cultures in general, gaming is still not as accepted as in the western but it still has much stronger gaming teams and players. It's is because these players are willing to play at a professional level, they are willing to risk their future, some may even oppose their parents and friends to play starcraft 2. The foreingers must step up their attitude toward esport or else, they will never catch up. Even some lower level players in korea are more hardworking than most of the top foreginer i know. Gaming, especially Starcraft, is quite accepted in Korea. Nearly every young dude has played SC at one point or another. Lim Yo Hwan and Kim Taek Young are nearly household names. You can meet up with your friends after a weekend, ask what everyone did, and say you spent the weekend playing games and not be considered a nerd. There's much less stigma in Korea than in the states. You really have no idea what you're talking about... -_- I don't know about you, but you can say that here and not be considered a nerd. And if you are considered a nerd, it's usually done in a joking "lol what a nerd" fashion and not an "oh god, don't touch me nerd, it might be contagious" fashion.
I think it's more like, in Korea you can go to a PC bang and play SC/SC2 and not feel like a nerd. Social stigma.
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its sad because if the skill gap grows to big like it did in BW esports will die in america. (by die i mean go back to how it was in BW days; not many tournaments and no press coverage. g4, ign, etc...) we dont need foreigners to be the best we just need there to be competition. no one likes to watch a walk over
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Maybe 12 weeks can help with that.
I've been saying for a long time that we should bring Koreans on the show. Maybe I can do that, and then the foreign pros will start watching.
:-)
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And people were worried that the skill cap would be to low in SC2. Lowering the skill gap is one way in which westerners can keep up, few people here will be willing to sacrifice their whole life to play 12 hours a day.
Actually Blizzard maybe should put in at time limit - no one is allowed to be on battlenet for more then 8 hours a day - that should keep the Koreans in check.
I know my suggestions are extreme and not very realistic, but if the Korean pull to far ahead E-sport will die. Not many casual viewers will care about a sport where 98% of the tournament winners are from just one country.
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i love how the fact that 90% of the interview was ignored and everyone focused on the last two questions of the interview rofl rofl i'm rofl. but anyways gogo mista bittea
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On August 07 2011 04:53 Iberville wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 04:46 TedJustice wrote:On August 07 2011 04:26 Iberville wrote:On August 07 2011 03:58 TedJustice wrote:
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea. I don't see what the big deal is about wanting someone from your country to win. Stating that you don't care is certainly your prerogative, as it is someone else's to feel the contrary. On another note, I feel that it is quite ridiculous that some put forth the argument that if your interest in a sport wades as it is dominated by X country means you don't like that sport. International hockey is dominated by three teams mostly, and it's boring. Boring. Boring. Boring. Women's hockey is worst: it's basically Canada vs USA. Boring. Boring. Boring. When a sport is completely dominated by one country... well. I dislike those who will say that I don't like hockey because of what I feel the international sport scene is. Same thing for SC2. I also dislike those who impose upon others a criteria of what it means to be a fan of a certain sport because I don't agree with their point of view; ie: you find tournaments boring because Koreans always wins, that means you don't like SC2; uninstall. That is not an argument. It's imposing your point of view on others. Food for thought. That's fine and dandy, but your country isn't "non-korea". It's silly that people will root for every foreigner, even ones that aren't from their country, but not koreans. I didn't say what you're insinuating. I also don't understand what you mean by "my country isn't 'non-korea'." Although a sentence, it makes no sense. I dislike the word "foreigner", which to me is relative, hence why I prefer to specify by saying "not-this-place". Also something else to think about : not everyone is a hardcore SC2/BW game watcher. Not everyone wakes up at 5 am to watch GSL, not everyone knows the scene. When you're trying to grow the sport, you're trying to bring new people who are ignorant. I'm not saying that Korean players don't help grow the sport (some seem to think that's what I'm writing, which, again, is ridiculous), but stimulating local growth is, however, a great way to help expose a sport and make it grow. I also like how nobody seemed to care about the labour question. Shows how young the crowd is in here.
STOP right there. I'll respond.
Your "young crowd" comment was insulting and uncalled for. And this is coming from me - a person who's not even a fan of the community at times due to the elitism that's prevalent here. Please don't make yourself look like some kind of elderly master and everyone else here is some child barely out of the womb.
