• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:46
CEST 09:46
KST 16:46
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall12HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension1Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles7[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China11
StarCraft 2
General
TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone [Guide] MyStarcraft BW General Discussion [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Accidental Video Game Porn Archive
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 596 users

SC2 Math! How Many Workers for Constant Prodcution

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Normal
kidcrash89
Profile Joined August 2010
198 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 19:08:39
October 11 2010 03:51 GMT
#1
SC2 Math! How Many Workers for Constant Production

Introduction
So, after reading another SC2 math thread, I - being very bored - decided to pursue a problem that's been troubling me for quite awhile:

How many gatherers do I need to have to constantly produce some unit u out of X amount of buildings?

Spreadsheet: http://www.mediafire.com/?lugm36un2m0n2ij
Web App (not by me, but awesome nonetheless): http://haploid.nl/sc2/unit_production/

+ Show Spoiler +
This has been on my mind a lot, especially as a Zerg player. I mean, how many times have you Zergs out there made too many drones and found your money sky rocketing past what you can spend? Or maybe vice-versa where you are trying to support a build which is too expensive. As a math major, it is my duty to provide the world with all kinds of crazy shit like this. Hopefully nobody's already done this (if so then the experience was worth the while anyways!). I hope this post will lead to some very interesting analysis of SC2!

P.S. I wouldn't mind if someone made a spreadsheet of all the units in-game vs. the number of production buildings which had cells containing the number of workers needed for minerals/gas. I'm too burnt out to figure out how to do one myself!

Special thanks to Texas Instruments for making ballin' calculators and to Columbus for giving me a three-day weekend.

Also, for corrections, questions, or other comments, I can be reached at trebyoyoyoyo.236 on North American servers.

Enjoy!

EDIT: A cool program which someone just referred me to. Definitely recommend people check it out. Good to see our results match!
http://haploid.nl/sc2/unit_production/
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155279

I hope I didn't fuck up the bolded, simplified versions. Sorry if I did!


------------------------------

Overview
(note that F(x) does not imply F is a function of x is my notation; these are substitutes for subscripts, e.g. F(x) could be food supplied by x):

The following are equations for each of the races which will output the approximate number of workers required to sustain constant production of some unit out of a number of buildings. An explanation of my methods and a list of the assumptions I made are also listed below. Examples of tests I performed are given as well.

USES:
+ Show Spoiler +
Massing one unit of of some amount of bases, this will tell you how many workers on mins/gas you should have. This accounts for supply units and automatically calculates their cost in the total cost.

You can create unit compositions with this as well. Say I wanted an army of 40% Roaches and 60% Hydras. Then, for minerals (and similarly for gas), I would do this:
Total gatherers on minerals = 0.4(Gatherers to mass Roaches) + 0.6(Gatherers to mass Hydras)

One interesting find: Carriers (without Interceptor costs) are cheaper to mass than Void Rays, Phoenix, or Collosus!


Spreadsheet: http://www.mediafire.com/?ihdinkzl8192c4f

Considering saturation:
+ Show Spoiler +
Using strictly Liquipedia data:

2 or less mining a patch = negligible saturation rates

drone mining w/o sat = .7 per sec
drone mining w/ sat = 102/(60 * 3) = .567 minerals per sec

(.7 - .567) / .7 = ~19% loss

Each saturated drone (must consider all 3 in each patch) is mines at 4/5 the rate of an unsaturated drone

In other words, we should add 1 unsaturated drone for every 5 saturated drones. Calculate the number of drones on the spreadsheet and then compensate for however many of those drones are on saturated mineral patches. Understand that this means if I have 2 saturated patches, that means I have 6 drones on saturated drones. I'm defining saturated patches to be patches with 3 workers on them; a patch with 2 drones mines practically as well as 2 patches with 1 drone. In general, if you have 24 on minerals / base, then you want 5 extra drones on unsaturated veins.

Check
Assume 5 patches (15 workers). We assume that we should add 3 additional workers. This should give us the same result as 15 workers on unsaturated minerals.
5 * 1.7 + 3 * .7 should equal 15 * .7

5 * 1.7 + 3 * .7 = 10.6 minerals per sec
15 * .7 = 10.5 minerals per sec

Note: 3 typically on gas mines with negligible saturation rates.


For Protoss/Terran
+ Show Spoiler +
Let M(u) = mineral cost of a unit u
Let T(u) = time cost of a unit u
Let G(u) = gas cost of a unit u
Let X(u) = the number of structures to produce u
Let F(u) = the food cost of unit u
Let M(s) = mineral cost of a supply source s
Let F(s) = the food supply of a supply source s
Let G(M) = number of gatherers on minerals
Let R(M) = the average gathering rate of minerals for a single gatherer = ~ .679 minerals / sec
Let G(G) = number of gatherers on gas
Let R(G) = the average gathering rate of gas for a single gatherer = ~.676 gas / sec

Gatherers required on minerals to produce unit u on X(u) structures:
G(M) >= [X(u) / [T(u) * R(M)]] * [M(u) + [F(u) / F(s)] * M(s)]

Gatherers on minerals >= 18.41 * (number of buildings) * [8 * (mineral cost of unit)
+ (supply cost of unit)] / (time to make unit)


Gatherers required on gas to produce unit u on X(u) structures:
G(G) >= [X(u) * G(u)] / [T(u) * R(G)]

Gatherers on gas >= 1.48 * (number of buildings) * (gas cost of unit) / (time to make unit)

Note: R(G) is more sensitive on the distance of the gas on the map. On Kulas where there is a close geyser and a far geyser, the close geyser mines at about .774 gas / sec and the far one about .600 gas / sec.


