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On October 07 2015 00:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 00:47 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2015 22:58 Big J wrote:On October 06 2015 21:13 WaylanderSC2_ wrote:On October 06 2015 20:50 Big J wrote:On October 06 2015 20:43 Thrillz wrote:On October 06 2015 20:40 robson1 wrote:On October 06 2015 20:39 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On October 06 2015 20:38 atrox_ wrote:On October 06 2015 20:37 yip.man wrote:
Cancer mech so disgusting I'd personally rather watch a game like that as opposed to say BL infestor or blink allins Mech on Terraform and BL/Infestor feel very very similar to me. BL/Infestor was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse. Just thank the lord everyday that this is over. It worked on every map. Against every race guys. It was objectively worse, no discussion. BL/Infestor is still the worst, worse than mechvz, blink allins, swarmhosts, skytoss, etc. More OP, was the goal in every game regardless of matchup. Numbers would suggest otherwise, but whatever. Who cares about numbers. Are you trolling? During the peak of BL Infestor, Zerg had the highest winning record for ELEVEN STRAIGHT MONTHS. A record that is still unmatched to this day. Remember foriegn players like Johnnyreccor, Goswser, and Vortix? Well, they were more than capable of beating Korean Terrans with broodlord/infestor. Zerg players ELO ratings SKYROCKETED in the months following the dawn of the brood lord infestor era (Queen range buff). It was the darkest time in SC2, there literally wasn't a counter to the playstyle and Zergs won the majority of premier tournaments for nearly a year. What do numbers say about the imbalance of mech in TvZ? That Terran has a 43% winrate against Zerg in proleague? That overall, Terran had a losing record against Zerg in August and September: winrates of 47.8% and 48.17% respectively? That Terran has won less than half as many premier tournaments as Zerg has in 2015? Please, enlighten me with your "numbers." Look at 2013-2014 blink era. Protoss won more tournaments and a higher percentage of tournaments than zerg in their 2012-13 bl/infestor era. In the 9month between Dear winning GSL and Pigbaby winning WCS AM Protoss won 17 of 24 tournaments (liquipedia count plus blizzcon 2013 and WCS S3 Global 2013 finals which aren't listed) including every WCS tournament except for one WCS AM, Blizzcon, and that superstacked 100k IEM WC. It was only repaired with a variety of patches from tons of MsC nerfs, hydralisk buff, and multiple WM buffs that basically more than doubled the damage of the mine against protoss. In basically whatever time frame you take for the BL/Infestor (usually May12-Feb13 but it's not like the playstyle wasn't known before the queen patch, nor that the queen patch in May immidiatly made zerg win everything, MC vs Seed GSL finals says hello), zerg didn't even make 50% tournament wins. In fact, as imbalanced as it was in late 2012 and early 2013, early 2012 was extremely terran dominated and mid-late 2012 was the best era protoss ever had in Wings of Liberty. Tournamentwise 2012 was the most balanced year WoL ever had, though it was obviously split between terran domination early and Zerg domination late with a very high amount of protoss wins too. What this has to do with Mech? Well nothing. You may want to reread what I responded to, because that post explicitely named BL/Infestor worse than the blink era. Where I stepped in and said that his statement is wrong numberswise. The rest of the story is told. Metrics are used to fit narratives. I could argue blink era was much better, as in all of the tournaments you mentioned, the Ro4 was never full P, when it was full Z or close to full Z so many times in BLi and GomTvT. Also a lot more finals were non-mirror when compared to other periods of dominance. See what I did there? Well, I did not much. Domination is domination, as far as I can tell. I don't really know why these ideas come back now, tho, as the game has arguably never been as fair as it is today. No you can't. Because you present no metric. I presented numbers, you don't. Why? I don't know, maybe because the numbers to your arugments don't exist?! For example in BL/Inf we had 7 ZvZ finals, in the blink era it was 6 PvP finals. That's your "a lot more" metric that I have researched for you now. Do the others yourself and you may have a narrative. But don't talk out of your ass with nothing in your hands.
That's not my argument and you know that, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to do this, but of course numbers to the argument exist. Let's use a GSL metric: best competition was the GSL, and protoss was clearly less dominant in terms of GSL Ro4s than zerg or terran ever was. Because it's the best competition, it's clearly the most representative of the state of the game, and so protoss was less dominant over the two other races because soO made a bunch of finals! The argument makes logical sense. It's pointless though. Which was my point.
