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On March 26 2010 04:08 Newguy wrote:
I don't think there is much benefit of reverting them if any, because warp gates have a cooldown that is significantly lower than unit build times, for example, if player A and player B both have 4 warp gates, both warp in one round of units, then player A reverts them to gateways, chrono boosts all of them, and puts 4 units on the build list, while player B is waiting for the warp gate cooldown, then both players will get the second round of units out at about the same time, and the time it takes to turn the normal gates back into warp gates for player As next round of production is equal to the time it takes for player Bs warp gates to cooldown again, so both players get round 3 out at about equal times also, etc. I'm not positive on the timing of cooldowns and chrono-boosted gateway build times, but I'm guessing the timings work out so close to equal that there is basically no advantage whatsoever in ever doing this.
Warp gates have their unit CD 10 seconds less then normal gateways build. Changing from warp gates to gateways and so forth takes only 3 seconds. In your example, player A will have his second round of units 3 seconds later then player B (because he used chrono boost to negate the WGs 10 seconds advantage), but after 3 additional seconds he will warp in round 3 while player B will still have to wait 17 seconds for it (in case of zealots).
Edit: ninjaed by brocoli, I thought that changing in both directions takes only 3 seconds, I'll check that now ingame.
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timing when 3rd zeal wave starts to be built for both players: assuming absurdely fast players and that liquipedia is right. (33 seconds to build Zeals from Gateways, 23(+5) to build them from Warpgates, 55 seconds to build Templar from Gateway, 45(+5) seconds to warp-in Templar from Warpgates, 10 seconds to Transform to Warpgate, 3 seconds to Transform to Gateway)
Zealots:
Without trick: 2x23+1 = 47
With trick: 3+33+10+1 = 47 -- 0'' net gain at the cost of later 2nd wave warped at gateway, and APM.
HT > Zeal:
Without trick: 23+45+1 = 69
With trick: 3+33+10+1 = 47 -- 22'' net gain at the cost of later Zeals warped at gateway, and APM.
Edit: The "magical" warp cooldown for zealots, and the presence of a seemingly useless Transform to Gateway button is evidence to me that this trick was purposely put into the game. 22 seconds is almost the build time for 1 zealot.
What this trick does is essentially build any warpgate unit at the speed of zealot warping, given all those Ifs.
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I checked now, so the 10 seconds switch time from gateway to WG is correct, but as brocoli has shown, you still get the benefit if you are not building only zealots.
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no i don't see any reason why anyone would switch from WG to GW right now, maybe when blizzard "fixes" the WG the reason might change but right now any toss like has to upgrade to WG if they plan on using ground units a lot.
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On March 26 2010 04:13 Chill wrote:
I wish there was some tension in the warpgates vs gateway decision. But as you said, warpgates are ridiculously cheap and better in every sense. I almost think a warpgate should build units SLOWER than a standard gateway.
ditto, the fact that they warp units in wherever there is pylon power shouild be the advantage. Producing units more quickly doesn't really make sense to me because that isn't what I thought the point of warpgates was. I'd be fine if they made them at the same rate though.
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I really don't see why people want to favor gateway production at all in the first place; Warp gates are like 15 times as much fun to use.
Rallying zeals using a gates, however, gives you the bonus of only needing to hotkey your gates and press z to get zealot reinforcements for an early proxy or speedlot push. Warpgates, by contrast, would force your attention away from the attack.
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Perhaps they really left in the option mainly for the weaker players. I mean, you have to go to a pylon and place each unit individually, which sometimes can create problems when there are already some units standing around. That might not be a relevant effort for a good player, but it is a lot more distracting than just pressing a number and (repeatedly) a letter while maneuvering your army around, without having to take the screen off of it, especially during battles. In fact the OP just gave me the idea that good old gateways can spare me the hassle, which I find brilliant. :D
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personally i think the OP already stated enough of a reason to be able to swap back and forthe between warp gates and gateways. Warpgates require more attention and APM compared to gateways. When late game runs around and tons of crap is going everywhere and you have expansions left and right while trying to stop opponents from taking stuff, it detracts from the faster build time and neccessary time to place unit spawns with warpgates, however gateways just sends you back to 4zsszszszszte or whatever with minimal apm usage. That in itself is sufficient enough to keep warp gates in. Not everyone in the world is bisu and know "o hey, its been 25 seconds, time to warp in again."
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 26 2010 05:58 Vestige wrote:
personally i think the OP already stated enough of a reason to be able to swap back and forthe between warp gates and gateways. Warpgates require more attention and APM compared to gateways. When late game runs around and tons of crap is going everywhere and you have expansions left and right while trying to stop opponents from taking stuff, it detracts from the faster build time and neccessary time to place unit spawns with warpgates, however gateways just sends you back to 4zsszszszszte or whatever with minimal apm usage. That in itself is sufficient enough to keep warp gates in. Not everyone in the world is bisu and know "o hey, its been 25 seconds, time to warp in again."