For Zerg
+ Show Spoiler +
Let M(u) = mineral cost of a unit u
Let T(u) = time cost of a unit u
Let G(u) = gas cost of a unit u
Let X(u) = number of hatcheries producing unit u
Let F(u) = the food cost of unit u
Let M(s) = mineral cost of a supply source s
Let F(s) = the food supply of a supply source s
Let G(M) = number of gatherers on minerals
Let R(M) = the average gathering rate of minerals for a single gatherer = ~ .679 minerals / sec
Let G(G) = number of gatherers on gas
Let R(G) = the average gathering rate of gas for a single gatherer = ~.676 gas / sec
Let R(L) = rate of larva spawn for one hatchery = (1 larva / 15 sec) + (4 larva / 40 sec) = ~ .167 larva / sec

Gatherers required on minerals to produce unit u on X(u) hatcheries:
G(M) >= X(u) * R(L) * [F(s) * M(u) + F(u) * M(s)] / [R(M) * [F(s) + F(u)]]

Gatherers on minerals >= 2.46 * (number of hatcheries) * [.08 * (mineral cost of unit) + (supply cost of unit)] / [(supply cost of unit) + 8]

Gatherers required on gas to produce unit u on X(u) hatcheries:
G(G) >= X(u) * R(L) * F(s) * G(u) / [R(G) * [F(s) + F(z)]]

Gatherers on gas >= 1.97 * (number of hatcheries) * (gas cost of unit) / [(supply cost of unit) + 8]


------------------------------

Methods I used to model this problem:

+ Show Spoiler +
How many gatherers on minerals do I need to constantly produce marines from a given number of barracks?

Assumptions:

*** Gatherers do not lose gathering time by switching between mineral patches. We are only concerned with time to gather and time to return cargo/come back to patch.
*** Mineral patches never become over-saturated. We can have an infinite number of workers on one mineral patch and each will mine at the same rate as one worker would from its own distinct patch.
*** Builders are not considered gatherers.
*** We have all the buildings necessary to make the marines prior to the calculations. *** The cost of a barracks, for example, is not considered.
*** We can start producing units immediately with no supply blocks or other lack of funds.
*** Build time for supply is not considered.
*** All workers, both gatherers and builders, are assumed to be built prior to calculation.
*** All time will be measure in in-game seconds.
*** Income rate is constant.
*** All marines start perfectly on time and are not queued.
*** Some other stuff I forgot about that doesn't matter a whole lot.

Let M(m) = mineral cost of a marine = 50 minerals
Let T(m) = time cost of a marine = 25 sec
Let X(m) = the number of barracks producing marines
Let F(m) = the food cost of a marine = 1 supply
Let M(s) = mineral cost of a supply depot = 100 minerals
Let F(s) = the food supply of supply depots = 8 supply
Let G(M) = number of gatherers on minerals
Let R(M) = the average gathering rate of minerals for a single gatherer = ~ .679 minerals / sec

Fundamental constraint:

Income >= Cost (both in minerals/sec)

If we disregard supply constraints, then clearly
Income >= [X(m) * M(m)] / [T(m)]

If we have one barracks, then our income must be >= 50 minerals / 25 sec = 2 minerals / sec
If we have two barracks, then out income must be >= 100 minerals / 25 sec = 4 minerals /sec

Now we consider supply. By averaging, we find that, for each marine we produce, we must also produce F(m) / F(s) supply depots. Thus, our cost now becomes:
Income >= [X(m) * M(m)] / [T(m)] + [F(m) / F(s)] * [M(s)] * [X(m) / T(m)]

Which can be simplified to read:
Income >= [X(m) / T(m)] * [M(m) + [F(m) / F(s)] * M(s)]

This can be verified with simple dimensional analysis.

Now, we approach the problem of income. Income is directly related to the number of gatherers G we have. The mining rates for SCVs were measured by experimentation and averaged. Some notes about how this data was obtained:
*** Spawned in Top Left position of Kulas Ravine.
*** SCV's spread to middle six mineral patches. End patches were not used.
*** All measurements made in replay viewer at normal speed.
*** Measurements were made at the times which the Return Cargo icon disappeared.
*** All measurements were made after 1 minute of natural mining cycles.
*** Measurements were made for approximately 1 minute game time. I believe this is enough time given the amount of redundancy in the data. Practically speaking, these values will wash in with the rest of the errors in the model and errors in the player's performance.

Avg mining rate = ~ 5 minerals / 7.361 sec = ~ .679 minerals / sec = R(M)

So, our mineral income (given our assumptions) should be:
Income = R(M) * G(M)

Thus, Income >= Cost becomes:
[R(M) * G(M)] >= [X(m) / T(m)] * [M(m) + [F(m) / F(s)] * M(s)]

Solving for G(M):
G(M) >= [X(m) / [T(m) * R(M)]] * [M(m) + [F(m) / F(s)] * M(s)]

Now we can test this result on a real situation. Let's try 5 barracks. This means we need:
G(M) >= (5 / (25sec * .679 minerals/sec)) * (50 minerals + (1 supply / 8 supply) * 100 minerals)
G(M) >= .295 * 62.5
G(M) >= 18.4 gatherers

Which we round to 19 gatherers. Note that having an extra gatherer will also help prevent any early supply blocks we might get from not having the time to finish a supply depot. By having the extra money we can drop the depot earlier, thus refrain from halting any marine production. In the practical sense, having an extra worker will allow you to have an easier time progressing into later stages of the game.

We must also take into consideration the fact that it was assumed that we had enough to produce marines out of every barracks immediately. This means we need X(m) * M(m) = 5 * 50 minerals = 250 minerals to start. We will also need at least X(m) * F(m) = 5 * 1 supply = 5 spare supply to start. Due to our averaging of the cost of supply, it will probably end up being a good idea getting an extra supply depot prior to making marines.

To test this, I've created a custom map. So far I've tested 5 barracks, 19 workers on one base as well as two. I've found two bases to be a significant improvement (due to over-saturation in the main). Over about 5 minutes with less than perfect timing, I wound up having roughly 300 extra minerals with 2 bases and 19 workers mining. I started with 250 minerals and and about 21/38 supply dropping depots roughly every 8 marines (as long as it didn't interfere with marine production). I ended with around 70 marines.

Big picture:
This formula seems to be a decent estimate of how many workers you need to support constant unit production. The formula was kept general so that users can plug-in their own unit combinations. The formula will be reformulated below to incorporate gas. I also plan to write a formula for Zerg. Users should be able to accommodate for over-saturation rather easily either by splitting workers to an expansion or by modifying the formula to account for it. Liquipedia has some mining rates listed as well which you can use. Just remember to convert the rates into (resources / game second).