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On October 07 2015 03:33 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 00:59 Big J wrote:On October 07 2015 00:47 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2015 22:58 Big J wrote:On October 06 2015 21:13 WaylanderSC2_ wrote:On October 06 2015 20:50 Big J wrote:On October 06 2015 20:43 Thrillz wrote:On October 06 2015 20:40 robson1 wrote:On October 06 2015 20:39 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On October 06 2015 20:38 atrox_ wrote:
[quote]
I'd personally rather watch a game like that as opposed to say BL infestor or blink allins Mech on Terraform and BL/Infestor feel very very similar to me. BL/Infestor was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse. Just thank the lord everyday that this is over. It worked on every map. Against every race guys. It was objectively worse, no discussion. BL/Infestor is still the worst, worse than mechvz, blink allins, swarmhosts, skytoss, etc. More OP, was the goal in every game regardless of matchup. Numbers would suggest otherwise, but whatever. Who cares about numbers. Are you trolling? During the peak of BL Infestor, Zerg had the highest winning record for ELEVEN STRAIGHT MONTHS. A record that is still unmatched to this day. Remember foriegn players like Johnnyreccor, Goswser, and Vortix? Well, they were more than capable of beating Korean Terrans with broodlord/infestor. Zerg players ELO ratings SKYROCKETED in the months following the dawn of the brood lord infestor era (Queen range buff). It was the darkest time in SC2, there literally wasn't a counter to the playstyle and Zergs won the majority of premier tournaments for nearly a year. What do numbers say about the imbalance of mech in TvZ? That Terran has a 43% winrate against Zerg in proleague? That overall, Terran had a losing record against Zerg in August and September: winrates of 47.8% and 48.17% respectively? That Terran has won less than half as many premier tournaments as Zerg has in 2015? Please, enlighten me with your "numbers." Look at 2013-2014 blink era. Protoss won more tournaments and a higher percentage of tournaments than zerg in their 2012-13 bl/infestor era. In the 9month between Dear winning GSL and Pigbaby winning WCS AM Protoss won 17 of 24 tournaments (liquipedia count plus blizzcon 2013 and WCS S3 Global 2013 finals which aren't listed) including every WCS tournament except for one WCS AM, Blizzcon, and that superstacked 100k IEM WC. It was only repaired with a variety of patches from tons of MsC nerfs, hydralisk buff, and multiple WM buffs that basically more than doubled the damage of the mine against protoss. In basically whatever time frame you take for the BL/Infestor (usually May12-Feb13 but it's not like the playstyle wasn't known before the queen patch, nor that the queen patch in May immidiatly made zerg win everything, MC vs Seed GSL finals says hello), zerg didn't even make 50% tournament wins. In fact, as imbalanced as it was in late 2012 and early 2013, early 2012 was extremely terran dominated and mid-late 2012 was the best era protoss ever had in Wings of Liberty. Tournamentwise 2012 was the most balanced year WoL ever had, though it was obviously split between terran domination early and Zerg domination late with a very high amount of protoss wins too. What this has to do with Mech? Well nothing. You may want to reread what I responded to, because that post explicitely named BL/Infestor worse than the blink era. Where I stepped in and said that his statement is wrong numberswise. The rest of the story is told. Metrics are used to fit narratives. I could argue blink era was much better, as in all of the tournaments you mentioned, the Ro4 was never full P, when it was full Z or close to full Z so many times in BLi and GomTvT. Also a lot more finals were non-mirror when compared to other periods of dominance. See what I did there? Well, I did not much. Domination is domination, as far as I can tell. I don't really know why these ideas come back now, tho, as the game has arguably never been as fair as it is today. No you can't. Because you present no metric. I presented numbers, you don't. Why? I don't know, maybe because the numbers to your arugments don't exist?! For example in BL/Inf we had 7 ZvZ finals, in the blink era it was 6 PvP finals. That's your "a lot more" metric that I have researched for you now. Do the others yourself and you may have a narrative. But don't talk out of your ass with nothing in your hands. That's not my argument and you know that, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to do this, but of course numbers to the argument exist. Let's use a GSL metric: best competition was the GSL, and protoss was clearly less dominant in terms of GSL Ro4s than zerg or terran ever was. Because it's the best competition, it's clearly the most representative of the state of the game, and so protoss was less dominant over the two other races because soO made a bunch of finals! The argument makes logical sense. It's pointless though. Which was my point.
So again, you give no numbers here. If you don't want to arugment it please don't half-arse it stating something that I have to double-check to see if you even did your homework. Just don't argue it to begin with then and just say that you think the discussion is pointless. Which I can partly agree with, but I'm really fed up with this story of 200% winrate for 25years BL/Infestor. And every month that lies in between us and this era someone adds another 5% and another 3months to his made up notion of how the end of WoL looked like. It's getting ridiculous.
