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On August 17 2014 00:26 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Not at alll my impression. He joined up with Illidan because the other choice was to be executed by fuking FOR 'UMANITY.
My impression too. Alliance don't give a shit and would rather just kill the BE as cannon fodder. He leaves to find a place for the BE then we go and kill him because he's gone mad? I get blizzards writing is absolutely awful but that was just plain terrible. Not to mention we don't experience any of it, all we have is the impression of him from TFT which is of a good guy being shafted by his allies.
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On August 17 2014 00:26 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Not at alll my impression. He joined up with Illidan because the other choice was to be executed by fuking FOR 'UMANITY.
He was sort of in a bind, yes, and made the necessary choices to survive. But afterwards he aligned himself with demons (technically the ones who destroyed his home land) and brought more pain to his people by journeying into Outland then the Frozen Throne. I feel it was pretty clear that he was kind of crazy at that point. Also there was this "thirst for magic" thing that compelled him into this tragic path.
For example, he did make an explicit choice to free Illidan by seizing Maiv's cage in Outland. Illidan was an agent of the Burning Legion (whether by choice or not). Kael'thas did not need to help him.
Then again maybe I am just overanalyzing this, since this is just Blizzard's (crappy) writing.
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Kael'Thas was following Vashj when they freed Illidan, and Illidan was talking about making a place for themselves by housting demons from the Burning Legion, which is basically the end of the Human campaign.
They only became "aligned" with demons when Kil'Jaeden tracked Illidan down right after he conquered Outland and made him work for them again ('cause you know otherwise he'd die; Illidan pretty much whimpered and fell to his knees as soon as Kil'Jaeden appeared, in the "cinematic").
I really hate what Blizzard made of Illidan from the start though so that doesn't help.
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I think nothing will beat how poorly Diablo 3 was written. They really need to spend some of that wow money on hiring some decent writers instead of whoever they have in charge now.
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Disclaimer: never played WoW. I am writing this strictly on my understanding of ROC and TFT.
I feel Kael'thas might have been compelled to help Vashj and Illidan because they saved him once. But as soon as he learned about Illidan's plans (and how Illidan was associated with the Burning Legion) he could have just folded. But no, he brought his people to Outland... because you know, thirst for magic.
It's not even explicitly said how Illidan planned to fulfill his promise for Kael on "more magic" once he conquered Outland. I always felt that Illidan simply sweettalked Kael into following him (Illidan said something like blah blah I know your pain blah blah I also thirst for magic blah blah).
Also Kael'thas may have had other options. For example it was clear that he made a good impression for Tyrande and Tyrande was fairly liberal/open minded about the other races. It's very possible that she would have helped him. Also there is Jaina.
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On August 15 2014 22:31 ComaDose wrote:everyone coming back sunday bailed so i'm not going to Algonquin anymore  hope your doge feels better Tolkien. Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 12:03 OhTwoMise wrote:On August 15 2014 05:58 Dandel Ion wrote:
y'all should just play gw1 again, the most superior mmo I would posit that it's not an MMO. The gameplay is much closer to League/DotA and it lacks most of the defining features of MMOs. I'd almost say it was mismarketed, but I think Arena.net actually came out ahead (financially) on the poor labeling. i don't follow at all, its a multiplier online role playing game. you level up characters and collect better items then battle other characters in the arena. The PvE was actually pretty fun. I can see why you would say if all you do is arena (and you had max gear for all max level classes) then each match is like a league game but that's still not the premise and it takes a while to get there.
Most of that just isn't true. You can create PvP-only characters with max levels and gear as soon as you have an account. And if you go back to the era around and immediately following (for maybe a year or two) the beta, that WAS the premise. The game was originally marketed as a "competetive online RPG", with the PvE campaign essentially being a bloated tutorial that eventually dumped you into the "real" game.
Then at some point there was a pretty clear shift somewhere in upper management that steered the game in the MMO direction. Obviously I don't know what would have happened if Arena.net had stuck with their original vision, but as I said, I think they probably made more money with this paradigm shift than if they'd done it the other way 'round. I think that if you want to classify the game as an MMO, it makes at best a samey, mediocre one, whereas if you want to classify it as an 8v8 (and to a lesser extent, 4v4) arena game, it was groundbreaking on multiple fronts.
For quite awhile I thought that it was good enough that it would have done well as an esport if it had been released after the boom. I've since revised my opinion. The gameplay was solid enough, but the problem is it's not remotely observable, which would keep both viewers and sponsors--and thus money--away.
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On August 17 2014 00:53 Sufficiency wrote:
Disclaimer: never played WoW. I am writing this strictly on my understanding of ROC and TFT.
I feel Kael'thas might have been compelled to help Vashj and Illidan because they saved him once. But as soon as he learned about Illidan's plans (and how Illidan was associated with the Burning Legion) he could have just folded. But no, he brought his people to Outland... because you know, thirst for magic.
