EPT[D] Factory/Fortress: Getting tvp mech to «work» - Page 2
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
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babyToSS
233 Posts
FYI, one turret does not stop warp prism harass. You can drop zealots and focus down the turret before the warp prism health takes any decent amount of damage (shields regen pretty quick). So they are more of a stall option rather than a harass stopping one. Edit: I forgot to add that if you can afford the necessary amount of planetaries, turrets and sensor towers along with the mech ball then you have already won the game coz you are outmacroing the toss pretty hard. I have given up on mech but I hate bio a lot so if someone can make it work I am all for it. IMO youa re better off exploring sky terran. Banshee raven viking+support are waay better than anything factory against toss. Atleast you make the colossus obsolete and have to focus on the HT. The big issue with late game terran tech is how vulnerable it is to feedback+gateway warpin reinforcement. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On December 10 2011 13:38 statikg wrote: Lol, the thing about mech is, ask a bunch of terrans why its bad, and every single one will give you a different answer. Not really...everyone knows why it's bad and it's generally agreed upon that it's not viable right now because of the strength of every single protoss unit against mech + army remaxes with zealot/chargelots/immortals...etc...if you're saying every Terran will give you a different answer, the reason that is is because there's literally 50 different ways to kill a mech Terran in TvP...so I guess in that respect you're right. Every Terran may give you a different answer, but they are all correct answers...there's too many ways to kill mech/deal with it...so yeah...=/ The only two ways it will ever become viable again is if blizzard patches to tweak things (such as armory gas price reduction + upgrades) or wait till heart of the swarm and see... Blizzard honestly has dropped the ball on patching mech play to be viable...in TvP. | ||
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babyToSS
233 Posts
On December 10 2011 13:59 avilo wrote: Not really...everyone knows why it's bad and it's generally agreed upon that it's not viable right now because of the strength of every single protoss unit against mech + army remaxes with zealot/chargelots/immortals...etc...if you're saying every Terran will give you a different answer, the reason that is is because there's literally 50 different ways to kill a mech Terran in TvP...so I guess in that respect you're right. Every Terran may give you a different answer, but they are all correct answers...there's too many ways to kill mech/deal with it...so yeah...=/ The only two ways it will ever become viable again is if blizzard patches to tweak things (such as armory gas price reduction + upgrades) or wait till heart of the swarm and see... Blizzard honestly has dropped the ball on patching mech play to be viable...in TvP. This a 100%. Mech kinda died after the tank damage nerf to non armored units. It doesnt work because of a bunch of factors, chief among them being - immortal burst is too good (a few immos can one shot tanks and take forever to die), gas and supply cost of tanks, the amount of shots it takes to kill chargelost, lack of spider mines, lack of reliable anti-air on the same upgrade path, blink stalkers and the warp-in mechanic. Keep in mind that all of this is apart from the correct way to play against mech (expo heavy play). Really good toss players with strong BW background (WhiteRa!) don't ever lose to SC2 mech. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
If anyones interested I could spend some time making a new thread with alot of breakdowns of what Ive gathered over the months (almost a year now) of using mech in TvP. Ive never done this before but where you guys normally upload your replays? I could upload some vids if people are interested. Oh, and im a casual GM@SEA btw. | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
~_~ Also, using your initial rax to produce ghosts once you're on 3 bases is pretty crucial, good EMPs+Tanks+BFHs actually massacre chargelots. You also CAN'T bunch up your tanks, it's hard making sure they're mostly spread, but if you don't he can pull 6-10 chargelots and manually charge into a chunk of tanks and sac 10 zealots for 5-6 tanks, etc. | ||
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babyToSS
233 Posts