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Canada8159 Posts
I AM OK WITH FANTASY GOING THROUGH
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On October 07 2015 03:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 03:33 Nebuchad wrote:On October 07 2015 00:59 Big J wrote:On October 07 2015 00:47 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2015 22:58 Big J wrote:On October 06 2015 21:13 WaylanderSC2_ wrote:On October 06 2015 20:50 Big J wrote:On October 06 2015 20:43 Thrillz wrote:On October 06 2015 20:40 robson1 wrote:On October 06 2015 20:39 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
[quote]
Mech on Terraform and BL/Infestor feel very very similar to me. BL/Infestor was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse. Just thank the lord everyday that this is over. It worked on every map. Against every race guys. It was objectively worse, no discussion. BL/Infestor is still the worst, worse than mechvz, blink allins, swarmhosts, skytoss, etc. More OP, was the goal in every game regardless of matchup. Numbers would suggest otherwise, but whatever. Who cares about numbers. Are you trolling? During the peak of BL Infestor, Zerg had the highest winning record for ELEVEN STRAIGHT MONTHS. A record that is still unmatched to this day. Remember foriegn players like Johnnyreccor, Goswser, and Vortix? Well, they were more than capable of beating Korean Terrans with broodlord/infestor. Zerg players ELO ratings SKYROCKETED in the months following the dawn of the brood lord infestor era (Queen range buff). It was the darkest time in SC2, there literally wasn't a counter to the playstyle and Zergs won the majority of premier tournaments for nearly a year. What do numbers say about the imbalance of mech in TvZ? That Terran has a 43% winrate against Zerg in proleague? That overall, Terran had a losing record against Zerg in August and September: winrates of 47.8% and 48.17% respectively? That Terran has won less than half as many premier tournaments as Zerg has in 2015? Please, enlighten me with your "numbers." Look at 2013-2014 blink era. Protoss won more tournaments and a higher percentage of tournaments than zerg in their 2012-13 bl/infestor era. In the 9month between Dear winning GSL and Pigbaby winning WCS AM Protoss won 17 of 24 tournaments (liquipedia count plus blizzcon 2013 and WCS S3 Global 2013 finals which aren't listed) including every WCS tournament except for one WCS AM, Blizzcon, and that superstacked 100k IEM WC. It was only repaired with a variety of patches from tons of MsC nerfs, hydralisk buff, and multiple WM buffs that basically more than doubled the damage of the mine against protoss. In basically whatever time frame you take for the BL/Infestor (usually May12-Feb13 but it's not like the playstyle wasn't known before the queen patch, nor that the queen patch in May immidiatly made zerg win everything, MC vs Seed GSL finals says hello), zerg didn't even make 50% tournament wins. In fact, as imbalanced as it was in late 2012 and early 2013, early 2012 was extremely terran dominated and mid-late 2012 was the best era protoss ever had in Wings of Liberty. Tournamentwise 2012 was the most balanced year WoL ever had, though it was obviously split between terran domination early and Zerg domination late with a very high amount of protoss wins too. What this has to do with Mech? Well nothing. You may want to reread what I responded to, because that post explicitely named BL/Infestor worse than the blink era. Where I stepped in and said that his statement is wrong numberswise. The rest of the story is told. Metrics are used to fit narratives. I could argue blink era was much better, as in all of the tournaments you mentioned, the Ro4 was never full P, when it was full Z or close to full Z so many times in BLi and GomTvT. Also a lot more finals were non-mirror when compared to other periods of dominance. See what I did there? Well, I did not much. Domination is domination, as far as I can tell. I don't really know why these ideas come back now, tho, as the game has arguably never been as fair as it is today. No you can't. Because you present no metric. I presented numbers, you don't. Why? I don't know, maybe because the numbers to your arugments don't exist?! For example in BL/Inf we had 7 ZvZ finals, in the blink era it was 6 PvP finals. That's your "a lot more" metric that I have researched for you now. Do the others yourself and you may have a narrative. But don't talk out of your ass with nothing in your hands. That's not my argument and you know that, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to do this, but of course numbers to the argument exist. Let's use a GSL metric: best competition was the GSL, and protoss was clearly less dominant in terms of GSL Ro4s than zerg or terran ever was. Because it's the best competition, it's clearly the most representative of the state of the game, and so protoss was less dominant over the two other races because soO made a bunch of finals! The argument makes logical sense. It's pointless though. Which was my point. So again, you give no numbers here. If you don't want to arugment it please don't half-arse it stating something that I have to double-check to see if you even did your homework. Just don't argue it to begin with then and just say that you think the discussion is pointless. Which I can partly agree with, but I'm really fed up with this story of 200% winrate for 25years BL/Infestor. And every month that lies in between us and this era someone adds another 5% and another 3months to his made up notion of how the end of WoL looked like. It's getting ridiculous.
In most of the metrics that matter to me, GomTvT was much worse than GomZvZ. Now the community perceives GomZvZ as worse because of a few things that aren't related to maths;
- Games are more repetitive (or perceived as such) than in other periods.
- Terran is losing (and has been losing for the longest at that point).
- The notion that Korean terrans are just better than other players and so they'll just win no matter what is shattered.
