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Eppa!
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden4641 Posts
August 05 2016 17:26 GMT
#27761
That doesn't even make sense teut:
Zerg: Guardian, Lurkers, Devourer.
Terran: Marines, Vultures, BCs, Wraiths, Firebats
etc. BW units are all over the place.
"Can't wait till Monday" Cixah+Waveofshadow. "Needs to be monday. Weekend please go by quickly." Gahlo
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
August 05 2016 17:44 GMT
#27762
Also in BW usually units died in droves on both sides, but in SC2 you just have an army annihilate the other, and not lose enough not to do it again later (at least in WoL and what little of HotS I watched), so once you win a fight your advantage snowballs pretty stupidly.

In BW you both had to rebuild your army, pretty much (or the winner just won the game too), which made having a good macro and retaining your economy and being able to keep producing even during the fights so important. Sure one army and a half dies, but if you're on more bases you're both on full army at the same time and you can do it again, and unless your opponent matches your macro you'll run him out of ressources.
Then you add all the drops and sneaky expos and stuff to switch that dynamic.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23470 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-05 18:06:08
August 05 2016 18:01 GMT
#27763
On August 06 2016 02:26 Eppa! wrote:
That doesn't even make sense teut:
Zerg: Guardian, Lurkers, Devourer.
Terran: Marines, Vultures, BCs, Wraiths, Firebats
etc. BW units are all over the place.


Those units don't stray too far, and they usually are trying to fit a specific role. Siege unit, Defensive unit, Capital ship

marines fit terran pretty exactly wtf
high range with mobility (stim) faster than zealot slower than zergling
damage more than zealot less than zergling
hp less than zealot more than zergling

The only difference is they are faster and more mobile but squishier than most terran units but that makes sense since they are infantry

aka Teutonica
Frolossus
Profile Joined February 2010
United States4779 Posts
August 05 2016 18:17 GMT
#27764
On August 06 2016 00:59 Eppa! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2016 00:45 Seuss wrote:
I want BW with a better skin and the basic QoL changes. Unit selection improvements, rallying, and even automatic worker assignment at game start are fine in my book.

However, fixing pathing is a dealbreaker. You can't fix pathing without fundamentally changing how combat, positioning, and basic strategy worked in BW. It'll look like BW, but it won't be BW if they do that.

SEE: How the Homeworld HD remake screwed things up because fleet behavior/pathing/targeting didn't mimic the original, which completely changed balance and combat.

Tbh hd sprites, widescreen support and costum hotkeys is just enough, BW is great game as it is doesn't need any thing that screws with balance.

By todays standards Broodwar is very much a crappy game but so is Melee. The long term playability of both games has nothing to do with intentional design and very much with luck in how deep the games are and how high the replayability is.

no, the bare minimum is color fix, window mode, & matchmaking
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23470 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-05 18:28:50
August 05 2016 18:26 GMT
#27765
lol eppa
bw is a shitty game but its replayable mostly because of luck
right

sure

name me all the better games they aren't replayable because of luck

street fighter is a shitty game but they got lucky right
which is why they remake the same thing with slightly different mechanics and new characters and it's still a huge success

is dota a shitty game too
aka Teutonica
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
August 05 2016 18:37 GMT
#27766
On August 06 2016 03:26 Slayer91 wrote:
is dota a shitty game too

yes

but i've only played it like twice
It's your boy Guzma!
Eppa!
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden4641 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-05 18:42:12
August 05 2016 18:38 GMT
#27767
Street fighter was a shitty game until 3 it then been "patched countless times, Doto is probably the most patched game in existence look up what the game used to be and you will see a shit game. SC had one expansion and like 1 or 2 balance patches.
"Can't wait till Monday" Cixah+Waveofshadow. "Needs to be monday. Weekend please go by quickly." Gahlo
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23470 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-05 18:46:59
August 05 2016 18:45 GMT
#27768
Street fighter 2 was much better than sf3 wtf

bw didn't have to be patched because of all the checks and balances against snowballing and counters to everything
sounds like good design to me

