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Hello,
I've been using ggtracker for a while, and practicing my macro a lot. Lately, I've been loosing many times to opponents with inferior macros. The reasons are often obvious - I lose to invisible units, or my collosi get killed off position.
On that last game though, I'm not sure of what happened
http://ggtracker.com/matches/3573462
I lost a PvT this morling. GGtracker says that I had a master spending skill, and a golden saturation speed - master for the 1st and the 3rd base saturation. 73 workers created. My op had 51 workers, 2 bases, and a high bronze SQ.
I started with a simple plan in mind. Gatway FE, then grab a third, build collosi and eventually switch to HT. I started to play according to my plan. My scouting revealed a few units and a second base, so I built some on my side and then...
Then he came with a 2 bases bio / steam / +1+1. My collosi weren't up yet, and I just died.
If I should explain my mistakes, I would say :
- very low/no sentry, therefore I was unable to delay the push
- My first colossus came a bit late
- I started the nexus-canon thing too late
But still, I'm not sure of what I could improve.
Could you advice me where I should focus my attention on, based on that game ?
Thx !
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Alright, I'll start with the good parts, which I think are really good for an improving player.
You aggressively expand and probe. This is a really good fundamental trait to have.
You have a proxy pylon and an observer on the map. You could have more observers. I feel as though you would be very vulnerable to drop harass that would happen in higher leagues.
Your building of pylons is also very good!
All of these things are very fundamental things that needs to be mastered to play at Master's level.
Bad things:
1. Mentality.
But still, I'm not sure of what I could improve.
Realise that there are a ton of things you can improve on. Even the smallest things can have a huge impact when added together. I like to improve on my smaller and earlier mistakes, because it bolsters my fundamentals. Having a strong late-game isn't as important as having a strong early-game that sets you up for the midgame.
The list of things you have are the mistakes you did in the battle, but many times the battle is already lost before it begins, so you should focus on things before.
2. Early mistakes.
You let your cybernetics core, which already was late because of Gate-Nexus-Core build, stay idle for about 75 seconds before researching Warp-Gate. Warp-Gate is your crack, you need it quickly and if your core is delayed as it is in your build, you should really chronoboost it as quickly as possible.
On 7:00 you start pooling gas. This is your sentry gas. At around 7:30 you add the robo, but you still have around 400 gas. Forge gets added on 7:45, which isn't too necessarily too late on your level, but you need to compensate for later upgrades by having a much larger army. Modern HotS builds usually adds Forge around 6-6:30 min.
You leave your forge idle for about half a minute. You have the resources to not have it for that long. Robotics bay for colossus should be added much quicker. You finished Robo facility at 8:30, but don't add robotics bay before 9:45.
3. Comment on Macro.
Macro is very important and is really the first essential basis ingredient for any higher level play. But Starcraft is very holistic, so you can't really rely on only Macro to win you games. If you don't make an effort in understanding the game, you'll get punished like you did in this game. Never think that you are entitled to the win just because you have better macro. Being the better player is not the same as being the winning player!
From 6 minutes through 12 minutes, you are pooling a lot of resources. Somtimes 800/800. This is the crucial time in a PvT, especially minutes 6 through 9. The macro decisions you do here will impact your army count and your ability to survive in a timing where Terran is the strongest, where he has a few medivacs, stim and a big ball of bio. Because you didn't spend your resources efficiently in this specific timing, you are automatically put in a horrible position when he begins to put on aggression.
4. Tech and Army.
Usually there have been two prevailent styles in PvT. One of them cuts units, and relies on rushing colossus and upgrades in order to survive. The other style emphasises a high amount of units and maybe slower tech, it uses various means of aggression in order to force Terran to play defensively, and being unable to harass your worker line.
The general picture that came out of the game for me was that you tried to do both. You had delayed tech, and a small army that could never have survived that attack by itself. This is probably why you lost.
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I hope this was helpful!
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alright, in short:
- sentries: u had 3 of them with a lot of engery: you need to pop guardian shield!
- you need to start warpgate research a lot earlier!
- you take a 3 rd at the 9 minute mark. with only 3 gates, a robo and no tech incoming (u start the robo bay at 10 min) -> this is too greedy (or not greedy enough, coz it is not that early, yet u have almost no units). If u want to defend the inevitable medivac and/or stim push u need either a lot of gates at this time or fewer gates yet earlier splash damage!
- when you scout a 2 base all-in incoming and you are on 3 bases, prioritise units over further workers! You sunk most of ur income in workers (keep an eye of ur saturation between bases 16/mineral line is what u want) and cannons at the 3rd instead of more actual unit production (gates included). you already were a base and 20 workers ahead!
