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On August 06 2016 00:45 Seuss wrote:
I want BW with a better skin and the basic QoL changes. Unit selection improvements, rallying, and even automatic worker assignment at game start are fine in my book.
However, fixing pathing is a dealbreaker. You can't fix pathing without fundamentally changing how combat, positioning, and basic strategy worked in BW. It'll look like BW, but it won't be BW if they do that.
SEE: How the Homeworld HD remake screwed things up because fleet behavior/pathing/targeting didn't mimic the original, which completely changed balance and combat.
Tbh hd sprites, widescreen support and costum hotkeys is just enough, BW is great game as it is doesn't need any thing that screws with balance.
By todays standards Broodwar is very much a crappy game but so is Melee. The long term playability of both games has nothing to do with intentional design and very much with luck in how deep the games are and how high the replayability is.
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On August 06 2016 00:53 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 00:45 Seuss wrote:
I want BW with a better skin and the basic QoL changes. Unit selection improvements, rallying, and even automatic worker assignment at game start are fine in my book.
However, fixing pathing is a dealbreaker. You can't fix pathing without fundamentally changing how combat, positioning, and basic strategy worked in BW. It'll look like BW, but it won't be BW if they do that.
SEE: How the Homeworld HD remake screwed things up because fleet behavior/pathing/targeting didn't mimic the original, which completely changed balance and combat. Honestly I don't think it would even look like broodwar without my dragoons/goliaths wandering randomly alongside cliff faces and constantly bumping into each other.
Absolutely. Fixing this would be like "fixing" Mutalisk stacking. Patently wrong.
To killerdog's point, I don't think unit selection upgrades will promote death balls in the BW HD remaster as long as pathing and unit collision are effectively unchanged. Like, if you could hack BW to allow more units to be selected you still wouldn't see deathballs because unit collision, pathing, and how those interact with chokes makes deathballing bad.
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On August 06 2016 00:59 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 00:45 Seuss wrote:
I want BW with a better skin and the basic QoL changes. Unit selection improvements, rallying, and even automatic worker assignment at game start are fine in my book.
However, fixing pathing is a dealbreaker. You can't fix pathing without fundamentally changing how combat, positioning, and basic strategy worked in BW. It'll look like BW, but it won't be BW if they do that.
SEE: How the Homeworld HD remake screwed things up because fleet behavior/pathing/targeting didn't mimic the original, which completely changed balance and combat. Tbh hd sprites, widescreen support and costum hotkeys is just enough, BW is great game as it is doesn't need any thing that screws with balance. By todays standards Broodwar is very much a crappy game but so is Melee. The long term playability of both games has nothing to do with intentional design and very much with luck in how deep the games are and how high the replayability is.
Game design "standards" are really just buzz PR bullshit. It's not a hard science field. The standards change based on how society perceives things. Dark Souls type games were known as terrible design prior to Dark Souls and yet now it's good intelligent design.
I honestly thing too many people in the field sit there circle jerking each other over what constitutes "good" design then fail to expand their horizons until someone else who isn't so narrow minded comes up with new intelligent design or even merely goes back to older principles and reestablishes them. Broodwar had a lot of really good design choices which if touched up to match current technology would hardly make it a crappy game.
Anyway I think I just got triggered there. Reminds me so much of that one Riot devs tweet about Dota. Seeing such narrow mindedness pisses me off.
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I dunno, maybe I've gotten more casual in my old age, but I just like smoother controls over "depth" afforded by things being broken/buggy. But, I very much do understand how people can enjoy the latter.
Blizzcon will be pretty interesting this year. Blizz has been knocking it out of the park lately, so I'm a happy little fanboy.
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France45622 Posts
You don't even need to talk about deathballs to dip into how gamebreaking pathing could get.
Just imagine Reaver drops with "good" pathing.
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On August 06 2016 01:24 Alaric wrote:
You don't even need to talk about deathballs to dip into how gamebreaking pathing could get.
Just imagine Reaver drops with "good" pathing.
And no dud scarabs
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People actually think DS has good controls and shit? 12 control groups and hotkeys all over the place, isn't antifun or whatever buzzword it's bad design. BW had a lot of things right but it's not epitome of good choices.