Your whole schpiel about sweatshop conditions dating back to the Industrial Revolution, and how Korean team houses are mirroring those conditions, and how inhumane it is. And how foreigners shouldn't be copying Koreans because we'd be putting ourselves right back in the Middle Ages. The problem with all this is, you're missing the point entirely.
First of all, do you understand what it takes to be a winner?
You're against the top 0.01% of the most skilled gamers...in the world. Can you really say to yourself "I don't need to practice 12-14 hours a day"...when you know full well, that your competition is?
Picture yourself as a fledging golfer, and in a year's time, you'll be going up against Tiger Woods. How would you go about preparing yourself for such an event? Just a few hours of practice a day? When you know full well that Tiger Woods eats and breathes golf?
It has nothing to do with sweatshop conditions. Every single gamer who lives in those conditions is doing it for a reason, not because they are enslaved by someone and forced to chimney sweep for a few shillings a day.
Perhaps you should answer the question. What would it take, for foreigners to consistently win games off of the best Koreans? Or even approach a 50% win ratio?
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On August 07 2011 07:28 D_K_night wrote:
Perhaps you should answer the question. What would it take, for foreigners to consistently win games off of the best Koreans? Or even approach a 50% win ratio?
This question is quite easy to answer... and it's something that most likely non-Koreans will be ever able to possess... which simply is a fanatical, borderline recklessness passion to their craft. It's a combination of not only amazing work ethic, but also a huge desire to want to do what their doing.
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since when was cologne the place to be for esports outside korea?
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On August 07 2011 04:20 murkk wrote:
I think a lot of the problems stem from the fact that foreign players have so much opportunity to make money doing anything but practicing.
How many top players in NA and Europe are making money streaming, broadcasting, doing shows, and being popular rather than practicing?
This is true.The e-fame is ruining things they just get fame and be too ignorant about the actual game.Tlyer,Incontrol,TLO,Machine, how long can theses guys keep up with their horrible results.
and actually they get paid.god
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On August 07 2011 07:38 MorningMusume11 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 07:28 D_K_night wrote:
Perhaps you should answer the question. What would it take, for foreigners to consistently win games off of the best Koreans? Or even approach a 50% win ratio? This question is quite easy to answer... and it's something that most likely non-Koreans will be ever able to possess... which simply is a fanatical, borderline recklessness passion to their craft. It's a combination of not only amazing work ethic, but also a huge desire to want to do what their doing.
Why won't non-koreans ever posses it? Does it have to do with rice? You're saying non-koreans lack work ethics? That they lack desire? Bullshit.
Yes, without a doubt they need to step it up to compete, but you're implying that they are incapable which is flat out wrong. Look at events outside of Starcraft. Do you think athletes like Michael Jordan, Michel Phelps, or Lance Armstrong lack work ethics or passion? How about people in other professions? Wrong. They all have enormous mental strength and passion to get to where they are now. Starcraft in the "foreign scene" lacked that level of dedication because it wasn't possible to make a living off of in in SC1, SC2 is different and we need some truly dedicated individuals to show us some passion beyond what is necessary to propel e-sports forward. SC2 is possible to make a living off, but still isn't as profibitable as it should be. However, with our current "pioneer" progamers we can move the industry forward.
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I really like that the starcraft scene is evolving outside of korea, but it's a bit sad that players aren't able to compete unless they go to korea. I would really like if people would be able to train outside of korea without being at a disadvantage :S
MrBitter you're the man btw
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I think my main problem is that most Korean players don't speak any english at all, so when things have to go through a translator and the players are already very formal due to cultural differences it is often very hard to get any sense of their personalities, sure there are exceptions like MC or Boxer, but in general it is much easier to connect with foreign players.
I watch GSL and i really like it, but seeing Koreans dominate every major foreign tournament is simply not fun, i want foreigners to get better so they can really compete, but if i had to choose between an MLG where i knew that the 6 Koreans in the tournament would dominate, or watch something like Assembly where things were more unknown, i would pick Assembly.
I also think most people are vastly underestimating how much of Starcraft 2's popularity has to go with foreigners participating and hosting tournaments, Brood War was all Koreans all the time, and i think that was a large part in why it never became big outside Korea.
