On March 01 2013 20:24 Savant.GL wrote: You can spout bullshit all you want and tell me your ladder rank but the point is I have seen Polt pull this strategy off many times. Yes you can quote games where the build gets beaten, does that mean the build isn't viable anymore? I have seen partings immortal-sentry all in get beaten, is that no longer a viable build?
Allow me to kindly return your weak argument: I have seen 1-base Battlecruiser win in TvZ, is the build viable for all that?
On March 01 2013 20:10 Savant.GL wrote: furthermore there are plenty of 2 base builds terran can do that blow heavy queen play out of the water
Really? Enlighten us then, write the full list.
Many variations of polt style pushes that involve hellions, marauders and marines
Doesn't work at all. Anything else?
I think polt has proved many times that it works just fine.
It probably doesn't work for you but that is for an entirely different reason
No, it doesn't work at all if Zerg bothers to scout and makes units. Any 1 or 2-bases timing/all-in dies to Overlord scout + Queens and whichever combination of Zerglings/Banelings/Roaches is fit. See Hack vs DRG, Icarus, RO32 or or Mvp vs sLivko, Antiga, IEM Cologne VII for a textbook refutation of your nonsense.
But yeah, being mid-GM for 5 seasons I guess I am completely clueless about my race while you hold the secret Code S Terrans don't even know; whatever.
You can spout bullshit all you want and tell me your ladder rank but the point is I have seen Polt pull this strategy off many times. Yes you can quote games where the build gets beaten, does that mean the build isn't viable anymore? I have seen partings immortal-sentry all in get beaten, is that no longer a viable build?
It worked in a couple of foreign tournaments. Certainly, it could be viable on ladder and, on paper, it's viable for actual tournament play, but it's wrong to expect it to work if Zerg actually bothers to scout.
No sense of complaining now everyone knew another zvz final was highly probably before this season even started based on the amount of zergs and the fact that life and leenock are the gsl's 2 best players. I. Am happy for symbol making it to the finals as he is fun to watch in all matches unlike mediocre zergs like sniper and curious who's success relates to balence issues.
On March 01 2013 20:23 Fionn wrote: Polt's marauder/hellion all-in almost always works. He's beaten DRG with it every single time he's used it. Only person I remember stopping it was Sniper during S5 in the Ro16.
On March 01 2013 20:18 Xpace wrote: GOM is not responsible for in-game balance and patches, but they are responsible for running the best tournaments in the world from the beginning of SC2.
NOT watching the finals because it's a ZvZ will not achieve anything; in fact it only hurts GOM's viewership count. It will not send a message to Blizzard that you're butthurt about Zerg, or you hate the match-up, or whatever reason you may have.
On the other hand, no one is forcing you to watch what you don't want to watch. I certainly am not. But I do support GOM and the GSL, it sucks that their last WoL tournament is ZvZ again.
Thus, I will be "watching" the finals, muted, on another tab, but I will be playing Crysis 3.
):
I'm sure people will watch. Just knowing it's another ZvZ makes people angry.
It's like if you're hungry for dinner, your mom comes home, and cooks the same meal for the 22nd night in a row. You're going to groan, bitch, and be mad for a bit to eat the same shit again for 22nd night, but you'll eventually get hungry, be thankful the food is on the table and eat it.
Or you go to mcdonalds League of Legends and over time you get fat and eventually you die from cardiac arrest. Thank you mom.
Fixed
Same thing different name I suppose ^^
Could replace that with Dota too. I don't really get the LoL hate. Before Dota was popular, Dota was hated on a lot on the WC3 forums (of course it was on battle.net so....).
In any competitive play, as long as one person (or team) can be consistently top (showing that there is a skill ceiling or good skill difference), then there's no need to hate or make fun of IMO.
Edit - I don't really follow the LoL scene but I did hear that there are consistent top teams. Also I don't play or have never played LoL before. Always played Dota (basically since All Stars came out, Guinsoo to Icefrog's version) but never really liked any team games in general (it's the fact that as 1 player, you can't be good enough to win games compared to just 1v1 games).
Edit 2 - Some "nerd cred" - I remember in 5.XX, at one point Guinsoo had a really complicated way of preventing friendly fire (as in WC3, you had to trigger or script ways to prevent friendly fire).
What happened was when you attempted to attack an ally, you'd be polymorphed into a sheep (by a dummy unit).... of course it was replaced by the simpler method of "Unit gets attacked" "Order attacking unit to stop" later >.>. (Though to be fair, maybe the being hexed when attempting to auto attack was just a thing done in the mid versions. I don't remember exactly.)
Edit 3 - Also Soul Rings (after they were removed from the game) was one of the most popular item suggestions on the Dota forums (well Dota-allstars forums at the time, the one ran by Pendragon until Icefrog split into playdota site/forums).
