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I like your arguing for and against the war hound. Although the numbers probably could be adjusted to make it fit it would still seem like it overlaps too much with bio and provides even more reasons to not build tanks. It would be either to similar to the thor or the marauder and instead of them all being different options, whichever turns out to be the best would be used far more than the others.
Really just opinion here, though if bio offers high mobility, mech can be the more powerful force when in position. The war hound would seem the equivalent of creating a bio 'siege mode' unit.
Getting a good force of tanks and mines set up should be near suicide to push into without a specific plan to deal with it, while something like hellions/banshees can still provide mech with mobile units. With thors getting different AA allowing them to deal with every type of air unit, mech has some good potential.
I am not sure where the mine is just now, does it ignore immortal shields? the raven seeker missile did, i am guessing it still does and immortals are too slow to get away.
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Realistically, the only ability that would work for the warhound to help counter immortals would be to give it something that has an effect like EMP in getting rid of shields. Making it exactly like ghost EMP would be stupid though. Maybe single target on a cooldown.
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United States4883 Posts
On January 05 2013 10:47 MasterCynical wrote:
No. Not only did it overlap with the marauder and marine, it was also making the thor partially redundant. The playstyle it encouraged was turning mech into a more deathbally version of bio. The whole design of the Warhound was not mech like, it was bio like. It didn't add to positional play at all.
Part of their original design was to completely counter siege tanks, just as the same with the immortal. This would ruin TvT pretty much.
You could call for a complete redesign in role, but what role can it possibly fill in mech? Putting number tweaking and balance aside, we now have the meatshield/fodder unit (hellbat), the seige unit, the anti air (new thor), harassment and quick burst damage(hellion and widow mine). What else is there?
I was discussing this is my other thread, "Tanks, Widow Mines, And Space Control":
Quite honestly, the most difficult things for the mech army in TvP are immortals and archons. Many argue that getting ghosts deals with this, and it does. HOWEVER, ghost tech is an extraordinarily gas-expensive and time-expensive investment; in most cases, you can't have ghosts until safely on 3 bases with a good tank count. Providing a tier 2 soft counter such as a softened warhound could provide mech with the ability to safely move around the map without fear of instantly losing the game to some kind of immortal/archon/chargelot army, allowing for a safer transition into the later stages of the game.
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I'd like the return of the Warhound-- or even better, bring back the Goliath, or make the Warhound more like the Goliath.
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A changed Warhound would be perfect!
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Warhound has no place in SC2.
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I would like to see the warhound reintroduced as its original role, a mech goliath-like unit that counters armored air units like carriers, voidrays, and broodlords.
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Agree with OP, Warhound wasn't balanced and it should be nerfed or buff the others against it instead of removing it
No. Not only did it overlap with the marauder and marine, it was also making the thor partially redundant. The playstyle it encouraged was turning mech into a more deathbally version of bio. The whole design of the Warhound was not mech like, it was bio like. It didn't add to positional play at all.
Part of their original design was to completely counter siege tanks, just as the same with the immortal. This would ruin TvT pretty much.
You could call for a complete redesign in role, but what role can it possibly fill in mech? Putting number tweaking and balance aside, we now have the meatshield/fodder unit (hellbat), the seige and dps unit(tank), the anti air (new thor), harassment and quick burst damage(hellion and widow mine). What else is there
Maybe it could fill anti-air, thors are not really Anti-Air because of its large size and supply. The main AA in mech army TvP still Vikings with thors support. Make Warhound like Goliath's role in BW Mech play and everything will be fine
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Possible Stats for New Warhound:
I am thinking of a goliath type units with a slight increase in stats to account for its increased cost.
Price: 150/75
Supply: 2
Buildtime: 40 seconds
Life: 220 hp / 1 armor
Ground Attack: 16(+2) with cooldown of 1 sec
Air Attack: 16(+2) x 2 with cooldown of 1.5 sec
Ground Attack Range: 6
Air Attack Range: 9.5
Movespeed: 2.81
Lategame Upgrade: Ability to target ground and air simutaneously?
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Just bring back the damn goliath. That's what the warhound REALLY was before the haywire missile change anyways. I agree that we didnt really need another armored killer or anti-mech.. However, it did have specific intentions on its implementation.. First, it was supposed to be a mobile AA unit.. That was scrapped completely. Then, they said well lets make an anti-mech unit.. Something that can lighten up the TvT tank stalemate/shithole, etc. Then they remove the unit from the game and completely scrap that idea. It's ridiculous. Just give us the goliath (or make a new unit with a different name...Whatever floats your boat), it will satisfy the needs of the metagame. I cant be the only one here that has seen Blizzard introducing "new units" which were basically components BW units with new names and fancy 3D designs. hellbat= firebat, swarm host = flying defiler. We're hitting that "grey area" where people will hate Blizzard and say, SC2 is supposed to be a new game with new units and new strategies and the other half screaming that BW was the shit and it should be a continuation of its greatness. No matter what people will be left disappointed you can't please everyone.
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On January 05 2013 10:56 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 10:47 MasterCynical wrote:
No. Not only did it overlap with the marauder and marine, it was also making the thor partially redundant. The playstyle it encouraged was turning mech into a more deathbally version of bio. The whole design of the Warhound was not mech like, it was bio like. It didn't add to positional play at all.
Part of their original design was to completely counter siege tanks, just as the same with the immortal. This would ruin TvT pretty much.
