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On June 29 2014 09:03 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 07:51 Zenbrez wrote:On June 29 2014 07:25 KingofGods wrote:On June 29 2014 07:12 negativedge wrote:On June 29 2014 06:02 KingofGods wrote:
Back then even Huk and Naniwa were winning tournaments for protoss. Objectively speaking, I don't think anyone would have said they were dominating players that were head and shoulders above the rest of the field. they were far and away the best foreigners, though. and if you went by foreign race talent and representation, people would be saying zerg is overpowered right now. Were they really that much better than Idra, Select, and QXC? Select and QXC? Yes, Idra was always a contender, unfortunately only 1 person can win a tournament (which Idra has won some) QXC all killed IM when Nestea and MVP were in their primes. Huk lived in Korea for so long and still didn't do much. Did they even let him play in GSTLs when it was EG-Liquid?
I'm a huge qxc fan, and absolutely loved that all kill but he didn't play both. He did play MVP but not Nestea. EG-Liquid never were in the GSL and he did play a few times in proleague. Also Huk was in code S multiple times through Up and Downs and Seeds
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On June 29 2014 02:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 01:56 KingofGods wrote:So besides Taeja, the last terran to win a premier tournament was Polt in September of 2013. And terran only have one major tournament win by Masa in February, a measly online tournament with 5k prize pool, since November of 2013. Nice. When you say "besides Taeja" you mean the 2 most recent non-GSL major tournaments? Not that I disagree with your general sentiment, but it's a pretty big thing to sweep HSC and Dreamhack under the rug like you did.
Well I postet the links to speak for themselfes (v or f?).
Besides Taeja plays just out of this world. His perfect sweep at Dreamhack... oh my...
You can't argue about taejas wins, he didn't play cheesy or whatever all 20+ Games. he was behind in several, came back, won. He really plays better then the rest these days.
For the last few tournaments Taeja was the terran hope the terran needed.
But besides Taeja there would be beasts like the mentioned ones: Innovation, Flash, BByong, Maru...
And they don't get anywhere near a title (ok Flash almost at shoutcraft, maru with his quarterfinals... but no final win) or several consecutive ones which would lead to the implication that there is a dominating "best of the world" player. Instead they change all the time because of the randomness of the game. But no matter what, the winner is most of the time a protoss or a zerg and it will take long for a terran to win or even dominate.
Also, it is a common saying that the best player of a race often overcome the balance of it.... or so... sorry for my bad english, I am drunk again  On June 29 2014 02:42 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 02:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 29 2014 01:56 KingofGods wrote:So besides Taeja, the last terran to win a premier tournament was Polt in September of 2013. And terran only have one major tournament win by Masa in February, a measly online tournament with 5k prize pool, since November of 2013. Nice. When you say "besides Taeja" you mean the 2 most recent non-GSL major tournaments? Not that I disagree with your general sentiment, but it's a pretty big thing to sweep HSC and Dreamhack under the rug like you did. Well when there is one player who is performing really well the logical conclusion is that that player is performing really well, when you have multiple players of the same race (Zest, trap, Classic, sOs, HerO, San, herO, MC) all winning tournaments in the same period of time that's much more of a trend than one player.
sums it up quite well, thx
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On June 29 2014 07:10 negativedge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 04:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 29 2014 04:45 Shellshock wrote:
to say no one was crying when protoss wasn't winning is just wrong. Every period of sc2 has had crying from whatever race wasn't winning. it's not unique to any group True, but I think people tend to have some bias in favor of Terran because the mechanical aspects of the race are more blatant. It's harder to see what makes a good Protoss player, because the differences between a grandmaster and a world class player are subtle, though huge. It's easier to see how good Maru or INnoVatioN are because their good moves are spectacular. Good Protoss moves are often so subtle and decision making based people usually overlook them... Then again, people will always whine and I guess we'll have to deal with that until the end of times. this is all that needs to be said. people favor terran because it looks more flashy. it is of course their prerogative to like what race they like, but it goes over the line to me when appreciation for terran just turns into hate for everything else, which seems to most often be the case. in most sports the true fans revel in the subtleties of the match, but that does not seem to happen in starcraft. part of it here might be because protoss was relatively flashy in brood war, so the more staid strategic decision making and tactical positioning that define the race in SC2 is given a bad name.
if the terran race is more attractive to the viewer and the protoss isn't then blizzard should balance the hell out of the game so terran comes back very fast and viewership numbers rise again.
