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On May 22 2010 00:06 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:04 Bane_ wrote:On May 22 2010 00:00 Azarkon wrote:On May 21 2010 23:51 Bane_ wrote:
You can't really say that though because xiaOt beat him... Yes he did, but he was beaten by Maka, whereas Anypro won against Maka. This is before any tiebreakers. Imagine that Nazgul wasn't part of the tournament. Then we can see that it's basically a three-way 1-1. Maka beat Xiaot but lost to Anypro. Anypro beat Maka but lost to Xiaot. Xiaot beat Anypro but lost to Maka. In a contest of pure skill, there's no reason why Anypro should be out simply because he lost to Maka in the tiebreakers, unless Xiaot either beat him again or beat Maka. As it is, Anypro got eliminated by a random number generator. Skill-wise, his TvP was clearly better than Xiaot's, though his PvP appears weaker since he lost to Xiaot and cheesed Nazgul for the win. Still, I don't think any pro-gamer would've been satisfied with an auto-lose due to rolling the lowest number. It wasn't an auto lose since if he had beaten Maka again in game 1 of the tie-break, he was guaranteed to progress to the round of 16. No doubt it's not an ideal system but I'm not entirely sure what would be. Right, and this is where the system really breaks down because had Maka known about this - and I'm pretty sure he didn't if he said "fraud" - he would've had great incentive to drop the game to Anypro and then win against Xiaot - a feat he is easily capable of - to get his teammate into the Ro16. It's just very open to abuse, and I think they should've played another set of games and then did a dice roll if it still wasn't clear. Of course the dice roll would have to be verified somehow, but I think that's not too hard if you use a third-party website.
If Maka drop the game to anypro, he will not play Xiaot, Anypro will play Xiaot.
Then, his fate is not in his own hand.
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Am I right in thinking I heard Forsti say at one point that they would start half an hour earlier for the first group tomorrow? Maybe I was hearing things as he was just saying the normal time again by the end of his stream.
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On May 22 2010 00:16 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:06 Azarkon wrote:On May 22 2010 00:04 Bane_ wrote:On May 22 2010 00:00 Azarkon wrote:On May 21 2010 23:51 Bane_ wrote:
You can't really say that though because xiaOt beat him... Yes he did, but he was beaten by Maka, whereas Anypro won against Maka. This is before any tiebreakers. Imagine that Nazgul wasn't part of the tournament. Then we can see that it's basically a three-way 1-1. Maka beat Xiaot but lost to Anypro. Anypro beat Maka but lost to Xiaot. Xiaot beat Anypro but lost to Maka. In a contest of pure skill, there's no reason why Anypro should be out simply because he lost to Maka in the tiebreakers, unless Xiaot either beat him again or beat Maka. As it is, Anypro got eliminated by a random number generator. Skill-wise, his TvP was clearly better than Xiaot's, though his PvP appears weaker since he lost to Xiaot and cheesed Nazgul for the win. Still, I don't think any pro-gamer would've been satisfied with an auto-lose due to rolling the lowest number. It wasn't an auto lose since if he had beaten Maka again in game 1 of the tie-break, he was guaranteed to progress to the round of 16. No doubt it's not an ideal system but I'm not entirely sure what would be. Right, and this is where the system really breaks down because had Maka known about this - and I'm pretty sure he didn't if he said "fraud" - he would've had great incentive to drop the game to Anypro and then win against Xiaot - a feat he is easily capable of - to get his teammate into the Ro16. It's just very open to abuse, and I think they should've played another set of games and then did a dice roll if it still wasn't clear. Of course the dice roll would have to be verified somehow, but I think that's not too hard if you use a third-party website. If Maka drop the game to anypro, he will not play Xiaot, Anypro will play Xiaot. Then, his fate is not in his own hand.
I see. Well, from a personal point of view Maka would not have wanted to drop the game in that case, but from a team point of view it would've given Anypro a second chance, whereas in the event that Maka won (which he did), Anypro is automatically out and the last match doesn't even really matter except for determining who's first and who's second.
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On May 21 2010 23:11 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 23:09 skypacer wrote:
Roll result:
Maka 39
Anypro 19
XiaoT a bigger num.(forget what the number is)
So, xiaoT is the seed, and one of the two koreans will be eliminated.
Could someone explain how this works again? I didn't really follow it last time with the tiebreakers.
I can explain a bit on the rolling rules here:
If in normal games player A, B and C winning against each other as: A > B > C > A, so they gonna have a roll in the order of tiers: A gets the first number, B second and C thrid.