On December 10 2011 14:35 YyapSsap wrote: I use to be part of the group that thought mech could be viable but gave up on mech after the patch that nerfed BFH (the last mech nerf). But in the past month or so, Im beginning to think it is viable (against almost all openers and compositions) and I can admit that the mindset/play style that I had with Mech back then is different to now. The PF pushes and building maginot lines can work but that isn't the best way to approach mech, plus with that many resources you could have done anything tbh. If anyones interested I could spend some time making a new thread with alot of breakdowns of what Ive gathered over the months (almost a year now) of using mech in TvP. Ive never done this before but where you guys normally upload your replays? I could upload some vids if people are interested. Oh, and im a casual GM@SEA btw. I would love to see what you did to win with mech at GM level. I am particularly interested in seeing mech winning a series of games against strong macro toss players that know how to respond to it. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On December 10 2011 14:37 Skwid1g wrote: I go mech in like 1/3 of my TvPs @ high masters, it works on certain maps but I have a really bad tendency to go into macro mode, drop mules every time I hit 50 energy, and then not have any scans to see if they're tech switching to VRs/carriers. I know exactly what you mean, it basically comes down to having more experience (and not playing your own game but following the rhythm of the game that your playing) and having a reac starports ready to pump flying goliaths out. Also, using your initial rax to produce ghosts once you're on 3 bases is pretty crucial, good EMPs+Tanks+BFHs actually massacre chargelots. You also CAN'T bunch up your tanks, it's hard making sure they're mostly spread, but if you don't he can pull 6-10 chargelots and manually charge into a chunk of tanks and sac 10 zealots for 5-6 tanks, etc. ^ This is also a good advice. That single barrack at early game is used to pump ghosts later which is crucial sometimes. Sc2replays.net or sc2replayed.com? | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On December 10 2011 14:39 babyToSS wrote: I would love to see what you did to win with mech at GM level. I am particularly interested in seeing mech winning a series of games against strong macro toss players that know how to respond to it. I regret not saving most of the replays (some were epic as far as I remember) since I dont save that much often because I go straight onto the next game.. :D | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
On December 10 2011 09:38 Quotidian wrote: Disclaimer, please read: you can actually win games with mech. ... Of course you can. Also, for the pink Terran, isn that taken from Griffith? | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On December 10 2011 17:48 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: ... Of course you can. Also, for the pink Terran, isn that taken from Griffith? no | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
I don't see full mech working in TvP ever, but I don't see why you couldn't go some form of Biomech in the lategame aside from the rediculous gas cost ( you would have to tinker with what you can leave away ). | ||
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Dephy
Lithuania163 Posts
Pure mech is really weak in sc2 agains toss for few factors, first of imortals are low tech ez to get counter to mech and they are great, u dont need to be genius toss to figure out u need imortals. It Goes something like this "oh hes building mech, better build imortals", its natural mech counter. Now there is also blink stalkers, which forces u to leave 15-20pop army in your main, basically allowing him to freelly take expansions, while forcing u to play ultra defencivly. Carriers also totally destroys mech, since he will have 1,5 - 2x economy of your there's no way u can challenge him with bunch of vikings for air superiority. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:18 Chaosvuistje wrote: What I want to know though, as a Zerg player ( oh boy, don't shoot me already ) I don't see why you couldn't mix in Siege Tanks in your late game army. They are clunky and all but they do good damage as long as you keep the army in range. What happens to Roaches a lot is Marines buffering for the tanks while they shell away their high damage onto the Roaches until they are left to ashes. I can expect EMP'ed Zealots to be far more easy to deal with when you have Siege tanks to retreat to when you are stutter stepping in the lategame. I don't see full mech working in TvP ever, but I don't see why you couldn't go some form of Biomech in the lategame aside from the rediculous gas cost ( you would have to tinker with what you can leave away ). Terran literally gets no advantages from going bio-tank or bio-mech against protoss. The bio force needs to be able to micro against chargelots, storm, colossi-- tanks are made to stay in one position and hold it down (which they're not able to in SC2) Mixing in hellions with a bio force doesn't help either, because hellions aren't that good against chargelots. And thors are lighting rods and, again, not microable. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