It's really not much of a burden to use warpgates. Yes, you need to place the unit but it's seriously not a big deal to slam left click while you slam unit hotkeys.
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On March 26 2010 00:04 kme wrote:
There is a benefit if you warp units with WGs and then instantly revert them to normal gates. Then start producing units normally (skipping the WG CD) and when they are finished, revert back to WGs and warp in. This way you get a faster production rate.
On March 26 2010 04:59 brocoli wrote:
HT > Zeal:
Without trick: 23+45+1 = 69
With trick: 3+33+10+1 = 47 -- 22'' net gain at the cost of later Zeals warped at gateway, and APM.
That is insane.
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On March 26 2010 04:13 Chill wrote:
I wish there was some tension in the warpgates vs gateway decision. But as you said, warpgates are ridiculously cheap and better in every sense. I almost think a warpgate should build units SLOWER than a standard gateway.
Making it slower would severely hurt Protoss. The biggest thing that keeps Protoss even remotely close to Terran MULE's/Reactor Cores and Zerg Spawning Larvae is the fact that warping in units from the Gateway takes so little time. If it took longer to warp them in they would fall even farther behind in the macro department, and Protoss is struggling enough as it is.
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Why should there be a decision between gateways vs warpgates? Why can't it just be an upgrade, it's not like it's broken as of now and I personally think it's an extremely refreshing and awesome ability that works to set the races apart (something which the game really needs now that Terran glass cannon identity got butchered). You'll always want an orbital command or a PF as a terran, why should it be any different for P?
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I found a situation a while back where switching can actually be beneficial. Note that when I say "Warp in," that means the cooldown AFTER warping, rather than the 5 seconds to actually finish warping.
Let's say you want to build a High Templar and a Zealot, and you currently have a Warpgate. High Templar take 55 seconds to build, but only 45 seconds to warp in; likewise, Zealots take 33 seconds to build, but 23 seconds to warp in. Transfer from GW to WG is 10 seconds, reverse is 3.
Therefore, if you guild a High Templar while in WarpGate mode and IMMEDIATELY revert to GateWay, you can build a Zealot (the HT will finish warping in halfway during the transformation). If you didn't transform, you would have to wait 45 seconds to warp in any other unit (like the Zealot). However, since you are transforming, you take 3 seconds to transform, and immediately build a Zealot, taking 33 seconds, 36 seconds total. After the Zealot finishes, you revert back to WarpGate. This entire process took 46 seconds for both the HT and Zealot to finish, AND you're able to warp in a new unit.
If you DIDN'T do the trick, you would have warped the High Templar, and 45 seconds later, warped in the Zealot. Now, that means you took 50 seconds for both units to actually finish. For those who say the 5 seconds shouldn't count: if you discount the 5 seconds it takes to complete the warp in, you end up with 45 seconds total. ZOMG better? No. You aren't able to warp in a new unit for 23 seconds (or 18 seconds after the Zealot finishes)
Note that this also works with Dark Templar.
This isn't the only example, however; for example, if you built a Stalker and a Zealot w/o the trick, it would take you 32 seconds, with a 23 second wait afterward, taking you 37 seconds total to actually finish both units. With the trick, it takes you 36 seconds to finish both units, yet the change back into WG makes it a total of 46 seconds to be back at square one. This may look bad, but you are again able to immediately warp in a new unit. If we extend the example to include the 3rd unit, you can pop out a total of 3 units (Stalker + Zealot + Something) without the trick in 60 seconds, and 51 seconds with the trick (all including the time to finish the warp in).
In all examples other than the Templar + Zealot one, you will get the second unit out later, yet get the third unit much quicker; nearly instantaneously. You have to weigh them yourselves to see which one is "better."
That said, the Templar example is the optimal one, getting both the second and the third unit out quicker.
A small list, if you guys are wondering:
Without the Trick (Standard Warpgate)
Templar + Zealot = 50 seconds to finish Zealot, 73 seconds for third unit
Stalker/Sentry + Zealot = 37 seconds to finish Zealot, 60 seconds for third unit
Templar + Stalker/Sentry = 50 seconds to finish St/Se, 92 seconds for third unit
With the Trick (Reverting WarpGate - ReGate?)
Templar + Zealot = 46 seconds to finish Zealot, 51 seconds for third unit
Stalker/Sentry + Zealot = 46 seconds to finish Zealot, 51 seconds for third unit
Templar + Stalker/Sentry = 55 seconds to finish St/Se, 60 seconds for third unit
Conclusion? In the long run, ReGating is much more beneficial. If, however, you are in a situtation where 5-10 seconds will decide the game, just Warpgating is fine; however, you need to decide 40-50 seconds in advance anyway, so...Protoss better start practicing 
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Agree. The advantages of WG should be faster building time compared to WG. The WG gives you the abillity to spawn your units everywhere. Then we would need a button to choose between one or another.
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Posted this in the Tricks, Tips, Tactics thread, since it has to be listed there, and I couldn't find it there already.
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EPT
