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[G] How to steal a build (mostly based on Day[9])

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Senth_Wallace
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden7 Posts
April 27 2011 16:12 GMT
#1
Hi everyone!

This guide will continue to grow in size. I will make a changelog everytime I add things to the guide so that you easily can update yourself.

1. Preface
+ Show Spoiler +
Why did I make this guide?
After Day[9]'s episode #285 Stealing a build I wanted to steal a build, and in fact I was going to do that before I saw the episode (but stealing it in the wrong way, explained later). After trying it the "Day[9] way" I must say that I got a lot better on the build, however I encountered some problems when I went to the ladder.

I would like this guide to sum up everything that Day[9] said in his 285th episode (so that you don't have to rewatch it every time ) but mainly as an inspiration to other fellow bronze league players that wants to get better, and help/guide them getting better in a relative fast and easy way.


2. Disclaimer
+ Show Spoiler +
I'm no master at SC2, heck I'm only a bronze league player. However I got most of the information from Day[9]'s 285th episode and I can back it up with replays. Thus at least this way of "training" works on at least me and hopefully on lots of other people. However as with everything this guide is not for everyone, it requires some work, although it's quite minimal and the reward you get for the effort makes it totally worth it. If you want to get better this is the guide for you. If you just want to play and have fun and don't care at all to improve, how come you're reading this in the first place? xD That said I found it fun to analyze a replay and see my own progress, I hope you too will find it a fun practise


3. How to steal a build? Step by step
+ Show Spoiler +
Before starting I would just like to say that in section 5—Does it really work? An example of build stealing—I will go through an example of me stealing a build. If this is your first time stealing a build you should read that section and watch [urlDay[9]'s 289th episode which I was lucky enough to appear in with this example build. On another note you should read at least to and including section 7—Tips and Tricks.

It's not necessary to do it all fancy in word, use notepad or why not a simple physical notebook?

Let's get started with the 'hard' work!

0. Getting inspired
  • Watch some replays or maybe you watched an awesome game during a tournament and you want to copy this build. You should choose a build that you like, it doesn't even have to be good.

1. Create building groups
  • Create three building groups where you add the buildings that gets created 1) before the expansion; 2) during the expansion (while cc/nexus/hatch is building); and 3) after the expansion. Additional building groups could be created but it's generally the first 7-13 minutes, depending on the build, that are important; thus three building groups should suffice. You should create the building groups by watching the replay and examine when he builds the buildings.
  • Play 2-3 games; the games should be against a very easy computer, focusing on the buildings. Build whatever units you like and skip scouting and attacking. When you remember which buildings you are to build, continue to the next step. If you have a hard time remembering, maybe play 1-2 more games but don't stay in this step until you get all the timings perfect, that is not the idea of this step! It is just for you to remember which buildings should be built in which group, nothing more.

2. Fill in unit mixes
  • Fill unit mixes in the groups that you created in the previous step. I.e. the number of units that are being created in the specific groups. Keep it simple—allowed keywords are: 1, FEW, LOTS, and CONSTANT (e.g. CONSTANT Colossus). You should not specify the exact number of units being created, e.g. 2 zealots, 5 sentries. Do this be re-watching the replay.
  • Play 3-5 games; the games should again be against a very easy computer, this time focusing on building the right units. The buildings should be build kind of automatic by now, but there will be some struggle with the buildings in first game(s). When you feel like you're getting hang of the units (and buildings) continue to the next step. Again this step is not to make things perfect, the next step is for that!

3. Refine, refine, REFINE!
  • Create timings; The key here is to see how good you are (in future games) in comparison to the other player you're stealing the build from, i.e. refine your build! Load the replay once again and start taking notes when key buildings are build, pushes occur, etc. In general these could be Robo Facility, Expansion!, 3rd Gateway, Proxy Pylon, Big (final) push. Don't be too precise with the timings, i.e. use 04:35/04:30 Gateway instead of 04:33 Gateway. Now create some unit counts in mainly key moments in the game (also in between if the time is long between the key moments). E.g. time when you expand, first minor push, big push, etc.
  • Play one game and benchmark it! Re-watch your replay and check how your timings were, did you miss something? Maybe scout, proxy pylon, exp was 1min late or maybe early? How many units did you have in comparison to the other player. Make a small list of what you need to improve in the next games.
  • Play more games and focus on your weaknesses from the list you just wrote down. When you think you got this build benchmark the last game and see how well you did. You can play lots of game in this step, but instead of doing so, when you feel "Hey I'm kind of good with this build" continue to the next step. A voluntairy step is to check how much you have improved from game 1-1 and/or game 3-1.

