On March 11 2013 14:56 HolyArrow wrote:The original argument was regarding the stupid logic of "we weren't actually seeing 'the best' of SC2 because the Kespa players hadn't switched yet", and I still stand by the points I made regarding that.
Why? Most of the top SC2 players today weren't at the top of the scene back when the article was written. Life, Parting, Symbol, DRG, Squirtle, Creator, to list several top ELO players today.
The articles was absolutely correct in saying that SC2 back then sucked because the overall talent wasn't there. The only difference from real life and hypotheticals in the article, is where the infusion of talent would come from. Instead of existing Kespa teams at the time, that talent infusion came from Kespa B-teamers, young progamer wannabes who chose SC2 instead of BW, and other avenues. If Kespa had made the switch on May of 2011 when the article came about, most of these talent would've likelygrown within Kespa teams who had the best funding for developing talent.
But that logic is so broken. Back then they were the best sc2 players, fact. It does not matter if there were people with potential being better. Don't you realize how broken an argument is when you start with "if"? It's basically making stuff up that has not happened just to make your favorite conclusion and somehow you think that is a valid argument?
I can't believe people would rather argue about the Elephant article than celebrate the release of HoTS and the conclusion to the WoL chapter of professional SC2.
On March 12 2013 00:44 TheDougler wrote: I can't believe people would rather argue about the Elephant article than celebrate the release of HoTS and the conclusion to the WoL chapter of professional SC2.
On March 10 2013 22:23 opterown wrote: weren't bisu, jaedong and stork some of the top bw players? haven't exactly done much in sc2, have they?
If you look at their age and general career arc, it becomes pretty obvious that they would have fallen off even if they were still playing Brood War (in fact they arguably have over the last BW season or so). While some players were able to bounce back after their prime, I don't think anybody generally saw Bisu, JD and Stork as OSL/MSL favorites in the last year of BW.
How can someone be old and washed up by age ~22? >.<
On March 10 2013 22:23 opterown wrote: weren't bisu, jaedong and stork some of the top bw players? haven't exactly done much in sc2, have they?
If you look at their age and general career arc, it becomes pretty obvious that they would have fallen off even if they were still playing Brood War (in fact they arguably have over the last BW season or so). While some players were able to bounce back after their prime, I don't think anybody generally saw Bisu, JD and Stork as OSL/MSL favorites in the last year of BW.
How can someone be old and washed up by age ~22? >.<
In Broodwar years, usually once you graduated from high school, you are considered past your prime. 20 years old is close to retirement during BW's heyday, 22 is rare.
Ofc nowadays, it's different. Koreans are not really into SC2 and BW anymore, there are a lot fewer rookies entering the scene than last decade, so veterans can stay longer, just like WC3 guys can stay around for 10 years.
On March 10 2013 22:23 opterown wrote: weren't bisu, jaedong and stork some of the top bw players? haven't exactly done much in sc2, have they?
If you look at their age and general career arc, it becomes pretty obvious that they would have fallen off even if they were still playing Brood War (in fact they arguably have over the last BW season or so). While some players were able to bounce back after their prime, I don't think anybody generally saw Bisu, JD and Stork as OSL/MSL favorites in the last year of BW.
How can someone be old and washed up by age ~22? >.<
No one over 23 has ever won the Starleague iirc... your reflexes become too slow.
On March 10 2013 22:23 opterown wrote: weren't bisu, jaedong and stork some of the top bw players? haven't exactly done much in sc2, have they?
If you look at their age and general career arc, it becomes pretty obvious that they would have fallen off even if they were still playing Brood War (in fact they arguably have over the last BW season or so). While some players were able to bounce back after their prime, I don't think anybody generally saw Bisu, JD and Stork as OSL/MSL favorites in the last year of BW.
How can someone be old and washed up by age ~22? >.<
No one over 23 has ever won the Starleague iirc... your reflexes become too slow.
If you can play in the NFL into your late 30's, I think you can play just fine in a video game past 23. Its not OSL/MSL, but Nestea won his GSL's when he was like 29?
On March 10 2013 22:23 opterown wrote: weren't bisu, jaedong and stork some of the top bw players? haven't exactly done much in sc2, have they?
If you look at their age and general career arc, it becomes pretty obvious that they would have fallen off even if they were still playing Brood War (in fact they arguably have over the last BW season or so). While some players were able to bounce back after their prime, I don't think anybody generally saw Bisu, JD and Stork as OSL/MSL favorites in the last year of BW.
How can someone be old and washed up by age ~22? >.<
No one over 23 has ever won the Starleague iirc... your reflexes become too slow.
If you can play in the NFL into your late 30's, I think you can play just fine in a video game past 23. Its not OSL/MSL, but Nestea won his GSL's when he was like 29?
In a very new game where mechanics at that time didn't matter as much. Brooder was robotic mechanics even though strategy had a point, it was on spot timing, macro and control that won you games.
On March 10 2013 22:23 opterown wrote: weren't bisu, jaedong and stork some of the top bw players? haven't exactly done much in sc2, have they?
If you look at their age and general career arc, it becomes pretty obvious that they would have fallen off even if they were still playing Brood War (in fact they arguably have over the last BW season or so). While some players were able to bounce back after their prime, I don't think anybody generally saw Bisu, JD and Stork as OSL/MSL favorites in the last year of BW.
How can someone be old and washed up by age ~22? >.<
No one over 23 has ever won the Starleague iirc... your reflexes become too slow.
