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Hi Guys!
I have huge trouble dealing with Protoss lately and I'm studying my recent Protoss replays to find my biggest mistakes to improve. But for this push I really cant figure out where it went wrong:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-174106.jpg)
So far I realize that my Ling Speed is very late, but I dont think that was the (only) reason why I couldnt stop the push. I'm wondering if my approach was wrong at all, or if I just mismanaged it. I know that I could have won with a 5RR/7RR push, but I want to know how I stop such a push on Scrap Station, where the Protoss simply can come through the backdoor if I fastexpand.
I know that a lot of you guys will tell me now, that I should have build more spines, but I couldnt build more than 2 per entrance considering my economy (in theory) and I doubt it would have stopped the Protoss anyway, since he would simply overrun me anyway and block my lings with FF so he can take out the spines first.
My rating is around 1.9k-2k diamond, so I would appreciate if someone who is better than that could tell me how to successfully stop this push with my approach (especially on maps with backdoors) or if it isnt possible what else to do.
Thanks a lot!
Regards
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Roaches, especially on creep, counter zealots pretty well. Depending on your BO, you can put down a creep tumor early on and expand it. On scrap station i dont think spine crawlers are all too viable.
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At work so I can't watch the replay. Roughly 2600 Zerg speaking here. Holding off a 4 gate is all about scouting the build early and adapting. Especially on scrap station, I like to 15 hatch, 14 pool. I scout with my 10th drone (or 12, 13th, or 14th) in order to avoid cannon rushes, see if they have one or two gas taken, and they must wait until stalker/sentry to kill your done before they place more gateways or tech. After your early drone dies, poke at entrance with lings (it's ok to sacrifice one or two for information) to check for an expansion, see if he carelessly left tech near the entrance, or spot more gateways. Around 5-6 mins in game time, I like to sacrifice an overlord if I'm still in the dark. Scrap is a great map for this because you can have overlords on all sides of his base to see the edge and choose one to sacrifice that you think has the best chance of scouting his build.
Your first 100 gas in ZvP should always go into ling speed. Typically I go 15 hatch, 14 pool and then 14 or 15 extractor (you may just go extractor after pool to be safe). You should almost always double queen when your spawning pool finishes.
After you confirm it's a 4 gate, you need to keep tabs on his unit composition (poke at front, use xel naga towers, keep overlords over ledges, etc). Against 4 gate, you should build a roach warren around 20-24 food. If he is Zlot and/or sentry heavy, you should go more roach heavy. If he is stalker heavy, you need lots of speedlings. I will almost always build one spine crawler against a 4 gate and perhaps 2 on maps with a smaller natural choke (LT, shakaris, etc).
Macro wise, to beat a 4 gate you need to get to 20 drones ASAP (with only one geyser operational for roaches) and stay on 20-23 drones for a multiple production cycles until you've successfully held off the 4 gate push. All double queen energy should go to larve inject except one creep tumor to connect main and natural.
Microwise, the lings MUST engage stalkers and the roachs/spines Need to engage the zlots. Keep speed lings to side of natural (or outside the natural) so when the zlots charge in to absorb spine/roach hits, you flank with speed lings and have them engage stalkers. While lings tear apart the stalkers, kite with your roachs against zlots (even without roach speed this can be done quite successfully on creep). If you need to bring your queen in to take a few hits from zlots, you can pull her away before she dies (she's faster than zlots on creep). Even if you lose one of your two queens and a few drones during the 4 gate, you are still usually ahead of the toss who lacks tech, an expansion, and has cut probes. Always keep the roachs on creep unless you are 100% sure you have A) enough units to win in a straight up fight and B) can easily flank with speedlings to prevent his stalkers from retreating.
Also, if you can kill the proxy pylon with a few speedlings, this essentially holds off the rush.
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The jAck from EU server is gold in 1v1 and plays toss. There is no other jAck on any other servers. Are you sure you are 2k diamond? at the end of the game you had only 2 gates and a core scouted. You need to go roach. Its a cheap building, but it lets you stop mass zealot like this. Have your lings run around and know whats up. Always have one ling outside their base so you know when they move out.
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@insurgency: yes I'm sure: http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/170057/jAck (I got like 250 bonus pool, so I would end up somewhere around 2k I guess ;-))
@others: ty 4 ur answers, I understand the theory behind it, I guess my biggest problem is the execution and my macro when I'm under pressure
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I'm a toss but looking at it, at 7:40 you had 0 roaches, 0 spines built, and no ling speed. I don't really see how the toss could have lost that unless he had nothing but stalkers and let you surround him or something.
You had an OL by his base to scout, he had no wall when he attacked, if you had some lings outside you could have sent a few just to harass his probes and make him spawn zealots there. Other than that I'd think spines and at least a warren so you "could" build roaches if needed.
His FF's didn't do much, but you still could have sent half your lings around back (he opened the rocks - so you could have flanked) so that more of them were doing damage and could theoretically take out the stalkers if he had had more than 1.
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I find 3 hatch to be incredibly good against a 4 gate (2 in main 1 at natural). I know you asked for better players than yourself so i'm sorry i can't do that, but i find this effective personally.