4. Go and play some ladder games!
  • Now go and play some ladder games; the first games will probably be quite bad. (I have proposed adding a step before this to play against a harder computer or friends before going into ladder games).


4. Why steal a build this way?
+ Show Spoiler +
Stealing a build this way instead of just listing when to build things by food has many advantages noted by Day[9] in his Day[9] Daily #285 - Newbie Tuesday: Stealing a Build and also by me when I tried it out:
  • If you don't execute it like the top notch player, the build will not be messed up as when you use the 'food system'.
  • You gain more insight of the build, and why it works.
  • You can easily modify the build to accomodate for the situation. If you want to add another unit/building to the mix you just have to add it to the appropriate group. E.g. Maybe you need another gateway early to be able to defend against an early push. Or create the gateway at 10 food instead of 13 if you're up against a 6 pool (I don't know if this is a good strategy, it's just an example of modifying the original build to create a building earlier depending on the situation).
  • More benefits? Help me remember!


5. Does this really work? An example of build stealing
+ Show Spoiler +
Here's an example of how I used this (or rather Day[9]'s) guide and how my progression was. This was also aired in Day[9]'s Day[9] Daily #289 - Newbie Tuesday: Refining a Stolen Build, so you can check it out there if you like.

Note about replay APM: In the beginning of the games I have higher APM it's because I train my mouse accuracy during this time because it sucks big time... It is not to get higher APM.

0. Getting inspired
I don't like fast cheesy builds, which Naniwa used in some (read lots) of PvT in MLG dallas; however there was one match that I really liked when he went for 2gw exp, instead of 1gw or 3gw. Just putting enough pressure in the beginning.

1. Create building groups
2. Fill in unit mixes
I noticed that he built a lot less sentries than I did (I love sentries lol) he built like 3 sentries and I built 10 or more... Also noticed that his robo facitily was earlier (started when exp still wasn't done) and that his 3rd and 4th gateway was way later than mines. Also his robo bay was not started directly after the facility. Robo bay was started before 3rd and 4th gateway. Maybe start robo bay around 50 food or something? (Question pointed to myself)

Group 1 — Before Exp
  • 2 Gateways
  • 1 Core
  • 1 Gas
  • —————
  • 1 Zealot
  • 1 Sentry
  • FEW Stalkers

Group 2 — During Exp
  • Nexus, duh?
  • Sort of Gas? (before exp is done)
  • —————
  • FEW Zealots
  • FEW Stalkers

Group 3 — After Exp
  • Robo Facitily
  • 2 Gas
  • Robo Bay
  • 3 Gateways
  • —————
  • 1 Observer
  • FEW Sentries
  • LOTS Zealots
  • LOTS Stalkers
  • LOTS Colossus


3 Refine, refine, REFINE!
Noticed that 3rd gas is build directly when exp is finished and fourth a bit later. I will not describe all my games thoroughly because I did not watch the replay unless I felt that I actually had made some more progress, i.e. the last game.

Naniwa's Timings
Naniwa Building (and push) Timings
      4:50 Proxy Pylon!
      5:30 Exp
      6:40 Robo Facility + PUSH
      8:40 Robo Bay
      9:10 2 Gateways (3rd & 4th)
      10:00 Extended Thermal Lance (ETL) upgrade
      11:30 5th Gateway
      ~12:00 Move out with BIG PUSH

Naniwa Unit Count
      5:30 26 probes, 1 zealot, 2 stalkers, 1 sentry
      6:40 27 probes, 3 zealots, 4 stalkers, 1 sentry -> Probes cut? Yes probes were cut!
      10:00 49 probes, 6 stalkers, 2 sentries (Some units died in push)
      12:00 59 probes, 3 zealots, 10 stalkers, 2 sentries, 2 colossus + 4 zealots being made in proxy pylon!


My Own Timings
GAME 3-1
My Building (and push) Timings
      PROXY PYLON FORGOTTEN!?
      5:10 Exp (20s early)
      6:10 Robo Facility
      7:40 Robo Bay (1MIN early!)
      8:30 2 Gateways
      9:50 5th Gateway (WAY early!)
      12:00 Move out with BIG PUSH (actually on time, woaw...)