Let M(u) = mineral cost of a unit u
Let T(u) = time cost of a unit u
Let G(u) = gas cost of a unit u
Let X(u) = the number of structures to produce u
Let F(u) = the food cost of unit u
Let M(s) = mineral cost of a supply source s
Let F(s) = the food supply of a supply source s
Let G(M) = number of gatherers on minerals
Let R(M) = the average gathering rate of minerals for a single gatherer = ~ .679 minerals / sec
Let G(G) = number of gatherers on gas
Let R(G) = the average gathering rate of gas for a single gatherer = ~.676 gas / sec

Note: R(G) is more sensitive on the distance of the gas on the map. On Kulas where there is a close geyser and a far geyser, the close geyser mines at about .774 gas / sec and the far one about .600 gas / sec.

Gatherers required on minerals to produce unit u on X(u) structures:
G(M) >= [X(u) / [T(u) * R(M)]] * [M(u) + [F(u) / F(s)] * M(s)]

Gatherers required on gas to produce unit u on X(u) structures:
G(G) >= [X(u) * G(u)] / [T(u) * R(G)]

------------------------------

For Zerg, Larva needs to be taken into consideration. Assuming that we have queens and that we spawn larva perfectly. We also assume that we only have 1 free larva in this calculation. We can add more by assuming that we have extra money stored up (see marine example):

Let X(u) = number of hatcheries producing unit u
Let R(L) = rate of larva spawn for one hatchery = (1 larva / 15 sec) + (4 larva / 40 sec) = ~ .167 larva / sec

As Zerg, we wish to create a unit, say Zerglings, every larva spawn, ignoring supply:
Income >= X(z) * R(L) * M(z)

Including supply means that we make a Zergling some percent of the time and an Overlord the other percent. We find these percentages by realizing we make 8:1 Zerglings to Overlords:
Income >= X(z) * R(L) * [F(s) * M(z) + F(z) * M(s)] / [F(s) + F(z)]

Income should stay the same as the marine case:
[R(M) * G(M)] >= X(z) * R(L) * [F(s) * M(z) + F(z) * M(s)] / [F(s) + F(z)]

So the number of gatherers on minerals should be:
G(M) >= X(z) * R(L) * [F(s) * M(z) + F(z) * M(s)] / [R(M) * [F(s) + F(z)]]

So, if we are making Zergling off of one base:
G(M) >= .167 (larva / sec) * (8 supply * 50 minerals + 1 supply * 100 minerals) / (.679 (minerals / sec) * 9 supply)

G(M) >= 13.7 gatherers

Round to 14 gatherers and test this result. I will give myself 150 minerals to use the first spawns on Zerglings and cast Spawn Larva immediately. In my test I actually found myself just able to manage with 13 gatherers, but I also tested on LT. Regardless, this method still seems to bring you very close to the optimal number of gatherers.

Gatherers required on minerals to produce unit u on X(u) hatcheries:
G(M) >= X(u) * R(L) * [F(s) * M(u) + F(u) * M(s)] / [R(M) * [F(s) + F(u)]]

Gatherers required on gas to produce unit u on X(u) hatcheries:
G(G) >= X(u) * R(L) * F(s) * G(u) / [R(G) * [F(s) + F(z)]]

------------------------------

For my final test I decided to try Mutas off of two bases:

G(M) >= 2 * .167 * [8 * 100 + 2 * 100] / [.679 * 10]
G(M) >= 49.2 gatherers

Let G(M) = 50 gatherers

G(G) >= 2 * .167 * 8 * 100 / [.676 * 10]
G(G) >= 39.5 gatherers

Let G(G) = 40 gatherers

I chose LT again and made four hatcheries for workers. I only produced out of two with queens. I added extra geysers to my bases so I could reach 14 to avoid trouble with over-saturation. Considering how difficult it is to setup workers on 4 bases, spawn larva, and make units simultaneously, the money was spent very well. Money went up to about 1000/1000 right when larva popped off both hatches and was spent right away. Gas was never in excess and kept right with larva availability. Minerals did creep up a bit because I didn't make Overlords in the beginning since I gave myself a bunch to begin with to avoid the hassle. At about 7 minutes (about 5 of which was actually played) I had about 500 excess minerals, no excess gas and no excess larva.
HolyToilet
Profile Joined August 2010
United States62 Posts
October 11 2010 04:05 GMT
#2
LOL dam this is a great find, I automatically went from silver to diamond once I applied this method to producing my units. Now my macro is pro status
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
October 11 2010 04:08 GMT
#3
o.O

This makes me want to punch my parents for my simple-minded genes.

It also makes my brain hurt.

Regardless, assuming its all accurate, fantastic work.
cmos543
Profile Joined October 2008
220 Posts
October 11 2010 04:09 GMT
#4
I went from 1515 diamond Terran to 1523 Diamond Terran in just two games!! THANKS OP!!!

User was warned for this post
You shall not misuse your screen name by using anonymity to sin
Aberu
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States968 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 04:09:53
October 11 2010 04:09 GMT
#5
What happens if they consistently harass, and/or cheese you and it upsets all of this perfect macro math that you can't do instantly in your head on the fly.

Not attacking, just saying that you can be such a theorycrafter and still lose to harass upsetting yoru set in stone build.

Either way interesting find here. I do like it.
srsly
DragonDefonce
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States790 Posts
October 11 2010 04:11 GMT
#6
While this is a great bit of theory crafting, even Idra will sometimes falter on his macro, and get some extra income built up, so you should account for that income build up.

Also, this isn't very useful since you always want more workers to saturate your mineral lines, and then some to send over to expansions. Maybe it would be useful in setting up cheese or all in rush? But those are usually early enough in the game to be planned out manually.
RoK Ot7Er
Profile Joined June 2010
United States219 Posts
October 11 2010 04:12 GMT
#7
On October 11 2010 13:09 Aberu wrote:
What happens if they consistently harass, and/or cheese you and it upsets all of this perfect macro math that you can't do instantly in your head on the fly.

Not attacking, just saying that you can be such a theorycrafter and still lose to harass upsetting yoru set in stone build.

Either way interesting find here. I do like it.


Getting harrassed will lower the number of workers. This doesnt discount this, it just means you need to remake the workers in order to be constantly making the units you want..


