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Nestea recently "debuted" this ZvP strategy vs. Anypro in the GSL.
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65228
Short version is if you see early Nexus you rush lair for creep pooping and drop 3 spines to slowly open his door and do massive damage. There are obvious details like the openness of the natural, but that's not relevant here. This topic also popped up in one of Mr. Bitter's lessons and he suggested the strategy was actually viable as a standard response in this situation.
Here is my question: If the Protoss waits long enough and masses sufficient forces can't he run in and snipe the Overlord? And does doing so kill the push (as the spines will slowly die off and won't be able to reposition once the creep is gone)?
I'm a Terran, so obviously not familiar with the high level technicalities of all this, but that seems like a workable response. Or will the Zerg just have too many lings/spines before you have sufficient Sentries/Stalkers to kill the ovie?
Thanks!
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What do you mean by "wait long enough"? The Nexus dies if you "wait long enough". And the 3 spines + handful of zerglings are enough to kill any units that try to kill the spines.
EDIT: I'm also not sure how you would snipe the overlord when there's 3 spines and lings protecting it. Also creep recedes pretty slowly and it's not like the spines instantly die off-creep.
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On May 09 2011 06:16 Jtn wrote:
What do you mean by "wait long enough"? The Nexus dies if you "wait long enough". And the 3 spines + handful of zerglings are enough to kill any units that try to kill the spines.
Not saying kill the spines. I'm saying absorb some damage as you build your force and snipe the Overlord. That, to me, seems like the weak point of the push.
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By the time you have enough stalkers to kill off 2-3 overlords while getting wacked by 3 spines, your nexus will probably be dead. Even if you get the ovies, spines will still be alive long enough to fuck shit up.
So no.
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On May 09 2011 06:17 staxringold wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 06:16 Jtn wrote:
What do you mean by "wait long enough"? The Nexus dies if you "wait long enough". And the 3 spines + handful of zerglings are enough to kill any units that try to kill the spines. Not saying kill the spines. I'm saying absorb some damage as you build your force and snipe the Overlord. That, to me, seems like the weak point of the push.
That makes no sense and the guy above me explained why so not sure what you're saying.
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One way that seems possible is to simply make an extra cannon in front of your nexus. This leaves you more open to roach all ins, and reduces your economic advantage, but it seems to shut down any spine attacks on your front (unless they are willing to sacrifice lings to tank damage until the spines can root. this still seems pretty defendable though)
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I think the build only works if your opponent goes Forge first FE. That way P has minimal forces.
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Yeah, it should be assumed by everyone posting that this is meant ONLY against FFE. It may or may not work in other cases, but I think the point is to discuss if it can be easily defended/prevented when the toss goes FFE.
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That early on after a forge FE the protoss doesn't have the units necessary to deal with even 12 lings without the help of the cannons and simcity. If you actually look at the timings, the core finishes when the first spine starts. You don't make zealots after a forge FE, or at least not more than 1 because the 2 things that really threaten the FE, is banes and roaches, which destroy the zealots. From thinking about it protoss needs 1 cannon in front of the nexus on open natural forge FE's, and if somebody tries to do that strat, put up one cannon for every spine in front.
Spines don't die THAT quickly from lack of creep nourishment. It's approximately equivalent to an 2 probe attacking it. Three spines have time to kill 2-3 nexuses before they die of lack of nourishment.
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On May 09 2011 06:12 staxringold wrote:
Here is my question: If the Protoss waits long enough and masses sufficient forces can't he run in and snipe the Overlord? And does doing so kill the push (as the spines will slowly die off and won't be able to reposition once the creep is gone)?
Thanks!
after a forge FE you have no units at that time. that's the whole point of this attack.
it does not work, if you have a wall of buildings in front of your nexus. this only worked, becuause the nexus was part of the wall and the canons were behind that wall (obviously).
If you have a wall and canons in front of your nexus, this doesnt work, because you actually can not target the nexus. this build was a specific reaction to the risky building placement of anypro.
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I made an extremely fast lair build here that is safe to any opener except 2 gate. I tested this strategy with the build and my 3 spines completed at 5:20, which is a good 1 minute 40 seconds earlier than nestea's execution. That means rushing void ray won't be able to take out the spines in time. Could this be an instant win against FFE?
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On May 09 2011 06:41 WrathOfAiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 06:12 staxringold wrote:
Here is my question: If the Protoss waits long enough and masses sufficient forces can't he run in and snipe the Overlord? And does doing so kill the push (as the spines will slowly die off and won't be able to reposition once the creep is gone)?