Also: it isn't like... well protoss can't do the shit a terran can. Since the late WoL days (these were the BL Winfestor days or also PvZ days) until today I find the protoss race boring to watch. Maybe because I have seen it so often or maybe because... well it is just boring. Too strong abilities, not enough needed to do for the victory.
On June 29 2014 08:21 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 06:35 JJH777 wrote:
Protoss's terrible period had by far the most crying. It was the only time balance whining got endorsed by TL itself. Was pretty much a complete joke. Especially since it only lasted like 3 months. Yeah it was longer than that if you go purely by GSL victories but the time where they were actually severely underrepresented in GSL was like 2 GSLs total then they bounced right back and took 2nd place twice in a row while doing really well in overall representation in each round (something terran isn't doing now). Plus they never actually started doing bad in foreign tournaments. Even when there were only 5 of them in GSL and 0 made the ro8 they were still winning plenty of foreign stuff. Protoss winrates were down around 30% though at that time, at no other time in the history of WoL or HOTS has a race been doing that poorly. It wasn't just that they weren't winning tournaments, they were getting curbstomped by everyone left and right and had no viable strategies that weren't soul-train.
so what happened? Was there a big balance chance?
First few month the game (WoL that is) was really unbalanced und not yet figured out. AND because the most players at the top just played terran. That led to the huge ammounts of terrans in code s.
The figuring out part was maybe the biggest factor: terran players figured out their race quite fast, had tons of allins and cheeses and the opponents had no answer yet.
Still the first few GSLs were won by non-terrans. If you rewatch the vod's you would actually think they were won by bad players. Like fruitdealer who over and over blew up tanks with banelings - not with zerglings.
Parallel drops, multitasking and multi-harassing isn't something that is only possible when you play terran.
And also it is still super annoying when the terran does all that shit like dropping and doing damage at 3 location at the same time 20 minutes over and over and in the end the toss just walks over with his deathball that he just needed to babysit and build and in the end the a move + press some "casts" button will win the game. Not everytime ofc and not that I want to balance whine, I just say it is annoying to watch... no even more so: it is frustrating and kinda unfair. Like it or not, but noone likes it if you work hard for something and obviously do your shit and the other one SEEMS to lean back and then just walk over you. Yeah if it is really the subtle deatails the protoss does to win, and we as a viewer don't see them, Blizzard has to change that so the good moves of the top of the world protoss players can be seen by all of us, otherwise it will always feel a bit unfair and unbalanced.
Besides that I give you the point that the top players do a lot of subtle stuff while I don't see what they are doing/thinking, there are still problems in that game that need to be fixed to make it more... climatic. Can't be right, that the toss just moves over you while you made damage the whole game. And that he has so many successfull early attacks/allins that you all have to prepare for. Or some mechanics (warpin) and so on.
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On June 29 2014 04:57 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 04:49 Zealously wrote:On June 29 2014 04:37 Josh_Video wrote:
Fun fact; The last Terran GSL Champion was Mvp. In 2012 Season 2. That's over two years ago. Fun fact: Maru won OSL last year Quiet you with your "logic" and "reason". Sad to see Soo lose. I hope he isn't really retiring and that its just a depressed tweet
Yes, all the "Logic" and "Reason" with him disregarding the letters G S and L. I am fully aware that Maru won an OSL last year, hell, I really don't even care that a Terran hasn't won in a long time. I just found that out yesterday and it surprised me.
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Congrats to Classic. I hope he and Trap will carry the Protoss race forward, as two of the best current Protoss players.
