EPT[D] Terran Air, and Its Place in SC2 - Page 2
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12027 Posts
If you don't have enough vikings, air kills you and if you don't have enough banshees, ground kills you as although PDD works in the way it does, you can just move away from the army and force him to waste them, then you snipe the banshees and there's nothing he can do. Also, with enough Fungals you'll kill them eventually before they can do damage right? Since you can't shift viking modes while fungalled. | ||
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hoovehand
United Kingdom542 Posts
High DPS: The Banshee has some of the highest DPS against ground units of any combat unit in the game. Here are the DPS numbers against ground for all units in every race that do over 10 DPS. i think you made a critical error right here... banshee is 3 supply. if you want to compare dps of units, you surely have to take supply into account. also, you simply can't compare regular damage to splash damage. in other words, banshee damage is about average versus ground units. it's not viable because it's nigh-impossible to create a 200/200 air fleet unless you're on 4 bases versus the most passive player of all time. it's like saying zerg is unbeatable with 200/200 broodlord/corruptor... sorry but i just had to laugh when you compared banshee dps to 1 marine. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
Do you go straight to it from 2 base? Both races can easily scout and confirm your port heavy play, simply expand again, and out gas you. They can use their larger ground army to bully you from taking your 3rd. Let's do some arithmetic: 2 base gas is ~450 gas/min. That's basically 2-3 ports if you make ravens + banshees. You will also be making only 1 raven/1banshee/~45s. That means you will be creating 4 food only with your gas. AND: guess what, other races have amazing spells too. PStorm/Fungal destroy banshees/vikings trivially, and also devastate the gas starved mineral dump of marines that you will be forced to buy. ---- Theorycraft debunked. | ||
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Dyllyn
Singapore670 Posts
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
verry interesting discussion but i am wondering a bit about your dps figures wich you use to start your analysis It seems to me that you use the unupgraded dps while you basicly try to compare 3/3 upgraded armies, since upgrades scale differently for different units this could have a huge impact on the dps figures Wouldnt it be more reasonable to take the 3/3 dps figures against non specific targets? | ||
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hoovehand
United Kingdom542 Posts
On October 08 2010 20:20 GenericTerranPlayer wrote: I think i read somewhere that during blizzard's internal testing they found out 200/200 ravens are the strongest army. is that relevant here? this was true when hunter seeker had 9 range and didn't require an upgrade. plus i have a feeling it cost 100 energy, and not 125 (so each raven could launch two without delay). i think if you make any more than 1 raven you're severely gimping yourself against any standard strategy your opponent has employed. you'll lose to any versatile attack because you haven't enough gas to tech, upgrade or make an extra couple of siege tanks etc. raven costs as much gas as a thor, PDD soaks up 200-280 damage from stalkers. erm a thor would soak up 400 damage and also deal a truckload of damage itself... against standard builds, raven is only useful for detection and very careful timing pushes (pretty much the only time you would PLAN to use PDD). | ||
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Ssoulle
United Kingdom149 Posts
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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Protoss_Carrier
414 Posts
BC die to feedback and then they get kited to hell by carrier. | ||
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gr8ape
Canada302 Posts
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On October 08 2010 17:18 unaliased wrote: Except that 200/200 pheonix would crush this Vikings beat phoenixes in cost effectiveness, plus a couple of battlecruisers would utterly shut down phoenixes, mass void rays would do a lot better. As for zerg. You would have a lot of trouble beating mass infestor hydra of just mass infestor with an air army. All the z player has to do is catch a chunk of your units with a single fungal and then drop 30 (4 nearly full infestors worth) infested marines and they would hose your army unless is was 90% banshees. Growth would also make cloak ineffective. Im not saying mass air is bad. Terran air units are rediculously powerful. And while I realize that this is completely a theory discussion as the use of 200/200 air 3/3 is incredibly improbable unless you have already won the game. I think there are better things to spend your money on. Mass battlecruisers with yamato and 2 ravens would probably be more effective. Edit: additional tidbits Battlecruiser A to A with +3 weapons is 50% more damage A to S with +3 is 37.5% increased damage. | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
