EPTOn August 15 2012 11:23 Dakure wrote:
What part of ZvZ don't you understand?
Openings such as 9pool > hatch first > 14pool > 9pool (not quite sure where 6pool or 6pool+drones go to be honest)?
Or transitions such as roaches, infestors, or mutas?
My naive understanding of ZvZ is once players stabilize to 2 bases, the main choice a player has to make is: mutas or infestors
Mutas:
Now a days, mutas are used for map control as opposed to straight up kill your opponent. 6-12 mutas help clear out overlords, force spores or more queens, and help against a small number of roaches and lings. Rather vulnerable to some roach timings, which why sometimes you see massive spine walls (because roaches with +1 2-shot unupgraded lings and the muta player is trying to save his bank until the spire is finished). Player can keep harassing until infestors are out. Once infestors are out, fungal is quite scary to deal with. Splitting mutas is a decent answer, but still risky. If hydras come out first, the muta player may still feel comfortable finding areas not covered by hydras. As the player establishes 3 bases, he starts making infestors and perhaps roaches or teching to ultras. In the end, even though the muta player may have established his third a little later, he is able to drone harder because of the map control. Drone too hard, however, and the muta player might be caught by surprise by an attack composed of roaches, hydras, and a few infestors when the muta player's main attack force is, well, mutas.
Mutas vs mutas is tricky because teching to something else costs a lot of gas and time, so the player teching is vulnerable. Ling runbys become more important in particular because there are no roaches around and mutas can snipe banes.
Infestors:
Infestors are usually coupled with roaches or lings and spines. It's a more defensive build in terms of attacking your opponent, but the player is able to take the third more aggressively because of the strength of fungal and chokes. Infestor+roach is most common and is usually played like a tug of war against infestor+roach. Hydras are a typical addition to the infestor+roach composition because of their dps, range, and fungal's ability to keep units locked down at a range where hydras can fire at roaches/lings but the lings can't attack the hydras. If the infestor player is facing mutas, hydras tend to be added on earlier. Infestor+ling is less common, and the goal here is to tech to ultras because fungal+ultras is pretty good against roaches, especially with lings to surround. Again, the player is more defensive until the infestor player has a good number of fungals, a massive amount of lings, or some ultras.
Roaches:
All-inning off roaches with two bases is meant to catch Zergs as they're teching and thus not wanting to make units to save their bank. Less common on bigger maps because with good overlord spread, you can react very well as soon as the roaches move out. This can lead to another tug-of-war scenario with both sides pushing each other back.
Not really sure if that was helpful at all, but that's a brief overview of ZvZ I guess. As to build order wins, I think that has to do more with early pools and fast hatches. Often times it's a meta-game thing because if one player goes 15 hatch and another 6pool, there's really no way the 15 hatch player can have lings or a spine up by the time lings (and maybe drones) are at his base. It's just timing. You want to make as many drones as possible while still being safe, etc.
What part of ZvZ don't you understand?
Openings such as 9pool > hatch first > 14pool > 9pool (not quite sure where 6pool or 6pool+drones go to be honest)?
Or transitions such as roaches, infestors, or mutas?
My naive understanding of ZvZ is once players stabilize to 2 bases, the main choice a player has to make is: mutas or infestors
Mutas:
Now a days, mutas are used for map control as opposed to straight up kill your opponent. 6-12 mutas help clear out overlords, force spores or more queens, and help against a small number of roaches and lings. Rather vulnerable to some roach timings, which why sometimes you see massive spine walls (because roaches with +1 2-shot unupgraded lings and the muta player is trying to save his bank until the spire is finished). Player can keep harassing until infestors are out. Once infestors are out, fungal is quite scary to deal with. Splitting mutas is a decent answer, but still risky. If hydras come out first, the muta player may still feel comfortable finding areas not covered by hydras. As the player establishes 3 bases, he starts making infestors and perhaps roaches or teching to ultras. In the end, even though the muta player may have established his third a little later, he is able to drone harder because of the map control. Drone too hard, however, and the muta player might be caught by surprise by an attack composed of roaches, hydras, and a few infestors when the muta player's main attack force is, well, mutas.
Mutas vs mutas is tricky because teching to something else costs a lot of gas and time, so the player teching is vulnerable. Ling runbys become more important in particular because there are no roaches around and mutas can snipe banes.
Infestors:
Infestors are usually coupled with roaches or lings and spines. It's a more defensive build in terms of attacking your opponent, but the player is able to take the third more aggressively because of the strength of fungal and chokes. Infestor+roach is most common and is usually played like a tug of war against infestor+roach. Hydras are a typical addition to the infestor+roach composition because of their dps, range, and fungal's ability to keep units locked down at a range where hydras can fire at roaches/lings but the lings can't attack the hydras. If the infestor player is facing mutas, hydras tend to be added on earlier. Infestor+ling is less common, and the goal here is to tech to ultras because fungal+ultras is pretty good against roaches, especially with lings to surround. Again, the player is more defensive until the infestor player has a good number of fungals, a massive amount of lings, or some ultras.
Roaches:
All-inning off roaches with two bases is meant to catch Zergs as they're teching and thus not wanting to make units to save their bank. Less common on bigger maps because with good overlord spread, you can react very well as soon as the roaches move out. This can lead to another tug-of-war scenario with both sides pushing each other back.
Not really sure if that was helpful at all, but that's a brief overview of ZvZ I guess. As to build order wins, I think that has to do more with early pools and fast hatches. Often times it's a meta-game thing because if one player goes 15 hatch and another 6pool, there's really no way the 15 hatch player can have lings or a spine up by the time lings (and maybe drones) are at his base. It's just timing. You want to make as many drones as possible while still being safe, etc.
Thank you for this!
I sort of get some things in the matchup, but a lot of games have things occur that I don't quite get still. Usually finer things. If they happen I'll ask whilst watching I guess, can't think of specifics.
