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I'm having trouble figuring out what to build early game against a terran.
T1
Zealots: Virtually useless, will get kited for eternity.
Stalkers: Very bad against Marauders, good against marines
Sentries: Obviously nice to have, but die very quickly.
So, can a T1 protoss beat a T1 terran? I think not. Well, lets try T2
T2
Immortals: Quite nice vs. marauders and tanks, but weak to marines. I like them a lot, but without a center infantry it doesn't really matter.
Void Rays: Only good against a terran who decided to build no marines.
Phoenixes: Pretty much useless until you 3 or more, useless if they build marines.
Now, I hate teching to tier 2 quickly because I fear marine marauder pushes. If I get pushed while my immortal is building, I'm kind of screwed. Forcefield can only hold for so long.
If they go straight marauder it'd be nice to have chargelots + immortals, but that's quite a lot of resources.
If they go straight marine it'd be nice to have stalke, some sentries + colossus, but it seems there's always a window they push me while my robo bay is building.
The biggest issue is marine and marauder, though.
So I ask you, TL, what's your main unit composition early game in PvT?
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Zealots, sentries and stalkers are all awful PvT individually, but combine them and they deal very well with early Terran armies. Stop looking at each unit in a vacuum.
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I'm... uh... not doing that. If they fail individually they all fail together. Zealots will still fail even with stalkers. Stalkers will still fail against marauders even with zealots.
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Zealots to take damage (or deal it if they focus fire your stalkers), stalkers to deal damage and stop kiting, sentries to split up their army and GS. GS is huge, especially vs heavy marines, don't forget it.
If you think they're all useless just watch some pro replays (White-Ra or whatever). He does plenty of stuff before charge/storm etc.
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You kinda need t2/t3 to deal with bio balls. At the very least a bunch of chargelots with good force field micro. Marauders are just so damn cheap and completely wtfpwn gateway units in general. Rly hard to deal with early on.
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Early on before they get all their infantry upgrades and medivac support gateway units are fine. And yes, you are looking at each individual unit in a vacuum. Your gateway units have synergies that allow you to deal with Terran bio: Zealots to soak up damage, Stalkers to deal damage to kiting marauders, and sentries to help vs marine damage and FF to block ramps and prevent kiting.
Same thing with Voids and Immortals. They might not be great in an undiversified army but mixed in with a good army composition they are great support. You can't both kite zealots and kill voids with marines at the same time for example since Voids outrange marines.
edit: Once they get all their upgrades and medivac support you do need things like chargelots and HTs however. Remember armor upgrades are great for your zealots vs marines.
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I agree with Skryo and Shift you need to stop looking at the unit and how effective they're by themselves... The cohesiveness of Zeos, Stalkers and Sentries is quiet good... Protoss probably have the strongest tier 1 compared to T- Marines, Maruders and Reapers and Z- Lings, Blings and Roaches.
Toss tier 1 gets even better once you transition into tier 2 not only due to the added punch of say a Immortal but their upgrades for their tier 1 units (leg speed and blink) are phenomenal.
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On August 13 2010 04:10 Narayan wrote:
Protoss probably have the strongest tier 1 compared to T- Marines, Maruders and Reapers and Z- Lings, Blings and Roaches.
lol, your post was fine until this
terran has the strongest tier 1 by so far it's not even in the same dimension as P and Z
and to answer the original question: you probably want to tech unless ur countering a specific composition. sentry for forcefield with 3:2 ratio of stalker/zealot is good vs most any composition. forcefielding ramp is good to allow yourself to tech. pure stalker with a sentry for guardian shield is pretty good vs only marine.
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The fact that you say Zealots are worthless just shows you have no idea how to use them. People have all ready said it, but they're right: sure individually they may not work, but as a group it is easy to deal with early terran MM pushes.
When you engage, sentries FF behind the MM. Oh look, suddenly there is no more kiting and you'll salughter his whole army. Zealots are good against mauraders (if you use FF), stalkers are good against marines, and you want sentries either way. If it's only mauraders you only want mainly zealots and sentries, use FF, micro well and no problem. If it's only marines you want mainly stalkers and sentries, use GS, micro well and use a few zealots to soak up damage. If it's a mix, obviously you want a mix.
The fact that you said forcefield can only hold for so long means you're using it wrong. Terran almost always charge into your base. FF behind them, kill them, ???, profit. Don't use it to stop them from enterting while your zealots just sit around looking pretty. The only reason you'd want to do that is if the push showed up when you didn't have anywhere near enough units to fight them. If that's the case, you'll lose anyways when FF wears off, and you'll want to focus on getting more units earlier in future games. Kiting works well mainly in huge open areas, so it's not where you want to engage them. Fight them in your base, their base, anywhere that they don't have a 360 degree range of motion.
Teching to robo is obviously really nice. You just want a good mix. Unless they're doing some all in push, gate cyber gate robo should let you get to robo in a reasonable time, while still having a good number of gateway units. That's what I usually do if I scout some mixed MM push. I tend to get immortals over colossus, since I find most terran go marauder heavy. But if they're marine heavy you are correct, colossus would be the way to go.
To sum up. If they come before T2, FF well and with good micro you should live. Tech to T2 if you can to get some good support for your gateway army. Either way, gateway units should form the core of your force, and you should adjust them depending on how far they lean one way to either marines or marauders.