- The domination is fairly large (both in terms of player losing vs player and in terms of tournament playoffs numbers).
- There is no fight against the notion that the game is bad, everyone pretty much accepts the idea, so the idea goes around.
- Blizzard isn't doing anything
You can choose to ignore any of the above. I do. But you can't really change it.
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How did we go from Tiebreaker WCS Global Finals into BL Infestor discussion?
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On October 06 2015 22:28 WaylanderSC2_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2015 22:11 Ej_ wrote:On October 06 2015 21:13 WaylanderSC2_ wrote:On October 06 2015 20:50 Big J wrote:On October 06 2015 20:43 Thrillz wrote:On October 06 2015 20:40 robson1 wrote:On October 06 2015 20:39 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On October 06 2015 20:38 atrox_ wrote:On October 06 2015 20:37 yip.man wrote:
Cancer mech so disgusting I'd personally rather watch a game like that as opposed to say BL infestor or blink allins Mech on Terraform and BL/Infestor feel very very similar to me. BL/Infestor was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse. Just thank the lord everyday that this is over. It worked on every map. Against every race guys. It was objectively worse, no discussion. BL/Infestor is still the worst, worse than mechvz, blink allins, swarmhosts, skytoss, etc. More OP, was the goal in every game regardless of matchup. Numbers would suggest otherwise, but whatever. Who cares about numbers. Are you trolling? During the peak of BL Infestor, Zerg had the highest winning record for ELEVEN STRAIGHT MONTHS. A record that is still unmatched to this day. Remember foriegn players like Johnnyreccor, Goswser, and Vortix? Well, they were more than capable of beating Korean Terrans with broodlord/infestor. Zerg players ELO ratings SKYROCKETED in the months following the dawn of the brood lord infestor era (Queen range buff). It was the darkest time in SC2, there literally wasn't a counter to the playstyle and Zergs won the majority of premier tournaments for nearly a year. What do numbers say about the imbalance of mech in TvZ? That Terran has a 43% winrate against Zerg in proleague? That overall, Terran had a losing record against Zerg in August and September: winrates of 47.8% and 48.17% respectively? That Terran has won less than half as many premier tournaments as Zerg has in 2015? Please, enlighten me with your "numbers." tying Vortix's success to BL/infestor is very inaccurate kinda bummed out about HyuN losing, but lolmaps I guess http://aligulac.com/players/52-VortiX/note rating after 1.4.3 patch. Earnings before 1.4.3 patch: 5,150 euro Earnings between 1.4.3 patch and HOTS release (period of 10 months): 44,750 euro Earnings between Hots and December 2014 retirement (period of 20 months): 53,881 euro He is not a patch zerg in the sense of many that thrived during BL/Infestor, as he experienced moderate success in HOTS, albeit at a far lower rate than in Wings of Liberty, but your tying Vortix's success to BL/infestor is very inaccurate assertion is simply untrue. The patch is responsible for his initial success and nearly 45% of his winnings.
So huk is a patch protoss, thorzain a patch terran, foreigner x is a patch x since they obviously earned more money a few years ago than they do now
Anyone who watched Vortix play in HOTS knows his skill was real and not dependant on a patch.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On October 07 2015 05:58 WrathSCII wrote:
How did we go from Tiebreaker WCS Global Finals into BL Infestor discussion?
Mech is considered imbalanced, people aren't happy with just calling it imbalanced - it always needs to be superlative. The most imbalanced, the worst period in the game. Yada, yada, quickly derailed.
