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[G] Comprehensive SC2 League and Ladder Guide - Page 16

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
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Gulzt
Profile Joined August 2009
Netherlands275 Posts
April 19 2011 16:28 GMT
#301
@Reken & Excalibur Makes sense, thanks for your answers!
Kyamo
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada129 Posts
April 20 2011 17:33 GMT
#302
On April 20 2011 00:08 Excalibur_Z wrote:
They're at the bottom of the MMR scale so some of the people they face who are legitimately in that situation (not as a result of win trading or intentional losing) will get bumped up a tiny bit, and the people that those people face will get bumped up a tiny bit, and so forth. It's probably not going to have that big an impact on the ladder as a whole though.



My Dad was one of the players legitimately affected by the bronze zero issue. At one point, more than half his wins were coming from people leaving immediately, to the point where he was keeping track of his "real" wins manually. So yeah, this intentional losing definitely does affect low level players a lot.
Gulzt
Profile Joined August 2009
Netherlands275 Posts
April 20 2011 21:06 GMT
#303
On February 22 2011 15:13 Excalibur_Z wrote:
[When you are moved from one league to another, your score is reset to 73 + the amount of bonus pool you have spent so far.


I can finally confirm this to be true! Not that there was any doubt most likely, but I've kept a very close track of my pool and it's exactly the score I got afterwards. Finally in Diamond :D
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12244 Posts
April 22 2011 19:16 GMT
#304
Made an important correction about skipping leagues, which is no longer possible.
Moderator
Gulzt
Profile Joined August 2009
Netherlands275 Posts
April 24 2011 10:43 GMT
#305
Great

Hey I was wondering about something else. You divided the leagues into different tiers. As reference to figure this out you used the top 200.

But now that the top 200 has moved to the Grandmaster league, does it mean that if blizzard decides to add a tier in a league, or changes the value between tiers (now +63), that there will be no way to figure out about it?
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12244 Posts
April 25 2011 15:53 GMT
#306
On April 24 2011 19:43 Gulzt wrote:
Great

Hey I was wondering about something else. You divided the leagues into different tiers. As reference to figure this out you used the top 200.

But now that the top 200 has moved to the Grandmaster league, does it mean that if blizzard decides to add a tier in a league, or changes the value between tiers (now +63), that there will be no way to figure out about it?


Yeah, unfortunately, that would likely be the case. We've tried comparing player points and MMR using +12/-12 point games as references, but it's not accurate enough to determine basically anything.
Moderator
Holliday
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany30 Posts
April 25 2011 17:18 GMT
#307
when i started to ladder last year, i got placed in bronze 81st place.

when i played, and i played pretty activley, i lost alot. so i had like 25 losses to 2 wins. when i did win, as rare as it was back then, i only got 2 points, but when i lost, i would lose everthing. So it was virtually impossible to rank up from 80th place.

One day for some strange reason i got 4 points instead of 2, and then 6 , 8 and eventually everything normalized at about 30 points, and -10 points for a loss.

How do you explain this weird point distribution?

thankyou in advance
Life's a B!tch and then you die
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12244 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-25 17:44:31
April 25 2011 17:39 GMT
#308
On April 26 2011 02:18 Holliday wrote:
when i started to ladder last year, i got placed in bronze 81st place.

when i played, and i played pretty activley, i lost alot. so i had like 25 losses to 2 wins. when i did win, as rare as it was back then, i only got 2 points, but when i lost, i would lose everthing. So it was virtually impossible to rank up from 80th place.

One day for some strange reason i got 4 points instead of 2, and then 6 , 8 and eventually everything normalized at about 30 points, and -10 points for a loss.

How do you explain this weird point distribution?

thankyou in advance


There was a fix that coincided with Patch 1.3 where this bug was addressed (partially, anyway... if you're still at the bottom of the ladder you'll earn about 6+6 points per game instead of 1+1).
Moderator
Holliday
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany30 Posts
April 25 2011 18:34 GMT
#309
well, i am no longer at the bottom, i fought my way to 3rd be4 reset and now i am around the 10-15 ish mark.

Really screwed me over that bug, glad that other ppl won't have to go through what i did. i played about 450 games to get outta that bug
Life's a B!tch and then you die
TheResidentEvil
Profile Joined September 2010
United States991 Posts
April 28 2011 15:27 GMT
#310
I have a question. 2 days ago I played a 3v3 where I lost. Afer the game, it said i got +0. What would cause this?

Also the next win I got promoted to masters so I dont know if that has an affect or not.
Volkov
Profile Joined September 2009
United States71 Posts
April 29 2011 01:36 GMT
#311
On April 23 2011 04:16 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Made an important correction about skipping leagues, which is no longer possible.

I think it's still possible. I dropped from plat to low bronze like 2 weeks ago (after several months of inactivity and a few played (and getting pwned)) games.
kmac
Profile Joined May 2010
8 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-01 02:10:28
May 01 2011 01:33 GMT
#312
I have a few questions:

1) When the ladder reset, I lost my first game, and was placed into diamond, with 0 points. Does 0 points mean I am in the S tier (since I didn't start with N*63 points)? If it helps, my division is Hanson Echo. Also, I've looked at all my wins/losses since the reset, and the points won/lost add up to my current displayed score.