If you can play in the NFL into your late 30's, I think you can play just fine in a video game past 23. Its not OSL/MSL, but Nestea won his GSL's when he was like 29?
Good thing WOL ended. The game was one of my worst experience to watch online. I don't know much about HOTS, but I sincerly hope they corrected their mistakes and made the thing at least watchable and not the borefest I forced myself to watch for some time now.
If, however nothing was really adressed with the expansion, I forsee a very gloomy future for the RTS Korean pro scence. (Not even to mention western scene...)
On March 12 2013 19:19 Boonbag wrote: Good thing WOL ended. The game was one of my worst experience to watch online. I don't know much about HOTS, but I sincerly hope they corrected their mistakes and made the thing at least watchable and not the borefest I forced myself to watch for some time now.
If, however nothing was really adressed with the expansion, I forsee a very gloomy future for the RTS Korean pro scence. (Not even to mention western scene...)
Well... you kinda don't have to watch it if you do not enjoy it oO
If you do not like the game then the expansion will not save it for you
On March 10 2013 22:23 opterown wrote: weren't bisu, jaedong and stork some of the top bw players? haven't exactly done much in sc2, have they?
If you look at their age and general career arc, it becomes pretty obvious that they would have fallen off even if they were still playing Brood War (in fact they arguably have over the last BW season or so). While some players were able to bounce back after their prime, I don't think anybody generally saw Bisu, JD and Stork as OSL/MSL favorites in the last year of BW.
How can someone be old and washed up by age ~22? >.<
No one over 23 has ever won the Starleague iirc... your reflexes become too slow.
regardless if that's actually in the slightest true--its probably not, see piano/guitar/other musicians' finger dexterity--it's still not the reason at all. Not like reflexes really slowed down for july/nada, and some of the apm monsters wouldn't really be that effected if they went from like 400 apm to 350 apm. It's just a formality to not have an over 23 starleague, since there are "slow" people like movie with ~200-250 apm go to OSL finals, and Much going to MSL semifinals/losing wcg korea 3rd place at age 24 (where yeah wcg isn't starleague, but it was all the korean progamers competing at their fullest until they qualified).
it's just that at age 22 your priorities are different than that 17 year old kid who just dropped out of high school to grind games 20 hours a day. Especially since koreans have to do military service, and the 17 year old may not think about it as much as the 22 year old.
On March 10 2013 22:23 opterown wrote: weren't bisu, jaedong and stork some of the top bw players? haven't exactly done much in sc2, have they?
If you look at their age and general career arc, it becomes pretty obvious that they would have fallen off even if they were still playing Brood War (in fact they arguably have over the last BW season or so). While some players were able to bounce back after their prime, I don't think anybody generally saw Bisu, JD and Stork as OSL/MSL favorites in the last year of BW.
How can someone be old and washed up by age ~22? >.<
No one over 23 has ever won the Starleague iirc... your reflexes become too slow.
regardless if that's actually in the slightest true--its probably not, see piano/guitar/other musicians' finger dexterity--it's still not the reason at all. Not like reflexes really slowed down for july/nada, and some of the apm monsters wouldn't really be that effected if they went from like 400 apm to 350 apm. It's just a formality to not have an over 23 starleague, since there are "slow" people like movie with ~200-250 apm go to OSL finals, and Much going to MSL semifinals/losing wcg korea 3rd place at age 24 (where yeah wcg isn't starleague, but it was all the korean progamers competing at their fullest until they qualified).
it's just that at age 22 your priorities are different than that 17 year old kid who just dropped out of high school to grind games 20 hours a day. Especially since koreans have to do military service, and the 17 year old may not think about it as much as the 22 year old.
July is the oldest starleague or MSL winner (I think) and he won in 2008 when he was 22-23 years old. The Koreans them selves explain this by deteriorating reflexes, this reason is also mentioned in the documentary about Xellos that was made by National Geographic. (I'm not a scientist so I can't know for sure. But thats where I got it from.)
I'm a pianist and i certainly didn't know I needed good reflexes to play... Dexterity and APM are not reflexes.
yeah, pretty much. reflexes aren't apm/finger dexterity. reflexes are used for twitch-based, split second reactionary movements.
if someone could provide statistics for counter-strike champions, and if none won the highest prizes after the age of 23, that would be very significant.
On March 13 2013 11:37 fluidin wrote: yeah, pretty much. reflexes aren't apm/finger dexterity. reflexes are used for twitch-based, split second reactionary movements.
if someone could provide statistics for counter-strike champions, and if none won the highest prizes after the age of 23, that would be very significant.
I imagine it would be quite similar to the fighting game genre, but I'd be happy to see some shock in there.
I remember once hearing a great talk from a friend who talked about good CS players either having great "twitch" or "clue". Twitch being great reflexes to react at an instant. Clue being the ability to predict and strategise even within high pressure environments. Most of the best players have both of these.
Same applies for most games, specifically single player games. A player who has great reaction speed and (as Kerrigan puts it) "vision" is usually at the top. Nestea, in all his championships, I'd argue had great vision. He clearly out-strategised and outplayed his opponents. MC for the most part I'd argue was reaction speed during his championships. Sure they both have some great level in the other I couldn't hope to see, but you could make an argument certain players just specialise in areas better.
Also quick question on this topic: Is Nestea the oldest premier tournament winner for sc2? I know he is for GSL at least but I don't know foreigner ages very well. White-ra I'd guess is older?
EPT