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On October 07 2015 06:02 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2015 22:28 WaylanderSC2_ wrote:On October 06 2015 22:11 Ej_ wrote:On October 06 2015 21:13 WaylanderSC2_ wrote:On October 06 2015 20:50 Big J wrote:On October 06 2015 20:43 Thrillz wrote:On October 06 2015 20:40 robson1 wrote:On October 06 2015 20:39 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On October 06 2015 20:38 atrox_ wrote:On October 06 2015 20:37 yip.man wrote:
Cancer mech so disgusting I'd personally rather watch a game like that as opposed to say BL infestor or blink allins Mech on Terraform and BL/Infestor feel very very similar to me. BL/Infestor was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse. Just thank the lord everyday that this is over. It worked on every map. Against every race guys. It was objectively worse, no discussion. BL/Infestor is still the worst, worse than mechvz, blink allins, swarmhosts, skytoss, etc. More OP, was the goal in every game regardless of matchup. Numbers would suggest otherwise, but whatever. Who cares about numbers. Are you trolling? During the peak of BL Infestor, Zerg had the highest winning record for ELEVEN STRAIGHT MONTHS. A record that is still unmatched to this day. Remember foriegn players like Johnnyreccor, Goswser, and Vortix? Well, they were more than capable of beating Korean Terrans with broodlord/infestor. Zerg players ELO ratings SKYROCKETED in the months following the dawn of the brood lord infestor era (Queen range buff). It was the darkest time in SC2, there literally wasn't a counter to the playstyle and Zergs won the majority of premier tournaments for nearly a year. What do numbers say about the imbalance of mech in TvZ? That Terran has a 43% winrate against Zerg in proleague? That overall, Terran had a losing record against Zerg in August and September: winrates of 47.8% and 48.17% respectively? That Terran has won less than half as many premier tournaments as Zerg has in 2015? Please, enlighten me with your "numbers." tying Vortix's success to BL/infestor is very inaccurate kinda bummed out about HyuN losing, but lolmaps I guess http://aligulac.com/players/52-VortiX/note rating after 1.4.3 patch. Earnings before 1.4.3 patch: 5,150 euro Earnings between 1.4.3 patch and HOTS release (period of 10 months): 44,750 euro Earnings between Hots and December 2014 retirement (period of 20 months): 53,881 euro He is not a patch zerg in the sense of many that thrived during BL/Infestor, as he experienced moderate success in HOTS, albeit at a far lower rate than in Wings of Liberty, but your tying Vortix's success to BL/infestor is very inaccurate assertion is simply untrue. The patch is responsible for his initial success and nearly 45% of his winnings. So huk is a patch protoss, thorzain a patch terran, foreigner x is a patch x since they obviously earned more money a few years ago than they do now Anyone who watched Vortix play in HOTS knows his skill was real and not dependant on a patch.
this doesn't make any sense at all.
Vortix overstepped himself after hots release and huk and thorzain did basically nothing result wise after their era of success
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On October 07 2015 06:26 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 05:58 WrathSCII wrote:
How did we go from Tiebreaker WCS Global Finals into BL Infestor discussion? Mech is considered imbalanced, people aren't happy with just calling it imbalanced - it always needs to be superlative. The most imbalanced, the worst period in the game. Yada, yada, quickly derailed.
People who think the BL Infestor era to be the worst period in the game needs a reality check. Close position Metalopolis says hello!!!
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On October 07 2015 03:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 03:33 Nebuchad wrote:On October 07 2015 00:59 Big J wrote:On October 07 2015 00:47 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2015 22:58 Big J wrote:On October 06 2015 21:13 WaylanderSC2_ wrote:On October 06 2015 20:50 Big J wrote:On October 06 2015 20:43 Thrillz wrote:On October 06 2015 20:40 robson1 wrote:On October 06 2015 20:39 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
[quote]
Mech on Terraform and BL/Infestor feel very very similar to me. BL/Infestor was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse. Just thank the lord everyday that this is over. It worked on every map. Against every race guys. It was objectively worse, no discussion. BL/Infestor is still the worst, worse than mechvz, blink allins, swarmhosts, skytoss, etc. More OP, was the goal in every game regardless of matchup. Numbers would suggest otherwise, but whatever. Who cares about numbers. Are you trolling? During the peak of BL Infestor, Zerg had the highest winning record for ELEVEN STRAIGHT MONTHS. A record that is still unmatched to this day. Remember foriegn players like Johnnyreccor, Goswser, and Vortix? Well, they were more than capable of beating Korean Terrans with broodlord/infestor. Zerg players ELO ratings SKYROCKETED in the months following the dawn of the brood lord infestor era (Queen range buff). It was the darkest time in SC2, there literally wasn't a counter to the playstyle and Zergs won the majority of premier tournaments for nearly a year. What do numbers say about the imbalance of mech in TvZ? That Terran has a 43% winrate against Zerg in proleague? That overall, Terran had a losing record against Zerg in August and September: winrates of 47.8% and 48.17% respectively? That Terran has won less than half as many premier