My Unit Count
      5:30 25 probes, 1 zealot, 2 stalkers, 1 sentry (One probe behind)
      6:40 28 probes, 3 zealots, 3 stalkers, 1 sentry (One stalker behind, but Naniwa cut probes)
      10:00 43 probes, 5 zealots, 7 stalkers, 1 sentry (Many units behind... No engagement in a battle...)
      12:00 53 probes, 9 zealots, 14 stalkers, 2 sentries, 2 colossus


Conclusions
Don't forget PYLONS & PROBES! but start skipping a probe or two around first push. Don't be too early on exp, robo, robo and gateways! Chronoboost more!

GAME 3-6
My Building (and push) Timings
      4:50 Proxy Pylon (Lol I didn't even check the time, it felt late, but it wasn't at all...)
      5:25 Exp
      6:20 Push (on probe and my own units)
      6:40 Robo Facility (30s late)
      8:30 Robo Bay
      9:30 2 Gateways (20s late)
      9:40 ETL upgrade (20s early)
      10:50 5th Gateway (still too early!!!)
      11:50 BIG PUSH

My Unit Count
      5:30 25 probes, 1 zealot, 2 stalkers, 1 sentry (probe almost finished so not entirely a probe after)
      6:40 27 probes, 1 zealot, 4 stalkers, 1 sentry
      10:00 43 probes, 2 zealots, 4 stalkers, 1 sentry (behind on probes, and quite a lot)
      12:00 56 probes, 7 zealots, 8 stalkers, 2 sentries (missed a sentry and some stalkers, more stalkers will be warped in in a moment)


Replays
I restarted some games due to the fact that I missed a pylon (26 pylon) or some other things, I still included these replays to show that you don't have to play through the game if you make a rather big mistake.

Naniwa's Replay:
VTPokebunny vs. dignitasnani

Part 1:
Stealing Naniwa 2gw+exp PvT part1-1
Stealing Naniwa 2gw+exp PvT part1-2
Stealing Naniwa 2gw+exp PvT part1-3

Part 2:
Stealing Naniwa 2gw+exp PvT part2-1
Stealing Naniwa 2gw+exp PvT part2-2
Stealing Naniwa 2gw+exp PvT part2-3
Stealing Naniwa 2gw+exp PvT part2-4
Stealing Naniwa 2gw+exp PvT part2-5
Stealing Naniwa 2gw+exp PvT part2-6

Part 3:
Stealing Naniwa 2gw+exp PvT part3-1
Stealing Naniwa 2gw+exp PvT part3-2
Stealing Naniwa 2gw+exp PvT part3-3
Stealing Naniwa 2gw+exp PvT part3-4
Stealing Naniwa 2gw+exp PvT part3-5
Stealing Naniwa 2gw+exp PvT part3-6


6. How 'should' it be used?
+ Show Spoiler +
This section describes how you should use the newly used build, what it generally does and does not.
  • You will learn a build very fast!
  • But you need to keep using it for some days, else you will forget it very fast.
  • You can use build stealing to improve your knowledge about how to play in a certain style.
  • Stealing a build and being good at it won't allow you to beat all opponents.
  • Once you have learned the build you can start to use it in the ladder. However if you want to improve, you should not keep using the same build for several weeks or months. Use it in some matches, when you encounter problems with your build, you can try to figure out why something went wrong. Maybe your play was good, the opponent just had a good timing push; how should you change the build to accomodate for this?
  • By learning many different builds you will learn how to account for X opponent using build Y by your own. (I think, can someone confirm this?)

In short, try stealing different builds and once you encounter problems try to solve re-watch the replay and see if it was your fault or if you could not possible do anything with the current build. Try to solve this by either changing the current build, or stealing another build that solves exactly this problem.

As a recommendation from Day[9] in his #269 episode he recommends playing at least 1 game 5 days a week. If you want to learn the build you will probably need to play it some days per week to keep it in memory. In general I have a hypothesis that the better player you are the faster you learn things because you can assosiate the build with other builds etc. Can anyone confirm this?