2) Can points go negative? Since the reset, I have used 240 bonus points, but my ladder points is 202. Are my points -38, or 0?

3) Any idea how many points will approximately get to masters? It looks like top diamond people have ~650-800 points (with 418 bonus points as of this posting). If my goal is to get in to masters, should my target be to get my points in/above that range? (I know it's MMR, not points, that matters, but I can't track my MMR, and having something quantifiable I can track helps.)

Edit: Thanks for the response.
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
May 01 2011 01:58 GMT
#313
@kmac

1) When the ladder reset, I lost my first game, and was placed into diamond, with 0 points. Does 0 points mean I am in the S tier (since I didn't start with N*63 points)? If it helps, my division is Hanson Echo. Also, I've looked at all my wins/losses since the reset, and the points won/lost add up to my current displayed score.


Everyone started at zero points, be it Diamond F-S, Masters or whatever.

2) Can points go negative? Since the reset, I have used 240 bonus points, but my ladder points is 202. Are my points -38, or 0?


Your adjusted points can go negative, as long you have spent bonus pool to be eatten. So, yes, you adjusted points are - 38, I have been -77 before myself

3) Any idea how many points will approximately get to masters? It looks like top diamond people have ~650-800 points (with 418 bonus points as of this posting). If my goal is to get in to masters, should my target be to get my points in/above that range? (I know it's MMR, not points, that matters, but I can't track my MMR, and having something quantifiable I can track helps.)


You need to first know for sure your division rank (F-S), but to find that it'll require a lot of research, just keep winning against the diamonds till the system bring you masters and win against them as well

If you aim for master you should aim to win till you get there, if we knew your division offset then we could know how far you are from it indeed, but that wouldn't help you win against better players, the information is just information, it actually can't help you
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12244 Posts
May 06 2011 19:51 GMT
#314
Okay, so the ladder adjustment hotfixes just went live on the remaining (non-NA) servers yesterday. This was the hotfix that modified the MMR breakpoints for each league. This is going to cause a shift in league populations over time, as more and more players play games post-hotfix. What is important to note about this hotfix is that it applies to each region differently.

What this should mean is that the populations for each server should start going back down to the expected percentiles (2/18/20/20/20/20), but because the MMR breakpoints are no longer going to be the same for each region, there may be actual skill discrepancies across regions for the same leagues.

To use some hypothetical numbers as an example (and I'm just using SC2Ranks values because they're more visible, active players will be a little different but this should illustrate what the effects will be), let's say that right now 55% of the population in LA is in Bronze while 26% of China is in Bronze, and the Bronze threshold is like 1000 MMR. LA has fewer players which means skill doesn't deviate as much from the starting point. What will happen is that after the hotfix, LA will get closer to 20% in Bronze, and China will also. However, China is already pretty close to 20% in Bronze so their MMR breakpoint for Bronze won't change very much. LA is really far from 20% so the MMR breakpoint will change to whatever matches up with the current 20th percentile, so maybe 300 MMR or something.

Not sure how this will impact servers like KR which is already regarded as far and away the most skilled server, but I can predict that we'll see more types of statements like "Korean Plat = NA Master" =)
Moderator
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
May 06 2011 20:00 GMT
#315
There was a entire new division on platinum on LA server

http://us.battle.net/sc2/pt/profile/59905/2/Zeratul/ladder/44985

and when I saw that I knew the hotfix went live, LA server just can't promote so many players at the same time. :D

Thanks for confirming it Excalibur <3
Hidden_MotiveS
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada2562 Posts
May 06 2011 20:05 GMT
#316
Are you a genie?

Bookmarked, will read later. Great work.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 20:07:06
May 06 2011 20:06 GMT
#317
On May 07 2011 04:51 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Okay, so the ladder adjustment hotfixes just went live on the remaining (non-NA) servers yesterday. This was the hotfix that modified the MMR breakpoints for each league. This is going to cause a shift in league populations over time, as more and more players play games post-hotfix. What is important to note about this hotfix is that it applies to each region differently.

What this should mean is that the populations for each server should start going back down to the expected percentiles (2/18/20/20/20/20), but because the MMR breakpoints are no longer going to be the same for each region, there may be actual skill discrepancies across regions for the same leagues.

To use some hypothetical numbers as an example (and I'm just using SC2Ranks values because they're more visible, active players will be a little different but this should illustrate what the effects will be), let's say that right now 55% of the population in LA is in Bronze while 26% of China is in Bronze, and the Bronze threshold is like 1000 MMR. LA has fewer players which means skill doesn't deviate as much from the starting point. What will happen is that after the hotfix, LA will get closer to 20% in Bronze, and China will also. However, China is already pretty close to 20% in Bronze so their MMR breakpoint for Bronze won't change very much. LA is really far from 20% so the MMR breakpoint will change to whatever matches up with the current 20th percentile, so maybe 300 MMR or something.