For example, if it takes 10 workers to constantly be making tanks, and you get harrassed, it will still take 10 workers to constantly be making tanks, but since you lost 2, you have to remake those before this kicks back in.
Whiztard
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States227 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 04:16:16
October 11 2010 04:13 GMT
#8
On October 11 2010 13:09 Aberu wrote:
What happens if they consistently harass, and/or cheese you and it upsets all of this perfect macro math that you can't do instantly in your head on the fly.

Not attacking, just saying that you can be such a theorycrafter and still lose to harass upsetting yoru set in stone build.

Either way interesting find here. I do like it.


then you can quickly count how many harvesters you have left and see how much you can still support, =O.

or you can just rebuild the workers back to the point where you can support what you need to. see? its very easily applied.

EDIT: lol @ post above, you beat me to it.
further EDIT: the R(M) variable shifts based on saturation too, better account for that.
when Bisu switches to SC2...... (2014 update: sighh)
Paperscraps
Profile Joined March 2010
United States639 Posts
October 11 2010 04:15 GMT
#9
This could be useful for figuring out certain timing attacks and so forth, but ultimately in-game experience is a much better indicator of how many gatherers you need.

None the less, a lot of effort and hard work was put into this. Thanks OP!
"Because in the end, the only way we can measure the significance of our own lives is by valuing the lives of others.” - David Gale
kidcrash89
Profile Joined August 2010
198 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 04:36:02
October 11 2010 04:19 GMT
#10
Saturation can be accounted for, I'm just too lazy to account for it. You can either account for it by weighting worker value or using some values like those in liquipedia. Or you could just use this as an estimate and use general game sense to account for it. Really the big picture is to get a general idea of how many workers will be needed to sustain any sort of massing. It could also be applied to different unit compositions, again by weighting the values (e.g. going Roach/Hydra with 40% Roach 60% Hydra). It can be a useful and relatively quick tool (in comparison to playing shit tons of games) for finding about how many workers are needed to sustain it.

Plus it answers tons of stupid questions someone can have. Knowing you only need to make 19 SCV's to mass marines of 5 barracks could be a number you might want around for a rainy day.
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 04:23:05
October 11 2010 04:20 GMT
#11
On October 11 2010 13:11 DragonDefonce wrote:
While this is a great bit of theory crafting, even Idra will sometimes falter on his macro, and get some extra income built up, so you should account for that income build up.

Also, this isn't very useful since you always want more workers to saturate your mineral lines, and then some to send over to expansions. Maybe it would be useful in setting up cheese or all in rush? But those are usually early enough in the game to be planned out manually.


Are you kidding me?

As SC2 evolves, people are going to start looking for timing windows that they can exploit with very precise builds.

Knowing exactly how many workers you need to perfectly stream line those builds is paramount in taking your game to the next level. Again, assuming its all accurate, this is a fucking awesome bit of work.

And for all you uninitiated newbies (ie: never played BW) this kind of theory craft has been around for ages. I can't find it right now, but somewhere in the bowels of the BW forum is a thread that tells you exactly how many workers you need for constant production of units off of "x" amount of production facilities.

edit:

This actually reminds me of a game I played on Blue Storm once.

My Toss opponent fast expanded and made exactly 50 probes - 25 per base, and did a massive 2 base all in timing attack that was brutally effective. When I watched the replay, he had exactly the amount of economy he needed to support exactly the amount of gateways he had built.

This kind of precision is beautiful, and its what makes games like Starcraft (at high levels) so damn impressive.
Blisse
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada3710 Posts
October 11 2010 04:22 GMT
#12
This is great. It can even determine the workers when you want different ratios of units.

The only problems I see are if you need a quick tech switch, or if you want to add extra units, like a queen.
There is no one like you in the universe.
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
October 11 2010 04:26 GMT
#13
Doesn't it tell you at the bottom of the screen that 24 harvesters is optimum? What else do you need to know? If you have 24 at one base then only build more if you have excess minerals. Is that not what you're talking about?
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
s2pid_loser
Profile Joined March 2010
United States699 Posts
October 11 2010 04:27 GMT
#14
tl;dr
could u possibly bold ur results so i can jus see what ur findings were

i dont doubt ur proof, im curious to see ur result
thanks

User was warned for this post
Et Ducit Mundum Per Luce
ReTr0[p.S]
Profile Joined March 2005
Argentina1590 Posts
October 11 2010 04:31 GMT
#15
40 Gatherers and GG? GG INDEED
Mykill
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada3402 Posts
October 11 2010 04:31 GMT
#16
good math
i think i'd be more useful to the community if you just provided something like
x workers = y production for stalkers or something.
[~~The Impossible Leads To Invention~~] CJ Entusman #52 The problem with internet quotations is that they are hard to verify -Abraham Lincoln c.1863
kidcrash89
Profile Joined August 2010
198 Posts
October 11 2010 04:34 GMT
#17
On October 11 2010 13:27 s2pid_loser wrote:
tl;dr
could u possibly bold ur results so i can jus see what ur findings were

i dont doubt ur proof, im curious to see ur result
thanks


Hit the quotes for your race, variables need to be plugged-in based on what your interested in knowing.
Keitzer
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2509 Posts
October 11 2010 04:41 GMT
#18
That's a lot of typing.... probably more typing than you did Math..

and even then it's a lot of Math. More than i'm willing to think about.. however still enough to where i can comprehend it

one thing: it doesn't say how many workers you have so it's nearly impossible if a banshee walks in and gets 20 kills or a DT to your 3rd or a helion drop in your main... it's a GREAT math AND concept.. but very VERY hard to apply unless you're an excellent speed counter. GL to whoever wishes to use this to their advantage!
I'm like badass squared | KeitZer.489
Phant
Profile Joined August 2010
United States737 Posts
October 11 2010 04:54 GMT
#19
To make this more accurate, I would suggest making a table for resource collection rate for a given number of workers at a base (since the equation that models this is probably a little nasty if you take it past 8 workers). Get rid of everything in the equation that involves workers, only find out how many resources and gas per minute it takes to maintain an army and nothing else. Once you have this number, go to your newly created tables and look at the number that matches closest to what you need rounded up. There would probably be 2 or 3 possibilites.

x workers on 1 base.
x workers on base 1 y workers on base 2
x workers on base 1, y on 2, z on 3.