Soul Rings were actually really badass. It was early in Dota All Stars timeline so there wasn't as many items (for example, there were only two types of upgraded boots - Power Treads and Boots of Travel). There wasn't Scout Shields or Quelling Blades or things like Bracers, Null Rings, Wraith Bands items.
Soul Rings were practically the only good early game item back then. Soul Rings used to provide +2 regen +50% mana regen, and +4 to all stats (it was built from ring of regen, sobi mask, and circuit). Yep, no recipe cost like now (back then, recipes either required "Upgraders" for 1500 gold or they didn't require any recipe cost at all; Soul Rings was really cheap and easy to build).
Eventually it was nerfed to +2 stats. And eventually just removed from the game (until popular demand brought it back but as a bit different item).
Edit 4 - Now that was some "cred" from the Guinsoo era. Now for the IceFrog era - Nowadays when he introduces new heroes, they're fairly strong. But back then, it was a mixed case. Spirit Breaker came out strong (for example)... but some heroes like Witch Doctor and Huskar both totally sucked when they came out. Witch Doctor's paralyzing casks did no damage and had less range (for example). Also his death ward (taken from Stealth Assassin which had it before his remake) not only was channeling but could be attacked directly (it had fairly low HP too).
Huskar was just bad (he's ultimate didn't have the "leap" effect it has now, his burning spears had a max cap of 5 and did less damage). (Speaking of that, Huskar was the first ranged strength hero in a long time... after Chen was changed from strength to intelligence hero.)
So yeah, I'm totally a hipster Dota player, there's my cred >.>.
So yes, as even a hipster Dota player, I think the LoL hate is unneeded.
On March 01 2013 20:15 Fionn wrote: I don't think anyone dislikes Roro. The Zerg could have been anyone and people would still be pissed at him because people are fucking sick and tired of ZvZ in WoL. Yes, it's not a bad match-up, and it can have some really fun series, but when we've seen GSL 2012 S4, S5, Iron Squid, MLG Dallas, IPL5, Homestory Cup, other tournaments I'm probably forgetting, and now, to break the camel's back, the LAST WoL Code S tournament, then yeah, people are going to be distraught and have to fight to care.
If you're a Roro fan or a Symbol fan, then it really won't matter much because you simply want your player to win and have a heavy rooting interest. If you're a mild fan of either or have no dog in the fight, then after seeing so much ZvZ the past six months, why should you give a fuck anymore?
On March 01 2013 19:59 Wertheron wrote: OOOOOOOH. Stop it terrans, you were the race the most imba during one year and a half and we had a plenty of TvT finals (and no, it's not better than ZvZ).
The difference is that you expect a game to actually get MORE balanced after 3 years than it was in the beginning. When you end up with this, suffice to say someone bungled at the job.
or people are just butt hurt cause taeja, who everyone(~70%) wanted to see win; now we cry imba...as LR threads usually go
To address your main point, the main reason people wanted taeja to win was to avoid the 1000th anniversary edition of a ZvZ finals in the last year of wol :D
3 ZvZ GSL finals counting this one. 5 TvT finals.
Huh? Liquipedia seems to say 3 Code S TvTs, unless the 2011 Super Tournament counts (I honestly don't remember the details of that tournament, so it may well be 4 TvTs)
Fionn, so smart. MVP vs MKP MVP vs MKP ( world championship) MVP vs TOP MvP vs MMA polt vs MMA ( supertournament)
The thing about the GOMTvT era was while there were five of them, it was pretty much the same four Terrans dominating. If Polt had beaten TOP in the semifinals of August, then all five of those finals would have consisted of the four best Terran, without question, in WoL's lifespan.
You can't make the same case with Hyun, Sniper, Symbol, Roro, Losira, etc.
The other thing to consider is the talent the players have displayed the whole time. Nothing aginst Roro, but he didn't do anything special in the series vs Taeja. I'm not saying it doesn't take a lot of skill and patience to mass units and get the right flanks before A-moving, but it's still A-moving. In the TvT era MKP, polt and Mvp showcased excellent play (maybe it's just the design that simply lacks special micro).
On March 01 2013 19:53 Jankisa wrote: That put aside, RorO was definetlly the better player here, he played amazingly, best creep spread I have seen this expansion, flawless macro and great harass.
Is this a joke?
If you have a replay or a vod for me to see where zerg spread creep this well against this good of an opponent I'd be happy to watch it.
Scarlett vs Ryung and getting it into his 3rd base (While Ryung was in the Ro4 of Code S at that same venue days later)
Come back later and try again.
Ive never seen creep spread quite as insane as Roro was on Daybreak and Cloud kingdom... but I havent seen those Scarlett' games.
This isn't the exact game but this is pretty precise on how the map looked.
