EPTGG WP #1: Stork vs Flash - Page 2
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 01 2014 08:56 tskarzyn wrote: P.S. lol at the "mind games" of stork. I guarantee you he was planning that all in from the beginning of the game. Expand, hide a bunch of gateways, all in with stalkers. Mind games! ...Did you even read the write up? Yes, of course he was planning it from the beginning of the game. Duh. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
"...That thing is decision making. Not all games are going to go on one script or go as planned. The ability to make the right decisions on the fly is absolutely crucial at the higher leagues. When everyone macroes as good as you and everyone can scout and micro as good as you, decision making makes you stand out." The decision making of Stork in this game was arbitrary. He could have picked any all in, and as long as he blocks the reaper with his MSC/stalker Flash is the one that has to scout and make decisions. I have no idea what was so spectacular about Stork's play this game, other than the fact that he horribly mismanaged his gas and his macro in general was far below what you would expect from a top tier player. All this game showed is that no matter how bad you are, if the Terran is unable to scout your all in you have a decent chance at winning. | ||
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Jer99
Canada8160 Posts
I don't know why you're hating so much, just enjoy the content | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
Flash definitely knew something was amiss, but because of the excellent scout denial, Stork came out the winner. A lot of people feel that Protoss doesn't need to scout, but sometimes its better to deny your opponent's scout and rely on a well timed pressure attack. Now I know Flash could have done numerous other things to survive Stork's pressure, but he had no indication the pressure was going to start so early. Stork played incredibly well; Flash succumbed to lack of information. | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On March 01 2014 09:18 tskarzyn wrote: Yes, and I thought the write up was completely unnecessary. "...That thing is decision making. Not all games are going to go on one script or go as planned. The ability to make the right decisions on the fly is absolutely crucial at the higher leagues. When everyone macroes as good as you and everyone can scout and micro as good as you, decision making makes you stand out." The decision making of Stork in this game was arbitrary. He could have picked any all in, and as long as he blocks the reaper with his MSC/stalker Flash is the one that has to scout and make decisions. I have no idea what was so spectacular about Stork's play this game, other than the fact that he horribly mismanaged his gas and his macro in general was far below what you would expect from a top tier player. All this game showed is that no matter how bad you are, if the Terran is unable to scout your all in you have a decent chance at winning. The entire series is going to be about decision making. I originally thought that Stork had made that attack on the fly but after watching the replay over and over, I realized that this was his plan the whole time. That second paragraph was an introduction to the entire series of "game reports" I would like to do. You could also say that Flash's decision to get a late bunker (which I think was a decision, but it could've been a mistake) was something that cost him the game. | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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AnonymousSC2
United States189 Posts
On March 01 2014 03:45 AyaaLa wrote: Greedy? No bunker is not greedy its stupidity. Greedy would be if he cut down and rax/units and maked a faster 3 cc.. lol Greedy and stupidity have essentially the same meaning, you are splitting hairs. It IS greedy because it is cutting corners. What you describe is an extreme and unheard of version of greed. Basically, your example is the extreme. Cutting a bunker is a lighter form of greed, but greed nontheless. | ||
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AnonymousSC2
United States189 Posts
On March 01 2014 08:54 tskarzyn wrote: Just lmao at some of the replies. Flash's play is "greedy", "stupid", "disappointing". His win record in SC2 proleague is among the very best, and he is the greatest BW player of all time for a reason. If you try to counter every possible build that has a chance of killing you, you will never have an edge. Flash goes for optimal play based on his reads, and while he occasionally loses silly games to bums like Stork this strategy works out well in the long run. Stork's play was heavily weighted towards builds that do not require an early bunker, so Flash's late bunker was a good decision. Unfortunately SC2, especially sc2 protoss, is designed in such a way that one small error can insta lose games even if your opponent is horrible, and that is what happened this game. Stork rolled the dice and beat a far superior player with an easy to execute all in that was difficult to identify. I disagree. Flash has rarely if ever looked like a top Terran in SC2. Any masters player can point out mistakes in virtually every game he plays, stuff you don't see from other top Terrans. He does not have the same strength in SC2 has he did in BW. Also, you underrate Stork. As you say, if you never take risks, you will never have an edge. Stork took a risk with this build and outright killed Flash in this game. It seems you are a Terran player, and I am too so I feel your pain that Protoss can get very easy wins with easily executed builds, but you are exaggerating the difference in skill between Stork and Flash. Flash has not proven he is a reliable Terran player in SC2. He has moments of brilliance and moments of absolute fail where he looks like another average Terran. While he may have a good proleague record, he has virtually no results in individual leagues, which is a big deal. | ||
