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th3rogue
Germany683 Posts
The CM Storm ESL Go4SC2 July 2013 Finals are on Monday 16:30 GMT (+00:00), featuring sixteen great players competing for a share of €600 in prize money. Prizes 1st. €300 2nd. €150 3/4th. €75 Streams English: ESL TV with Icicle Brackets on ESL site (live from start) Players ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BvmGglC.jpg) TLPD  DieStar ImBaTosS StarbuckBlyStrelokGoOdyLuckySchatten GaofushuaiJackOgrxKStarDustMarine SoulSiwRevolver | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
also, didnt siw retire? gl with the tournament, hope that strelok will win. | ||
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Wormi
Germany181 Posts
-.-" | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12467 Posts
On August 19 2013 18:50 Wormi wrote: Imbatoss... -.-" He's played a lot of this league being consistent and not winning, I don't remember a cup where he hasn't reached top 8, and I don't remember a cup where he won either. We should probably watch some of his games since he's topping GM Europe right now Edit: oh there is something I don't know? | ||
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NovaMB
Germany9534 Posts
On August 19 2013 19:21 Nebuchad wrote: He's played a lot of this league being consistent and not winning, I don't remember a cup where he hasn't reached top 8, and I don't remember a cup where he won either. We should probably watch some of his games since he's topping GM Europe right now Edit: oh there is something I don't know? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423044 + Show Spoiler + Long story short: Every pro player says hes maphacking and after seeing his games yesterday, I have to agree. Way to obvious build-order counters every game. And in general some really weird shit. And hes got #1 GM EU with really bad mechanics and decision making for the supposedly best player on EU ladder. Every pro just leaves now when they get matched up with him, giving him even more ladder points. Btw. the korean "Marine" is mouz.Heromarine. | ||
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suddendeathTV
Sweden388 Posts
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th3rogue
Germany683 Posts
We are reviewing the replays as soon as possible, but it is a difficult time with preparations for gamescom (WCS finals) making two of our most qualified people (Kennigit and Shawn) for reviewing replays unavailable | ||
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Strelok
Ukraine320 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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suddendeathTV
Sweden388 Posts
On August 19 2013 19:55 th3rogue wrote: We are very aware of the accusations against Imbatoss, but until last night not a single opponent of his in the ESL had opened a protest with a timetable against him, which has forever been our procedure for handling accusations of cheating. In general we do not ban players for cheating outside of the ESL (that is Blizzard's responsibility) We are reviewing the replays as soon as possible, but it is a difficult time with preparations for gamescom (WCS finals) making two of our most qualified people (Kennigit and Shawn) for reviewing replays unavailable So instead you keep giving money to a well-known cheater? o_O could someone please report imbatoss DIRECTLY to ESL then, so that they can prevent imbatoss from stealing more money? EDIT: just saw that you wrote "...until last night", so I'm guessing someone has reported him directly to you then. How is the process after that? Someone under investigation should no longer be allowed to play, correct? Or will he be able to win money in this tournament again until you come to a decision? | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
On August 19 2013 23:03 Sated wrote: Or ESL could look at this massive shitstorm of a thread, apply some common sense, and ban the hacking cunt..? If you applied some common sense, you would agree that you can't ban anyone because a shitstorm on the internet. Why none of the people who lost to him, that complained on forum, twitter, chats afterwards has reported him through the ESL interface before yesterday is beyond me. | ||
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th3rogue
Germany683 Posts
On August 19 2013 23:05 grs wrote: If you applied some common sense, you would agree that you can't ban anyone because a shitstorm on the internet. Why none of the people who lost to him, that complained on forum, twitter, chats afterwards has reported him through the ESL interface before yesterday is beyond me. Correct, thank you. We do not ban someone just because they are unpopular on a community site; not least for the sanctity of the league, but for legal reasons too - unlike any other league I am aware of, we have been to court over banning players for cheating (if I remember correctly, for defamation) How we handle cheating has never changed: an opponent in an ESL match opens a protest and provides evidence and/or a timetable, the timetable is reviewed by multiple people and voted on, and a final decision is made - much like a real court - and having this process and "paper trail" helped us in court We will review the evidence of his matches in the ESL, and are trying to discuss the case with Blizzard before it may affect WCS qualifiers | ||
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
DieStar !Its time to show your training results. | ||
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WonnaPlay
Netherlands912 Posts
ImbaToss 1 or 2 months ago was a low GM/high master player which would flame every game whenever he lost, calling you a cheater or a noob/cheeser. Doesn't surprise me he went on a hacking spree, considering his BM and playstyle. He definitely is not top EU. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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suddendeathTV
Sweden388 Posts
