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Artisan
Profile Joined February 2010
United States336 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-14 11:33:21
October 14 2010 11:31 GMT
#1501
love hannibleprime's retreat micro kept picking off zealots without even getting hit =D

Edit: well not many =D every time he turned he popped a zealot though
NExt
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia1651 Posts
October 14 2010 11:32 GMT
#1502
On October 14 2010 20:31 Artisan wrote:
love hannibleprime's retreat micro kept picking off zealots without even getting hit =D


he lost marines ?!?!
Waiting for Protoss Jesus
Jehct
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
New Zealand9115 Posts
October 14 2010 11:32 GMT
#1503
choya choking miserably =/ if he somehow wins this I'll be amazed
"You seem to think about this game a lot"
kickazs
Profile Joined May 2010
Norway540 Posts
October 14 2010 11:32 GMT
#1504
hannibal prettyy good, good banshee micro
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-14 11:33:50
October 14 2010 11:32 GMT
#1505
On October 14 2010 20:28 Tevinhead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2010 20:25 Shikyo wrote:
On October 14 2010 20:24 Tevinhead wrote:
On October 14 2010 20:21 Shikyo wrote:
On October 14 2010 20:17 Tevinhead wrote:
On October 14 2010 20:16 yowza wrote:
On October 14 2010 20:09 Tevinhead wrote:
On October 14 2010 20:07 yowza wrote:
Why do people refer to that as cheese, because he used void rays? It was just a timing attack, wasn't a proxied stargate or an all in. If it isn't zealots and stalkers its hurr durr cheese amirite?

Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise.

Minus the 'highly' I think that about sums it up.


Quoting liquipedia?

"In general, cheese is hard to beat if not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted."

He scouted it before the first VR was even out, responded by building addons instead of pumping marines and didn't get enough bunkers up.

"If a build order classified as Cheese fails, the player using it will usually be far behind in the game."

As it was not an all in and it wasn't pure voidrays (he had a sizable groundarmy aswell) he would have caused considerable damage even if he had been forced to retreat so again it doesn't apply here. Not to mention he would have gained map control regardless as the terran would have to turtle up.

"Finally, the usage of the term is often restricted to the victim of the "cheesy" strategy, to play down the opponent's achievement. "

Now that sounds about accurate of this situation.

He scouted it late the voidray was almost complete. And if the rush had been scouted earlier and failed I'm pretty sure the protoss was at a significant disadvantage.

-_- The thing is that the chance to deal damage is so high that there's no real way that ITR could easily have defended it even after scouting it without taking any damage and still being in a substantial lead. Do you really call a 1rax 1-marine 2-marauder with concussive an allin because you're behind if you deal no damage and lose all your units? No, because you're 99% guaranteed to deal some damage with okay micro.

I'm not calling anything 'allin'. I'm calling it cheese. If rainbow had better scout timing he could have seen the stargate building and build ample marines to make it a lot less effective. He was pretty much caught with his pants down. Although as already mentioned it was probably a bad decision to go reactor on barracks once he spotted it.

By calling something a cheese, you're calling it an allin. Please learn the terms before arguing.

Argue more than semantics before pressing 'post'. It was my understanding that 'Cheese' more specifically defines play that is unorthodox and unexpected whereas 'Allin' refers to any play that looks to end the game right there be it at the beginning or mid game with SCVs for example.

Either way, I'll agree to disagree because there's a new match on and I don't want to spam this topic arguing with you. =)..


Cheese - because of negative the connotation - is often used to describe unorthodox play that is inherently weak upon scouting, and often will die without the all-in. Otherwise, if you aren't set back because of the attack, then it was just a timing attack of sorts.

@Choya - Sending that second observer in doesn't really do that much =p
Yargh
Kokujin
Profile Joined July 2010
United States456 Posts
October 14 2010 11:32 GMT
#1506
roffles was streaming earlier but he crashed or lost power. ive taken up his torch of piracy at [am i allowed to post this?] http://www.livestream.com/kokujin
(only for those of you who cant get gom player to work-otherwise please support gom and use their player)
pyro19
Profile Joined August 2010
6575 Posts
October 14 2010 11:34 GMT
#1507
On October 14 2010 20:32 Kokujin wrote:
roffles was streaming earlier but he crashed or lost power. ive taken up his torch of piracy at [am i allowed to post this?] http://www.livestream.com/kokujin
(only for those of you who cant get gom player to work-otherwise please support gom and use their player)


Thanks man , you"re a lifesaver
Thy Shall Die Alone...or emm..something like that.
Mascherano
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Argentina1726 Posts
October 14 2010 11:34 GMT
#1508
This is where you can say somebody got outplayed.
Choya got spanked.
Bisu
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2338 Posts
October 14 2010 11:34 GMT
#1509
On October 14 2010 20:32 Kokujin wrote:
roffles was streaming earlier but he crashed or lost power. ive taken up his torch of piracy at [am i allowed to post this?] http://www.livestream.com/kokujin
(only for those of you who cant get gom player to work-otherwise please support gom and use their player)


unfortunately no, you're not. especially after you mentioned it was piracy to begin with
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
October 14 2010 11:35 GMT
#1510
whoa what happened i just took a trip to the kitchen to grab some utensils and it was alll over
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
Nu11
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada167 Posts
October 14 2010 11:35 GMT
#1511
On October 14 2010 20:34 Mascherano wrote:
This is where you can say somebody got outplayed.
Choya got spanked.


I love rainbow but he was just as outplayed as choya was here.