tournaments as Zerg has in 2015? Please, enlighten me with your "numbers." Look at 2013-2014 blink era. Protoss won more tournaments and a higher percentage of tournaments than zerg in their 2012-13 bl/infestor era. In the 9month between Dear winning GSL and Pigbaby winning WCS AM Protoss won 17 of 24 tournaments (liquipedia count plus blizzcon 2013 and WCS S3 Global 2013 finals which aren't listed) including every WCS tournament except for one WCS AM, Blizzcon, and that superstacked 100k IEM WC. It was only repaired with a variety of patches from tons of MsC nerfs, hydralisk buff, and multiple WM buffs that basically more than doubled the damage of the mine against protoss. In basically whatever time frame you take for the BL/Infestor (usually May12-Feb13 but it's not like the playstyle wasn't known before the queen patch, nor that the queen patch in May immidiatly made zerg win everything, MC vs Seed GSL finals says hello), zerg didn't even make 50% tournament wins. In fact, as imbalanced as it was in late 2012 and early 2013, early 2012 was extremely terran dominated and mid-late 2012 was the best era protoss ever had in Wings of Liberty. Tournamentwise 2012 was the most balanced year WoL ever had, though it was obviously split between terran domination early and Zerg domination late with a very high amount of protoss wins too. What this has to do with Mech? Well nothing. You may want to reread what I responded to, because that post explicitely named BL/Infestor worse than the blink era. Where I stepped in and said that his statement is wrong numberswise. The rest of the story is told. Metrics are used to fit narratives. I could argue blink era was much better, as in all of the tournaments you mentioned, the Ro4 was never full P, when it was full Z or close to full Z so many times in BLi and GomTvT. Also a lot more finals were non-mirror when compared to other periods of dominance. See what I did there? Well, I did not much. Domination is domination, as far as I can tell. I don't really know why these ideas come back now, tho, as the game has arguably never been as fair as it is today. No you can't. Because you present no metric. I presented numbers, you don't. Why? I don't know, maybe because the numbers to your arugments don't exist?! For example in BL/Inf we had 7 ZvZ finals, in the blink era it was 6 PvP finals. That's your "a lot more" metric that I have researched for you now. Do the others yourself and you may have a narrative. But don't talk out of your ass with nothing in your hands. That's not my argument and you know that, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to do this, but of course numbers to the argument exist. Let's use a GSL metric: best competition was the GSL, and protoss was clearly less dominant in terms of GSL Ro4s than zerg or terran ever was. Because it's the best competition, it's clearly the most representative of the state of the game, and so protoss was less dominant over the two other races because soO made a bunch of finals! The argument makes logical sense. It's pointless though. Which was my point. So again, you give no numbers here. If you don't want to arugment it please don't half-arse it stating something that I have to double-check to see if you even did your homework. Just don't argue it to begin with then and just say that you think the discussion is pointless. Which I can partly agree with, but I'm really fed up with this story of 200% winrate for 25years BL/Infestor. And every month that lies in between us and this era someone adds another 5% and another 3months to his made up notion of how the end of WoL looked like. It's getting ridiculous.
BL/Infestor doesn't need to be "mythicalized" to be the most scandalous era in SC2's collective memory. I still can't believe how many Zergs were persistently saying it was balanced (let alone interesting to watch, I've seen that too) at the time. We even had a KOREAN CRY IMBALANCE on a high level televized match for heavens sake !
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On October 07 2015 07:20 14CC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 06:26 Zealously wrote:On October 07 2015 05:58 WrathSCII wrote:
How did we go from Tiebreaker WCS Global Finals into BL Infestor discussion? Mech is considered imbalanced, people aren't happy with just calling it imbalanced - it always needs to be superlative. The most imbalanced, the worst period in the game. Yada, yada, quickly derailed. People who think the BL Infestor era to be the worst period in the game needs a reality check. Close position Metalopolis says hello!!!
game was way too volatile when metalopolis was around, new strategies emerged every week.
gglord winfestor was stuck in the loop for a year, and there was no metagame escape out of it. the closest things were "kill him before he gets there" timings as protoss and a byun opinion that it can be beaten with battlecruisers (that never really happened in tournaments though).
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Honestly mech is as imba as Broodlord-Infestor. With Broodlord-Infestor, we still have the opportunity to die while trying to kill Zerg before they reach that composition. With mech, good luck trying to break it.
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how did i miss that ? !!! $
FUCK YEAH FANTA !
I NEEDDDDD VODS.
Honestly mech is as imba as Broodlord-Infestor. With Broodlord-Infestor, we still have the opportunity to die while trying to kill Zerg before they reach that composition. With mech, good luck trying to break it.
Lol people are still balance debating when lots comes out in a month, you guys are just too much.
