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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On March 09 2015 06:56 Luolis wrote: Rain also played vs the easiest player in the group, while serral didnt get the chance. So beating Ptitdrogo is a worse result than losing to Marinelord? Ok... | ||
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Luolis
Finland7201 Posts
On March 09 2015 06:59 KingAlphard wrote: So beating Ptitdrogo is a worse result than losing to Marinelord? Ok... Id argue that given a chance Serral would beat ptitdrogo and rain wouldve prolly lost to marinelord tonight. | ||
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CAG Husker
United States117 Posts
On March 09 2015 06:56 Luolis wrote: Rain also played vs the easiest player in the group, while serral didnt get the chance. I can't believe I am going to argue against this logic...That's like saying if TaeJa wins IEM the whole finals was unfair because he came from the weak side of the bracket. He's still the one with money in the bank. | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
I don't believe you. You're as salty as I am when Naniwa wins a game. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7201 Posts
On March 09 2015 07:00 CAG Husker wrote: I can't believe I am going to argue against this logic...That's like saying if TaeJa wins IEM the whole finals was unfair because he came from the weak side of the bracket. He's still the one with money in the bank. Yea thats exactly why i think round robin is a better format, as all the players actually face eachother. Its a more balanced group stage format. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7201 Posts
On March 09 2015 07:01 boxerfred wrote: I don't believe you. You're so salty like I am when Naniwa wins a game. Im salty that naniwa wins, because naniwa, not protoss  | ||
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CAG Husker
United States117 Posts
On March 09 2015 07:01 Luolis wrote: Yea thats exactly why i think round robin is a better format, as all the players actually face eachother. Its a more balanced group stage format. I would love for IEM to last over two months, but it's just not realistic to get all the players to play each other. That's an absurd amount of matches. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7201 Posts
On March 09 2015 07:04 CAG Husker wrote: I would love for IEM to last over two months, but it's just not realistic to get all the players to play each other. That's an absurd amount of matches. Round robin in group stages =/= round robin in bracket stages O_o | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On March 09 2015 06:59 Luolis wrote: Id argue that given a chance Serral would beat ptitdrogo and rain wouldve prolly lost to marinelord tonight. But you can't be sure about that, and even then it would be 2-2 versus 2-2 bo3 score between Rain and Serral, so it still wouldn't be a situation where the player with the worse performance advanced. | ||
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CAG Husker
United States117 Posts
On March 09 2015 07:05 Luolis wrote: Round robin in group stages =/= round robin in bracket stages O_o That is true, but why should there be groups in the first place? Some groups will always be weaker than others, so it's still 'unfair'. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7201 Posts
On March 09 2015 07:07 CAG Husker wrote: That is true, but why should there be groups in the first place? Some groups will always be weaker than others, so it's still 'unfair'. Okay, i give up for having the groups to be balanced and more fair. Why would we like fairness. | ||
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Xoronius
Germany6362 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
The question is rather, how much more time consuming is it and how unfair is it if your last match is against a player that is already sure to go out and who might not give a fuck about the game. Or if he is a whiney bitch that cannot deal with losing acts like a little baby and throws in the most obvious way. On a different note, how did Serral win the first set against Rain? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12619 Posts
On March 09 2015 08:38 Big J wrote: It's an open secret that Round Robin is the only fair system. No it isn't, lol. It's true that the reason it is used less is because it's much easier to schedule a double elimination group, as you know all matches are relevant and you know how many of them there will be with a certainty. But it doesn't follow that we lose a whole ton when it comes to fairness. The notion that what happened in this group was unfair is pretty much arbitrary. | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On March 09 2015 08:38 Big J wrote: It's an open secret that Round Robin is the only fair system. The question is rather, how much more time consuming is it and how unfair is it if your last match is against a player that is already sure to go out and who might not give a fuck about the game. Or if he is a whiney bitch that cannot deal with losing acts like a little baby and throws in the most obvious way. On a different note, how did Serral win the first set against Rain? I only caught the end of the first map which was a Swarm Host vs Tempest basetrade which was a pretty easy win for Serral. The second game was on Expedition Lost and Serral took the gold as his 2nd base and his forward base as his 3rd (so his backdoor base wasn't taken yet) and Rain tried to kill his gold with a 2 base Gateway push which was held pretty easily with Roaches. | ||
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lohdon
170 Posts
Player A 2-0 Player B 1-1 Player C 1-1 Player D 0-2 The last games are Player A vs Player B and Player C vs Player D. How is that fair at all? Player D might be the weakest Player of the group but you can bet that he tried his best in the first two games while now he is already eliminated for sure and probably a walk over for Player C because the game has no meaning whatsoever for him. Also Round Robin makes it a lot easier for match fixing to happen. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 09 2015 09:08 Nebuchad wrote: No it isn't, lol. It's true that the reason it is used less is because it's much easier to schedule a double elimination group, as you know all matches are relevant and you know how many of them there will be with a certainty. But it doesn't follow that we lose a whole ton when it comes to fairness. The notion that what happened in this group was unfair is pretty much arbitrary. It's easily mathematically proveable that - assuming everyone plays his heart out - the outcome of a double elimination group is largely dependend on who you go up against first. It is therefore wrong to say that everyone in such a "group" has an equal chance of advancing. Hell, how often have we read "I hope X makes it through but having to play against Y first is going to be tough". Exactly. Playing against certain people first is a disadvantage given that player's skills and forms differ. In no way am I interested in a discussion about this group though, since I didn't even see it. My only point was that Round Robin is obviously fairer if we could ensure sportsmanship and didn't have to worry about game lengths. Which we can't and have to and the used bracket gives us just that for the price of being a little bit unfair. On March 09 2015 09:21 ZAiNs wrote: I only caught the end of the first map which was a Swarm Host vs Tempest basetrade which was a pretty easy win for Serral. The second game was on Expedition Lost and Serral took the gold as his 2nd base and his forward base as his 3rd (so his backdoor base wasn't taken yet) and Rain tried to kill his gold with a 2 base Gateway push which was held pretty easily with Roaches. thanks a lot! That gold base EL game sounds like I need to look it up  | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12619 Posts
It comes down to the traditional conflict between something slightly unfair that happens a lot and something much more unfair that happens less often. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7201 Posts
On March 09 2015 09:22 lohdon wrote: Round Robin is a terrible format and clearly not the fairest just imagine following scenario which isn't uncommon: Player A 2-0 Player B 1-1 Player C 1-1 Player D 0-2 The last games are Player A vs Player B and Player C vs Player D. How is that fair at all? Player D might be the weakest Player of the group but you can bet that he tried his best in the first two games while now he is already eliminated for sure and probably a walk over for Player C because the game has no meaning whatsoever for him. Also Round Robin makes it a lot easier for match fixing to happen. If player A wins player b, and player D wins player C theres still a chance for D to go through lol. Your scenario fails. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18772 Posts
On March 09 2015 09:22 lohdon wrote: Round Robin is a terrible format and clearly not the fairest just imagine following scenario which isn't uncommon: Player A 2-0 Player B 1-1 Player C 1-1 Player D 0-2 The last games are Player A vs Player B and Player C vs Player D. How is that fair at all? Player D might be the weakest Player of the group but you can bet that he tried his best in the first two games while now he is already eliminated for sure and probably a walk over for Player C because the game has no meaning whatsoever for him. Also Round Robin makes it a lot easier for match fixing to happen. Thanks for the example! Best example why Round Robin is fair since all four players still have a chance to advance | ||
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