Plus x workers on y geysers.

So you will have 1 table going from 6-24 workers on minerals, and another table with 1 geyser, 2 geysers, 3 geysers etc.

The beauty of this is you can mix and match until you find a combination of bases and workers you think you can handle since there are many possibilities of what you can do. You might find out, very easily, that your build is too gas heavy and has to be cut back.

. That way it gives you an idea of if you need an expansion or not,

SneakPeek
Profile Joined April 2010
Philippines162 Posts
October 11 2010 04:59 GMT
#20
... i dont get it. so basically you are using math to figure out how many workers you need for sustaining the amount of units you are having. therefore this shows when to get expansions. how bout teching up? and what to do when you are harassed at the mineral line? >.<"
ThE.SparkZ
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States381 Posts
October 11 2010 05:00 GMT
#21
Holy hell thats amazing.. tons of great work here thanks. Really interesting to see the math behind the game ^^
A battle between gods is just so damn beautiful
Whiztard
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States227 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 05:07:00
October 11 2010 05:06 GMT
#22
On October 11 2010 13:59 SneakPeek wrote:
... i dont get it. so basically you are using math to figure out how many workers you need for sustaining the amount of units you are having. therefore this shows when to get expansions. how bout teching up? and what to do when you are harassed at the mineral line? >.<"


its used to find out how many miners you need to be able to support constant production of units. you're going to have to use separate equations for separate units. Each equation that you use accounts for a certain type of unit, and you're going to have to change the equation a little bit to account for what types of units you want.

the variable u represents the unit you want, and the amount produced per wave is already given by X(u).

for teching up, you're just going to increase your income or stop producing units. the equation that was proposed doesn't really account for this other than saying the amount of buildings you need to use to produce it.
when Bisu switches to SC2...... (2014 update: sighh)
AJMcSpiffy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1154 Posts
October 11 2010 05:06 GMT
#23
OP it is amazing to see how much work you put into this. I'm extremely impressed and I'm definitely gonna be trying to apply some of this soon!
If the quarter was in your right hand, that would've been micro
Kyhol
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada2574 Posts
October 11 2010 05:08 GMT
#24
I'd like to see this math applied to starcraft 1, then compared in actual games to what the progamers are doing. I think there would be some interesting results.
Wishing you well.
afirlortwo
Profile Joined April 2010
United States161 Posts
October 11 2010 05:11 GMT
#25
Awesome job, this should prove to be very useful in finding useful timing windows/strategies.
Just a momentary diversion on the road to the grave
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
October 11 2010 05:13 GMT
#26
On October 11 2010 14:08 Khol wrote:
I'd like to see this math applied to starcraft 1, then compared in actual games to what the progamers are doing. I think there would be some interesting results.


This has actually already been done somewhere in this forum... No idea what the thread title is, though.
l90 Proof
Profile Joined July 2010
64 Posts
October 11 2010 05:20 GMT
#27
Great work, great info.

If you want to criticise OP, it is probably because you aren't good enough to use this information yet, so quiet down and go use up the rest of your bonus pool. This is information which is really useful for making builds, and for reverse-engineering your resource allocation/tolerance. IE how much can you support off of one saturated base, 2 bases, etc.

Good work OP.
PROJECTILE
Profile Joined April 2010
United States226 Posts
October 11 2010 05:33 GMT
#28
nice work.
SpiDaH
Profile Joined March 2010
France198 Posts
October 11 2010 05:36 GMT
#29
loving math I can say that...I came...

going to plus stuff everywhere to figure out how to prod ultra broods and banes on 4 hatcheries yay!
DarkSmurf
Profile Joined April 2010
Argentina11 Posts
October 11 2010 05:39 GMT
#30
This will make timing pushes A LOT stronger
Dale nene!
whomybuddy
Profile Joined August 2010
United States620 Posts
October 11 2010 06:08 GMT
#31
T.T It's so hard to understand the entire math function. I give up LOL. Just gonna stick with scouting.
Roaches all the way way way.
benjaminethanlim
Profile Joined September 2010
Singapore25 Posts
October 11 2010 06:14 GMT
#32
This is really cool, thanks for sitting down and spending the time to come up with this like this. although my maths suck big time and i will probably never be able to use ur equations, i know good math when i see it.
really cool.
when you're sad, stop being sad and be awesome instead
TheAntZ
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Israel6248 Posts
October 11 2010 06:24 GMT
#33
people who use this to make new all-in strats best share with us retards who dont know math >: [
43084 | Honeybadger: "So july, you're in the GSL finals. How do you feel?!" ~ July: "HUNGRY."
kojinshugi
Profile Joined August 2010
Estonia2559 Posts
October 11 2010 06:29 GMT
#34
Some of the comments here are astounding in their ignorance.

"Why do all this math, you learn by experience!"

No, you learn to implement strategies by experience, you use math to figure out what's feasible.

Especially for Zerg this is very important. Experience tells you how many fighting units you need to defend or attack at key timings. Math tells you what the optimal way to get those units is.

Notice builds where workers are pulled off gas once there's enough for upgrade or building X. Should they all come off the gas? Will pulling only one or two workers off gas give you the necessary boost in minerals, letting you get midgame upgrades/units sooner? How many spine crawlers can you make while maintaining unit production instead of pumping drones? For how long?

These things may not matter as much now but as the game matures builds will get tighter and pressure will get higher, so situations where you just turtle at will while pumping drones won't be as readily available.
whatsgrackalackin420
supersoft
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany3729 Posts
October 11 2010 06:33 GMT
#35
All of you who say its not useful probably dont understand this :-P
I thoght of making this myself for a while now, but I had no time.
This lets you find the perfect timingattacks...
But you have to use it the other way around, you have to look, what can I produce off for example two bases. I bet most of you don't know how many buildings you may support off even two bases...
I will definetly use this function on my Thor/Marauder/Marine timongpush against Zerg.
razed.dead
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia79 Posts
October 11 2010 06:39 GMT
#36
Oh shit. i failed Advanced maths and scraped through methods. But algebra was my strong point so ill give it a go. thx OP
~too little, too late~
kidcrash89
Profile Joined August 2010
198 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 06:53:31
October 11 2010 06:43 GMT
#37
Just made a spreadsheet which should make using the information nine thousand times easier. I might complicate it a little more to suggest how many expansions you should have and to compensate for worker saturation since all that's easier to implement in a program than a function. I'm debating whether or not I want to go through the work of making it cater to specific builds or not.