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kdoge you have no idea what you're talking about
the design of brood war is fucking immaculate
deathballs wouldn't break the game because there's tons of devastating fucking splash damage spells
you'd literally be able to plague/psi storm/tank splash half an army if they pathed like SC2
there are a few exceptions where glitches worked out
reavers would be overtuned, would have to do something like nerf their damage or nerf speed shuttles
zerg would be too weak without muta stacking but this could probably be fixed by removing firebats so that terran can't so easily deal with zergling backstabs
also zerglings with better pathing would have a better chance against marines/medic in low numbers
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France45622 Posts
Well they had to destroy siege mode damage because "smart" targeting and no overkill made armies evaporate with like 4 tanks so...
On August 06 2016 01:25 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 01:24 Alaric wrote:
You don't even need to talk about deathballs to dip into how gamebreaking pathing could get.
Just imagine Reaver drops with "good" pathing. And no dud scarabs
That's what I said: a scarab is basically a dud because pathing prevented it from finding its target before its duration expired. Now every scarab would kill a bunch of workers without fail.
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On August 06 2016 01:21 Requizen wrote:
I dunno, maybe I've gotten more casual in my old age, but I just like smoother controls over "depth" afforded by things being broken/buggy. But, I very much do understand how people can enjoy the latter.
Blizzcon will be pretty interesting this year. Blizz has been knocking it out of the park lately, so I'm a happy little fanboy.
Interestingly enough you can tie this conversation into the one we had awhile back about Dungeon/Raid Finder in WoW. It made things so much more convenient and yet may have had a negative impact on the game but it's something that you just can't go back from either.
Anyway broken/buggy controls is a bit different than pathing as a whole.
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dungeon finder was fine, maybe should have had a hard limit before it searched people outside your server though, meeting randoms in dungeons was a great thing about wow
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On August 06 2016 01:29 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 01:21 Requizen wrote:
I dunno, maybe I've gotten more casual in my old age, but I just like smoother controls over "depth" afforded by things being broken/buggy. But, I very much do understand how people can enjoy the latter.
Blizzcon will be pretty interesting this year. Blizz has been knocking it out of the park lately, so I'm a happy little fanboy. Interestingly enough you can tie this conversation into the one we had awhile back about Dungeon/Raid Finder in WoW. It made things so much more convenient and yet may have had a negative impact on the game but it's something that you just can't go back from either. Anyway broken/buggy controls is a bit different than pathing as a whole.
That's very true. Any game that "improves" over time (or in an update/remake like this BW one) is going to lose people that liked how it worked, it just has to appeal to enough people to bring in an equivalent amount.
I mean, is there a way to fix the bugs in BW without changing the way it feels? Like, fix pathing so it's not stupid but still end up moving similarly, or is the movement/feeling tied inherently in with the brokenness? Interesting things to consider.
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the small glitches are overstated because of how often you've come to rely on them in certain niche cases
BW has tons of things like very strong defensive advantages and broken as fuck spells that allow people who are behind to get ahead and generally reward more careful play with less units while still having the RTS mechanic of a superior economy giving you a huge advantage which leads to a lot of dynamic play
you can't just sit on a lead and deathball someone, if they get bases with defenses up or harass your workers you can fall behind very quickly
the fact that there are tons of small important factors rather than just being able to dominate with a strong army alone help make the feel and pace of the game
also factors like how satisfying the graphics/sound effects are when units die
totally not there in sc2
definitely there in league btw
I tried to play FreeCol which is a port of Colonization with new graphics but no license rights and shit
the interface was clunky the visuals lacked clarity and the sound effects were god damn awful
couldn't play it at all
paid like 6 dollars for the old dos version on great old games (some cunt bought the license rights zzzz)
no regrets
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Also correct me if Im wrong but buildings seem to die a lot faster in BW than in sc2, that is a huge reason as well (case in point: PvT in sc2 works the way it does because you can bop a nexus in 4 seconds)
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I don't really know if it was good or bad. Just thought the conversation around it is interesting. One thing I do know is that hardships tend to create more vivid memories than things we get through with ease. Over the years I think a lot of design forgot about this concept and tried too hard to make things as easy or convenient as possible. At the same time nothing can be more frustrating than fighting with the game just to play it.