Now suppose the number is A lowest, B Highest, ans C midium, therefore A vs C in the first additional game.
If A > C, A and B will advance because B > C in the normal rotation.
A and B will fight for the 1st place.
If C > A, then C will advance, but A is not out yet.
The result will depend on the next game:
If C > B then A and C will advance because A > B in the normal rotation, and C is 1st place.
If B > C then B and C will advance, and B is 1st.
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On May 22 2010 00:06 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:04 Bane_ wrote:On May 22 2010 00:00 Azarkon wrote:On May 21 2010 23:51 Bane_ wrote:
You can't really say that though because xiaOt beat him... Yes he did, but he was beaten by Maka, whereas Anypro won against Maka. This is before any tiebreakers. Imagine that Nazgul wasn't part of the tournament. Then we can see that it's basically a three-way 1-1. Maka beat Xiaot but lost to Anypro. Anypro beat Maka but lost to Xiaot. Xiaot beat Anypro but lost to Maka. In a contest of pure skill, there's no reason why Anypro should be out simply because he lost to Maka in the tiebreakers, unless Xiaot either beat him again or beat Maka. As it is, Anypro got eliminated by a random number generator. Skill-wise, his TvP was clearly better than Xiaot's, though his PvP appears weaker since he lost to Xiaot and cheesed Nazgul for the win. Still, I don't think any pro-gamer would've been satisfied with an auto-lose due to rolling the lowest number. It wasn't an auto lose since if he had beaten Maka again in game 1 of the tie-break, he was guaranteed to progress to the round of 16. No doubt it's not an ideal system but I'm not entirely sure what would be. Right, and this is where the system really breaks down because had Maka known about this -and I'm pretty sure he didn't if he said "fraud" - he would've had great incentive to drop the game to Anypro and then win against Xiaot - a feat he is easily capable of - to get his teammate into the Ro16. It's just very open to abuse.
Seems like you are strongly expecting that result huh?
Let me tell you something, the only "equity rule" for the tie-breaker is to have the 3 players go against each other in the overtime till one of them has a consecutive win, the winner will advance, and then the remaininig two will have another game to decide whoelse advances, just as OSL, but this can be endless. Let me guess, you will say Maka can easily crush xiaoT, so the result will come out soon, using your theory: Maka said "Fraud",then he keep losing to anypro until anypro has a win against xiaoT so that anypro will advance with 1st place,and then he get rid of xiaoT and take the second place, is it fare enough for you now?
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On May 22 2010 00:12 Prodtoss wrote:
XiaOt is the third player after Sen and White-Ra who can beat a Korean player in this tourney. He deserved advance in my opinion
From a "foreigners vs. Koreans" point of view (and trust me, this community is very familiar with this point of view), yes, I agree. But from a gamesmanship point of view, the player that should advance is the player with the greatest skill, and in this case a dice was substituted for a contest of skill. So it was suboptimal.
Not that I don't understand the decision to limit it to two games - time constraints are time constraints - but the random nature of the decider leaves more to doubt than to certainty, and that takes away from the players' sense of justice. In this case it might've just been better to either play three more games and then roll the dice (more certainty), or just roll the dice then and there (less time and emotional complication for the teammates).
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On May 22 2010 00:16 Bane_ wrote:
Am I right in thinking I heard Forsti say at one point that they would start half an hour earlier for the first group tomorrow? Maybe I was hearing things as he was just saying the normal time again by the end of his stream.
i talked about star league ! it isnt at 15:00 CET but at 14:30 CET !