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On June 29 2014 09:59 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 07:10 negativedge wrote:On June 29 2014 04:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 29 2014 04:45 Shellshock wrote:
to say no one was crying when protoss wasn't winning is just wrong. Every period of sc2 has had crying from whatever race wasn't winning. it's not unique to any group True, but I think people tend to have some bias in favor of Terran because the mechanical aspects of the race are more blatant. It's harder to see what makes a good Protoss player, because the differences between a grandmaster and a world class player are subtle, though huge. It's easier to see how good Maru or INnoVatioN are because their good moves are spectacular. Good Protoss moves are often so subtle and decision making based people usually overlook them... Then again, people will always whine and I guess we'll have to deal with that until the end of times. this is all that needs to be said. people favor terran because it looks more flashy. it is of course their prerogative to like what race they like, but it goes over the line to me when appreciation for terran just turns into hate for everything else, which seems to most often be the case. in most sports the true fans revel in the subtleties of the match, but that does not seem to happen in starcraft. part of it here might be because protoss was relatively flashy in brood war, so the more staid strategic decision making and tactical positioning that define the race in SC2 is given a bad name. if the terran race is more attractive to the viewer and the protoss isn't then blizzard should balance the hell out of the game so terran comes back very fast and viewership numbers rise again. Also: it isn't like... well protoss can't do the shit a terran can. Since the late WoL days (these were the BL Winfestor days or also PvZ days) until today I find the protoss race boring to watch. Maybe because I have seen it so often or maybe because... well it is just boring. Too strong abilities, not enough needed to do for the victory. Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 08:21 Whitewing wrote:On June 29 2014 06:35 JJH777 wrote:
Protoss's terrible period had by far the most crying. It was the only time balance whining got endorsed by TL itself. Was pretty much a complete joke. Especially since it only lasted like 3 months. Yeah it was longer than that if you go purely by GSL victories but the time where they were actually severely underrepresented in GSL was like 2 GSLs total then they bounced right back and took 2nd place twice in a row while doing really well in overall representation in each round (something terran isn't doing now). Plus they never actually started doing bad in foreign tournaments. Even when there were only 5 of them in GSL and 0 made the ro8 they were still winning plenty of foreign stuff. Protoss winrates were down around 30% though at that time, at no other time in the history of WoL or HOTS has a race been doing that poorly. It wasn't just that they weren't winning tournaments, they were getting curbstomped by everyone left and right and had no viable strategies that weren't soul-train. so what happened? Was there a big balance chance? First few month the game (WoL that is) was really unbalanced und not yet figured out. AND because the most players at the top just played terran. That led to the huge ammounts of terrans in code s. The figuring out part was maybe the biggest factor: terran players figured out their race quite fast, had tons of allins and cheeses and the opponents had no answer yet. Still the first few GSLs were won by non-terrans. If you rewatch the vod's you would actually think they were won by bad players. Like fruitdealer who over and over blew up tanks with banelings - not with zerglings. Parallel drops, multitasking and multi-harassing isn't something that is only possible when you play terran. And also it is still super annoying when the terran does all that shit like dropping and doing damage at 3 location at the same time 20 minutes over and over and in the end the toss just walks over with his deathball that he just needed to babysit and build and in the end the a move + press some "casts" button will win the game. Not everytime ofc and not that I want to balance whine, I just say it is annoying to watch... no even more so: it is frustrating and kinda unfair. Like it or not, but noone likes it if you work hard for something and obviously do your shit and the other one SEEMS to lean back and then just walk over you. Yeah if it is really the subtle deatails the protoss does to win, and we as a viewer don't see them, Blizzard has to change that so the good moves of the top of the world protoss players can be seen by all of us, otherwise it will always feel a bit unfair and unbalanced. Besides that I give you the point that the top players do a lot of subtle stuff while I don't see what they are doing/thinking, there are still problems in that game that need to be fixed to make it more... climatic. Can't be right, that the toss just moves over you while you made damage the whole game. And that he has so many successfull early attacks/allins that you all have to prepare for. Or some mechanics (warpin) and so on.
The thing about BW is that the restricted macro and unit selection mechanics itself balanced the game quite successfully.