7. Tips and tricks
+ Show Spoiler +
Here are some tips and tricks that can help you with stealing a build, maybe remembering it better or learning it faster?
  • If you feel that you did something really stupid in a game, restart it; like super supply block yourself, forgetting that important upgrade, etc. Don't mind these mistakes in step 1 because then you just focus on those buildings and don't care if you get supply blocked, missed an upgrade etc.
  • You might notice some subtle things watching the replays, write down these things temporary. E.g. 3rd and 4th gas are not built at the same time.
  • Take notes of questions that arrise whilst playing a game. E.g. should I really build this building now? Does he really produce constantly from his gateways?
  • You don't have to write down everything, e.g. getting inspired. Groups, and benchmark times are however important to write down, also what you need to improve. That way you can ben


8. Tips yet to be tested in field
+ Show Spoiler +
These tips are not verified, if you think they sound good you can try them out, if you do please post a reply with your replay and state if and why it worked or didn't work.
  • Senth thinks that adding an eighth step—playing against a hard/very hard computer—might help lower level players to transist from a computer game to ladder game better. Senth will try this out later.


9. Personal Notes
+ Show Spoiler +
These are just my own experiences with using this guide and some problems I encountered.

First of it was really hard (for me at least) to build the right buildings, I was kind of stressed while just building the buildings in the first game. I think this is normal for a low-level player to be like this. I also noticed some bad patterns I had during almost all refining games; remembering to scout and building proxy pylon. Before stealing this build I must say that I almost never forgot to send a scout probe, however because you are allowed to skip that in the first two parts, not sending a scout became a part of the build.

A major problem I had after learning the build versus a very easy computer was that I had a hard time transitioning to playing ladder games. Colossus push would be around 2-3 minutes late, even though the other player didn't do that much. I think that if you are a low-level player like me you probably need another step to transition to ladder games more easily. That is to play against a hard or very hard computer, better would be a practise friend that you can command acting in a certain way. Just practis till you are comfortable attacking and maintaining some macro at the same time, at least that was the problem with me, not being able to attack and macro at the same time. Benchmark how good you did against the player who's build you're stealing. Also benchmark some ladder games you play!


10. Your contributions
+ Show Spoiler +
You can contribute to this guide by posting a comment of what has worked for you. However be sure to add replays if you want to back up you theory, if you only post a theory then it might end up guide if someone will test it. If I have the time I will post some suggestions into section 8 Tips yet to be tested in field. For tips to enter this section I have to have spare time, and the tip has to be good (in my opinion or an experienced player) or made by an experience player. STILL I would like to note that I don't have all the time in the world and I might miss a tip or two, probably not when you post it with a replay.

Another important note is that the tips must concern build stealing, not how you get better at playing against players in general, not how you increase you APM, not how you... You can post tips how you could apply the build stealing, e.g. "Steal different builds so that you get more ideas how to create your own build, i.e. don't use the same build for several weeks or even months. Steal a new build then, or find a new solution." This could be a tip.


11. Acknowledgements
  • To Day[9] that enlightened me and probably many other about how to steal a build. But also being a great source of inspiration for me, without him I would probably not have gotten my SC2 copy until a lot later and would never found it this fun to play SC2. Thanks to him I know the basics, how to get better, but most of all to play just for fun and never anything else. Thanks Day[9]!
  • Thanks to jermany755 for pointing out some good tips and being one of the people that indirectly boosted my confidence in creating this guide!


Okay I think I've written too much now...
Hope you have a fun time stealing (read learning) builds in this way!


PS. If you find spelling faults, or other weird stuff in the guide be sure to comment on that. I changed lots of parts while writing so some things numbers might be wrong, e.g. step references, number of steps. DS.


Regards
Senth Wallace
Selkie
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States530 Posts
April 27 2011 16:15 GMT
#2
Very nice!

I've been trying to steal a build for awhile now, this really helps.

How would I go about adding modifications to a build?
watwat
Profile Joined January 2011
48 Posts
April 27 2011 16:16 GMT
#3
stealing a guide on stealing builds

touché
FortuneZerg
Profile Joined November 2010
United States90 Posts
April 27 2011 17:39 GMT
#4
On April 28 2011 01:16 watwat wrote:
stealing a guide on stealing builds

touché


Lol
Who dares wins. ☜(゚ヮ゚☜) » RHgaming.com
TheResidentEvil
Profile Joined September 2010
United States991 Posts
April 27 2011 19:22 GMT
#5
you didnt say anything about chrono. I think thats very important.
LicheN
Profile Joined July 2011
South Africa1 Post
July 02 2011 16:12 GMT
#6
I loved the episode featuring your build stealing ability Senth! I'm looking for a replay of a top Terran player going for a Mech focused build (you know tanks inching forward for the inevitable late-game win). Can anyone direct me towards a good replay? I've been watching Jinro's latest games but he seems to be going Bio all the time.
You're unique. Just like everyone else.
Dr_Ngo
Profile Joined March 2011
28 Posts
July 02 2011 17:10 GMT
#7
I don't think a bronze league player should be making a guide on anything