You could call for a complete redesign in role, but what role can it possibly fill in mech? Putting number tweaking and balance aside, we now have the meatshield/fodder unit (hellbat), the seige unit, the anti air (new thor), harassment and quick burst damage(hellion and widow mine). What else is there?
I was discussing this is my other thread, "Tanks, Widow Mines, And Space Control": Quite honestly, the most difficult things for the mech army in TvP are immortals and archons. Many argue that getting ghosts deals with this, and it does. HOWEVER, ghost tech is an extraordinarily gas-expensive and time-expensive investment; in most cases, you can't have ghosts until safely on 3 bases with a good tank count. Providing a tier 2 soft counter such as a softened warhound could provide mech with the ability to safely move around the map without fear of instantly losing the game to some kind of immortal/archon/chargelot army, allowing for a safer transition into the later stages of the game.
You are too fixated on TvP pure mech. There are many better options to make pure mech TvP more viable than to add a better marauder into mech, that would be the lazy option. Options such as buffs to the tank, allowing the hellbat to absorb more damage or even give the thor an ability thats good at taking down shields. Stuff like that. We dont need an entire new unit just to make one playstyle work in one matchup, especially one that makes mech too similar to bio. The team at Blizzard have stated that this is one of their goals.
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@loccstana: Or better give vikings anti-air even in ground mode with those stats with two big riffles guns as Goliath 
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foxj- this was actually how they were originally designed. Goliaths able to lift off, rather than shitty Valkyries without splash that can land and be useless. Don't need a new unit if you just make Vikings able to use their AA attack from the ground.
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Canada11435 Posts
No mistake at all. I made that big ol' In Defence of Mech blog that was a sideways critique of the Warhound and I still stand by it. I'm not exactly sure how being on separate tech trees get's rid of the unit design overlap. It's just different ways of getting more or less the same infantry unit. It actually overlaps with the marine, marauder, hellbat, Warhound, and Thor. Walking infantry units.
It wasn't mech except that it happened to come from a factory and we are better of without it. Far better to play around with the Mine and better moving micro for every unit rather than bringing that back. Comparing it to the roach for why it should be back is not a good thing in my opinion. And comparing it to the marine just demonstrates how awesome marines are and what exactly is the warhound bringing to the table that is different then slightly different stats.
Furthermore, Warhounds were designed to be anti-tank. I'm still not convinced we've got the positional game going on yet, but Warhounds with their mech-bonus damage is the anti-thesis to positional play.
Good riddance says I and well done by Blizzard.
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On January 05 2013 11:19 foxj wrote:Agree with OP, Warhound wasn't balanced and it should be nerfed or buff the others against it instead of removing it Show nested quote +
No. Not only did it overlap with the marauder and marine, it was also making the thor partially redundant. The playstyle it encouraged was turning mech into a more deathbally version of bio. The whole design of the Warhound was not mech like, it was bio like. It didn't add to positional play at all.
Part of their original design was to completely counter siege tanks, just as the same with the immortal. This would ruin TvT pretty much.
You could call for a complete redesign in role, but what role can it possibly fill in mech? Putting number tweaking and balance aside, we now have the meatshield/fodder unit (hellbat), the seige and dps unit(tank), the anti air (new thor), harassment and quick burst damage(hellion and widow mine). What else is there
Maybe it could fill anti-air, thors are not really Anti-Air because of its large size and supply. The main AA in mech army TvP still Vikings with thors support. Make Warhound like Goliath's role in BW Mech play and everything will be fine
With the new thors high impact payload, The thor is like a couple of goliaths glued together now. Would the addition of a goliath like warhound overlap too much with this?
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T.O.P
469 Posts
i think terrans need warhound or a new unit to support the tanks
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On January 05 2013 11:34 ledarsi wrote:
foxj- this was actually how they were originally designed. Goliaths able to lift off, rather than shitty Valkyries without splash that can land and be useless. Don't need a new unit if you just make Vikings able to use their AA attack from the ground.
Yea, I read about that too from Blizzard development note. I also think that the solution to mech in TvP would be Vikings sharing vehicle upgrades and also a slight unit size buff. With 2 attacks, it should shoots down immortal shields quite fast.
And vikings being able to produced 2 at a time. It really should become the new buffer for mech play.
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On January 05 2013 09:50 Hider wrote:
no we didn't make a mistake - move on.
Second this.
On January 05 2013 11:24 Loccstana wrote:
Possible Stats for New Warhound:
I am thinking of a goliath type units with a slight increase in stats to account for its increased cost.
Price: 150/75
Supply: 2
Buildtime: 40 seconds
Life: 220 hp / 1 armor
Ground Attack: 16(+2) with cooldown of 1 sec
Air Attack: 16(+2) x 2 with cooldown of 1.5 sec
Ground Attack Range: 6
Air Attack Range: 9.5
Movespeed: 2.81
Lategame Upgrade: Ability to target ground and air simutaneously?
Hilarious, rolf.
Do you realize that your """"New Warhound"""" is like a roach that move faster, have more hp, twice dps, hit air with huge radius and even more dps, at same suply cost, but only with twice cost? And the Upgrade is (hard to believe) at the same "level".
A ball of these would be the ultimate deathball, even worse than the old warhound
Edit: I think i've been trolled u.u
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The Warhound was better than the Marauder in every way, expept he couldn't stim. I was really upset when the removed them, but I think its fine now. But I really don't like the widow mine at all right now.
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EPT