- I am actually not sure if u couldn t have won the battle: with nexus cannon, guardian shield and all ur units attacking at the same time u might have been able to hold, however ur build was utterly unprepared for that push
I recommend taking a closer look at the Protoss Help Me thread there u can get a good idea in which order u should expand/tech/build units
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I am reacting to what was posted here by the 1st three posts.
No one has mentioned that the 2 base +1+1 stim timing with 2 medivacs is actually a very normal and expected timing in PvT on EU. I lose to it all the time as a high plat toss, and as such have changed my build to NOT get as early a 3rd as I normally do, and have had other tweaks to adjust for it.
I think calling a build that beats you "inferior" is a bit harsh, and believing in your own superiority a bit too much, especially as Terran:
1) doesnt need to have as many SCV as you do,
2) Has a very specific timing that as a Toss you need to be able to defend correctly otherwise the game ends (that hits at 10 minutes (or closer to 12 minutes at Gold)
3) has better map presence once medivacs are out than Toss can have (not always solved by obs's everywhere)
My initial reaction from what you said is very simple - if you didn't have colossus out by the time that push hit you, get colossus out earlier. Toss 100% needs tier 3 tech out to deal with that push, if it comes (and it comes a lot more on Ladder than pro games), and its a rite of passage to get to higher levels. It is possible to get the tech out with armour upgrades (sometimes both), and once that push is held is a good time to expand behind it.
Personal experience would recommend ensuring the MSC is out, delaying the 3rd until you feel safe, and playing like that. If you watch pro games frequently, you can also notice a pattern in that PvT has stopped being this epic expand fest and has calmed down into Toss trying to survive on 3 bases, just because of the investment requried to stop medivac drops. This has also translated into slower 3rd bases from Toss, likewise due to the ability of medivacs to quickly be anywhere.
Good luck with your play  .
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Thank you very much for all your comments.
I've been blindly focusing on my macro lately. I believe that at my level of play, if I do macro correctly, I would never have to win a fight using too much micro. And you pointed out two very interesting facts :
- My build aren't neat yet.
On the very early game, my focus is only to take my third as soon as possible, depending on what my op does. But my core tech come too late - I forget to start my wp upgrade, to build my robotic bay, and so on...
- I lack of overall game sens
Current PvT meta is about slowing down your enemy with a lot of early units, preventing him to reach your base, or rushing right away into colossi. I try to do a little bit of both, which does't works.
So in order to improve I can :
- Play a lot of games
- Watch a lot of pro games, and try to understand it better and better, or read some posts here as the Protoss Help Me thread
- Learn one or two builds, from early to mid-game
Last point on my "not sure what I could improve"... I didn't want to suggest that I've reach a stage where I can't improve anything. The question was more about where should I focus my attention, and you answered it perfectly.
Thanks again !
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On June 26 2013 23:09 Heziva wrote:
So in order to improve I can :
- Play a lot of games
- Watch a lot of pro games, and try to understand it better and better, or read some posts here as the Protoss Help Me thread
- Learn one or two builds, from early to mid-game.
This is good assessment!
When watching replays of progames, try focusing on the things that doesn't really catch your attention.
The one thing that is not very important at this stage is the big engagements. Instead, I would focus on everything else, when and which units does he build at which timings? At which timings does he add tech buildings, at which timings does he add gateways? How does he deal with harass?
If you follow builds more strictly, you will quickly discover many hidden advantages in the timings that pro-gamers do, a lot of stuff that you won't necessarily notice, but will show when you become a lot more successful overall in your ladder play.
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Hez, reading your posts and watching the replay I see a bit of a disconnect that no one here has commented on.
You claim your macro was 'superior', yet it was objectively awful. Not being mean, it may well be quite acceptable as Gold level. But macro includes mechanics - spending money, not having idle structures - these are almost as important as probes and pylons and openings. Banking resources, idle tech, banked chrono...I can 100% guarantee you that if a diamond or above opponent resumed from replay 1 minute into that game, he could straight out have killed that terran WITHOUT tech, just gateway.
So that's actually great news - you have two avenues for improvement.
You can continue to improve your style, letting macro improve organically with your overall skill. This is things like handing battle micro better, squeezing colossi out on-time - you will hold that attack.
Alternatively, you could focus on pure mechanics. Spend all your chrono, spend it wisely, never bank more than 350 gas or minerals in the first 9 minutes (except nexus/warp-cycle), make sure no idle structures ever. If you do that and just do a two base gateway timing you will be in diamond automatically *actually* off pure macro. Then you could work on your style.
The first way is something most players find more fun, so probably do that, but the second route is a faster route to becoming better. Just something to consider.
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EPT