In terms of efficiency, the Zerg race definitely have the advantage with their mass production and damage per seconds. But the players must go to each base's screen in order to macro and to utilize all sort of hotkeys for army control.
Then Protoss players have less numbers to work with but the race itself have the more "exciting" spells to play around.
And Terran's strength is that they have Tanks, Spidermines, Turrets, Scans to sit defensively but their weakness lies in that if you don't set them up properly, the Tanks, Spidermines can really backfire on you due to their high area of effect and dmg.
Each races have their specific identity.
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On June 29 2014 09:45 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 02:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 29 2014 01:56 KingofGods wrote:So besides Taeja, the last terran to win a premier tournament was Polt in September of 2013. And terran only have one major tournament win by Masa in February, a measly online tournament with 5k prize pool, since November of 2013. Nice. When you say "besides Taeja" you mean the 2 most recent non-GSL major tournaments? Not that I disagree with your general sentiment, but it's a pretty big thing to sweep HSC and Dreamhack under the rug like you did. Well I postet the links to speak for themselfes (v or f?). Besides Taeja plays just out of this world. His perfect sweep at Dreamhack... oh my... You can't argue about taejas wins, he didn't play cheesy or whatever all 20+ Games. he was behind in several, came back, won. He really plays better then the rest these days. For the last few tournaments Taeja was the terran hope the terran needed. But besides Taeja there would be beasts like the mentioned ones: Innovation, Flash, BByong, Maru... And they don't get anywhere near a title (ok Flash almost at shoutcraft, maru with his quarterfinals... but no final win) or several consecutive ones which would lead to the implication that there is a dominating "best of the world" player. Instead they change all the time because of the randomness of the game. But no matter what, the winner is most of the time a protoss or a zerg and it will take long for a terran to win or even dominate. Also, it is a common saying that the best player of a race often overcome the balance of it.... or so... sorry for my bad english, I am drunk again Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 02:42 Caihead wrote:On June 29 2014 02:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 29 2014 01:56 KingofGods wrote:So besides Taeja, the last terran to win a premier tournament was Polt in September of 2013. And terran only have one major tournament win by Masa in February, a measly online tournament with 5k prize pool, since November of 2013. Nice. When you say "besides Taeja" you mean the 2 most recent non-GSL major tournaments? Not that I disagree with your general sentiment, but it's a pretty big thing to sweep HSC and Dreamhack under the rug like you did. Well when there is one player who is performing really well the logical conclusion is that that player is performing really well, when you have multiple players of the same race (Zest, trap, Classic, sOs, HerO, San, herO, MC) all winning tournaments in the same period of time that's much more of a trend than one player. sums it up quite well, thx
Like I have said, I do agree with the general sentiment. It just doesn't lead to good discussions when recent results are ignored 
Terrans don't exactly have a good chance of winning a GSL right now. Its possible for a few players, but the race overall is statistically at a disadvantage. But even if that were the case, people trying to counter-argue the weakness of terran merely have to point at Taeja's recent wins to show that terrans are doing well. If you initially ignore the results, than you're cherry picking results to skew statistics. If you embrace recent results you can point out exactly what is wrong with the race design wise and not just winrate wise.
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On June 29 2014 09:59 Rollora wrote:Parallel drops, multitasking and multi-harassing isn't something that is only possible when you play terran.
And also it is still super annoying when the terran does all that shit like dropping and doing damage at 3 location at the same time 20 minutes over and over and in the end the toss just walks over with his deathball that he just needed to babysit and build and in the end the a move + press some "casts" button will win the game.
this just means that you don't know how the game works. terran do multipronged drop harass (when they do, which is only sometimes) because bio + medivacs is very cost efficient and high dps in small numbers, not because they are better than everyone else. zerg could load up roaches in overlords and drop them everywhere if they wanted to, but only if they want to lose. protoss are really only effective doing this with zealot run-bys or late game DT harass, but of which top players do with regularity. this is a particular strength of the terran race that you are ignoring.