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On October 07 2015 06:02 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2015 22:28 WaylanderSC2_ wrote:On October 06 2015 22:11 Ej_ wrote:On October 06 2015 21:13 WaylanderSC2_ wrote:On October 06 2015 20:50 Big J wrote:On October 06 2015 20:43 Thrillz wrote:On October 06 2015 20:40 robson1 wrote:On October 06 2015 20:39 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On October 06 2015 20:38 atrox_ wrote:On October 06 2015 20:37 yip.man wrote:
Cancer mech so disgusting I'd personally rather watch a game like that as opposed to say BL infestor or blink allins Mech on Terraform and BL/Infestor feel very very similar to me. BL/Infestor was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse. Just thank the lord everyday that this is over. It worked on every map. Against every race guys. It was objectively worse, no discussion. BL/Infestor is still the worst, worse than mechvz, blink allins, swarmhosts, skytoss, etc. More OP, was the goal in every game regardless of matchup. Numbers would suggest otherwise, but whatever. Who cares about numbers. Are you trolling? During the peak of BL Infestor, Zerg had the highest winning record for ELEVEN STRAIGHT MONTHS. A record that is still unmatched to this day. Remember foriegn players like Johnnyreccor, Goswser, and Vortix? Well, they were more than capable of beating Korean Terrans with broodlord/infestor. Zerg players ELO ratings SKYROCKETED in the months following the dawn of the brood lord infestor era (Queen range buff). It was the darkest time in SC2, there literally wasn't a counter to the playstyle and Zergs won the majority of premier tournaments for nearly a year. What do numbers say about the imbalance of mech in TvZ? That Terran has a 43% winrate against Zerg in proleague? That overall, Terran had a losing record against Zerg in August and September: winrates of 47.8% and 48.17% respectively? That Terran has won less than half as many premier tournaments as Zerg has in 2015? Please, enlighten me with your "numbers." tying Vortix's success to BL/infestor is very inaccurate kinda bummed out about HyuN losing, but lolmaps I guess http://aligulac.com/players/52-VortiX/note rating after 1.4.3 patch. Earnings before 1.4.3 patch: 5,150 euro Earnings between 1.4.3 patch and HOTS release (period of 10 months): 44,750 euro Earnings between Hots and December 2014 retirement (period of 20 months): 53,881 euro He is not a patch zerg in the sense of many that thrived during BL/Infestor, as he experienced moderate success in HOTS, albeit at a far lower rate than in Wings of Liberty, but your tying Vortix's success to BL/infestor is very inaccurate assertion is simply untrue. The patch is responsible for his initial success and nearly 45% of his winnings. So huk is a patch protoss, thorzain a patch terran, foreigner x is a patch x since they obviously earned more money a few years ago than they do now Anyone who watched Vortix play in HOTS knows his skill was real and not dependant on a patch.
There was a patch that benefitted Vortix and other zergs right around the time he started doing well. The same cannot be said of HuK or Thorzain.
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On October 07 2015 07:40 Poopfeast 024 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 07:20 14CC wrote:On October 07 2015 06:26 Zealously wrote:On October 07 2015 05:58 WrathSCII wrote:
How did we go from Tiebreaker WCS Global Finals into BL Infestor discussion? Mech is considered imbalanced, people aren't happy with just calling it imbalanced - it always needs to be superlative. The most imbalanced, the worst period in the game. Yada, yada, quickly derailed. People who think the BL Infestor era to be the worst period in the game needs a reality check. Close position Metalopolis says hello!!! game was way too volatile when metalopolis was around, new strategies emerged every week. gglord winfestor was stuck in the loop for a year, and there was no metagame escape out of it. the closest things were "kill him before he gets there" timings as protoss and a byun opinion that it can be beaten with battlecruisers (that never really happened in tournaments though).
In the extremely lategame scenario Terran almost always beat Zerg. The problem was, it was near impossible to get there, because from the point that Zerg got BL/infestor they were insanely strong and it was hard for Terran to fight back at all let alone spare extra resources to build up. However, in the situations where Terran was allowed to build up, they almost never lost with BC/raven/Viking, ghosts optional.
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On October 07 2015 15:30 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 07:40 Poopfeast 024 wrote:On October 07 2015 07:20 14CC wrote:On October 07 2015 06:26 Zealously wrote:On October 07 2015 05:58 WrathSCII wrote:
How did we go from Tiebreaker WCS Global Finals into BL Infestor discussion? Mech is considered imbalanced, people aren't happy with just calling it imbalanced - it always needs to be superlative. The most imbalanced, the worst period in the game. Yada, yada, quickly derailed. People who think the BL Infestor era to be the worst period in the game needs a reality check. Close position Metalopolis says hello!!! game was way too volatile when metalopolis was around, new strategies emerged every week. gglord winfestor was stuck in the loop for a year, and there was no metagame escape out of it. the closest things were "kill him before he gets there" timings as protoss and a byun opinion that it can be beaten with battlecruisers (that never really happened in tournaments though). In the extremely lategame scenario Terran almost always beat Zerg. The problem was, it was near impossible to get there, because from the point that Zerg got BL/infestor they were insanely strong and it was hard for Terran to fight back at all let alone spare extra resources to build up. However, in the situations where Terran was allowed to build up, they almost never lost with BC/raven/Viking, ghosts optional.
that wasn't really helpful when zerg got an advantage into the lategame every single game. yes protoss also almost never lost vs zerg with 0 probes and 200 supply 3-3 carriers.
