On December 07 2011 18:38 NeoLearner wrote:
Nexus first is punished hard by these fast hellions. What econ-build would've/might've worked for HuK? Forge FE or did he need 1 gate core?

a 1 gate expand would have been so much better, he would have had twice as many stalkers out

Rebs

Pakistan10726 Posts

December 07 2011 09:39 GMT

#602

On December 07 2011 18:37 Ranir wrote:

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I hope that you're kiding about the cloak banshee... People have to think whenever they talk about meta game like that. How many times do you think HuK did a nexus first vs Terran just to prepare vs this match? You really think that a build that he practiced sooo much would get hard counter by cloak banshee? Why the hell would he go Nexus first if he knew something so easy as cloak banshee would hard counter it? it obviously doesn't.. you can have a robo and an obs in time. Just think whenever you say stuff about a meta game, these guys play hundred and hundred of games with the same strat.

You are an idiot. I said that his build was tailored to DEFEND against cloak banshees and not hellion pushes. He had the right idea, he obviously hadnt seen the react hellion in practice much, because he wasnt ready for it either time.

The only thing you can fault me for is that I was vague enough to not add "Keen" at the end of the last sentence.

User was temp banned for this post.

namste

Finland2292 Posts

December 07 2011 09:39 GMT

#603

On December 07 2011 18:39 CrumpetGuvnor wrote:

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it was an all in, but reactionary. he punished a greedy opener, who could blame him. his play wasnt cheap, it was smart

Game 1 was an all in, game 2 wasn't.

Asha

United Kingdom38211 Posts

December 07 2011 09:39 GMT

#604

On December 07 2011 18:37 supdubdup wrote:
Was this just one single factory making double hellions?

Yeah, it was just a reactor fact with a rax making marauders + conc shells as far as I could see?

Quotidian

Norway1937 Posts

December 07 2011 09:39 GMT

#605

On December 07 2011 18:34 Bayyne wrote:

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Build order loss, plain and simple.

you're assuming it was coinflippy and that Keen didn't react to scouting Huk's nexus first

Medrea

10003 Posts

December 07 2011 09:40 GMT

#606

Why are people responding to me like I called HuK retarded or Keen cheesy or something >.<

I don't get it I was just saying what happened to some guy for LR's sake.

CrumpetGuvnor

Australia302 Posts

December 07 2011 09:40 GMT

#607

maybe more sentries instead of stalkers would have helped huks build? rely on micro and wait until his 2nd and 3rd gates get up

DrakeFZX3

United States925 Posts

December 07 2011 09:40 GMT

#608

On December 07 2011 18:38 Medrea wrote:

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Im sorry are you asking me this question? I didnt say any player should do anything, at all. I am lost. I was responding to some other guy. Misclick?

No misclick I was indeed talking to you. Just because you don't see an expo does not mean it's an All-in or some sort of 1 base timing attack. Keen saw what Huk was doing and reacted to it. Simple as that.

Bayyne

United States1967 Posts

December 07 2011 09:40 GMT

#609

On December 07 2011 18:38 tztztz wrote:

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no, it was not a build order loss

Taken from Liquipedia:

Build Order Win or Build Order Loss:
When a player wins or loses not from skill or strategy but from a build order which hard counters the opponent's build order.

Do I really need to explain what keen did in those two games to hard counter Huk's opening? Are you really going to argue this? lolol

K3Nyy

United States1961 Posts

December 07 2011 09:40 GMT

#610

On December 07 2011 18:37 ElephantBaby wrote:

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That's not build order loss. 2 rax against nexus first is a build order loss. That's a responsive strategy. Just like in BW, if you see nexus first, pull 3 or 4 scvs and go kill the nexus, it is very standard.

Reactored Hellions vs Nexus first is a BO loss. There's no way to ever keep the probes alive because Stalkers need like 7 or 8 shots to kill a Hellion. You're never going to have enough units to kill the Hellions or MM.

masterbreti

Korea (South)2711 Posts

December 07 2011 09:40 GMT

#611

Huk played really poorly. I think if he has thought about his matches first before just trying to be a greedy toss. he would not have lost so badly.

Ruscour

5233 Posts

December 07 2011 09:40 GMT

#612

I was so disappointed there was no ceremony from Keen...truly a horrible first series for the day. Nexus first so insane on Dual Sight, hell, I don't really feel safe going 1gate expand on that map

IMPrime

United States715 Posts

December 07 2011 09:40 GMT

#613

On December 07 2011 18:37 Lord_J wrote:

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Your opponent seeing your build, reacting to it, and then killing you is not a build order loss.

well, it's more the fact that once the marine pops out, the toss is playing in the dark for a long time. The toss can't really adapt his nexus first build into something else, while the terran can change his plan once he sees the FE.

Still, going nexus first on dual sight is REALLY risky. I believe even a 1gate FE is a decent enough counter to 1/1/1 while doing a little better against various other 1base pushes like 2rax pressure.

Rykros

483 Posts

December 07 2011 09:40 GMT

#614

To all those weak minds who think that was an all in and have no sense of judgement. It wasn't. Keen could transition out of it easily if Huk didnot just die.

NeilSC

114 Posts

December 07 2011 09:40 GMT

#615

Huk biggest problem is not being able to change his build after he scouts. It's like he decides what he wants to do before the game and does it no matter what. We see this all the time in PvP when he wants to 4gate and ends up pretty fucked becaus of it.

figq

12519 Posts

December 07 2011 09:40 GMT

#616

Stupid question, but why didn't they ever show Huk on camera today? Something wrong with him?