Not sure how this will impact servers like KR which is already regarded as far and away the most skilled server, but I can predict that we'll see more types of statements like "Korean Plat = NA Master" =)


Thanks X
How does this effect (if at all) the league deflation over time where bronze gets bigger as more and more players stop playing?
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 20:28:05
May 06 2011 20:27 GMT
#318
There was actually a blue post on LA foruns more than 11 hours ago and I just didn't see it o.O

/fail

Anyway... I might actually start playing more now that I'll soon be diamond (I'd hope...).
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12244 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 21:24:52
May 06 2011 21:24 GMT
#319
On May 07 2011 05:06 Archerofaiur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2011 04:51 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Okay, so the ladder adjustment hotfixes just went live on the remaining (non-NA) servers yesterday. This was the hotfix that modified the MMR breakpoints for each league. This is going to cause a shift in league populations over time, as more and more players play games post-hotfix. What is important to note about this hotfix is that it applies to each region differently.

What this should mean is that the populations for each server should start going back down to the expected percentiles (2/18/20/20/20/20), but because the MMR breakpoints are no longer going to be the same for each region, there may be actual skill discrepancies across regions for the same leagues.

To use some hypothetical numbers as an example (and I'm just using SC2Ranks values because they're more visible, active players will be a little different but this should illustrate what the effects will be), let's say that right now 55% of the population in LA is in Bronze while 26% of China is in Bronze, and the Bronze threshold is like 1000 MMR. LA has fewer players which means skill doesn't deviate as much from the starting point. What will happen is that after the hotfix, LA will get closer to 20% in Bronze, and China will also. However, China is already pretty close to 20% in Bronze so their MMR breakpoint for Bronze won't change very much. LA is really far from 20% so the MMR breakpoint will change to whatever matches up with the current 20th percentile, so maybe 300 MMR or something.

Not sure how this will impact servers like KR which is already regarded as far and away the most skilled server, but I can predict that we'll see more types of statements like "Korean Plat = NA Master" =)


Thanks X
How does this effect (if at all) the league deflation over time where bronze gets bigger as more and more players stop playing?


I think the leagues should be a little more stable this time. What probably happened was that they expected a certain level of retention in active players but players were either worse than they predicted or quit faster in lower leagues than they predicted, and those problems are more apparent on the very small servers. When Season 1 ended, we already knew that Bronze was larger than the other leagues to an extreme degree on all servers, with an even larger divide on servers like LA (we didn't have active player info but we could maybe get kind of close based on what SC2Ranks showed). When Season 2 began, we started to see the same disproportionate league populations emerge, which was something that was not expected (it should have been a lot closer to the ideal distribution than it was). Now that the league breakpoints are basically adjusted to the current population for each region, things should stabilize because now each server is taking all of that into account.

EDIT: I should say that leagues will probably continue to drift in size, it just won't be as extreme as it was in Season 1.
Moderator
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
May 06 2011 21:35 GMT
#320
On May 07 2011 06:24 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2011 05:06 Archerofaiur wrote:
On May 07 2011 04:51 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Okay, so the ladder adjustment hotfixes just went live on the remaining (non-NA) servers yesterday. This was the hotfix that modified the MMR breakpoints for each league. This is going to cause a shift in league populations over time, as more and more players play games post-hotfix. What is important to note about this hotfix is that it applies to each region differently.

What this should mean is that the populations for each server should start going back down to the expected percentiles (2/18/20/20/20/20), but because the MMR breakpoints are no longer going to be the same for each region, there may be actual skill discrepancies across regions for the same leagues.

To use some hypothetical numbers as an example (and I'm just using SC2Ranks values because they're more visible, active players will be a little different but this should illustrate what the effects will be), let's say that right now 55% of the population in LA is in Bronze while 26% of China is in Bronze, and the Bronze threshold is like 1000 MMR. LA has fewer players which means skill doesn't deviate as much from the starting point. What will happen is that after the hotfix, LA will get closer to 20% in Bronze, and China will also. However, China is already pretty close to 20% in Bronze so their MMR breakpoint for Bronze won't change very much. LA is really far from 20% so the MMR breakpoint will change to whatever matches up with the current 20th percentile, so maybe 300 MMR or something.

Not sure how this will impact servers like KR which is already regarded as far and away the most skilled server, but I can predict that we'll see more types of statements like "Korean Plat = NA Master" =)


Thanks X
How does this effect (if at all) the league deflation over time where bronze gets bigger as more and more players stop playing?


I think the leagues should be a little more stable this time. What probably happened was that they expected a certain level of retention in active players but players were either worse than they predicted or quit faster in lower leagues than they predicted, and those problems are more apparent on the very small servers. When Season 1 ended, we already knew that Bronze was larger than the other leagues to an extreme degree on all servers, with an even larger divide on servers like LA (we didn't have active player info but we could maybe get kind of close based on what SC2Ranks showed). When Season 2 began, we started to see the same disproportionate league populations emerge, which was something that was not expected (it should have been a lot closer to the ideal distribution than it was). Now that the league breakpoints are basically adjusted to the current population for each region, things should stabilize because now each server is taking all of that into account.

EDIT: I should say that leagues will probably continue to drift in size, it just won't be as extreme as it was in Season 1.


Cool cool.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
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