On August 19 2013 23:27 th3rogue wrote: Correct, thank you. We do not ban someone just because they are unpopular on a community site; not least for the sanctity of the league, but for legal reasons too - unlike any other league I am aware of, we have been to court over banning players for cheating (if I remember correctly, for defamation) How we handle cheating has never changed: an opponent in an ESL match opens a protest and provides evidence and/or a timetable, the timetable is reviewed by multiple people and voted on, and a final decision is made - much like a real court - and having this process and "paper trail" helped us in court We will review the evidence of his matches in the ESL, and are trying to discuss the case with Blizzard before it may affect WCS qualifiers Wait, basically you're saying that anyone can be a known cheater with loads of evidence against him, but as long as you don't see any cheating-behaviour in an ESL-GAME, you would let him play? So, if Usain Bolt used steroids in one tournament, if you were to host a competition yourselves, you'd let him compete, knowing that he's been on steroids to achieve his strength, as long as he wouldn't take shots during your tournament? I guess that's a pretty bad comparison, but this really makes me fear for the scene that hackers can get all the money they want, as long as they hide it well enough and be extra careful during tournaments. | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
On August 20 2013 01:04 sd_andeh wrote: Wait, basically you're saying that anyone can be a known cheater with loads of evidence against him, but as long as you don't see any cheating-behaviour in an ESL-GAME, you would let him play? So, if Usain Bolt used steroids in one tournament, if you were to host a competition yourselves, you'd let him compete, knowing that he's been on steroids to achieve his strength, as long as he wouldn't take shots during your tournament? I guess that's a pretty bad comparison, but this really makes me fear for the scene that hackers can get all the money they want, as long as they hide it well enough and be extra careful during tournaments. The comparison is indeed very bad. That many/most/all agree that Imbatoss seems to be hacking there is still no hard evidence. Blizzard does not ban him; TL does not ban him and ESL does not ban him either. He seems to cheat, he comes over like an idiot and all that. Excluding him from a tournament he qualified for w/o hard evidence is not that easy to do. There could actually be legal problems. | ||
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KvltMan
Sweden1609 Posts
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InvictusRage
United States230 Posts
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AxelRoy
3 Posts
TL says this is on air yet all the streams I've been able to find are offline... Is TL wrong or am I missing the stream some where? Thanks for your time! | ||
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InvictusRage
United States230 Posts
On August 20 2013 01:58 AxelRoy wrote: Monday Aug 19 1100 hours TL says this is on air yet all the streams I've been able to find are offline... Is TL wrong or am I missing the stream some where? Thanks for your time! The ESL stream just came up for me, though they're not showing games yet. | ||
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
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AxelRoy
3 Posts
On August 20 2013 01:58 InvictusRage wrote: The ESL stream just came up for me, though they're not showing games yet. Thanks man, streams up for me too now! | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
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Niko_Thien
Germany2671 Posts
On August 20 2013 02:11 grs wrote: RiSK 2 : 0 ImBaTosS btw. forgot to turn on his hacks :/ | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12467 Posts
There's a replay uploaded, if anyone is bored enough to check how that went^^ I thought Stardust qualified, and he isn't in the bracket? | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
On August 20 2013 02:23 Nebuchad wrote: There's a replay uploaded, if anyone is bored enough to check how that went^^ I thought Stardust qualified, and he isn't in the bracket? Probably did not sign in. I know that someone was replaced by KnowMe, but I did not get who; so it could be it was Stardust. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On August 20 2013 02:23 Nebuchad wrote: There's a replay uploaded, if anyone is bored enough to check how that went^^ probably not hacking because of everyone ran around shouting: "He might be hacking" and people poking ESL for it and ESL spilling the beans that someone reported him correctly. Less evidence and in hopes to avoid the ESL banhammer, because the ESL bans are loooooong. So lets hope the one report was good enough. | ||
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scsnow
Slovenia515 Posts
vs heromarine? they both 16 I believe? | ||
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Undead1993
Germany17651 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 02:23 Nebuchad wrote: There's a replay uploaded, if anyone is bored enough to check how that went^^ I thought Stardust qualified, and he isn't in the bracket? Thanks, checked out replay. imbatoss lost to SCOUTED in-base 2 proxy gates :D. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
I thought the game was lost after Hero lost 50 workers or so... | ||
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NovaMB
Germany9534 Posts
On August 20 2013 03:52 JustPassingBy wrote: HeroMarine 2:0 Starbuck :D:D:D I thought the game was lost after Hero lost 50 workers or so... It was pretty funny, he lost 50 workers and only was 8 workers down. | ||
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Megiddosc
United States966 Posts
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Pyloss
Germany1515 Posts
And now, i hope for a nice BO5 between MouzMarine and NaviStrelok. :D | ||
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MBH
Ireland796 Posts
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Sabre
United Kingdom1086 Posts
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
On August 20 2013 04:46 Sabre wrote: Imbatoss drophacks his way to the top of GM and blizzard still does nothing. Hope this doesn't last much longer IIrc, the other players just left. | ||
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Pyloss
Germany1515 Posts
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NovaMB
Germany9534 Posts