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On October 07 2015 03:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 03:33 Nebuchad wrote:On October 07 2015 00:59 Big J wrote:On October 07 2015 00:47 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2015 22:58 Big J wrote:On October 06 2015 21:13 WaylanderSC2_ wrote:On October 06 2015 20:50 Big J wrote:On October 06 2015 20:43 Thrillz wrote:On October 06 2015 20:40 robson1 wrote:On October 06 2015 20:39 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
[quote]
Mech on Terraform and BL/Infestor feel very very similar to me. BL/Infestor was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse. Just thank the lord everyday that this is over. It worked on every map. Against every race guys. It was objectively worse, no discussion. BL/Infestor is still the worst, worse than mechvz, blink allins, swarmhosts, skytoss, etc. More OP, was the goal in every game regardless of matchup. Numbers would suggest otherwise, but whatever. Who cares about numbers. Are you trolling? During the peak of BL Infestor, Zerg had the highest winning record for ELEVEN STRAIGHT MONTHS. A record that is still unmatched to this day. Remember foriegn players like Johnnyreccor, Goswser, and Vortix? Well, they were more than capable of beating Korean Terrans with broodlord/infestor. Zerg players ELO ratings SKYROCKETED in the months following the dawn of the brood lord infestor era (Queen range buff). It was the darkest time in SC2, there literally wasn't a counter to the playstyle and Zergs won the majority of premier tournaments for nearly a year. What do numbers say about the imbalance of mech in TvZ? That Terran has a 43% winrate against Zerg in proleague? That overall, Terran had a losing record against Zerg in August and September: winrates of 47.8% and 48.17% respectively? That Terran has won less than half as many premier tournaments as Zerg has in 2015? Please, enlighten me with your "numbers." Look at 2013-2014 blink era. Protoss won more tournaments and a higher percentage of tournaments than zerg in their 2012-13 bl/infestor era. In the 9month between Dear winning GSL and Pigbaby winning WCS AM Protoss won 17 of 24 tournaments (liquipedia count plus blizzcon 2013 and WCS S3 Global 2013 finals which aren't listed) including every WCS tournament except for one WCS AM, Blizzcon, and that superstacked 100k IEM WC. It was only repaired with a variety of patches from tons of MsC nerfs, hydralisk buff, and multiple WM buffs that basically more than doubled the damage of the mine against protoss. In basically whatever time frame you take for the BL/Infestor (usually May12-Feb13 but it's not like the playstyle wasn't known before the queen patch, nor that the queen patch in May immidiatly made zerg win everything, MC vs Seed GSL finals says hello), zerg didn't even make 50% tournament wins. In fact, as imbalanced as it was in late 2012 and early 2013, early 2012 was extremely terran dominated and mid-late 2012 was the best era protoss ever had in Wings of Liberty. Tournamentwise 2012 was the most balanced year WoL ever had, though it was obviously split between terran domination early and Zerg domination late with a very high amount of protoss wins too. What this has to do with Mech? Well nothing. You may want to reread what I responded to, because that post explicitely named BL/Infestor worse than the blink era. Where I stepped in and said that his statement is wrong numberswise. The rest of the story is told. Metrics are used to fit narratives. I could argue blink era was much better, as in all of the tournaments you mentioned, the Ro4 was never full P, when it was full Z or close to full Z so many times in BLi and GomTvT. Also a lot more finals were non-mirror when compared to other periods of dominance. See what I did there? Well, I did not much. Domination is domination, as far as I can tell. I don't really know why these ideas come back now, tho, as the game has arguably never been as fair as it is today. No you can't. Because you present no metric. I presented numbers, you don't. Why? I don't know, maybe because the numbers to your arugments don't exist?! For example in BL/Inf we had 7 ZvZ finals, in the blink era it was 6 PvP finals. That's your "a lot more" metric that I have researched for you now. Do the others yourself and you may have a narrative. But don't talk out of your ass with nothing in your hands. That's not my argument and you know that, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to do this, but of course numbers to the argument exist. Let's use a GSL metric: best competition was the GSL, and protoss was clearly less dominant in terms of GSL Ro4s than zerg or terran ever was. Because it's the best competition, it's clearly the most representative of the state of the game, and so protoss was less dominant over the two other races because soO made a bunch of finals! The argument makes logical sense. It's pointless though. Which was my point. So again, you give no numbers here. If you don't want to arugment it please don't half-arse it stating something that I have to double-check to see if you even did your homework. Just don't argue it to begin with then and just say that you think the discussion is pointless. Which I can partly agree with, but I'm really fed up with this story of 200% winrate for 25years BL/Infestor. And every month that lies in between us and this era someone adds another 5% and another 3months to his made up notion of how the end of WoL looked like. It's getting ridiculous.
It would help if you actually read people's arguments.
scroll to the bottom and look at the monthly winrates since 2010 for each race:
http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
If you notice, between May 2012 and February 2013, Zerg had the highest winrate every month. Oh and guess what, the Queen buff patch came out in May 2012, and HOTS was released in March 2013 This 10 month span is by far the longest period of racial dominance in the history of SC2. Even when the game initially came out, in it's most imbalanced and volatile state-- when maps like Steppes of War and Desert Oasis were in the map pool-- Terran only had the best winrate for the first 7 months.
People aren't exaggerating. You literally offer no evidence to support your claims.
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EPT