I'll try to generate a big table if I can figure out how to.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
October 11 2010 06:45 GMT
#38
I am pretty sure I will use this in the near future. Simply, because It is nice to know if you can fully utilize your production buildings on a 2 base.
Some of us are mere humans and once setting up a third base it backfires into mass excess in minerals and a great amount of wasted clicks.
I had a good night of sleep.
kidcrash89
Profile Joined August 2010
198 Posts
October 11 2010 06:49 GMT
#39
On October 11 2010 15:45 Koshi wrote:
I am pretty sure I will use this in the near future. Simply, because It is nice to know if you can fully utilize your production buildings on a 2 base.


Pretty much the whole point I'm aiming for. I tend to make stupid amounts of drones.
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
October 11 2010 07:15 GMT
#40
Getting #DIV/0! in your spreadsheet (for protoss & terran) if any of the units I'm creating don't cost gas.

In fact it seems completely bonkers?

this data:
+ Show Spoiler +

Number of buildings producing 1st unit = 3
Mineral cost of 1st unit = 100
Gas cost of 1st unit = 1
Time to produce 1st unit = 28
Supply cost of 1st unit = 2

Number of buildings producing 2nd unit = 6
Mineral cost of 2nd unit = 50
Gas cost of 2nd unit = 150
Time to produce 2nd unit = 45
Supply cost of 2nd unit = 2

Number of buildings producing 3rd unit = 3
Mineral cost of 3rd unit = 100
Gas cost of 3rd unit = 1
Time to produce 3rd unit = 28
Supply cost of 3rd unit = 2


yields:


Workers to put on minerals = 55
Workers to put on gas = 1334

Total workers = 1389
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
Kaal
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Djibouti2514 Posts
October 11 2010 07:15 GMT
#41
I read about halfway down until I started drooling and going comatose from the electrons working so hard in my brain. I don't understand most of it personally, but I recognize that alot of effort and time went into this. Good find, and good work.
Moonling
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States987 Posts
October 11 2010 07:21 GMT
#42
You sir are a genius it took me a while just to figure out the equation but anyways thanks for this i know it took a lot of time TL Appreciates
1% of koreans control 99% of starcraft winnings. #occupykorea.
Godstorm
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Romania845 Posts
October 11 2010 07:24 GMT
#43
Wait so you're supposed to calculate this every game you play according to what units you make? LOL nty, i'd rather spam sd and over-saturate.
"It's not that he's dumb, he's just neural parasited by a retarded infestor"-Day 9
Qzy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Denmark1121 Posts
October 11 2010 07:35 GMT
#44
On October 11 2010 13:27 s2pid_loser wrote:
tl;dr
could u possibly bold ur results so i can jus see what ur findings were

i dont doubt ur proof, im curious to see ur result
thanks

User was warned for this post


I know he said it a bit rude, but this is what you do in the scientific world. Too much information about a proof can overwhelm you, therefore a conclusion need to be taken out of the calculations.

Looks nice tho...

Can it tell you how many workers you need on the new expo, before it can maintain itself?
TG Sambo... Intel classic! Life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
kidcrash89
Profile Joined August 2010
198 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 08:02:38
October 11 2010 08:00 GMT
#45
On October 11 2010 16:15 Jaeger wrote:
Getting #DIV/0! in your spreadsheet (for protoss & terran) if any of the units I'm creating don't cost gas.

In fact it seems completely bonkers?

this data:
+ Show Spoiler +

Number of buildings producing 1st unit = 3
Mineral cost of 1st unit = 100
Gas cost of 1st unit = 1
Time to produce 1st unit = 28
Supply cost of 1st unit = 2

Number of buildings producing 2nd unit = 6
Mineral cost of 2nd unit = 50
Gas cost of 2nd unit = 150
Time to produce 2nd unit = 45
Supply cost of 2nd unit = 2

Number of buildings producing 3rd unit = 3
Mineral cost of 3rd unit = 100
Gas cost of 3rd unit = 1
Time to produce 3rd unit = 28
Supply cost of 3rd unit = 2


yields:


Workers to put on minerals = 55
Workers to put on gas = 1334

Total workers = 1389


Retyped the gas code. It should give the following now:

+ Show Spoiler +
Number of buildings producing 1st unit = 3
Mineral cost of 1st unit = 100
Gas cost of 1st unit = 1
Time to produce 1st unit = 28
Supply cost of 1st unit = 2

Number of buildings producing 2nd unit = 6
Mineral cost of 2nd unit = 50
Gas cost of 2nd unit = 150
Time to produce 2nd unit = 45
Supply cost of 2nd unit = 2

Number of buildings producing 3rd unit = 3
Mineral cost of 3rd unit = 100
Gas cost of 3rd unit = 1
Time to produce 3rd unit = 28
Supply cost of 3rd unit = 2

Workers on minerals = 55
Workers on gas = 30
Total workers = 85


Let me know if the div by zero thing still occurs, I don't think it will now.
bud_b
Profile Joined August 2010
Turkey4 Posts
October 11 2010 09:27 GMT
#46
Hello,

This is a really useful tool! Thanks a lot! :D

To all those who say that this is pretty much useless data, try to think of it in another way:

We can make use of this information (and tool) to calculate X (the number of production facilities) instead of G (the number of gatherers). We can assume that G is a given function of number of bases (I mean assume full saturation). That would answer questions like: "How many barracks can a fully saturated single base support?" "If i have a fully saturated zerg base and i am somehow unable to expand, do i need a second hatchery to be able to spend all my minerals while making zerglings and banelings?"
cryu
Profile Joined July 2010
37 Posts
October 11 2010 12:48 GMT
#47
Thanks a lot for your hard work!
PsykoMantis
Profile Joined June 2010
United States203 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 13:44:29
October 11 2010 13:27 GMT
#48
Wow this is awesome, I was wondering about one addition to this though (I haven't looked at the excel sheet yet, just the web app) but being able to input how many probes are gathering gas from each geyser. I know it seems like really I am just splitting hairs, but I sort of want to know the exact amount of probes required, for the time being I am just using some fraction of geysers used to find any non-multiple of 3 probe amount on gas.. so for example 5/6 probes on 2 geysers would be 1.667 geysers?
I want this info more than anything to see if it is better on 2 base for a certain build to have 3 geysers fully saturated, or 4 geysers with 2 probes on each geyser.
edit: just read the link to the tl post for measuring mining speed and that answers my question.