I wish people would stop trying to degrade the validity of the other players win vs. rainbow..
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-14 11:36:13
October 14 2010 11:35 GMT
#1512
On October 14 2010 20:28 Tevinhead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2010 20:25 Shikyo wrote:
On October 14 2010 20:24 Tevinhead wrote:
On October 14 2010 20:21 Shikyo wrote:
On October 14 2010 20:17 Tevinhead wrote:
On October 14 2010 20:16 yowza wrote:
On October 14 2010 20:09 Tevinhead wrote:
On October 14 2010 20:07 yowza wrote:
Why do people refer to that as cheese, because he used void rays? It was just a timing attack, wasn't a proxied stargate or an all in. If it isn't zealots and stalkers its hurr durr cheese amirite?

Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise.

Minus the 'highly' I think that about sums it up.


Quoting liquipedia?

"In general, cheese is hard to beat if not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted."

He scouted it before the first VR was even out, responded by building addons instead of pumping marines and didn't get enough bunkers up.

"If a build order classified as Cheese fails, the player using it will usually be far behind in the game."

As it was not an all in and it wasn't pure voidrays (he had a sizable groundarmy aswell) he would have caused considerable damage even if he had been forced to retreat so again it doesn't apply here. Not to mention he would have gained map control regardless as the terran would have to turtle up.

"Finally, the usage of the term is often restricted to the victim of the "cheesy" strategy, to play down the opponent's achievement. "

Now that sounds about accurate of this situation.

He scouted it late the voidray was almost complete. And if the rush had been scouted earlier and failed I'm pretty sure the protoss was at a significant disadvantage.

-_- The thing is that the chance to deal damage is so high that there's no real way that ITR could easily have defended it even after scouting it without taking any damage and still being in a substantial lead. Do you really call a 1rax 1-marine 2-marauder with concussive an allin because you're behind if you deal no damage and lose all your units? No, because you're 99% guaranteed to deal some damage with okay micro.

I'm not calling anything 'allin'. I'm calling it cheese. If rainbow had better scout timing he could have seen the stargate building and build ample marines to make it a lot less effective. He was pretty much caught with his pants down. Although as already mentioned it was probably a bad decision to go reactor on barracks once he spotted it.

By calling something a cheese, you're calling it an allin. Please learn the terms before arguing.

Argue more than semantics before pressing 'post'. It was my understanding that 'Cheese' more specifically defines play that is unorthodox and unexpected whereas 'Allin' refers to any play that looks to end the game right there be it at the beginning or mid game with SCVs for example.

Either way, I'll agree to disagree because there's a new match on and I don't want to spam this topic arguing with you. =)..

Argue about more than sementics when you're arguing about nothing but sementics the entire time? What is your major malfunction?



BTW Hannibal played really well.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
bokeevboke
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Singapore1674 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-14 11:38:54
October 14 2010 11:36 GMT
#1513
Those banshee's have so much DPS, range, cloak and decent speed.

Good play by hannibal

Edit: Cheese or not cheese. I don't understand one thing, why building cloaked banshees is a standard strategy while DTs are cheese/allin?
Its grack
susySquark
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1692 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-14 11:41:49
October 14 2010 11:40 GMT
#1514
On October 14 2010 20:36 bokeevboke wrote:
Those banshee's have so much DPS, range, cloak and decent speed.

Good play by hannibal

Edit: Cheese or not cheese. I don't understand one thing, why building cloaked banshees is a standard strategy while DTs are cheese/allin?



Because banshees are safe. Imagine if you could transition out of DT's into something like ravens without having to build any new structures.

DT's are a dead end for tech. Even if you dont want ravens, you can just swap your techlab over to something else and start making medivacs or vikings.
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
October 14 2010 11:40 GMT
#1515
On October 14 2010 20:36 bokeevboke wrote:
Those banshee's have so much DPS, range, cloak and decent speed.

Good play by hannibal

Edit: Cheese or not cheese. I don't understand one thing, why building cloaked banshees is a standard strategy while DTs are cheese/allin?


Depends on the timing of the DTs, but generally banshees can get away a lot easier than DTs.
Yargh
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-14 11:43:23
October 14 2010 11:43 GMT
#1516
Now here is what we call cheese! Hannibal going for proxy rax!
Yargh
NExt
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia1651 Posts
October 14 2010 11:43 GMT
#1517
tooo much cheese tonight........
Waiting for Protoss Jesus
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
October 14 2010 11:44 GMT
#1518
On October 14 2010 20:36 bokeevboke wrote:
Those banshee's have so much DPS, range, cloak and decent speed.

Good play by hannibal

Edit: Cheese or not cheese. I don't understand one thing, why building cloaked banshees is a standard strategy while DTs are cheese/allin?

I guess it's because it's not exactly the same, banshees are harassing workers while void rays are destroying the whole fucking base.

Anyway rainbow made mistakes (should have focused the VR whith his bunker, should not have made that reactor and build a 2nd bunker earlier instead)
But blaming his scouting is not fair, he couldn't scout the front and had a great reaper scout. Blaming his scouting althought he scouted as soon as humanly possible isn't fair.
beetlelisk
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Poland2276 Posts
October 14 2010 11:44 GMT
#1519
That scv was so close to scout that hidden DT tech (Dark Obelisk?), hidden at the edge of another nat.
If only P would wait longer and get more Dts instead of attacking a depot

That game was so sweet. Pulling all of P forces including all Stalkers to sneak a cloaked Banshee in AND kill all of the zeals. And then keeping P in his base for good with 2 Banshees, keeping them both alive till the end of game.

Current game: TvT proxy rax fails
wwww
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
October 14 2010 11:44 GMT
#1520
Cheese has been countered with hamburgers!

Nice scouting by STX
Yargh
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