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ZvZ: 10 Pool Baneling
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/10_Pool_Baneling_(vs._Zerg)
I just added this page to Liquipedia using data from CheckPrime's two games in GSL August.
I apologize for such a short post (as almost everything is covered in the liquipedia link), but I don't feel comfortable offering this as a guide because I have only executed the build myself once or twice, and not recently.
I'd like some feedback and general thoughts on this build and if anyone has additional replays to add.
I'm particularly interested in how this stacks up to 14/14 or other non hatch first builds, but I went ahead and added it anyway because someone requested it in another thread and Liquipedia doesn't have enough builds on there  .
Thanks for any replies.
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I have used this build several times in SCR tournaments online, and from my experience it is very map dependent. When I get back to my desktop I should be able to post several replays to demonstrate this. I particularly like it on a map like xel naga or maps where zergs feel very safe going hatch first.
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Never heard of 10 Pool Bling, I have done 10 Pool Speedling. This seems very intresting as I get alot of ZvZs and I don't get much time to play this could be perfect for me when I don't want to play 5+ ZvZs a day.
The only thing I don't like about the build is not Drone scouting which isn't a big deal in ZvZ anyways. My question is how could you hold this? Queens blocking ramp wouldn't be out in time would they? Depending on the map a standard 14/14 would be popping Lings about time you get there correct?
I will give this a shot when I get to play, it seems like another auto-win build vs 15 Hatch so I won't be 15 Hatching untill I figure this build out, When you get a chance post some replays of you or other players as I don't feel like watching a Gsl Zerg is an effective way to gauge a rush as most games on there they expect standard 15 Hatch.
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Some replays would be real nice.
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On September 15 2011 00:04 cpu wrote:
Some replays would be real nice.
there are three in the bottom of the wikipedia link
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Thx for that I have seen the VOD's.
I would like to see a couple replays for execution and true BO.
I am only a Gold Zerg so any replay would be helpful.
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Dont forget that it's also 10 times more effective as no pro drone-scouts. So if you can avoid the overloards you can catch them by surprise even if they 14/14.
It's an all-in that can work if you dont get scouted
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I have tried this a couple times and its not all that effective if the zerg knows how to split Drones. However I did do enough econ damage to win the game. I will mess around with it a few more games and see how it works but really 14/14 seems better in all ways as well as 6-10 pool.
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On September 16 2011 21:23 -Dustin- wrote:
I have tried this a couple times and its not all that effective if the zerg knows how to split Drones. However I did do enough econ damage to win the game. I will mess around with it a few more games and see how it works but really 14/14 seems better in all ways as well as 6-10 pool.
yeah my baneling micro isn't great since I only play around 100apm and usually try to stray away from ling bling fights when I can help it. I really feel like it's an even match against 14/14 though when you engage and just comes down to whomever has better micro will win the game. That said, if it were true (and I believe it is, but I'm not a pro gamer), then why don't we see pros doing this much more often, rather than only three times in the past 6 months in ZvZs in GSL? (It could be more than that, but I don't recall another game with 10 pool baneling used other than the 3 linked in the liquipedia article).
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In my current understanding of the MU (25 percentile KR master) this build is optimal (on massive maps) against a build range composed of 14g14p speedling expand and hatch first without drone scout.
I haven't used that build much at all [like 4 times in the last 1/2 year] so I can't think of the exact elements of a top zerg's range that it has the highest win rate against and in what exact setting... this is something i need to learn. If any good zergs can provide this information I'd appreciate it.
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I would assume its not used much because the micro is in favor of the defender. As all they have to do is split their drones into groups of 1-2 and you won't have enough banelings to trade and be ahead. Also Drones are faster than Banelings if I recall so if they see it coming just run them around while lings target down the Blings.
As I said I'm not done messing around with it, it has potential but I believe it will die out as it will be figured out.
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I encountered this so many times I tried to come up with an efficient tactic against it. The result was 11 pool(11 overpool, then first ovie). You can get 2 queens out by the time they get the banelings. I also found it necessary to extnd the creep with my first queen, trying to get it as close to the ramp as possible. There you can block about anything, from roach rush to ling rush to this tactic, by only building a couple of spines near the ramp. Works on all the maps, but you should only use it on maps that have a choke to the expansion, in order to keep a good economy. Gas doesn't even become an issue early, so you can even build a macro hatch in-base, so you can have more drone production and whatnot. The choke can be blocked with evo chambers, and then just position the spines behind those. It's quite a tight defense.
Btw Masters player here.