edit: now that I thought about it some more, I definitely think I was just over thinking things.
+ Show Spoiler +
One last thing that I was thinking would be really interesting is to see the effect of upgrades on production, I think you could represent it using the following:
If you consider the result that is calculated for the production for a given #probes/bases as a steady state, you could graph production (y-axis) vs time (x-axis) and it would give you a straight line. However, if you were to throw in an upgrade into the graph at some time t0, you would see a dip in production (obviously) on the graph, but what I am more interested in is how long it takes for production to recover to its steady state value.
For example this would answer a question such as: if i am making constant marine production, i know in T amount of time, I will have X marines. However, if I were to put in an upgrade that cost 100 minerals somewhere in the time period T, do I just end up with 2 less marines at time T or do I have even less marines?
I am probably just over thinking the situation on this one, any thoughts?
Takkara
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2503 Posts
October 11 2010 13:55 GMT
#49
I think some people are jumping on this the way wrong way. Simplified modeling spreadsheets like this aren't for people to figure out that they need exactly 38.25 drones to make their ideal army in every game no matter what. Instead, it's to give people rough orders of magnitude about how much macro infrastructure they'll need for certain comps. It could be invaluable for mid-and-low tier players to get ideas about how much econ they need for certain unit comps. It can be revealing to a lot of people who want to see at a very rough level "why" something works to compliment their experience that it does work.

You don't want to add macro gaps, harassment, drone caps, etc to the spreadsheet because it's not a simulator. It's a model. It gives you the optimal minimum number of drones harvesting at max capacity you need to handle your unit production.

Of course harassment lowers your abilities, of course drone mashing lowers your yield, and supply facilities, unit producing structures, lag, etc, etc, etc. But you know that if you don't AT LEAST have what this model says, then you can't support what you're trying to produce.

A very useful and educational tool. The web app particularly is amazingly well designed.
Gee gee gee gee baby baby baby
kidcrash89
Profile Joined August 2010
198 Posts
October 11 2010 15:28 GMT
#50
On October 11 2010 22:27 PsykoMantis wrote:
Wow this is awesome, I was wondering about one addition to this though (I haven't looked at the excel sheet yet, just the web app) but being able to input how many probes are gathering gas from each geyser. I know it seems like really I am just splitting hairs, but I sort of want to know the exact amount of probes required, for the time being I am just using some fraction of geysers used to find any non-multiple of 3 probe amount on gas.. so for example 5/6 probes on 2 geysers would be 1.667 geysers?
I want this info more than anything to see if it is better on 2 base for a certain build to have 3 geysers fully saturated, or 4 geysers with 2 probes on each geyser.
edit: just read the link to the tl post for measuring mining speed and that answers my question.

edit: now that I thought about it some more, I definitely think I was just over thinking things.
+ Show Spoiler +
One last thing that I was thinking would be really interesting is to see the effect of upgrades on production, I think you could represent it using the following:
If you consider the result that is calculated for the production for a given #probes/bases as a steady state, you could graph production (y-axis) vs time (x-axis) and it would give you a straight line. However, if you were to throw in an upgrade into the graph at some time t0, you would see a dip in production (obviously) on the graph, but what I am more interested in is how long it takes for production to recover to its steady state value.
For example this would answer a question such as: if i am making constant marine production, i know in T amount of time, I will have X marines. However, if I were to put in an upgrade that cost 100 minerals somewhere in the time period T, do I just end up with 2 less marines at time T or do I have even less marines?
I am probably just over thinking the situation on this one, any thoughts?


Between the web app and the spreadsheet I think you should be able to get a good picture of generally how many probes you'll need. Realistically mechanical errors, like losing .25 sec for not having made something really throw the data off a lot more than you might think. The best way to use this is to use the estimate and then see how it works in application. Ultimately, you'll need to tweak it. These will send you in the right direction though.
kioskmongo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden33 Posts
October 11 2010 16:06 GMT
#51
This is amazing, thank you. And thank you so much for the web app, I got a terrible headache from trying to calculate this myself!
tahts halo dont worry
CursOr
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States6335 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 16:40:01
October 11 2010 16:38 GMT
#52
This is amazing. People talk about "working cutting" being one of the most advanced strategies, and this is pretty much a guide to do it.

Imagine cutting off 2 bases with the exact saturation to crank an exact composition at maximum efficiency (perfect amount of production buildings)... it would be damn near impossible to stop. Anyone who is interested in ridiculously strong 1/2 base pushes should try probe/scv cutting.
CJ forever (-_-(-_-(-_-(-_-)-_-)-_-)-_-)
Zocat
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2229 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 17:37:30
October 11 2010 17:37 GMT
#53
On October 11 2010 12:51 kidcrash89 wrote:
*** Mineral patches never become over-saturated. We can have an infinite number of workers on one mineral patch and each will mine at the same rate as one worker would from its own distinct patch.


Imho this assumptions kills your entire model.
8+ and especially 16+ workers on 1 base (assuming 8 mineral patches) will heavily influence your results.

Apart from that though your work looks great.
Merikh
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States918 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 17:54:42
October 11 2010 17:44 GMT
#54
So I was reading the liquidpedia zerg tips section. Has the op took in consideration about close and far mineral patches? Apparently to saturate a field you only need 2 workers on close mineral patches and 3 on the farther back mineral patches so I'm curious. Or is it always the same amount of minerals mined for each base on each map?
G4MR | I mod day9, djwheat and GLHF's stream
kidcrash89
Profile Joined August 2010
198 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 18:03:59
October 11 2010 17:59 GMT
#55
On October 12 2010 02:44 Merikh wrote:
So I was reading the liquidpedia zerg tips section. Has the op took in consideration about close and far mineral patches? Apparently to saturate a field you only need 2 workers on close mineral patches and 3 on the farther back mineral patches so I'm curious.