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On August 07 2011 06:26 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 06:01 Sein wrote:On August 07 2011 05:18 farvacola wrote:On August 07 2011 04:53 Iberville wrote:On August 07 2011 04:46 TedJustice wrote:On August 07 2011 04:26 Iberville wrote:On August 07 2011 03:58 TedJustice wrote:
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea. I don't see what the big deal is about wanting someone from your country to win. Stating that you don't care is certainly your prerogative, as it is someone else's to feel the contrary. On another note, I feel that it is quite ridiculous that some put forth the argument that if your interest in a sport wades as it is dominated by X country means you don't like that sport. International hockey is dominated by three teams mostly, and it's boring. Boring. Boring. Boring. Women's hockey is worst: it's basically Canada vs USA. Boring. Boring. Boring. When a sport is completely dominated by one country... well. I dislike those who will say that I don't like hockey because of what I feel the international sport scene is. Same thing for SC2. I also dislike those who impose upon others a criteria of what it means to be a fan of a certain sport because I don't agree with their point of view; ie: you find tournaments boring because Koreans always wins, that means you don't like SC2; uninstall. That is not an argument. It's imposing your point of view on others. Food for thought. That's fine and dandy, but your country isn't "non-korea". It's silly that people will root for every foreigner, even ones that aren't from their country, but not koreans. I didn't say what you're insinuating. I also don't understand what you mean by "my country isn't 'non-korea'." Although a sentence, it makes no sense. I dislike the word "foreigner", which to me is relative, hence why I prefer to specify by saying "not-this-place". Also something else to think about : not everyone is a hardcore SC2/BW game watcher. Not everyone wakes up at 5 am to watch GSL, not everyone knows the scene. When you're trying to grow the sport, you're trying to bring new people who are ignorant. I'm not saying that Korean players don't help grow the sport (some seem to think that's what I'm writing, which, again, is ridiculous), but stimulating local growth is, however, a great way to help expose a sport and make it grow. I also like how nobody seemed to care about the labour question. Shows how young the crowd is in here. Ummm no, your entire point in regards to labour conditions simply makes no sense. I can't claim to understand the entirety of your experience, but cramped living conditions and multi-family housing is an incredibly common phenomenon in Asian countries, to the point where bunking 4-6 people in a single room is simply the price one pays for living in one of a handful of cities that can claim the most intense population density in the world. Furthermore, the mere fact that professional gaming presents itself as a possible option to those who have the skill or dedication probably strongly affects the decision-making of prospective players, especially in Korea. I realize that you may think you are acting as some sort of advocate for these players, but what have the players themselves said? Although this last point does indeed boil down to conjecture (which is, I may add, what your indictment of living conditions on the players behalf is as well), I can guarantee that given possible living/career options the vast majority of Korean players who live in cramped team house situations would have it no other way, they are able to play the game they love and get better. Out of curiosity, where are you from? I was born and raised in the United States, but I lived in Seoul for 2 years contiguously in high school. At the risk of sounding like a cosmopolitan braggart, I have family in Tokyo, Guangzhou, and Busan, in addition to non Asian countries such as Columbia, Argentina, and Switzerland, and I've lived for months at a time in every place I've mentioned. I'm simply speaking from my experience and knowledge in regards to the cultural studies I undertook in college, I remember being quite surprised at how a lot of my Korean friends in Seoul lived with upwards of 5 people in single or double bedroom flats, only to be even more surprised at how little this mattered to them.
That's interesting. I lived in Seoul for over a decade and what you say doesn't really sound like what I remember. I was under the impression that the multi-generation family houses are rather rare in big cities like Seoul nowadays. Everyone I've known in Korea either had a room for him/herself or shared it with one other sibling. Not saying you're wrong, but just sharing my impressions from when I was over there.
Of course college dorms are a bit different, but then I'm pretty used to seeing triples/even quadriples in the American universities, so I haven't thought much about it.
In the army though, I've heard that you do share a big room with numerous other guys, although most of the starcraft progamers have not been in the army yet.
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Everyone knows this...I think the only foreign player that really has the drive to get to that level is NaNiwa though, everyone else just seems to be more interested in the community (money) side of things than truly improving and trying to be the best.