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On June 29 2014 09:26 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 09:03 KingofGods wrote:On June 29 2014 07:51 Zenbrez wrote:On June 29 2014 07:25 KingofGods wrote:On June 29 2014 07:12 negativedge wrote:On June 29 2014 06:02 KingofGods wrote:
Back then even Huk and Naniwa were winning tournaments for protoss. Objectively speaking, I don't think anyone would have said they were dominating players that were head and shoulders above the rest of the field. they were far and away the best foreigners, though. and if you went by foreign race talent and representation, people would be saying zerg is overpowered right now. Were they really that much better than Idra, Select, and QXC? Select and QXC? Yes, Idra was always a contender, unfortunately only 1 person can win a tournament (which Idra has won some) QXC all killed IM when Nestea and MVP were in their primes. Huk lived in Korea for so long and still didn't do much. Did they even let him play in GSTLs when it was EG-Liquid? I'm a huge qxc fan, and absolutely loved that all kill but he didn't play both. He did play MVP but not Nestea. EG-Liquid never were in the GSL and he did play a few times in proleague. Also Huk was in code S multiple times through Up and Downs and Seeds
also huk played(and won) ace matches for oGs, made Ro8 of GSL, Huk won 2MLG's(although when there were few if any koreans present), but still Select and QXC were around then too, and a dream hack and a homestory cup too, Idra is close but i feel Huk has a significantly better accomplishments then both Select and QXC;s
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On June 29 2014 15:30 annedeman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 09:26 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 29 2014 09:03 KingofGods wrote:On June 29 2014 07:51 Zenbrez wrote:On June 29 2014 07:25 KingofGods wrote:On June 29 2014 07:12 negativedge wrote:On June 29 2014 06:02 KingofGods wrote:
Back then even Huk and Naniwa were winning tournaments for protoss. Objectively speaking, I don't think anyone would have said they were dominating players that were head and shoulders above the rest of the field. they were far and away the best foreigners, though. and if you went by foreign race talent and representation, people would be saying zerg is overpowered right now. Were they really that much better than Idra, Select, and QXC? Select and QXC? Yes, Idra was always a contender, unfortunately only 1 person can win a tournament (which Idra has won some) QXC all killed IM when Nestea and MVP were in their primes. Huk lived in Korea for so long and still didn't do much. Did they even let him play in GSTLs when it was EG-Liquid? I'm a huge qxc fan, and absolutely loved that all kill but he didn't play both. He did play MVP but not Nestea. EG-Liquid never were in the GSL and he did play a few times in proleague. Also Huk was in code S multiple times through Up and Downs and Seeds also huk played(and won) ace matches for oGs, made Ro8 of GSL, and made Ro8, Huk won 3 MLG's(although 2 of them were when there were few if any koreans present), but still Select and QXC were around then too, and a dream hack and a homestory cup too, Idra is close but i feel Huk has a significantly better accomplishments then both Select and QXC;s
Huk was also the first player (korean or otherwise) to win 2 MLGs.
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On June 29 2014 15:30 annedeman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 09:26 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 29 2014 09:03 KingofGods wrote:On June 29 2014 07:51 Zenbrez wrote:On June 29 2014 07:25 KingofGods wrote:On June 29 2014 07:12 negativedge wrote:On June 29 2014 06:02 KingofGods wrote:
Back then even Huk and Naniwa were winning tournaments for protoss. Objectively speaking, I don't think anyone would have said they were dominating players that were head and shoulders above the rest of the field. they were far and away the best foreigners, though. and if you went by foreign race talent and representation, people would be saying zerg is overpowered right now. Were they really that much better than Idra, Select, and QXC? Select and QXC? Yes, Idra was always a contender, unfortunately only 1 person can win a tournament (which Idra has won some) QXC all killed IM when Nestea and MVP were in their primes. Huk lived in Korea for so long and still didn't do much. Did they even let him play in GSTLs when it was EG-Liquid? I'm a huge qxc fan, and absolutely loved that all kill but he didn't play both. He did play MVP but not Nestea. EG-Liquid never were in the GSL and he did play a few times in proleague. Also Huk was in code S multiple times through Up and Downs and Seeds also huk played(and won) ace matches for oGs, made Ro8 of GSL, Huk won 2MLG's(although when there were few if any koreans present), but still Select and QXC were around then too, and a dream hack and a homestory cup too, Idra is close but i feel Huk has a significantly better accomplishments then both Select and QXC;s
MLG Orlando had a bunch of Koreans. Huk beat MC in the finals of that tournament, and looking back at the results he also beat July, MKP, TheSTC, and MC again in the pools. It's arguably the best tournament win by a foreigner in SC2 history, with Stephano at IPL3 and Thorzain at DH coming to mind as the only competitors.