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cywinr
Canada173 Posts
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On March 01 2014 12:24 cywinr wrote: This is what Day9 used to do. Now all his dailies are dumbed down with vagueness and generalities. I am pretty analytical myself, but you sir, you are very smart. Please keep this up. Maybe make some videos? I guess if you don't have time to play, you don't have time to make videos. Regardless... great work! Thank you :D I'd love to do videos (and to that extent, casting), but I have a shitty mac and so I can't do any of that  | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9175 Posts
On March 01 2014 10:42 AnonymousSC2 wrote: I disagree. Flash has rarely if ever looked like a top Terran in SC2. Any masters player can point out mistakes in virtually every game he plays, stuff you don't see from other top Terrans. Flash has not proven he is a reliable Terran player in SC2. You're making yourself look stupid. He had the most wins in proleague last season and made a heap of Code S groups of death. A 60% winrate in HotS vs top tier competition and being the ace of the best team in proleague and you don't think he's a top terran? I guess Bbyong is then because he's one of 3 T's in Code S along with all those other deserving players like Myungsik, Pet and Paralyze. | ||
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AnonymousSC2
United States189 Posts
On March 01 2014 14:19 Scarecrow wrote: You're making yourself look stupid. He had the most wins in proleague last season and made a heap of Code S groups of death. A 60% winrate in HotS vs top tier competition and being the ace of the best team in proleague and you don't think he's a top terran? I guess Bbyong is then because he's one of 3 T's in Code S along with all those other deserving players like Myungsik, Pet and Paralyze. You're making yourself look stupid by spouting lies. He did not have the most wins in proleague, since you don't know, Maru and TY had more wins. And BTW Flash road his TvZ which is world class for those wins. I gaurantee if he played TvT and TvP he would be middle of the pack Terran, that's why he can't cut it in individual leagues and tournaments. He's not a top terran because he hasn't won any big tournaments, has done extremely poorly in individual leagues, and has terrible performances frequently. I am not just talking about KR Code S. You want to tell me Flash is better than Polt, Bomber, Taeja, Maru, or even TY? I'm not saying Flash is a bad player, but you think hes top 5 terran in the world? No, he's not until he proves it. BW is irrelevant in a SC2 conversation. Sorry fanboy | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9175 Posts
On March 01 2014 14:48 AnonymousSC2 wrote: You're making yourself look stupid by spouting lies. He did not have the most wins in proleague, since you don't know, Maru and TY had more wins. And BTW Flash road his TvZ which is world class for those wins. I gaurantee if he played TvT and TvP he would be middle of the pack Terran, that's why he can't cut it in individual leagues and tournaments. I am not just talking about KR Code S. You want to tell me Flash is better than Polt, Bomber, Taeja, Maru, or even TY? I'm not saying Flash is a bad player, but you think hes top 5 terran in the world? No, he's not until he proves it. BW is irrelevant in a SC2 conversation. Sorry fanboy Work on your comprehension before calling me a liar. Last season, Flash went 44-21 (in a league stacked with Protoss), TY went 26-26 and Maru didn't play. Considering the length of a season and that he beat out players like Rain and Innovation (at the peak of their powers) for MVP I don't see how you can say he's not reliable after that. He barely enters any individual leagues besides GSL and results in one cutthroat tourney during a period of Terrans struggling isn't enough to say he's inferior to the guys farming foreign WCS and lesser foreigner-filled tourneys. He's regularly picked ahead of Zest and TY for ace matches, for good reason. Even this year he's 3-0 in Ace matches during the worst period for T's since SC2's inception. The coaches know how reliable he is and they don't base their decisions on "oh but he hasn't won an individual tourney." Anyone who's followed him knows his priorities. He prepares and plays for his team first and individual leagues second. | ||
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AnonymousSC2
United States189 Posts
On March 01 2014 17:04 Scarecrow wrote: Work on your comprehension before calling me a liar. Last season, Flash went 44-21 (in a league stacked with Protoss), TY went 26-26 and Maru didn't play. Considering the length of a season and that he beat out players like Rain and Innovation (at the peak of their powers) for MVP I don't see how you can say he's not reliable after that. He barely enters any individual leagues besides GSL and results in one cutthroat tourney during a period of Terrans struggling isn't enough to say he's inferior to the guys farming foreign WCS and lesser foreigner-filled tourneys. He's regularly picked ahead of Zest and TY for ace matches, for good reason. Even this year he's 3-0 in Ace matches during the worst period for T's since SC2's inception. The coaches know how reliable he is and they don't base their decisions on "oh but he hasn't won an individual tourney." Anyone