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On August 07 2011 13:02 Benga wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 04:20 murkk wrote:
I think a lot of the problems stem from the fact that foreign players have so much opportunity to make money doing anything but practicing.
How many top players in NA and Europe are making money streaming, broadcasting, doing shows, and being popular rather than practicing? This is true.The e-fame is ruining things they just get fame and be too ignorant about the actual game.Tlyer,Incontrol,TLO,Machine, how long can theses guys keep up with their horrible results. and actually they get paid.god
Sad, but I have to agree. I sometimes feel like we overhype some of the players. There are some that really deserve the hype (White-Ra, IdrA, SeleCT are few that come to my mind) but the rest, just are not showing the play yet.
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I think after a point even Koreans will get bored if they keep dominating everyone.
I mean hell, look at Womens Hockey. It is basically a three horse race: Canada, The US, and one of Sweden/Finland... but even then it is noncompetitive. The Canadian and American squads beat every other team by 20 goals, and the only entertaining game for me as a Canadian is the Finals.
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I get annoyed by these posts.
A few reality checks for people here:
There are TONS of people who manage to play SC2 10-12 hrs a day, 7 days a week. To say that these pro-gamers are struggling by doing so in a practice environment is a joke. Just about anybody who's playing at a high level plays 6-12 hrs a day BY CHOICE!
The only difference between pro gamers and the other 10% of SC2 players at the top level is that pro gamers are being sponsored by companies instead of their parents/significant other/trust fund/whatever.
I think people need to realize that these pro gamers are not athletes, they are nerds with a severe addiction like everyone else - it just so happens that they've been chosen to entertain the rest of us that don't have the luxury of playing 12 hours a day.
Also the reason Koreans are better than 'Foreigners' is because they have structured practice environments - They don't just log on and play games - they train against certain matchups/builds/mechanics/etc repetitively. I think that 'foreigners' have the ability to do the same thing but it's really something that you need to consciously do and I can see being a pro-team in a pro team house being beneficial to this cause.
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On August 07 2011 01:15 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 01:04 Chargelot wrote:On August 07 2011 00:59 brachester wrote:On August 07 2011 00:55 Cadgers wrote:
I pray we don't end up in the same state as WC3 (a couple of top foreigners and the rest Asians) Consider it is lucky, because with this pace, there will be now foreingers at all, sc2 is still new and korean are already dominating sc2 scene. sc2 is still new You know, when America was new, the British were dominating. What is true now, at this very moment, is not necessarily true in 10 years. That applies to everything. This doesn't make any sense.
Yes, it does. He's simply saying that what is the case at this moment is not necessarily the case in 10 years. We have no idea what happens in 10 years, and if you disagree with that you are quite simply incorrect. It could be the case that Sweden is totally dominating every other country in 10 years for all we know.
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On August 07 2011 17:02 iCanada wrote:
I think after a point even Koreans will get bored if they keep dominating everyone.
I mean hell, look at Womens Hockey. It is basically a three horse race: Canada, The US, and one of Sweden/Finland... but even then it is noncompetitive. The Canadian and American squads beat every other team by 20 goals, and the only entertaining game for me as a Canadian is the Finals.
Winning money must be boring.
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On August 07 2011 19:48 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 17:02 iCanada wrote:
I think after a point even Koreans will get bored if they keep dominating everyone.
I mean hell, look at Womens Hockey. It is basically a three horse race: Canada, The US, and one of Sweden/Finland... but even then it is noncompetitive. The Canadian and American squads beat every other team by 20 goals, and the only entertaining game for me as a Canadian is the Finals. Winning money must be boring.
Once the sport gets to a sever point of "boring", there wont be any money to win because the industry died from lack of interest. I feel that was more in the direction of his point.
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You can practice 11 hours a day, put in all the time and training, but if your doing it in Europe, or North America, you still won't catch the Koreans cause their 11 hour days are vs Much better competition, other Koreans.
The only way to compete is play vs the Koreans daily like Huk is doing. Otherwise, all the training in the world won't matter. The Koreans are getting better at a faster rate than everyone, the gap is growing.
If Koreans continue to win everything, and the skill gap remains this large, the fan base will deteriorate and e-sports will suffer. Its in everyone's interest for Foreigners to get their act together.