The Dungeon Finder was more a tipping point I think. They kept making less and less reason to be engaged in the "world" until they finally released that which while wonderful on it's own just meant there was almost no reason to be inside the world doing stuff. It shrunk the sense of the world to a bunch of UI screens.
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On August 06 2016 01:42 Scip wrote:
Also correct me if Im wrong but buildings seem to die a lot faster in BW than in sc2, that is a huge reason as well (case in point: PvT in sc2 works the way it does because you can bop a nexus in 4 seconds)
Your post just contradicted itself scip
But I will say that giving everyone crazy mobility seems cool but is actually a step backward because it means defensive advantages go to shit and it removes the finesse of well calculated drops when people were relying on defenses over map control at transitionary periods
take ZvZ in BW as an example
static defenses are weak because zerglings shit on both sunken colonies and hydralisks (which also suck against mutas). You're left with mostly zerglings and mutalisks i.e highly mobile units with no defensive advantage
everyone fucking hates that matchup
it's proven that skill counts but it's it's subtle not particularly fun to watch games are short and often are over in one fell swoop
if you fuck up in a minor way it can be an auto lose
it's a lot more like sc2
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On August 06 2016 01:44 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 01:42 Scip wrote:
Also correct me if Im wrong but buildings seem to die a lot faster in BW than in sc2, that is a huge reason as well (case in point: PvT in sc2 works the way it does because you can bop a nexus in 4 seconds) Your post just contradicted itself scip But I will say that giving everyone crazy mobility seems cool but is actually a step backward because it means defensive advantages go to shit and it removes the finesse of well calculated drops when people were relying on defenses over map control at transitionary periods
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last I watched the way PvT works is the terran has 2 medivacs with marines and marauders and fucks the toss in the ass with it
I mean protoss deathballs but note how bad protoss are at killing buildings it's actually the perfect example
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You could do that in brood war with 14 marines and 2 medics and 2 dropships however it would be a huge investment as dropships are only good for that purpose, and they would all die in 1 storm if you fucked up
also bio sucks against protoss because once they get psi storm or reavers you get fucked by splash
but in sc2 super mobile armies of weak infantry don't really give a shit about psi storm colossus work but you have vikings then
The marauder in general is a shit unit I don't really know what blizzard were thinking.
It's a catchall versatile unit with the stupid concussive shells which leads to stupid LoL esque kiting
it promotes the deathball even futher because you can't just run a bunch of zealots and fuck them up because of the slowing shit
melee units should be weak because they have to attack into a defensive position not because some cunt hard designed a unit that makes them useless if someone micros
They closest equivalent would be the dragoon, which fits the protoss type of unit (high health, middle mobility, takes up large space so isn't easy to sneak around or drop)
it doesn't fit the terran type at all
roaches don't fit the zerg type either and look how much everyone hates those
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Don't bother trying to logic SC2 units. I doubt Blizzard even knew wtf they were doing with that game.
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I liked their patches but felt like the core design strayed away from
Zerg: High speed, High damage, Low hp, Low range
Terran: Low speed, Middle damage, Middle hp, High Range
Protoss: Middle speed, Low damage, High hp, Middle range
They fixed any balance issues between early units later in the game with upgrades
zergling speed/crack
hydra speed/range
marine stim, vulture/tank upgrades
zealot leg speed, dragoon range
They just copied the old design then added a bunch of generic units and gave everything new a shitload of mobility
like they realized they fucked up when they decided to add the lurker back and realized it was fucking useless because of how much stupid shit they did with mobility
terran can just have infinite drops so he doesn't care
they gave reavers (colossus) the same range but also made them really mobile and stalkers blink
they also added terrible spells like forcefield which was so dumb that they specifically added a unit to make it useless
(sorta like the corsair and the valkryie in BW which sorta worked out just like the ravagers worked out )
I think the coolest ideas they had were like creep spreading and warp ins but it would be cooler if taking space mattered because it was easy to defend thanks to spells or defensive units (spider mines, psi storm, reavers, lurkers, tanks, dark swarm)
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EPT