dota added tons of new heroes too so that format is always going to have to be patched a ton
sf2 was pretty bad balance wise but it was there was enough room for skill that it was popular anyway
aka Teutonica
AlterKot
Profile Blog Joined January 2014
Poland7525 Posts
August 05 2016 20:27 GMT
#27769
If by "third Street Fighter" you mean SF2 turbo then you're not wrong.
Americans don't like to use unblockables, it is considered not honest. You press a button at the wrong time and hit the other person, you are random, not a top player. You DP Sim's far fierce, it is random and not honest.
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
August 05 2016 20:37 GMT
#27770
still not sure what you meant by me contradicting myself, my midgame TvP was (is?) like the only MU that DIDN'T deathball in sc2 precisely because marauders make protoss buildings look like they're made of cardboard
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
Fildun
Profile Joined December 2012
Netherlands4124 Posts
August 05 2016 20:59 GMT
#27771
On August 06 2016 05:37 Scip wrote:
still not sure what you meant by me contradicting myself, my midgame TvP was (is?) like the only MU that DIDN'T deathball in sc2 precisely because marauders make protoss buildings look like they're made of cardboard

You said buildings die faster in BW and then followed it up by an anecdote about SC2 buildings dying fast.
At least I think that's what he meant.
phyvo
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5635 Posts
August 05 2016 21:02 GMT
#27772
I just finished a week of proofing field data for the first time (rather than just entering it). I feel like I learned a lot and think that every field technician needs to go through the experience of entering and proofing their or someone else's data. It just shows how hard good science is at even the most basic level.
"BE A MANGO TO SLEEP LIKE A SNORING TIGER" - Monte
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
August 05 2016 21:07 GMT
#27773
On August 06 2016 06:02 phyvo wrote:
I just finished a week of proofing field data for the first time (rather than just entering it). I feel like I learned a lot and think that every field technician needs to go through the experience of entering and proofing their or someone else's data. It just shows how hard good science is at even the most basic level.


Working in my job has made me much more cognizant of what I enter into data fields elsewhere. Dealing with crap data, especially from manual string entry, is a nightmare.
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-05 21:16:54
August 05 2016 21:16 GMT
#27774
got matched up vs pro team again in Rainbow 6 and got pooped on. >.< need to work harder so i don't need warmup rounds.
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
August 05 2016 21:26 GMT
#27775
On August 06 2016 03:45 Slayer91 wrote:
Street fighter 2 was much better than sf3 wtf

bw didn't have to be patched because of all the checks and balances against snowballing and counters to everything
sounds like good design to me

dota added tons of new heroes too so that format is always going to have to be patched a ton
sf2 was pretty bad balance wise but it was there was enough room for skill that it was popular anyway

BW didn't have to be patched because it had smart and creative people making maps and not fucking Blizzard. Just look at WC3 if you wonder what would've happened without them.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
August 06 2016 01:10 GMT
#27776
"Variance", yeah, sure, I know, well, fuck variance.
10 people, surprising, but the 2 foreigners in town only for the summer were here, and a couple non-regulars too.

+ Show Spoiler [draft] +
I again focus too much of a colour, thinking I'm in it, only to notice I've got only 2 cards from my first 14 in it...
This time it's red. I pass Alchemist's Greetings for a white card pick 2, then Sigardian Priest to pick Savage Alliance. I also get the Lurker, Pray Upon, I pass a Survivalist for a Sigardian Priest... G looks more open than R but I've got 9 or 10 W cards. Despite this there was so much W in the early packs that my neighbour went W too, astonished that I "pushed" him in it ('cause of Savage Alliance over Priest basically).
I pick some more W in pack 2 but want to focus on choosing my 2nd colour. There's less G, it's kinda good, but dries fast, and I get a Ride Down, so I choose to go RW. I get passed Ulrich 4th pick or something so I know I'll be splashing anyway... although I have a double W on Thalia's Lancers.

Pack 3 has almost nothing for me, and even less R than G... Obsessive Skinner's interesting, but I receive 3rd pick Breakneck Rider despite knowing at least one of my 2 neighbours is in red (spoiler: they're both, but the guy who opened it picked Nahiri). I pass the UW rare land despite picking Apothecary Geist + Spectral Shepherd... even with the G splash, that's a land in my colours and you never know.

My deck's basically almost 2/3rd CMC 3.
Couple of 2-drops (inc. Priest), then almost half my creatures + tricks at 3 mana, couple 4-drops for the curve, then Outcast/Lancers/Ulrich.
Removal is Ride Down, Bound by Moonsilver, Faith Unbroken, Blessed Alliance, Savage Alliance. So impressive. Situational, yeah. Gotta hope with 10 people noone was able to draft Emerge.

Oh, about pack 2. My left neighbour's picks 3-4-5 were 3x Choking Restraints, and a couple picks later his second Sigardian Priest. Don't just fucking ask me how I put you in W when my first pack is almost mono-W and you get all that fucking shit handed to yourself. He'll also play RG wolves and GW humans, so he'll dodge the 2 (potentially 3) decks equipped to deal with enchants at the table.