It's not even explicitly said how Illidan planned to fulfill his promise for Kael on "more magic" once he conquered Outland. I always felt that Illidan simply sweettalked Kael into following him (Illidan said something like blah blah I know your pain blah blah I also thirst for magic blah blah).
Also Kael'thas may have had other options. For example it was clear that he made a good impression for Tyrande and Tyrande was fairly liberal/open minded about the other races. It's very possible that she would have helped him. Also there is Jaina.
Understanding of WoW is irrelevant to this discussion because the complaint was 'suddenly evil' Kael, aka his WoW introduction as evil.
I don't get that it was so sudden though. They may have pushed him further into that spectrum than you'd expect, but he was clearly going to be 'enemy of the state' status after TFT, and I didn't find it some ridiculous stretch that time spent isolated in Outlands with Illidan and Vashj, who have 'manipulated'(or you know, just asked) him into doing some shit before, pushed him into full blown evil villain territory.
Zombie Kael on the other hand...
Edit: I definitely remember leveling up and farming for shti(skills even? foggy)in GW1 in the beta and just after release. I don't know when they released a 'start at max' option but it definitely wasn't right away.
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This WoW lore talk makes me want to play WC3 again just for the story.
Also, while I thought the Warlords trailer was cool, I literally cannot stand Garrosh. Was desperately hoping they showed more characters during WC3 besides Grom/Guldan/Garrosh.
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On August 17 2014 01:06 OhTwoMise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 22:31 ComaDose wrote:everyone coming back sunday bailed so i'm not going to Algonquin anymore hope your doge feels better Tolkien. On August 15 2014 12:03 OhTwoMise wrote:On August 15 2014 05:58 Dandel Ion wrote:
y'all should just play gw1 again, the most superior mmo I would posit that it's not an MMO. The gameplay is much closer to League/DotA and it lacks most of the defining features of MMOs. I'd almost say it was mismarketed, but I think Arena.net actually came out ahead (financially) on the poor labeling. i don't follow at all, its a multiplier online role playing game. you level up characters and collect better items then battle other characters in the arena. The PvE was actually pretty fun. I can see why you would say if all you do is arena (and you had max gear for all max level classes) then each match is like a league game but that's still not the premise and it takes a while to get there. Most of that just isn't true. You can create PvP-only characters with max levels and gear as soon as you have an account. And if you go back to the era around and immediately following (for maybe a year or two) the beta, that WAS the premise. The game was originally marketed as a "competetive online RPG", with the PvE campaign essentially being a bloated tutorial that eventually dumped you into the "real" game. Then at some point there was a pretty clear shift somewhere in upper management that steered the game in the MMO direction. Obviously I don't know what would have happened if Arena.net had stuck with their original vision, but as I said, I think they probably made more money with this paradigm shift than if they'd done it the other way 'round. I think that if you want to classify the game as an MMO, it makes at best a samey, mediocre one, whereas if you want to classify it as an 8v8 (and to a lesser extent, 4v4) arena game, it was groundbreaking on multiple fronts. For quite awhile I thought that it was good enough that it would have done well as an esport if it had been released after the boom. I've since revised my opinion. The gameplay was solid enough, but the problem is it's not remotely observable, which would keep both viewers and sponsors--and thus money--away.
good point
On August 16 2014 19:58 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 13:01 ComaDose wrote:On August 16 2014 11:23 Alaric wrote:
x_x
Went around 7:30 PM to meet the girl. Back to the car around 2 hours later and joking around. Start real conversation instead of saying goodbye and ends up at 3 AM dropping her home since subway closed before heading home myself.
I mean, it was certainly entertaining and interesting. But I haven't eaten since noon and I'm fucking tired, I could have went to bed like 3 hours ago. Welp. has anyone told you to eat more. people dont talk to people for 3hrs past midnight unless they enjoy it I enjoyed it! My belly didn't. I guess it is a different person than me then. Plus it's not like I didn't want to eat. On the other hand looks like people sure enjoyed drinking here.
i ment her you silly frenchy aint you supposed to be romantic
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On August 17 2014 01:28 sung_moon wrote:
This WoW lore talk makes me want to play WC3 again just for the story.
It might be my favorite single player experience ever(from a complete perspective; gameplay, storytelling, cinematics, etc). I'd have to sit and think about it for a bit, discussing the lore right now gives it a sort of in the moment bias, but even if I thought about a few that were better it would certainly stay very high on the list.