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On August 13 2010 02:32 sjschmidt93 wrote:
I'm... uh... not doing that. If they fail individually they all fail together. Zealots will still fail even with stalkers. Stalkers will still fail against marauders even with zealots.
lol that's what I thought when I first started playing... hehe old memories
However, as you start to compose ur army based on what the enemy seems to be making, you will come to realize that zealots are extremely useful meat sheilds. I find zealots to be useful for 2 purposes.
1. While mauroders are shooting zealots, stalkers can get many shots off. If the mauroders go for stalkers, zealots will deal lots of damage.
2. even if mauroders are able to shoot some zealots down, ur opponent will be concerned about micro whereas u can focus on macro. During that time, make a probe or two and warp in another round of units to occupy ur opponent!
If the opponent goes pure mauroder, i like to build a few sentries and stalkers and block the ramp. Then, i go for void rays. GG right there.
If the situation gets out of hand, pull about 5 probes off the line with a couple of sentries to fire at the mauroders.
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Lol at this guy.
T1 Terran get roflstomped by T1 Protoss in an even battle. Guardian shield absolutely screws marauders and marines, Forcefield prevents them from kiting, and the attack power of Zealots+Stalkers clearly outweighs the power of MM. I will admit that without sentries and decent micro of sentries, Terran wins the match up.
MM only becomes good once they get concussive and stimpacks, but if they beeline straight towards those up grades, you can easily demolish them with numbers.
Oh, and Protoss can easily stop a T1 push on maps with small ramps; wait for half/a fourth their force to come through, then throw down a forcefield in between the groups and stomp the ones that came through. You want to go stalker heavy if you're going to do this, since the ones at the bottom of the ramp will be able to hit any zealots you have at the top.
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How many sentries are you guys mixing in your T1? At 100 gas I always feel like they really delay my tech alot by getting them. Ive had some success at the low diamond level with 1 gateway then 1 robotics, pump a couple immortals out before the 50 food push, then add more gateways (ive been pumping nonstop from one gate and supplementing with immortals). My best success is with void ray build but, ironically, I feel its pretty weak on maps like DO just because the ground distance is SO far that keeping a presence outside their ramp can be tough.
Anyways, you guys that use T1 against terran, how many sentries are you building on average? How do you make sure you dont fall behind or are you able to hold your expansion with these units to make up for lost time?
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On August 13 2010 05:32 Tennessee wrote:
MM only becomes good once they get concussive and stimpacks, but if they beeline straight towards those up grades, you can easily demolish them with numbers.
how is this true? both upgrades cost 150/150, the cost of one marauder.
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On August 13 2010 04:39 MercilessMonkey wrote:
The fact that you said forcefield can only hold for so long means you're using it wrong. Terran almost always charge into your base. FF behind them, kill them, ???, profit.
You have, very obviously, never played a PvT. Or at least against a Terran who knows how to, you know, macro properly.
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On August 13 2010 08:02 blagoonga123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 05:32 Tennessee wrote:
MM only becomes good once they get concussive and stimpacks, but if they beeline straight towards those up grades, you can easily demolish them with numbers. how is this true? both upgrades cost 150/150, the cost of one marauder.
A. Include the tech lab cost/number of upgrades gotten.
B. Don't question me.
C. I don't know dude, whatever I do works well for me, maybe I just have better composition of units/micro them better. But if food is equal, I never lose a T1 fight of MM v ZSE. Guardian Shield+Forcefield are just too powerful.
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The key for me is forcefielding behind the marauders to negate the kiting micro and the concussive shell upgrade.
Huk showed that beautifully vs. QXC
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On August 13 2010 11:44 NovaTheFeared wrote:
The key for me is forcefielding behind the marauders to negate the kiting micro and the concussive shell upgrade.
Yeah, that really is the key to early game PvT. As long as you have 2 or 3 sentries you should be able to throw down enough forcefields. Get your sentries early so that they can get enough energy.
Zealots are very strong against Marauders, but only if they can actually attack them. That's where charge and forcefields come in.
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If terran wants to attack you early on, be glad, that means their mid game push is that much weaker, meanwhile you'll have storm / colossus.
The trick to staying alive in tvp early on is using your first 2 stalkers to keep tabs on the terran and slowly chip away at their health as they aproach, retreat to your ramp, let him come up. FF the ramp and rape him with zealots + guardian shield.
I usually follow up with charge to be able to fight in the open and storm (timing depends on how much agression the terran is willing to throw at you.
If he's massing i would recommend delaying your expo a little bit until you get storm or colossus if you went heavy robo. Even with a full zealot surround from 360 degrees the ball's dps is too high to deal with just gateway units later on.
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i feel like you can't rely on sentry's FF to help you win all-out engagements unless you get the sentries early as you add gates. otherwise it's kinda bad advice to people who are trying to tech to tier 2 while holding off a timing attack..
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Zealots: Virtually useless, will get kited for eternity.
Stalkers: Very bad against Marauders, good against marines
Please don't undervalue Zealot and Stalker. Zealot take a lot of shots, and if not kited, do much damage. When Zealots are kited, Stalker get in hits without dieing terribly. When Zealots die, Stalker can retreat, until you can use more Zealot.
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EPT