But basically I should have went on GW picking stuff like both Priests, the Survivalists, etc. splash R for Ulrich, and hopefully get more G pack 2. I think. Overestimating how much I'm in a colour because of a couple picks even if I end up not picking that colour more later (and picking decent W over good G because I believe I'm in RW) is a recurring mistake I didn't have in early SOI and I need to fix.

+ Show Spoiler [matches] +
Match 1 vs UB zombies
Hey it's the UB guy from last friday. At least he doesn't have double mythics this time. He also refuses to believe me when I amicably say I checked Ruthless Disposal on Gatherer, so they aren't mistaken if it happens again (he'll ask the usual judge after the match, who'll correct him).
So. You know what UB runs? Bounce and hard removal to 2/3-for-1 my auras, and recursion to get the long run. As the judge/usual winner tells me, yeah it's a shit match-up for Boros in EMN.
Game 1 I only win because he misplays, has 4 creatures out to my 2 and tries to transform Pariah. I've been spending 4 turns doing nothing because I don't have the mana for a spell + escalated Savage Alliance to kill it so of course I'm glad he did it.
Game 2 I keep a 5-lander on the draw, get 3 lands in 4 draws, then emerged Distended Mindbender removes the only non-land card in my hand. 2 land draws later I scoop.
Still finish 2-1 because I get a curve out with turn 6 Lancer's into Ulrich the next turn hurts.
1-0

Match 2 vs UB zombies
Oh hey you remember variance? Yeah? I've got 6 possibles opponents ('cause of a draw), one is prob loss since it's the usual winner and his "pack 2 W" deck, other 4 are decent to great odds for me, but I've got to get paired with my 2nd worst match-up, and worst match-up actually drafted tonight, twice in a row.
Yeah. Fuck variance.
He's got the actual zombie deck, with Dark Salvation, a couple mill ghouls/crows, Deterrence and Unsubstantiate, Liliana's Elite which becomes good in such a deck, Graf Harvest, Spontaneous Mutations, and 2 emerge creatures including the Flash crab.
I lose one game to the crab basically, with my auras bounced, my creatures blown out, etc.
I win the next game thanks to Lancers sticking (even though I couldn't play Ulrich) and Borrowed Grace when he doesn't block everything.
Game 3 he gets a slow start but because I don't hit many lands I basically can't both tap his Feaster and play my 5-drops which slows me down a fuckton (can't play cultist staff + equip too). Maybe I should have. My issue there is that I'm ahead, but if I try to push the enveloppe (like tapping out for Lancers or playing Lunarch Mantle to go in) and he's got an answer I'm blown out, and if I take it slowly he may have time to draw answers if he didn't have them.
Result: he had the answers anyway (Unsubstantiate, and Dark Salvation has been there for awhile). I play Ulrich to buff Lancers and go in for Lethal (though I think I didn't need to 'cause I finally had Lunarch on it), he bounces Lancers, next turn uses his shitty ghouls to kill Ulrich with Dark Salvation and play Graf Harvest. The next turn he reanimates Ulrich.
I may have won that match with one more mana, or if I'd been more willing to take damage from the Feaster by tapping out to do more stuff. But tl;dr it's still just a fucking shit match-up if I don't either get the perfect split of lands to play around bounces, or the Slayer in hand to get my auras back (he's on the bottom of the deck). I was also lucky that he milled his crab or I'd have had to worry about that too.
1-1, fuck that match-up which is miserable to play and unwinnable if my opponents has his bounce in hand early, and fuck variance which submits me to it twice in a row.

Match 3 vs RGb wolves
He's the guy splashing Nahiri. Now, for the penultimate "fuck variance", I had 4 potential opponents and all good match-ups 'cept a standard one (he's UG but no bounce or emerge so my removal/auras are on).
At the end of construction I asked him if he splashed Grim Flayer too, he said no but showed me Inner Struggle, Lightning Axe and Prey Upon, wondering if he should put them in the deck. I tell him they're all decent to super good and depend on his creatures/madness cards basically. Then I notice he's got shit like Distemper of the Blood in his build, so I make him shove it out and put the 3 good cards in.