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On August 16 2014 23:04 Shelke14 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 18:36 Frudgey wrote:On August 16 2014 18:08 ComaDose wrote:
dat Frudgey disclaimer tho jk Man I swear one of these days I'm just going to snap and break the image that I'm just the most passive and timid Canadian ever haha! I'd make Roffles look tame by comparison and everyone knows that Roffles was a beast that couldn't be tamed! I'm gonna tame you by shutting down your account for 30 days..... Ya bitch
You didn't answer me if sometime from 8-11 Mountain time works for you tomorrow. You can't tame fellow Canadians if we don't set a time in which the taming occurs.
I should also probably add you on Battle.net so that you can whup me. Just know that if some fool named Frudgey tries to add you on Battle.Net that guy is me.
ALSO OH MY GOODNESS IS THAT HEROES OF MIGHT AND MAGIC 7 THAT I SEE?
THIS DAY IS GOING TO BE A GREAT DAY.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
I can't remember exactly but isn't the blood elves thirst for magic a massive issue, like they get really messed up if they don't actually sate it.
If after being ditched by the alliance the offer to seemingly save his people since they seemed condemned to slowly die of the thirst (Not like garithos' alliance was going to be any help there) Kael'Thas was likely stuck between a rock and a hard place in that regard. Still didn't like the suddenly "We burning legion now" though.
Illadin's group wasn't aligned with the legion after TFT though, the Fel "Ganked the shit out of me" Reaver is there because Kil'Jaeden wants to wreck Illadin's shit so at some point Illadin re-betrayed the legion but Kael was still "We actually legion now"
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Until the End of Burning Crusade(they got thar Sunwell back!) Yes blood elves without a magical source would eventually go insane/decay into wasted withered beings.
Kael'thas did kinda betray the entire alliance over one bad General so.. nice guy? Maybe. Smart? Not really..
I admit biased due to having so much damn trouble with that stupid Tower Defense level to get to outland. That thing just urked me for ages.
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On August 17 2014 02:01 Fusilero wrote:
I can't remember exactly but isn't the blood elves thirst for magic a massive issue, like they get really messed up if they don't actually sate it.
If after being ditched by the alliance the offer to seemingly save his people since they seemed condemned to slowly die of the thirst (Not like garithos' alliance was going to be any help there) Kael'Thas was likely stuck between a rock and a hard place in that regard. Still didn't like the suddenly "We burning legion now" though.
Illadin's group wasn't aligned with the legion after TFT though, the Fel "Ganked the shit out of me" Reaver is there because Kil'Jaeden wants to wreck Illadin's shit so at some point Illadin re-betrayed the legion but Kael was still "We actually legion now"
Illidan didn't 're-betray' the Legion, he just failed to carry out Kil'jaeden's orders for him(destroy the Frozen Throne), and so Doomwalker assaults Karabor trying to break in.
I still don't see what you guys are describing as a stretch or sudden turn of character either. Illidan(whether you like this writing or not) went crazy post Arthas encounter, and is literally holed up in BT fearing KJ's wrath. Kael joined that crew because he was promised a source of magic, and at some point it became clear to him that the Burning Legion, not Illidan, could deliver that to him, so he swapped sides(something that isn't some immense leap of character).
I think there were far better ways of fitting in the exact same raid instances in TBC without doing Zombie Kael, but this 'evil Kael' that is a member of the Burning Legion argument is something I just never really had a problem with.
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HoMM6 was very mediocre though. Not confident about this.
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On August 17 2014 02:41 Sufficiency wrote:
HoMM6 was very mediocre though. Not confident about this.
HoMM6 was fantastic in my opinion. That being said, I really enjoyed Heroes 5 as well so I can see why you might not be inclined to agree with me!
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We always called him Karl thas
Just some average Joe gettin' by in his magical nether fortress
Also Fel Reaver had nothing on Devilsaurs
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lmfao really did something special imo making trains instead of riding them
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I actually legit own HoMM6, won it at a tournament once, but damn I want my 2 hours of life back after trying it out. The combat and everything about it was so terribly boring.
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Yes HoMM6 is a primr example as to why RNG contributes to replayability.
Don't get me wrong, HoMM6 had a lot of things right. But due to the lack of RNG based hero progression, you really only need to play the map once with the most optimal stratrgy. After that you are done.
As far as combat is concerned, HoMM6 is fairly good.
EDIT: now that I am back home in front of my computer, let me elaborate on what I feel about this game.
First of all, HoMM6 was (IMO) an abject failure. In terms of popularity, the game never went really far. There is also not a very strong community behind it (I couldn't even find the Blood path skills for the new Dungeon heroes on the wiki, it's ridiculous).
Then there was the issue with grinding Dynasty weapons, especially with how broken some of them are.
The nail on the coffin was how unreplayable it is. There are only so many campaign maps (i.e. not a lot); the skirmish maps are very few and very boring. Without the RNG-based hero development (which was a blessing on paper but really bad in practice) there really wasn't much you could do after beating the map on hard mode.
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EPT