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On September 16 2011 21:52 -Dustin- wrote:
I would assume its not used much because the micro is in favor of the defender. As all they have to do is split their drones into groups of 1-2 and you won't have enough banelings to trade and be ahead. Also Drones are faster than Banelings if I recall so if they see it coming just run them around while lings target down the Blings.
As I said I'm not done messing around with it, it has potential but I believe it will die out as it will be figured out.
He is entirely correct. A good player just splits the drones and then he's way ahead.
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On September 16 2011 22:22 wGbNykur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 21:52 -Dustin- wrote:
I would assume its not used much because the micro is in favor of the defender. As all they have to do is split their drones into groups of 1-2 and you won't have enough banelings to trade and be ahead. Also Drones are faster than Banelings if I recall so if they see it coming just run them around while lings target down the Blings.
As I said I'm not done messing around with it, it has potential but I believe it will die out as it will be figured out. He is entirely correct. A good player just splits the drones and then he's way ahead.
It beats certain elements of a typical zvz range and loses to others, assuming perfect micro on each side. It's not helpful in identifying the range that 10 pool bane is successful against - the main piece of useful information - by simply saying "a good player splits... way ahead".
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2 zergs used it today vs me, i was trying out AXA's 9 pool into 3 queens, worked out prefect! One time my lings was at his base, while he had sent them to my base. So I killed all his drones before he had morphed his banes at my main. Second game I ran back to base with my lings and had 2 queens by the time the banes were ready (after that I just went roaches and won eventually).
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Hey,I said I would post a replay and i have it now.
Just finished a game where i opened a version of 10 pool bannling, and the opponent scouted it right away. However, I was able to do moderate economic damage while forcing spine crawlers and an overcommitment to units. This allowed me to get more drones, an earlier safe expansion, and then earlier 3 gases to start my roach upgrades.
I think it is important to note that if the opponent scouts your 10 pool banling, you do not want to overcommit your larva or gas to the engagement. You just want to force extra defense and do some economic damage while droning up.
Things that I was looking for while I was playing:
1. I had to see how many roaches he was making after I decided to expand. I sent in an overlord to see how many he was popping out, and if i saw more I would have forgone the lair, got more roaches, and got 2 spines.
2. I saw the expansion and a few roaches, so i assumed his gas was going somewhere (most likely infestors eventually). This gave me a chance to start upgrades.
3. When he got infestors on the field, I knew I could not fight him straight up. I took out his back rocks, so i would be able to use my greater number of roaches to counter attack, and my inbase third to resupply the front while burrow microing.
If anyone would like to practice with me add me on my other account orion.1744 (mid diamond). would love to work out some specifics
http://www.mediafire.com/?hupcp57hkm7aelg
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Why did people message you to add a replay quickly because they want to discuss it, and then they don't message you back?
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"error downloading file" - you might want to repost it.
If we're looking for general thoughts I personally think that this build is pretty trashy, I don't think it even matters if the build is scouted or not as you always stand a chance against banes, even if you only spot them as they approach your ramp. This is because banelings move a lot slower than drones, slowlings and of course, speedlings so I think you only want to consider this build if you feel that your micro really is superior to your opponent.
Sure, you can probably win a lot of games using this build but this will be due to mistakes on your opponent's part as opposed to your own excellence.
If you want to play an early game war and your micro and multitasking is excellent I would suggest that +1 melee or carapace lings is a more solid build. This is because it is more effective against roaches, having a +1 is better for the mid-game and you can micro against ling/bane because you will be winning the war of attrition whenever the lings are engaging. If you go for cara then your lings also survive one baneling detonation, although its a little more tricky to sneak that 50 extra gas into a build. Conversely +1 melee will kill roaches and drones more quickly.
For reference: I'm only platinum but I figure early game experiences are relatively even across the top 40% of the player base.
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Pretty sure I had an easy time beating this build just recently, with a standard 11 overpool, with enough speedlings to defend, followed with a safe expo. Put a spine by the ramp base, stayed ahead and killed him with my first roach/hydra push.
If you don't snipe a couple banes and just let them blast all your lings, then yeah, it can be a deadly rush. Otherwise, it's just a slow-econ 10 pool, since you're going to need the vespane.
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GSL spoiler: 10 pool banelings vs 14gas 13 pool
+ Show Spoiler +AOL Semis DongRaeGu vs July game 3: Result: + Show Spoiler +July engages in what seems like a pretty even fight, and then a followup "even" fight where he mismicros some banes costing him the game.
Good example showing at least in my opinion how even 10 pool baneling vs 14/13 (or 14/14) is in engagement. It really seems to just come down to who micros better.
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EPT