Game 1 he removes my first bigger size creature with the Axe. Then he'll kill my flipped Outcast with a combo of flipped Smoldering attack trigger + Inner Struggle.
I did misplay there, because I played and equipped cultist staff on Outcast on 6 mana, while he had Smoldering out. I only realised later that I should have attacked, waited for him to untap and transform Smoldering, to cast Savage Alliance in response and blow him out. I can't kill the 6/4, and it's hitting me for 8 so now I can't race anymore (I'm on 8 after that).
'cept he mulled to 6 on the play, discarded a card to the Axe, and still got more gas than me. Thanks, mana flood.

Game 2 I keep a 2-lander (RG) with 3 W cards and 2 R ones. I have 3 turns to pick a 3rd land, ideally one of my 7 plains.
Let's cut it short: I'll get a mountain, 2-3 more creatures, then 3 other W cards, cultist staff, Ulrich. I scoop because he actually draws stuff and despite my more aggressive deck even gets to attack with Blood Mist, and check. First plains is the 20th card. Not only did I not play at all, the game was decided as soon as I didn't mulligan.
FUCK.
VARIANCE.

1-2. Slogged through two fucking miserable matches, one of which was almost entirely out of my control (had a bunch of choices, cool, but in the end they didn't matter to the outcome), of the only 2 decks of a bad match-up for me amongst 9 people, and then didn't play a third match.
What an evening! What an interesting bit of Magic!

+ Show Spoiler +
Let's get this down.
Had I won the 2nd match I'd be 2nd (I'd have lost to my neighbour in the finals (sure shot because of the draws), it was still kinda close in the end.
Had I won the 3rd match I'd be 4th (and considering his deck and our curves I start out much faster than him and my high end is also stronger, he's got hard removal but nothing to deal with my auras so I could basically challenge him with my bigger creatures to draw his removal then play mine, or move Bound around; game 1 was mostly flood (without my mistake we'd have went in topdeck mode with me on more lands so not making the mistake wouldn't have won me the game), there was no game 2).

I'm 7th instead.
We've got Nahiri, Grim Flayer, Port Town, Rattlechains, Distended Mindbender, 2x Elder Deep-Fiend, Collective Defiance, etc.
So I end up with foil Voldaren Pariah (Euro prices are pretty low, Pariah's actually worth nothing but I didn't know, and Mindbender/EDF are cheap here, like ~3.5€ post-spike), To the Slaughter, Sigarda's Aid and a foil Plains.
Thanks variance.


EMN still looks interesting, but because I keep getting matched with Emerge and when I don't I'm matched against U-anything-that-hoses-W anyway whenever I draft White, I'm just already starting to get fucking sick of it.
(Oh yeah and drafting as 10 still sucks. "Who's closest to the good packs opened?")
It's just not enjoyable. Sure, remove the OP archetype, don't match W into the colours that void all its removal and buffs, and suddenly it's a fine and fun format, but hey.
Hey.
"It's just variance", right?
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
sung_moon
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10110 Posts
August 06 2016 01:31 GMT
#27777
Suicide Squad is better than the reviews are saying it is imo. Really not sure why the reviews are so harsh. Could be because i went in with low expectations.

I enjoyed it at least, and I'll watch practically anything with Margot Robbie.
Forever Young
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-06 01:40:53
August 06 2016 01:40 GMT
#27778
On August 06 2016 01:10 Numy wrote:Game design "standards" are really just buzz PR bullshit. It's not a hard science field. The standards change based on how society perceives things. Dark Souls type games were known as terrible design prior to Dark Souls and yet now it's good intelligent design. .


Dark Souls is not good, intelligent design and claiming many people think it is or that it is some standard is very misleading.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
August 06 2016 01:56 GMT
#27779
TL;dr "just because some hipsters vocally claim it to be standard doesn't mean it is"?
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
August 06 2016 03:19 GMT
#27780
Suicide Squad was... not good. It was like a movie put together by someone who had a rough idea of what an action movie was supposed to be like and an even vaguer idea of how to write a story. Still better than Batman v Superman though, so that's... something.

On August 06 2016 10:31 sung_moon wrote:
Suicide Squad is better than the reviews are saying it is imo. Really not sure why the reviews are so harsh. Could be because i went in with low expectations.

I enjoyed it at least, and I'll watch practically anything with Margot Robbie.

There were some ok bits, but I can't call it good by any stretch of the imagination. I can say the same things I said about Batman vs Superman - casting and acting was alright, some decent action beats, but the writing was pretty garbage and there was a bunch of shit that just felt shoehorned in because WB keeps looking at Marvel and failing to realize what worldbuilding is actually about.
It's your boy Guzma!
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