I averaged the results from the far/close mineral fields based on Kulas top-left spawn, which give something like 1 close field and 7 far fields. The gas geysers provided different mining rates as well, something particularly noticeable on Kulas. You could try to make a perfect model for every map and starting position, but it didn't seem practical to me. You could simply substitute in different values of the average time it takes to mine the fields for any specific map and starting zone. I just chose Kulas arbitrarily.

You could account for oversaturation too, but that adds a lot of trouble in the math that I'm not as familiar with since the effects of saturation aren't prominent until about 16+ drones or so (and then you need to factor in how many drones are at ease base, etc). Rounding the drone count (since you can't have 13.5 drones) and considering realistic assumptions, like the fact you can't do 3 things at once and you are likely to miss timings, even if only by a hair of a second, seem to counterbalance the fact that oversaturation isn't considered. No amount of math can account for mechanical errors.

I can try to add something after the calculations to consider saturation.
Pokornyx
Profile Joined April 2010
United States19 Posts
October 11 2010 18:42 GMT
#56
awesome! this is great
Rokk
Profile Joined March 2010
United States425 Posts
October 11 2010 18:52 GMT
#57
On October 12 2010 02:37 Zocat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2010 12:51 kidcrash89 wrote:
*** Mineral patches never become over-saturated. We can have an infinite number of workers on one mineral patch and each will mine at the same rate as one worker would from its own distinct patch.


Imho this assumptions kills your entire model.
8+ and especially 16+ workers on 1 base (assuming 8 mineral patches) will heavily influence your results.

Apart from that though your work looks great.


Mining is a near constant increase until you get to over 2 workers per patch. After that I think it increases about half as much per worker until 3 per patch. The model still works fine as long as you understand the limitations of it.
GeorgeForeman
Profile Joined April 2005
United States1746 Posts
October 11 2010 19:19 GMT
#58
Just wanted to say, "Thanks!" to the OP. This is a great app. It's fun to play around and see what mid- and late-game unit comps will work.
like a school bus through a bunch of kids
onmach
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1241 Posts
October 11 2010 19:35 GMT
#59
This is gold. That application seems to be spot on so far as I know, and is a definite improvement over my, eh, 3 geysers will do.

I've been making mistakes like trying to do a hydra break with 3 gas and 2 queens, when I could have gotten away with one queen and 4 gas, and gotten significantly more hydras out in the process.

Also my muta build had too many drones on minerals, more than I need to make a few zerglings and crawlers.

I can also see that it matches up with destiny's zergling bust on protoss fast expands he was doing last night. Roughly 20-25 drones on minerals, speed, +1, two queens, constant production, enough to beat multiple sentries, cannons, etc. with good control.
AdelSC123
Profile Joined March 2010
France362 Posts
October 11 2010 20:30 GMT
#60
Thanks OP
BadAxeEntertainment
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3 Posts
October 11 2010 20:35 GMT
#61
Wow awesome find! I was going an automatic 24 workers. This will really help.
The spot for Starcraft 2 Custom Map Reviews! www.youtube.com/user/BadAxeEntertainment
Moa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States790 Posts
October 11 2010 20:54 GMT
#62
To the people saying this cannot be used in game because you cannot know how many drones workers you have without counting them all.

You can put all workers in a control group by pressing Shift + Ctrl and clicking on a worker at each expansion until all are selected. The control group will give you your current worker count.

Also this is a pretty awesome spreadsheet.
^O^
optical630
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom768 Posts
October 11 2010 21:03 GMT
#63
now you can you know, play the game instead of do theory ;p
lowercase
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1047 Posts
October 11 2010 21:09 GMT
#64
I was really hoping to see "tl;dr" in the first post, but I was disappointed, and I'm too scared to post it myself.

Interesting read, though I will need some time to digest it.
That is not dead which can eternal lie...
kidcrash89
Profile Joined August 2010
198 Posts
October 11 2010 21:14 GMT
#65
On October 12 2010 06:09 lowercase wrote:
I was really hoping to see "tl;dr" in the first post, but I was disappointed, and I'm too scared to post it myself.

Interesting read, though I will need some time to digest it.


Spreadsheet and program are pretty self explanatory. The part which makes up for saturation can be useful. The rest is just for the curious.
iSTime
Profile Joined November 2006
1579 Posts
October 11 2010 21:15 GMT
#66
On October 11 2010 13:59 SneakPeek wrote:
... i dont get it. so basically you are using math to figure out how many workers you need for sustaining the amount of units you are having. therefore this shows when to get expansions. how bout teching up? and what to do when you are harassed at the mineral line? >.<"


... i dont get it. so basically in school they told me how to add 2 numbers. but in real life you have to know what the numbers mean and where to get them from and tehres always some complications. what is this "math" supposed to be useful for?
www.infinityseven.net
Damaskinos
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany139 Posts
October 11 2010 21:37 GMT
#67
Excellent work. Did something similar 2 weeks ago and my results are quite similar.
Gonna copy/paste your work though into MS Word, it's awsomely formulate! Thumbs up!
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Matthew 7:6
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 14m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 232
StarCraft: Brood War
PianO 591
Free 466
Leta 136
Noble 16
Bale 14
Shine 14
Dota 2
monkeys_forever585
XcaliburYe232
ODPixel226
League of Legends
JimRising 620
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K597
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King187
Westballz31
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor142
Other Games
summit1g12007
ViBE223
Fuzer 153
SortOf88
NeuroSwarm55
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick5181
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH381
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2159
League of Legends
• Rush2429
• HappyZerGling83
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
3h 14m
Replay Cast
1d 2h
WardiTV European League
1d 8h
ShoWTimE vs sebesdes
Percival vs NightPhoenix
Shameless vs Nicoract
Krystianer vs Scarlett
ByuN vs uThermal
Harstem vs HeRoMaRinE
PiGosaur Monday
1d 16h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Epic.LAN
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
Epic.LAN
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Online Event
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Liquipedia Results

Completed

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.