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United States7483 Posts
On June 29 2014 18:01 negativedge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 15:30 annedeman wrote:On June 29 2014 09:26 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 29 2014 09:03 KingofGods wrote:On June 29 2014 07:51 Zenbrez wrote:On June 29 2014 07:25 KingofGods wrote:On June 29 2014 07:12 negativedge wrote:On June 29 2014 06:02 KingofGods wrote:
Back then even Huk and Naniwa were winning tournaments for protoss. Objectively speaking, I don't think anyone would have said they were dominating players that were head and shoulders above the rest of the field. they were far and away the best foreigners, though. and if you went by foreign race talent and representation, people would be saying zerg is overpowered right now. Were they really that much better than Idra, Select, and QXC? Select and QXC? Yes, Idra was always a contender, unfortunately only 1 person can win a tournament (which Idra has won some) QXC all killed IM when Nestea and MVP were in their primes. Huk lived in Korea for so long and still didn't do much. Did they even let him play in GSTLs when it was EG-Liquid? I'm a huge qxc fan, and absolutely loved that all kill but he didn't play both. He did play MVP but not Nestea. EG-Liquid never were in the GSL and he did play a few times in proleague. Also Huk was in code S multiple times through Up and Downs and Seeds also huk played(and won) ace matches for oGs, made Ro8 of GSL, Huk won 2MLG's(although when there were few if any koreans present), but still Select and QXC were around then too, and a dream hack and a homestory cup too, Idra is close but i feel Huk has a significantly better accomplishments then both Select and QXC;s MLG Orlando had a bunch of Koreans. Huk beat MC in the finals of that tournament, and looking back at the results he also beat July, MKP, TheSTC, and MC again in the pools. It's arguably the best tournament win by a foreigner in SC2 history, with Stephano at IPL3 and Thorzain at DH coming to mind as the only competitors.
Shhhhh, TSL3 man. Thorzain beat Fruitdealer, Nony, MC, Kas and Naniwa. ThorZaIN is the man.
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Poland3752 Posts
On June 29 2014 04:49 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 04:37 Josh_Video wrote:
Fun fact; The last Terran GSL Champion was Mvp. In 2012 Season 2. That's over two years ago. Fun fact: Maru won OSL last year
Yes, OSL != GSL.
Also the last time zerg won OSL it was Effort in 2010.
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There were three players I saw great potential in and supported heavily from very early on in their professional careers. One was Soulkey. Another was Classic. The third was Hydra. All three became champions at a time when the majority of posters on this forum would have written them off.
This result brings me a great amount of satisfaction. I sincerely hope that Classic has finally found a lasting confidence in his abilities, and that he will continue to do well in the future.
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Disappointed in soO. Disappointed in the games, too. They were rather ugly and chaotic, quite unlike the beautifully orchestrated armies even in soO vs. Zest.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37058 Posts
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On June 30 2014 02:20 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 04:49 Zealously wrote:On June 29 2014 04:37 Josh_Video wrote:
Fun fact; The last Terran GSL Champion was Mvp. In 2012 Season 2. That's over two years ago. Fun fact: Maru won OSL last year Yes, OSL != GSL. Also the last time zerg won OSL it was Effort in 2010.
I never said GSL = OSL, it was only a fun fact
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
I feel so sorry for Soo :/
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I knew Classic would do it, now all STX Protosses won a championship hyvaa to be the next zerg bonjwa?
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It must be so frustrating to lose to a team mate you see every day. Poor SoObear.
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EPT