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Trawler
Sweden382 Posts
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Tropical Bob
United States127 Posts
On October 08 2010 18:39 Nihilnovi wrote: Don't want to shit on your parade, but feedback works on both PDD's and ravens. Also by the time you have 200/200 3/3 air, you're probably in your bed dreaming about it right after you got rolled by any 1 base play. There was an issue with Patch 1.1 or something that apparently makes Feedback not work on PDD right now. It's still intended to, but doesn't. | ||
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kawazu
United States111 Posts
Spam FG like a mad man and mop up with hydras. a 200 pop army of stalkers and ht win. PDD starts losing efficiency in higher unit numbers due to the number of shots fired. Either the stalkers blink in for some initial damage or blink out to evade PDD placement. Or you could storm/feedback everything because it works well on all Terran air. a 200 pop army of ghosts marines and thors. Emp stops all raven usage and permanently decloaks banshees. | ||
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madcow305
United States152 Posts
On October 08 2010 18:39 Nihilnovi wrote: Don't want to shit on your parade, but feedback works on both PDD's and ravens. Also by the time you have 200/200 3/3 air, you're probably in your bed dreaming about it right after you got rolled by any 1 base play. Just like Zerg Hive play with Ultra/Defiler/Crackling is a wet dream in SC1 right? There's no way there are any viable mid-game plays that allow them to get up to the number of gases needed to support Ultras and Defilers while upgrading carapace and melee from Evo Chamber, Consume and Plague, and Anabolic and Plating, right? No, Zergs figured out a way to stall until 4 base, at which point they get their high-gas units and roll you. It took 4-5 years and Savior (or was it GGPlay?) to figure out how to stall well enough, but they did manage to do it. On October 08 2010 18:52 Mizzet wrote: It's all about the transition I think, like the OP said. In theory it's pretty effective and I sometimes opt for BCs + misc air support if the game runs on very long, but it's hard to find the opportunity to transition into it and it's not really something you can definitively plan for from the start of the game. 60-70% of the time I have the opportunity to end the game far earlier with a well timed push to press my advantage. As far as the unit composition goes though, it's reasonably effective and something to keep in mind for very long games I suppose. Personally, against protoss, BCs alone on top of your regular army will usually suffice due to their lack of good answers to it other than void rays (which get one shotted by yamato cannon). Exactly, the opening and the transition are everything when you're trying to craft a lategame army. Flash's strategy in PvT allowed him to saftely expand and take a third while he macroed up an unstoppable 200/200 3/3 Mech army. Zergs regularly stall Terran in the midgame with Muta and Lurker so that they can reach 4 base and Hive, then win with Ultraling + Defiler. Part of the reason no replays or build orders are posted is because I'm not Savior, or Flash. I don't play SC2 professionally, and therefore I haven't engineered a transitional build order that allows Terrans to safely take 3 bases and get the necessary gas geysers to pump Banshee/Viking/Raven. This thread was simply a poke in the right direction, where we first recongnize that "hey, Terran air is a powerful unit composition, can we take advantage of it?" On October 08 2010 19:02 PanzerKing wrote: This is not viable. There is a reason nobody does it - it does not work. Period. It takes too much time and too many resources to build the type of army you're thinking about without being crushed by Mutas, which can be built far, far faster than T air, and which absolutely demolish Vikings and Banshees. Ravens are simply too expensive to produce in the numbers you're envisioning, especially since the PDD is static and it's radius easily escaped by Mutas. Carriers also demolish Vikings once their numbers are large enough, because the vikings have to be focus-fired and will overkill their target, while the interceptors do not overkill at all. That's putting aside the fact that you'll be overrun by any competent opponent when you attempt this massive, gas-loaded transition, or you'll miss your timing window to end the game against an opponent too crippled to exert any pressure on you. Dark Swarm's radius was also static. And yet, the entire Zerg mid-lategame strategy is to stall until they