I'd still like to see the vod/replay, this game was pretty tense, Taeja was trying to push back creep, also in the first game Roro had insane creep spread, but this time Taeja menaged to clean some of it up. In the game scarlett and ryung played, I can't know if Scarlett did a lot of damage early and forced Ryung to play passive and by that had free reign over the map.
I'm not trying to disrespect scarlett, but this is the GSL semifinal, and while Ryung is a great player, Scarlett has yet to translate her sick creepsread and success in general to a bigger stage. My original thought was that to me, RorO's play in general, and especially his creep spread were one of the best this expansion.
Go to 23:00
Or just look at the mini-map of the video preview, LOL.
The creep spread is pretty damn good... but it seems a bit later than what Roro was just showing, and not as comprehensive. There are bits at the 3rd, but its not full coverage. Pretty cool though!
Edit: its probably because there are about 1/4 of the tumors roro had. There was so many dots around the map it was hard to tell what was army and what was tumors hahaha.
The picture is not from this game. It is from Scarlett vs Bomber in MLG Fall Championship Game 3. For some reason, I cannot direct link MLG page, so it is winner's bracket Round 1 in this page. http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/22-fall-championship#2171/ Bomber applied no pressure to Scarlett in this game. The picture is from the thread I wrote a while back Optimal Creep Spread in Theory if interested.
On March 01 2013 20:24 Savant.GL wrote: You can spout bullshit all you want and tell me your ladder rank but the point is I have seen Polt pull this strategy off many times. Yes you can quote games where the build gets beaten, does that mean the build isn't viable anymore? I have seen partings immortal-sentry all in get beaten, is that no longer a viable build?
Allow me to kindly return your weak argument: I have seen 1-base Battlecruiser win in TvZ, is the build viable for all that?
I think the level of competition that polt goes up against and the fact that polt has made the build work multiple times in recent tournaments proves it is viable. 1 base BC does not have the same track record
I won't watch finals just because nowadays I only watch matches where 3 conditions are true: 1. I like 1 player very much (Roro in this case). 2. I dislike another player to a certain extent (sorry Taeja). 3. The player that I root for has a higher chance of winning.
I have no feelings towards Symbol whatsoever, and with ZvZ you can never calculate who has a higher chance of winning. Therefore, I pass.
On March 01 2013 19:53 Jankisa wrote: That put aside, RorO was definetlly the better player here, he played amazingly, best creep spread I have seen this expansion, flawless macro and great harass.
Is this a joke?
If you have a replay or a vod for me to see where zerg spread creep this well against this good of an opponent I'd be happy to watch it.
Scarlett vs Ryung and getting it into his 3rd base (While Ryung was in the Ro4 of Code S at that same venue days later)
Come back later and try again.
Ive never seen creep spread quite as insane as Roro was on Daybreak and Cloud kingdom... but I havent seen those Scarlett' games.
This isn't the exact game but this is pretty precise on how the map looked.
I'd still like to see the vod/replay, this game was pretty tense, Taeja was trying to push back creep, also in the first game Roro had insane creep spread, but this time Taeja menaged to clean some of it up. In the game scarlett and ryung played, I can't know if Scarlett did a lot of damage early and forced Ryung to play passive and by that had free reign over the map.
I'm not trying to disrespect scarlett, but this is the GSL semifinal, and while Ryung is a great player, Scarlett has yet to translate her sick creepsread and success in general to a bigger stage. My original thought was that to me, RorO's play in general, and especially his creep spread were one of the best this expansion.
Or just look at the mini-map of the video preview, LOL.
The creep spread is pretty damn good... but it seems a bit later than what Roro was just showing, and not as comprehensive. There are bits at the 3rd, but its not full coverage. Pretty cool though!
Edit: its probably because there are about 1/4 of the tumors roro had. There was so many dots around the map it was hard to tell what was army and what was tumors hahaha.
The picture is not from this game. It is from Scarlett vs Bomber in MLG Fall Championship Game 3. For some reason, I cannot direct link MLG page, so it is winner's bracket Round 1 in this page. http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/22-fall-championship#2171/ Bomber applied no pressure to Scarlett in this game. The picture is from the thread I wrote a while back Optimal Creep Spread in Theory if interested.
I'm aware. The picture has no relevance to the video and I was just messing around on google images before I finally found the actual one with Ryung =)
Great thread by the way. Gone through it several times.
On March 01 2013 19:53 Jankisa wrote: That put aside, RorO was definetlly the better player here, he played amazingly, best creep spread I have seen this expansion, flawless macro and great harass.
Is this a joke?
If you have a replay or a vod for me to see where zerg spread creep this well against this good of an opponent I'd be happy to watch it.
Scarlett vs Ryung and getting it into his 3rd base (While Ryung was in the Ro4 of Code S at that same venue days later)
Come back later and try again.
Ive never seen creep spread quite as insane as Roro was on Daybreak and Cloud kingdom... but I havent seen those Scarlett' games.