Early i think mass lings with small-medium roach support is good to hold off 4 gate as pure roach CAN be beaten by 4 gate sentry/stalker builds. Especially those featuring hallucinated immortals to tank. Issue always was larva, hence hatch number 3 installed specifically for that purpose, because 2 hatch i've always found myself running off fumes so to speak in larva terms to hold it off.
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The major points have been touched on a bit, but I wanted to stress your need to improve your macro mechanics and improve your scouting.
You float a lot of resources. To cite an example of it during your replay, at about 19 supply, just before your natural hatchery comes up you have 400 minerals before you spend on anything. I understand that you want to save for a queen at the natural, but it's just 150 and you could have used the earlier minerals to purchase lings for scouting, drones for mining, or even spine crawlers or overlords for any future use. Probably your best bet would have been to splurge 100 minerals on two pairs of lings for scouting purposes and control of the watch tower while using the rest on more drones.
When you engaged your opponent you should have had more warning. Leave a ling outside of their base to watch for when the army moves out and to catch a glimpse of the composition. If the first time you scout the enemy army composition is when he's moving out and you see the zealots before you start your roach warren you are in trouble. You'll have to make spine crawlers, even though you don't want that advice >.>. Overspending on spine crawlers would have been better than losing the game because all you did was mass lings.
When you engaged your opponent's army you chose to do so in a bit of a choke. At the very least it was a difficult position to surround from as was evidenced by the fact that a good chunk of your ling army got smashed against the wall by zealots and force fields. It would have been better to split your ling force and run around behind the zealots to kill stalkers and sentries and force more force fields. You could also have used this force to take out the proxy pylon if they were prevented from hitting ranged units in the back.
Finally, sometimes it's just better to abandon the natural, save your drones, and defend at your main's ramp with spines. You would have had a better position and plenty of drones to transfer when you rebuilt your expo. The Toss hadn't expanded at that point and you could have clawed back into the game.
In summation, scout more, don't float resources unless you're saving for something special like a muta flock, more spines than you need is better than less spines than you need, split your ling army to maximize it's potential, and if all else fails, let the natural hatchery go and salvage what you can in your main.
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On December 16 2010 00:09 jAck_sc2 wrote:@insurgency: yes I'm sure: http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/170057/jAck (I got like 250 bonus pool, so I would end up somewhere around 2k I guess ;-)) @others: ty 4 ur answers, I understand the theory behind it, I guess my biggest problem is the execution and my macro when I'm under pressure
Well I found another jAck that is a lot different sorry lol.
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k not like rating means anything but 2500 zerg but you wanted someone better then you to give advice.
Warpgate tech finishes at about 34 supply (no idea what time that is on the clock). So with this in mind keep sending your lings up and down the ramp to see what he's got planned.
So to counter the 4 gate if that is what he is doing make at least 2 spine crawlers and I would recommend getting a roach warren (thats what I do works great). Make some roaches + speedlings and with 2 spine crawlers you should be able to hold it off pretty handily and if he try's to expo after you kill his army well then you can just counter and win.
Also try not to forget to use larva inject when the push comes as you do want all the larva you can use so you can pump mass lings + roaches. Hope this helps you out a bit but the key to note is warpgates finish at around 34 supply (assuming you don't make a ton of lings and they die or w/e or you don't lose many drones but in a normal game).
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I've been Zealot Rushed plenty of times. Ling + some Queen micro is good against the first wave while you set up spines and a Roach Warren. I usually also grab my second gas while waiting on the Roach Warren as well. After the roach warren is finished, make roaches and send your lings out to do something more useful like keeping tabs on Protoss natural, knocking down a back door or scouting hidden expands/tech. If they send 2 more waves against you after you get out your roaches, it's usually a sign that they've over committed and you have enough Lings/Roaches to essentially free-win the match... it becomes even more lopsided when you are able to research burrow and Roach Speed, your roaches will be able to heal up faster than they can put out zealots/stalkers as you push against their ramp.
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Hey jAck, I looked at your replay and streamed it for my last episode of QuestionTime. I thought you played alright but just made some economic decisions that put you way behind at the point the 4gate got to your base. Essentially you encountered the exact reason that a 4gate is such a powerful timing push. I talked a bit about how to set yourself up to be able to hold a 4gate both unit wise and economically. This particular case there are no really easy answers but there were definitely some reasonably simple things that would make a big difference.
Heres the video: HardCorey QuestionTime #16: ZvP Surviving a zealot-sentry 4gate as Zerg
My Main Thread
Hope this helps,
-HardCorey
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Try to use banneling nest next time. Don't have to scout to see if it's really is mass zealots push. Just put down that banneling nest because lings don't do well against 4-5 zealots but 4-5 bannelings can instantly kill 4-5 zealots.
.......bannelings 50mineral 25 gas vs zealots 150mineral. Do the math  .
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On December 20 2010 13:39 whomybuddy wrote:Try to use banneling nest next time. Don't have to scout to see if it's really is mass zealots push. Just put down that banneling nest because lings don't do well against 4-5 zealots but 4-5 bannelings can instantly kill 4-5 zealots. .......bannelings 50mineral 25 gas vs zealots 150mineral. Do the math .
Blindly put down a baneling nest every game at 20 food against protoss? I'm sorry buddy, but that is fucking awful advice. And zealots are 100, not 150.
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EPT