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On May 22 2010 00:24 Turbotitan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:06 Azarkon wrote:On May 22 2010 00:04 Bane_ wrote:On May 22 2010 00:00 Azarkon wrote:On May 21 2010 23:51 Bane_ wrote:
You can't really say that though because xiaOt beat him... Yes he did, but he was beaten by Maka, whereas Anypro won against Maka. This is before any tiebreakers. Imagine that Nazgul wasn't part of the tournament. Then we can see that it's basically a three-way 1-1. Maka beat Xiaot but lost to Anypro. Anypro beat Maka but lost to Xiaot. Xiaot beat Anypro but lost to Maka. In a contest of pure skill, there's no reason why Anypro should be out simply because he lost to Maka in the tiebreakers, unless Xiaot either beat him again or beat Maka. As it is, Anypro got eliminated by a random number generator. Skill-wise, his TvP was clearly better than Xiaot's, though his PvP appears weaker since he lost to Xiaot and cheesed Nazgul for the win. Still, I don't think any pro-gamer would've been satisfied with an auto-lose due to rolling the lowest number. It wasn't an auto lose since if he had beaten Maka again in game 1 of the tie-break, he was guaranteed to progress to the round of 16. No doubt it's not an ideal system but I'm not entirely sure what would be. Right, and this is where the system really breaks down because had Maka known about this -and I'm pretty sure he didn't if he said "fraud" - he would've had great incentive to drop the game to Anypro and then win against Xiaot - a feat he is easily capable of - to get his teammate into the Ro16. It's just very open to abuse. Seems like you are strongly expecting that result huh? Let me tell you something, the only "equity rule" for the tie-breaker is to have the 3 players go against each other in the overtime till one of them has a consecutive win, the winner will advance, and then the remaininig two will have another game to decide whoelse advances, just as OSL, but this can be endless. Let me guess, you will say Maka can easily crush xiaoT, so the result will come out soon, then using your theory: Maka said "Fraud",then he keep losing to anypro until anypro has a win against xiaoT so that anypro will advance with 1st place,and then he get rid of xiaoT and take the second place, is it fare enough for you now?
Well my understanding there was flawed to begin with, so it doesn't really count. But yeah, I would expect that Maka would have great incentives to drop the game to Anypro if it meant that his teammate had a chance to advance. Whether he does so depends on how good of a sportsman he is, naturally. It would've simplified matters to simply have each of them roll on a neutral website and the two highest advances. Or play three more games and then roll the dice if it's still tied. Both are preferable to this current method, imo.
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On May 22 2010 00:24 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:12 Prodtoss wrote:
XiaOt is the third player after Sen and White-Ra who can beat a Korean player in this tourney. He deserved advance in my opinion From a "foreigners vs. Koreans" point of view (and trust me, this community is very familiar with this point of view), yes, I agree. But from a gamesmanship point of view, the player that should advance is the player with the greatest skill, and in this case a dice was substituted for a contest of skill. So it was suboptimal. Not that I don't understand the decision to limit it to two games - time constraints are time constraints - but the random nature of the decider leaves more to doubt than to certainty, and that takes away from the players' sense of justice. In this case it might've just been better to either play three more games and then roll the dice (more certainty), or just roll the dice then and there (less time and emotional complication for the teammates).
Well,suppose that Brazil and North Korea get same point and same goal difference in real world cup.
FIFA must let Brazil advance.LOL
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On May 22 2010 00:24 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:12 Prodtoss wrote:
XiaOt is the third player after Sen and White-Ra who can beat a Korean player in this tourney. He deserved advance in my opinion From a "foreigners vs. Koreans" point of view (and trust me, this community is very familiar with this point of view), yes, I agree. But from a gamesmanship point of view, the player that should advance is the player with the greatest skill, and in this case a dice was substituted for a contest of skill. So it was suboptimal. Not that I don't understand the decision to limit it to two games - time constraints are time constraints - but the random nature of the decider leaves more to doubt than to certainty, and that takes away from the players' sense of justice. In this case it might've just been better to either play three more games and then roll the dice (more certainty), or just roll the dice then and there (less time and emotional complication for the teammates).
Play more game takes more time for both the players and watchers who stay up at night in China and Korea. Just roll the dice is pure of luck. so they make the balance of both.
And the Beta ends at the end of May so they want to finish the tournement before that.