User was temp banned for this post.
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
July 02 2011 17:14 GMT
#8
On July 03 2011 02:10 Dr_Ngo wrote:
I don't think a bronze league player should be making a guide on anything


This guy was featured on day9 because he was able to copy Naniwa's 2 gate build and get pretty exact timings. Please don't be an elitist.
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
SolidSven
Profile Joined June 2011
Latvia7 Posts
July 02 2011 18:06 GMT
#9
Hmm, all the guides I've read so far keep emphasizing on how important it is to pick one build per match up and stick with it. I don't think constantly switching to different builds will teach you more, in fact, by sticking to singular build you'll ace the timings eventually. Of course you can always tweak the build, but switching completely, I don't know if it's worth it.
Otherwise, nice guide! I've just been stealing builds for my match ups and this should make it easier, Thanks.
Theovide
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden914 Posts
July 02 2011 18:43 GMT
#10
On July 03 2011 02:10 Dr_Ngo wrote:
I don't think a bronze league player should be making a guide on anything

Huh? are bronze leaguers less worth human beings or what exactly is the reason for that? I agree on the fact that bronze leaguers probably shouldn't post BO guides based on their own games, but else than that they are just as capable as anyone else to post a guide. Especially one that are designed towards other players in the same spot that want to improve.
gosuRob
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States319 Posts
July 02 2011 18:54 GMT
#11
I've been stealing builds from kiwikaki and owning with them lol
Rules? There aren't many rules. You fight mean, you win mean. It takes a certain someone
Gladiator6
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden7024 Posts
July 02 2011 18:55 GMT
#12
On July 03 2011 02:10 Dr_Ngo wrote:
I don't think a bronze league player should be making a guide on anything


Even though he plays in bronze league I think he's not a less of a player than you, maybe he just needs to practice more builds or his macro/micro. I deffinetly think you shouldnt critize all this work.

Flying, sOs, free, Light, Soulkey & ZerO
WhiteBratt
Profile Joined July 2011
Netherlands7 Posts
August 02 2011 23:48 GMT
#13
Thanks!
I was already trying to write such a guide myself after seeing that episode

Couldn't have done it as great as you did it!

Already fwdd it to some bronze league friends too :D
Scrogglez
Profile Joined October 2010
United States14 Posts
August 03 2011 00:22 GMT
#14
if you didn't put in the disclaimer no one would thought ut were bronze/master.

Good post and thanks for the guide
Senth_Wallace
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden7 Posts
September 04 2011 16:46 GMT
#15
Thanks for the words, and I definitively understand those that criticize me. Because honestly I don't have much experience playing SC2.

On another note; I need to update this guide—I started long ago with a new revision; some sentences are utterly horrible. Hopefully there will be an update in a month or two, I don't like making promises that I'm not sure if I can keep so this isn't a promise.

Happy playing and I'll be going back to SC2 again after a long break playing FFVIII
Squigly
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom629 Posts
September 04 2011 16:48 GMT
#16
On April 28 2011 01:16 watwat wrote:
stealing a guide on stealing builds

touché


We must go a level deeper!
Squigly
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom629 Posts
September 04 2011 16:53 GMT
#17
On July 03 2011 02:10 Dr_Ngo wrote:
I don't think a bronze league player should be making a guide on anything

User was temp banned for this post.


Sorry for double post but yikes temp ban seems kinda harsh....

On topic, awesome OP. Nice one man.
NoisyNinja
Profile Joined February 2011
United States991 Posts
September 05 2011 02:03 GMT
#18
On July 03 2011 02:10 Dr_Ngo wrote:
I don't think a bronze league player should be making a guide on anything

User was temp banned for this post.


this isn't the b.net forums. In the tl guidelines, it says that your rank counts for nothing. Please reread the guidelines before making useless, shitty, mindless, douchey posts because you are an elitist asshole.

On the positive side, very well written guide OP. I think I'll show this to some of the players I'm coaching.
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