This isn't the exact game but this is pretty precise on how the map looked.
I'd still like to see the vod/replay, this game was pretty tense, Taeja was trying to push back creep, also in the first game Roro had insane creep spread, but this time Taeja menaged to clean some of it up. In the game scarlett and ryung played, I can't know if Scarlett did a lot of damage early and forced Ryung to play passive and by that had free reign over the map.
I'm not trying to disrespect scarlett, but this is the GSL semifinal, and while Ryung is a great player, Scarlett has yet to translate her sick creepsread and success in general to a bigger stage. My original thought was that to me, RorO's play in general, and especially his creep spread were one of the best this expansion.
Or just look at the mini-map of the video preview, LOL.
The creep spread is pretty damn good... but it seems a bit later than what Roro was just showing, and not as comprehensive. There are bits at the 3rd, but its not full coverage. Pretty cool though!
Edit: its probably because there are about 1/4 of the tumors roro had. There was so many dots around the map it was hard to tell what was army and what was tumors hahaha.
The picture is not from this game. It is from Scarlett vs Bomber in MLG Fall Championship Game 3. For some reason, I cannot direct link MLG page, so it is winner's bracket Round 1 in this page. http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/22-fall-championship#2171/ Bomber applied no pressure to Scarlett in this game. The picture is from the thread I wrote a while back Optimal Creep Spread in Theory if interested.
Thanks! will give it a look now :D I can usually get pretty stupid creep spread on the ladder, but thats because I'm in Plat and rarely build units until I have to. So its drone-drone-drone-your boat, creep spread down the stream.
On March 01 2013 20:18 Xpace wrote: GOM is not responsible for in-game balance and patches, but they are responsible for running the best tournaments in the world from the beginning of SC2.
NOT watching the finals because it's a ZvZ will not achieve anything; in fact it only hurts GOM's viewership count. It will not send a message to Blizzard that you're butthurt about Zerg, or you hate the match-up, or whatever reason you may have.
On the other hand, no one is forcing you to watch what you don't want to watch. I certainly am not. But I do support GOM and the GSL, it sucks that their last WoL tournament is ZvZ again.
Thus, I will be "watching" the finals, muted, on another tab, but I will be playing Crysis 3.
):
I'm sure people will watch. Just knowing it's another ZvZ makes people angry.
It's like if you're hungry for dinner, your mom comes home, and cooks the same meal for the 22nd night in a row. You're going to groan, bitch, and be mad for a bit to eat the same shit again for 22nd night, but you'll eventually get hungry, be thankful the food is on the table and eat it.
Or you go to mcdonalds League of Legends and over time you get fat and eventually you die from cardiac arrest. Thank you mom.
Fixed
Same thing different name I suppose ^^
Could replace that with Dota too. I don't really get the LoL hate. Before Dota was popular, Dota was hated on a lot on the WC3 forums (of course it was on battle.net so....).
In any competitive play, as long as one person (or team) can be consistently top (showing that there is a skill ceiling or good skill difference), then there's no need to hate or make fun of IMO.
It's partially fear of being replaced at events by LoL's higher viewer count, partial jealousy of Riot being much more supportive of it's game than SC2 and partially plain old elitism. I think SC2 is a more competitive game yeah but that doesn't necessarily make it a better game, much like people felt about SC2 vs BW in 2011 (although everyone's forgotten that now).
I still watch some of it because I really really really enjoyed SC2 for a long time but I've honestly been hanging on more out of nostalgia to 2011/early 2012 games than out of actual enjoyment of the games. And no, I don't need a lecture on how ZvZ can be interesting because it just isn't to me.
On March 01 2013 20:23 Fionn wrote: Polt's marauder/hellion all-in almost always works. He's beaten DRG with it every single time he's used it. Only person I remember stopping it was Sniper during S5 in the Ro16.
Polt is like the only one I've seen make hellion/marauder all-in work. Everyone else, it usually fails lol.
On March 01 2013 20:24 Savant.GL wrote: You can spout bullshit all you want and tell me your ladder rank but the point is I have seen Polt pull this strategy off many times. Yes you can quote games where the build gets beaten, does that mean the build isn't viable anymore? I have seen partings immortal-sentry all in get beaten, is that no longer a viable build?
Allow me to kindly return your weak argument: I have seen 1-base Battlecruiser win in TvZ, is the build viable for all that?
I think the level of competition that polt goes up against and the fact that polt has made the build work multiple times in recent tournaments proves it is viable. 1 base BC does not have the same track record
If Polt's build would be viable we would see a lot more of it. It was implemented during a phase where zergs were being blindly greedy and it was designed to punish that. Nowadays it just isn't possible if the zerg plays like a code S player should.
EPT
design that simply lacks special micro). ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RPfIL.png)