who's followed him knows his priorities. He prepares and plays for his team first and individual leagues second. Very fortunately for Flash he faced a Zerg in all of those ace matches. He gets absolutely thrashed by other terrans, a clear indicator that he is weaker than them, and by most protoss as well, something other top Terrans aren't having an issue with. You seem very biased, let me enlighten you. Both TY and Maru have destroyed protoss in proleague. Polt, at IEM Cologne, put up the most impressive TvP performance of the year, taking out Stardust and Mana easily, Classic, Rain, and nearly HerO in the finals. Flash would have absolutely no chance in such a tournament at the moment. Again, since you lack comprehension skills, I believe Flash is a great terran. But I stand by my belief that he is not currently top 5, in the list I made above. You can even throw other terrans like Innovation, Jjakji, maybe even more that would give Flash a run for his money any day of the week. Honestly, Flash needs to show a lot more strength in TvT before he is elgible for the conversation. And more consistency vs Protoss and not lose to Stork 3 gate pressure and other questionable protoss like Sora who went 2-4 in round 1 and 0-1 and benched so far in Round 2. I love TL posters who come out of the woodwork to insult people and start an argument but I don't mind proving you wrong. Scarecrow is a good name for you. | ||
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sorrowptoss
Canada1431 Posts
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9175 Posts
On March 02 2014 07:21 AnonymousSC2 wrote: Very fortunately for Flash he faced a Zerg in all of those ace matches. He gets absolutely thrashed by other terrans Wow, way too prove me wrong with such hyperbole. Flash is 55% vs T. TY is 45%. In this matchup Flash is getting "thrashed" in he's got a better winrate than Maru vs P (who you describe as destroying Protosses and having no problems). Colorful language aside your argument is largely bullshit. Please support your arguments with terms less subjective than "thrashing" and "destroying" and preferably some stats. On March 02 2014 07:21 AnonymousSC2 wrote: and not lose to Stork 3 gate pressure and other questionable protoss like Sora who went 2-4 in round 1 and 0-1 and benched so far in Round 2. I love TL posters who come out of the woodwork to insult people and start an argument but I don't mind proving you wrong. Scarecrow is a good name for you. How about Bomber losing a Bo3 to Arthur...... Seriously every Terran has ugly losses to Protoss now and again. Stork mindgamed him, it happens. Calling Sora a questionable Protoss just shows how ignorant you are. He's 80% vs T and got silvers in both WCG Korea Qualifiers and the World Finals, holding his own vs guys like Soulkey and Parting. Clearly a scrub -.- I'm hardly coming out of the woodwork, you must be new here. I post regularly and when I see bullshit I'll call people out on it. Flash may or may not be top 5 but at least make your argument objective and fact-based. | ||
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B-rye88
Canada168 Posts
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On March 02 2014 13:34 B-rye88 wrote: Just wanted to post to say I appreciate the content and look forward to more. Thanks :D I plan to do the next article on State's debut in Proleague, so I will write the next one after that game (unless its like a cannon rush or something) ^^ | ||
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phyren
United States1067 Posts
1. Flash lost his original reaper to the msc. I believe this is simply a mistake on flashes part, but it is questionable how much it mattered. As the op pointed out, stork had made an early stalker at the same time as the msc to deny scouting. Flash would have gotten more if he were willing to suicide the original reaper for a later scout, but even then there would be some luck dependence on how far he got and to what areas. As it was, he didn't even see the natural go up. 2. Flash made a second reaper to try to scout. This second reaper suicided in order to see only the natural expansion nexus (not the area around the minerals). This second reaper delays his unit production and infrastructure slightly. More importantly, the second reaper saw most of the natural, but not the important part, that is the 2 gates behind the natural minerals. 3. Most protoss going for this 3 gate before tech build would not place their extra gates behind the natural minerals. Several considerations go into this. The first several buildings usually go into creating a wall at one end of the main base minerals in order to prevent the first reaper from making a loop around them. This was not needed after flash lost his first reaper. The first reaper also usually sees the first few pylons placed, and this allows the terran to know prime positions to be scanned. Again, flash did not get this due to his initial reapers death. This came back to hurt him as his second reaper saw most of the natural, and so he chose to scan the main in order to reveal a greater total area rather than the sliver of ground by the natural minerals. 4. Although stork was not exactly all-in with this build, it is a real investment. Had the defenses been in place for Flash, even if Stork did not choose to use his warp ins, he still would have his tech greatly delayed, making it hard for him to both take a reasonably timed third and deal with the initial medivac timing of flash as well as delaying any potential scouting he could do of Flash's base. This was a cleverl risk that Stork took, and it paid off hugely. | ||
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