One of the main keys to making mech work against protoss, if there is a way to really make it "good" against them, will involve having a different perception than that of a mech-ing terran against terran or zerg. A key thing in this will be the seige tank. How many, how few, how positioned, how many IN seige mode and how many out, etc...as opposed to the current general trend of, "I have tanks, therefore I will have them in a perfect position and have them all always seiged up in any and every engagement". I think air will also be key, specifically the raven and banshees. I think ghosts are a must. Not just enough ghosts to emp, but enough ghosts to help against the zealots with thier natural +damage to light. Hellions get eaten too quickly, and require too much of a perfect arc to really excel in an engagement against a protoss army, and thats an angle and arc that you currently can't get without guarentee-ing that they'll die or putting them in a position where they're no longer protecting your tanks via making a wall. I do think mech is viable, but again, I think it's really going to require changing the perception of how mech "works" and functions, and pushing that typical view of what mech "looks" like. | ||
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babyToSS
233 Posts
On December 11 2011 01:07 Angel_ wrote: I think the biggest problem with mech at the moment is really how people perceive what mech HAS to be. One of the main keys to making mech work against protoss, if there is a way to really make it "good" against them, will involve having a different perception than that of a mech-ing terran against terran or zerg. A key thing in this will be the seige tank. How many, how few, how positioned, how many IN seige mode and how many out, etc...as opposed to the current general trend of, "I have tanks, therefore I will have them in a perfect position and have them all always seiged up in any and every engagement". I think air will also be key, specifically the raven and banshees. I think ghosts are a must. Not just enough ghosts to emp, but enough ghosts to help against the zealots with thier natural +damage to light. Hellions get eaten too quickly, and require too much of a perfect arc to really excel in an engagement against a protoss army, and thats an angle and arc that you currently can't get without guarentee-ing that they'll die or putting them in a position where they're no longer protecting your tanks via making a wall. I do think mech is viable, but again, I think it's really going to require changing the perception of how mech "works" and functions, and pushing that typical view of what mech "looks" like. People have tried this stuff. Ghost mech was quite popular around beta and early release period. This main problem with your suggestion of getting all kinds of straport and ghost support is the gas cost of tanks in the early mid game and their supply cost in the late game. The different upgrade paths also result in your late game army being very weak. You could go all in with a strong mix of units early on (which doesn't suffer from a lot of the above stated issues) but we already know how good 111 pushes are and some NA GM (I think Warden?) posted a really strong 2 base all-in push which gets a mix of units that compliment each other. | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
On December 11 2011 01:07 Angel_ wrote: I think the biggest problem with mech at the moment is really how people perceive what mech HAS to be. One of the main keys to making mech work against protoss, if there is a way to really make it "good" against them, will involve having a different perception than that of a mech-ing terran against terran or zerg. A key thing in this will be the seige tank. How many, how few, how positioned, how many IN seige mode and how many out, etc...as opposed to the current general trend of, "I have tanks, therefore I will have them in a perfect position and have them all always seiged up in any and every engagement". I think air will also be key, specifically the raven and banshees. I think ghosts are a must. Not just enough ghosts to emp, but enough ghosts to help against the zealots with thier natural +damage to light. Hellions get eaten too quickly, and require too much of a perfect arc to really excel in an engagement against a protoss army, and thats an angle and arc that you currently can't get without guarentee-ing that they'll die or putting them in a position where they're no longer protecting your tanks via making a wall. I do think mech is viable, but again, I think it's really going to require changing the perception of how mech "works" and functions, and pushing that typical view of what mech "looks" like. I actually play mass PFs into the late game as a Sky Terran. As I get my third I ideally cut marines and start putting some PFs up while I harass the Toss hard. The idea is to tempt the Toss to a base race or force him to turtle, denying anything more than a third (denying the third is very sexy though) while I get more Starports, double upgrades, BCs and Ghosts. Which such armies you can always win in the late game because a map-splitting situation allows you to spam OCs, getting a much bigger army food-wise. Some tanks don't hurt too, but they're not necessary. | ||
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NoisyNinja
United States991 Posts
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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