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Sure 12-14 hours make you good, but why do you keep focusing on that? It's how effective you are training that sets you apart.
Having a team house lets you discuss and bring forth your creativity. I have big hopes for the EG team house.
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On August 07 2011 17:02 iCanada wrote:
I think after a point even Koreans will get bored if they keep dominating everyone.
I mean hell, look at Womens Hockey. It is basically a three horse race: Canada, The US, and one of Sweden/Finland... but even then it is noncompetitive. The Canadian and American squads beat every other team by 20 goals, and the only entertaining game for me as a Canadian is the Finals.
Koreans are not playing for Team Korea, they're playing for themselves and to a lesser extent their individual teams.
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On August 07 2011 19:55 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 19:48 superbabosheki wrote:On August 07 2011 17:02 iCanada wrote:
I think after a point even Koreans will get bored if they keep dominating everyone.
I mean hell, look at Womens Hockey. It is basically a three horse race: Canada, The US, and one of Sweden/Finland... but even then it is noncompetitive. The Canadian and American squads beat every other team by 20 goals, and the only entertaining game for me as a Canadian is the Finals. Winning money must be boring. Once the sport gets to a sever point of "boring", there wont be any money to win because the industry died from lack of interest. I feel that was more in the direction of his point.
Pretty much this. I'd add that you don't win money at the Olympics.
Womens hockey is pretty well a prime example of what happens when there isn't really any competition in a sport. There isn't really any money in it at all... it got to the point where it was boring because the Canadian team dominated everyone (and we have even had some players go play in European Mens leagues.
However, at this point the game has pretty well come to a screeching halt. There is no money for the women to make money playing the game anywhere besides Canada and the US (and that is only because of our national development programs... basically 40 women travel together and play hockey funded by Hockey Canada/USA Hockey), no real pro leagues, and no real fans who watch anyway. Furthermore, because there is no real competition there are less and less talented women coming in from nations around the world, including Canada/US.
I guess the point is that we need Foreign pros to step it up because as silly as it sounds in order for SC2 to be a long term success we need it so there is a continuous market that isn't going to die. In order for that to happen we need a continued stream of players, a continued stream of sponsorships, and most importantly new up and comers.
I suppose that leaves me with this... who is more likely to make the average foreign kid want to pursue becoming a pro gamer: HuK, or some guy who doesn't even speak english? If we don't have enough guys for the next generation to relate to, we run out of talent. We run out of talent and the scene gets stale (atleast out here in foriegn land) despite the amount of success we are seeing in the SC2 esports community. If suddenly we have no new players, and the fans are getting bored, the sponsors will proceed to high tail it out of there and the industry just dies.
Korean dominance is hurting E-Sports. Literally. Thats not to say that it is an immediate concern, but I really do feel that it has to be a concern somewhere along the line.
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Many ppl who hype the term "e-Sports" don't even reallize that they truely would favor the opposite. The people like livetreams here on tl. Pov streams with their favored players. They want to interact with them in the forums here on tl. Ppl who hype "eSports" are happy as it is in the moment. But eSports means something completly different. It means there will be no replays because of tactic leak. No practice stream sessions. When players really evolve to professional gamers they can't allow leaks. They cannot allow to waste time in forums. They cannot allow to fool around with some funny ppl and do things for a community without getting paid AND the certainty to not lose time against other gamers. I personally don't want to see the gamers to take it as serious as some of the koreans do. I don't like to see many nice guys vanish just because they cannot compete anymore. I liked the community thing till now and how so many known guys competed against each other. I don't know the korean guys but I know "our guys" since they show themself here on tl.
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Agree totally with Mr. Bitter. Sc2 is in a weird place right now. Foreigners have a stronger community but weaker players, but Korea has a weaker community but stronger players. I'm really hoping that it can balance out so that we can just have 1 big amazing community.
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I feel split in this regard.
One part of me want to see an even distribution of foreigners and koreans, but not see the distribution for no toher reason then just because. If koreans are better, they deserve to win. If the result is to not invite koreans because foreigners feel ashamed, I don't want to watch that tournament due to the games will be of lower caliber then korean tournaments. So, racism is not hte way to go if you want to gather rather then split the community.
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EPT