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On August 20 2013 03:54 Megiddosc wrote: The game is never "lost" for Terran in a TvZ. Especially after losing a lot of workers. same can be said the other way around. As seen in DRGs last Chalenger League Game, as he lost like 40 workers and insta-replaced them, won the game. Terran that loses 40 workers ? Dead Argument invalid, cause the mule discussion is so old, it already has a grey beard. the arguments have been repeated so often (crono makes 50% faster probes, upgrades, army if used wisely , which is stronger then the mule you have from time to time and is there to replace workers that are building something, zerg can produce 7 workers at a time from 1 building that costs 300) plus forcing scans etc means about 200 less income per minute for the terran etc etc. and there are lots of graphs that show an incomewise comparison between the races where terran don't have the lead ;-) FYI | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
Well, I guess third time's the charm when it comes to Germany vs Strelok.  | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 04:59 Rollora wrote: same can be said the other way around. As seen in DRGs last Chalenger League Game, as he lost like 40 workers and insta-replaced them, won the game. Terran that loses 40 workers ? Dead Argument invalid, cause the mule discussion is so old, it already has a grey beard. the arguments have been repeated so often (crono makes 50% faster probes, upgrades, army if used wisely , which is stronger then the mule you have from time to time and is there to replace workers that are building something, zerg can produce 7 workers at a time from 1 building that costs 300) plus forcing scans etc means about 200 less income per minute for the terran etc etc. and there are lots of graphs that show an incomewise comparison between the races where terran don't have the lead ;-) FYI He lost 25 workers. And to be fair, that was a pure game of throws. @Game: Also, losing 50 workers, yet being only 8 workers behind hints me at fact, that those 50 workers were lost throughout the game, so that damage was partially mitigated by usual 3 OC production) (we are talking TvZ here :D). And being 8 workers behind as T against Z is not that bad closer to late game. | ||
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Sabre
United Kingdom1086 Posts
seems more like he dropped them tbh but maybe they said, all of them being 0:00 is pretty strange | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 05:19 Sabre wrote: seems more like he dropped them tbh but maybe they said, all of them being 0:00 is pretty strange Nah, does not look like drophack. He has a real game... lose against slivko :D (and another lose: to 2 proxy gates against StarDust). Nah, not drophack for sure. Also, i love that reaction to 2 proxy gates in form of his own 2 gates lol. | ||
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WonnaPlay
Netherlands912 Posts
On August 20 2013 05:23 lolfail9001 wrote: Nah, does not look like drophack. He has a real game... lose against slivko :D (and another lose: to 2 proxy gates against StarDust). Nah, not drophack for sure. Also, i love that reaction to 2 proxy gates in form of his own 2 gates lol. Well, making 2 gates in a reaction to 2 proxy gates is hardly any proof (without a replay), since that is the basic counter to a 2 gate... | ||
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
On August 20 2013 00:13 Sated wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 19 2013 23:05 grs wrote: If you applied some common sense, you would agree that you can't ban anyone because a shitstorm on the internet. Why none of the people who lost to him, that complained on forum, twitter, chats afterwards has reported him through the ESL interface before yesterday is beyond me. Correct, thank you. We do not ban someone just because they are unpopular on a community site; not least for the sanctity of the league, but for legal reasons too - unlike any other league I am aware of, we have been to court over banning players for cheating (if I remember correctly, for defamation) Don't twist my words. You wouldn't be banning them because of "a shitstorm on the internet" or because "they are unpopular on a community site", you would be banning them because they've already been banned for hacking by other organisations. As far as I'm concerned, hacking in eSPORTS is equatable to banned substance abuse in "real sports" and we should treat it just as harshly. A ban from one tournament should result in a ban from all tournaments. I can understand lesser offences like BM being dealt with on a tournament by tournament basis, but hacking shouldn't be treated that way. ESL shouldn't need proof from a tournament run by ESL, the fact that he's been banned for hacking by other organisations should be more than enough given the number of pro-players who are weighing in on this player's hacking credentials. th3rogue's response makes it sound like ESL are more worried about covering their own backs, which I suppose is something I fully understand given the size of their operation. EDIT: This is a tournament thread so I probably shoudn't continue stinking it up with the hacking debate (hence the spoilers). I understand ESL's position, but I wholly disagree with it. GLHF to the legit players who'll be competing in this tournament. If someone breaks the law then applies for a company, it's the companies job to look at what they have. If the person happened to steal some food from a restaurant he used to work at, and so was fired, it's possible that the law was not involved (blizzard) and so the new company could either talk to the old restaurant (if the same management is still around and kept all their records straight) and find out directly from them why he was fired or let go, then they can choose not to, or to hire him. If it had been taken to the law like it should have, then the new company wouldn't hire him because he wouldn't meet the criteria set forth by their hiring procedures. ESL doesn't need to trust forum shit storms, or other organizations banning players. Recently didn't we have that Clan Infinity "scandal" going around? Something about tournament organizers banning people for map hacking when they weren't map hacking? The rules are simple, reports lead to investigations, which then lead to rulings. Try running an organization as large as ESL and trying to not set standard procedures. You'd be living in your self built hell. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 21:01 WonnaPlay wrote: Well, making 2 gates in a reaction to 2 proxy gates is hardly any proof (without a replay), since that is the basic counter to a 2 gate... I mean 2 gate in a reaction to 2 SCOUTED proxy gates (i have seen in replay, they were really not even hidden well) and still losing. | ||
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starslayer
United States696 Posts
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