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On May 22 2010 00:28 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:24 Turbotitan wrote:On May 22 2010 00:06 Azarkon wrote:On May 22 2010 00:04 Bane_ wrote:On May 22 2010 00:00 Azarkon wrote:On May 21 2010 23:51 Bane_ wrote:
You can't really say that though because xiaOt beat him... Yes he did, but he was beaten by Maka, whereas Anypro won against Maka. This is before any tiebreakers. Imagine that Nazgul wasn't part of the tournament. Then we can see that it's basically a three-way 1-1. Maka beat Xiaot but lost to Anypro. Anypro beat Maka but lost to Xiaot. Xiaot beat Anypro but lost to Maka. In a contest of pure skill, there's no reason why Anypro should be out simply because he lost to Maka in the tiebreakers, unless Xiaot either beat him again or beat Maka. As it is, Anypro got eliminated by a random number generator. Skill-wise, his TvP was clearly better than Xiaot's, though his PvP appears weaker since he lost to Xiaot and cheesed Nazgul for the win. Still, I don't think any pro-gamer would've been satisfied with an auto-lose due to rolling the lowest number. It wasn't an auto lose since if he had beaten Maka again in game 1 of the tie-break, he was guaranteed to progress to the round of 16. No doubt it's not an ideal system but I'm not entirely sure what would be. Right, and this is where the system really breaks down because had Maka known about this -and I'm pretty sure he didn't if he said "fraud" - he would've had great incentive to drop the game to Anypro and then win against Xiaot - a feat he is easily capable of - to get his teammate into the Ro16. It's just very open to abuse. Seems like you are strongly expecting that result huh? Let me tell you something, the only "equity rule" for the tie-breaker is to have the 3 players go against each other in the overtime till one of them has a consecutive win, the winner will advance, and then the remaininig two will have another game to decide whoelse advances, just as OSL, but this can be endless. Let me guess, you will say Maka can easily crush xiaoT, so the result will come out soon, then using your theory: Maka said "Fraud",then he keep losing to anypro until anypro has a win against xiaoT so that anypro will advance with 1st place,and then he get rid of xiaoT and take the second place, is it fare enough for you now? Well my understanding there was flawed to begin with, so it doesn't really count. But yeah, I would expect that Maka would have great incentives to drop the game to Anypro if it meant that his teammate had a chance to advance. Whether he does so depends on how good of a sportsman he is, naturally. It would've simplified matters to simply have each of them roll on a neutral website and the two highest advances. Or play three more games and then roll the dice if it's still tied. Both are preferable to this current method, imo.
Nice suggestion,i will translate this to their forum.
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On May 22 2010 00:27 Forsti.henning wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:16 Bane_ wrote:
Am I right in thinking I heard Forsti say at one point that they would start half an hour earlier for the first group tomorrow? Maybe I was hearing things as he was just saying the normal time again by the end of his stream. i talked about star league ! it isnt at 15:00 CET but at 14:30 CET !
I see thanks! I missed the first part so I assumed you were talking about these world cup matches.
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On May 22 2010 00:43 Bane_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:27 Forsti.henning wrote:On May 22 2010 00:16 Bane_ wrote:
Am I right in thinking I heard Forsti say at one point that they would start half an hour earlier for the first group tomorrow? Maybe I was hearing things as he was just saying the normal time again by the end of his stream. i talked about star league ! it isnt at 15:00 CET but at 14:30 CET ! I see thanks! I missed the first part so I assumed you were talking about these world cup matches.
I find that the 178 star league Asian vs Europe will start at 21:00GMT+ from SC2.178.com.
how could TLO do both 173 world cup and 178 star league at the same moment?
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On May 22 2010 01:02 Prodtoss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:43 Bane_ wrote:On May 22 2010 00:27 Forsti.henning wrote:On May 22 2010 00:16 Bane_ wrote:
Am I right in thinking I heard Forsti say at one point that they would start half an hour earlier for the first group tomorrow? Maybe I was hearing things as he was just saying the normal time again by the end of his stream. i talked about star league ! it isnt at 15:00 CET but at 14:30 CET ! I see thanks! I missed the first part so I assumed you were talking about these world cup matches. I find that the 178 star league Asian vs Europe will start at 21:00GMT+ from SC2.178.com. how could TLO do both 173 world cup and 178 star league at the same moment?
Good question...as talented as he is I'm not sure he has mastered playing multiple matches at the same time. :o
I can only guess that they would change the schedule and play the HayprO vs Maka games first if he is still busy with the 17173 world cup.
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any chance to get reps or vods from today? prolly later right?
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On May 22 2010 01:58 PredY wrote:
any chance to get reps or vods from today? prolly later right?
At some point in the past hour or so they put all of the group 5 ones up and 3 of the group 6, so I've linked them in the first post as usual.
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Maka vs. Nazgul.
I thought Naz was gonna take it. He was powering workers harder, had his expo up and running but damn, Maka pushed in with so much less units but very confidently. Kept dropping and harassing. The guy is fearless with his medivacs.
And that last battle, dropping 4 auto turrets and letting those EMPs off. That was very well played.
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On May 22 2010 03:22 Bane_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 01:58 PredY wrote:
any chance to get reps or vods from today? prolly later right? At some point in the past hour or so they put all of the group 5 ones up and 3 of the group 6, so I've linked them in the first post as usual.
thanks
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16 more hours before TLO...
he is playing against 3 terrans. no TvZ for TLO 
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EPT