Thanks! after a forge FE you have no units at that time. that's the whole point of this attack. it does not work, if you have a wall of buildings in front of your nexus. this only worked, becuause the nexus was part of the wall and the canons were behind that wall (obviously). If you have a wall and canons in front of your nexus, this doesnt work, because you actually can not target the nexus. this build was a specific reaction to the risky building placement of anypro.
Are there ways in which you can still make the spine crawler push strategy effective? Maybe through using an ALL IN roach/spine crawler combination? Maybe by getting an evo and putting down spore crawlers to counter air units?
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On May 09 2011 06:42 JaqMs wrote:I made an extremely fast lair build here that is safe to any opener except 2 gate. I tested this strategy with the build and my 3 spines completed at 5:20, which is a good 1 minute 40 seconds earlier than nestea's execution. That means rushing void ray won't be able to take out the spines in time. Could this be an instant win against FFE?
I'm pretty sure that Nestea wanted a relatively quick expansion too in addition to the fast lair, which is why the lair wasn't the fastest possible lair. If Nestea didn't expand, I'm sure the protoss would have gotten suspicious.
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basically it seems you need to put down some cannons yourself
Seems smart to me, as it will cause the P to cut probes or unit or tech (cutting probes hurts them much more than you since you can build more than 1 worker at a time).
Concept looks like a 2 rax; you don't kill them, but it just forces both of you to be on a lower econ, with possibly higher footing for you if you micro well or the other has bad decision making or messes up.
Question:
Why did nestea build the 3 spines perpendicular to the nexus, instead of parallel? What if the P builds 3 canons in front of his Nexus? Only 1 spine would be able to hit back, and the other two would be sitting there o.o
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umm buildings don't die fast without creep. it shoudl take 4 minutes or so for the spines to die ? (so no it doesn't work to snipe the ovis to let the spines die)
So if the spines are burrowed in the ground early game they are pretty much undefeatable (only a pf is stronger ^.^ ).
Should be possible to surround spines on the move with probes hehe, or delay them a lil on build, but the eco damage would be really hard and fast lair + expansions ... t2 zerg can destroy a toss on so many ways with 4 gases avialable even with a low drone count.
But well we already saw offensiv spines in several games, but mostly only with a hatch ninjad. Even though lair is in a way cheaper and as fast. So it was only a natural that this would happen  . nestea probably watched some bw matches on colosseum ;P
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Anypro's build techs too slowly vs what he scouted. He saw a 14gas/13pool which finishes speed around 5:05 and gets its first larva inject around 4:40.
He went for nexus forge pylon cannon cannon and then a gateway and his 2nd cannon finished at 4:26. There was no reason for him to get that second cannon before his gateway.
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On May 09 2011 06:38 Amui wrote:
Spines don't die THAT quickly from lack of creep nourishment. It's approximately equivalent to an 2 probe attacking it. Three spines have time to kill 2-3 nexuses before they die of lack of nourishment.
I guess that's the core of my question, you so rarely see un-creeped Spines I wasn't sure what the timing would be like.
Thanks!
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On May 09 2011 06:41 WrathOfAiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 06:12 staxringold wrote:
Here is my question: If the Protoss waits long enough and masses sufficient forces can't he run in and snipe the Overlord? And does doing so kill the push (as the spines will slowly die off and won't be able to reposition once the creep is gone)?
Thanks! it does not work, if you have a wall of buildings in front of your nexus. this only worked, becuause the nexus was part of the wall and the canons were behind that wall (obviously).
Have you tried it?
Even if it's a core / gateway / forge wall-off you don't have anything to stop the spines from killing all those three buildings. If the Zerg player brings lings and a Queen to transfuse the spines (depending on rush distance) then I don't see how the toss will hold it.
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I'm trying to think of a counter for this... I suppose it would be up to the protoss to scout gas usage/lair tech, and then get a void ray if this build is being used. One void ray can pick off three drones as they make their way across the map.
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If 3 spines are attacking a nexus, and there are 3 overlords dropping creep on the spines, and you zerglings in position, it takes like 15 seconds for creep to decipate or something like that its on the 1000 tips post.
Take that into account + having enough stalkers to shoot overlords + the time it takes for spines to actaully die off creep which btw if you send 3 more ovies when your 3 ovies are already in place you can repoop creep as spines don't die when they are unburrowed.
Then after this long ass time that the spines have not died they are doing 35? damage per shot x3. If the nexus isn't dead its dying and speedlings can come and clean it up..
I liked the play very much and I don't see it working on shattered any time soon but it looks cool.
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EPT