can get Defilers out, at which point the Zerg can completely blunt most Terran and Protoss aggression. And, nobody in this thread is saying that you should rush to this type of unit composition. The transitional period needs to be explored, and what build gets you to the lategame in the best position needs to be figured out. On October 08 2010 19:15 Qikz wrote: Surely this army isn't unstoppable completely, you would basically need the perfect composition or I don't think this could work. If you don't have enough vikings, air kills you and if you don't have enough banshees, ground kills you as although PDD works in the way it does, you can just move away from the army and force him to waste them, then you snipe the banshees and there's nothing he can do. Also, with enough Fungals you'll kill them eventually before they can do damage right? Since you can't shift viking modes while fungalled. That's the same as Terran Mech vs. Toss and Zerg in SC1. If you had too many Goliaths, Hydras would kill you. If you had too many tanks, Muta would kill you. If you had too many Vultures, Dragoons would kill you. Also, the point about PDD is also true for Swarm. Unintelligent Dark Swarm usage simply wasted Defiler energy, you could just move back from the Swarm and engage later. However, properly placed Swarms WIN GAMES. The same holds true for PDD, and to an extent, Seeker Missiles Also, perfect Fungal Growth is a counter to any unit composition. That doesn't mean that Zerg who reach Infestor tech always win the game. People make mistakes, Magic Box helps negate Fungals, etc. On October 08 2010 19:23 hoovehand wrote: i think you made a critical error right here... banshee is 3 supply. if you want to compare dps of units, you surely have to take supply into account. also, you simply can't compare regular damage to splash damage. in other words, banshee damage is about average versus ground units. it's not viable because it's nigh-impossible to create a 200/200 air fleet unless you're on 4 bases versus the most passive player of all time. it's like saying zerg is unbeatable with 200/200 broodlord/corruptor... sorry but i just had to laugh when you compared banshee dps to 1 marine. Transitional play. Zerg and Terran made entire strategies involving stalling until lategame in SC1, and Cool demonstrated that it is still viable on Zerg in SC2 with his multiple games won by stalling until Ultras came out. On October 08 2010 19:50 Shikyo wrote: So, why doesn't this outright die to mass corruptor, again? PDD, Vikings out-range Corrupters, etc. On October 08 2010 19:59 naventus wrote: How do you get your amazing mass air army exactly? Do you go straight to it from 2 base? Both races can easily scout and confirm your port heavy play, simply expand again, and out gas you. They can use their larger ground army to bully you from taking your 3rd. Let's do some arithmetic: 2 base gas is ~450 gas/min. That's basically 2-3 ports if you make ravens + banshees. You will also be making only 1 raven/1banshee/~45s. That means you will be creating 4 food only with your gas. AND: guess what, other races have amazing spells too. PStorm/Fungal destroy banshees/vikings trivially, and also devastate the gas starved mineral dump of marines that you will be forced to buy. ---- Theorycraft debunked. The exact way to stall until the necessary gas is acquired is not clear. I'm not a world-class player, I don't have the answer. Mutas were devastated by Thors until Magic Box was discovered, and now they're on equal footing. The same strategy can be applied to Terran air. Air vs. Storm/Fungal will be a battle of micro. Plus, with such a mobile attack force that is all airborne, why would you engage in a huge pack, instead of flanking from multiple directions, making it harder to storm you? | ||
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Snowfield
1289 Posts
On October 08 2010 18:39 Nihilnovi wrote: Don't want to shit on your parade, but feedback works on both PDD's and ravens. Also by the time you have 200/200 3/3 air, you're probably in your bed dreaming about it right after you got rolled by any 1 base play. Or we could try to keep ourself updated and realize that NO it does not work anymore Anyway How the fuck do you plan to get a great air army, with only making the most gas hungry units in the game, getting +1 upgrades, HSM, cloak etc. 2bases + 2 gas only bases? | ||
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Shadowolf
Canada12 Posts
But a possible stall tactic that might get you somewhere with this would be heavy viking harassment on overlords. if you're effective with the harassment you could artificially keep zerga number's relatively low while forcing zerga to sink larvae and mineral into overlord production. It should also screw around with zerga unit composition i.e. forcing hydra play or some kind of air counter. | ||
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