Update: Middle Kingdom is posted on the PlayXP map forums as well. If you can read or write Korean, please visit TL and PlayXP and help our communities share awesome maps!
This map Middle Kingdom is all about the third base:
Click for the hi-res version.
The mains are 25.5 CCs. There is plenty more space to build between the natural and third if you are a huge player and need gigantic bases. No really, there is extra space there for actual base building on purpose.
Early on the natural plays like many familiar maps, but moving on to a third base is where things get really interesting. You can take the nearby 6 mineral/1-gas base and essentially expand your main onto the middle elevation area there.
What's so fun about that? The third base is ultra close so you can make some nasty moves with 5 gas relatively early. Or you can go for one of the normal 8/2 center bases as your third, and pick up the 6/1 base as a fourth later on.
Middle Kingdom certainly supports 1-base and fast expand openers. And three-base turtle-to-200 is boring and silly if it is too safe, so Middle Kingdom intentionally makes it hard to just sit behind a tiny wall on 3-base:
The third base resources are practically hanging off the cliff! All races can harass the living daylights out of this base from the low ground with vision to force a turtling player to respond. (Roaches, too!)
So what is the strongest way to defend the third base? Play like a champion and take the fight to your opponent to control the map. Take bases with impunity! Or grab 3-base and work towards 200 supply but also execute brilliant high-tech ambushes when your opponent tries to kill the third from below. This map wants you to be your most amazing!
Rush Distances The map is mid-to-large, not quite as big as Tal'Darim but still pretty big.
Cross Positions: main2main is 174.9 nat2nat is 157.0
Close Spawns: main2main is 145.5 nat2nat is 127.1
The Tower and how-not-to-make-a-boring,-obvious-place-to-rally-everything... The watchtower in the center is situated in a tight web of passages to discourage large armies from just sitting on it. If you a-move a ball or particularly platoon of siege tanks then half of it will be wiggling around in the back. Play smart! Use scouts!
Interesting. My first thought is that I like the contrast in the different levels of terrain. I like the monlyth/mar sara tileset. All the stuff around the edges is nice as well. And it isn't overflowing with trees like a lot of the custom maps. Aesthetically, very well done. I'm not a huge fan of the symbols, though.
Structurally, it is rotational spawns, so it's imbalanced. Never good.
The natural is very close to the ramp so it will be ridiculously easy to wall off there. Having the third base by the edge of the cliff might make for some interesting games, it would probably be fine and not encourage too much turtling.
Can you pop reapers or drop up onto those towers by the third, or are they unpathable?
Sure the natural has an easy wall to the ramp, but the far side of it, including both geysers, intentionally has an open space that must also be walled or defended, too.
Those tiny towers are pathable, you can put a reaper or marine or hydra on it, sure.
On May 28 2011 00:43 FlopTurnReaver wrote: Trying to find the swastika right now.
Just waiting for the version without the ugly base now
Also good job with the name. Like a real Korean!
1) The swastika is very cleverly designed into the map because I'm a monster and hateful which is why I labor to make maps for the community for no compensation, except, apparently, for your delightful ridicule.
2) Fine, ugly base make-over incoming!
3) Did I achieve a "SlayerS Alicia"-caliber naming thing here? The Middle Kingdom is a high point in Egyptian history... Screw it: I'm changing the name to "Creation Sigh"
Actually the high grounds look kinda like bones so you should paint a skull in the middle and call it something like "Pirate Desert" or "Pirate Harbour".
Obviously you'd have to change the map bounds into a harbour like environment
Can't unsee the crossbones now. Nice tileset, as well. The height contrast is great. Anyway, I'm all over this kind of map design. This map should have some exxciting games. ♥
I am not convinced the third minerals work the way you want. Sure, every race can harass those, but it feels like terrans > protoss > zerg in that regard. I am especially worried that a zerg just can not properly defend that base. But at the same time, that base is not optional, you have to take it.
But this is just a gut reaction could be quite wrong .
On May 28 2011 00:12 Gfire wrote: Structurally, it is rotational spawns, so it's imbalanced. Never good.
Now I suddenly understand why BW is so impalanced. Because of the rotational maps!!
On May 28 2011 00:12 Gfire wrote: The natural is very close to the ramp so it will be ridiculously easy to wall off there.
What? That makes it sound like it's a bad thing oO Good job dim<*)))>< Trying to find the swastika right now. Just waiting for the version without the ugly base now Also good job with the name.
Like a real Korean!
;-p
on topic: Love the wave effect. Each "base" or battleground is about the same proportions and they look like intersected waves, no?+ Show Spoiler +
i confess my wheeling whimpering guile might be at work but still ...
Love the ocre (orangy) color To wrap it all up, i'll just mention the center mapmaker secret symbols+ Show Spoiler +
[mapmaker(s) checks to see if Barrin is dancing again]
On May 28 2011 01:52 Sirion wrote: I am not convinced the third minerals work the way you want. Sure, every race can harass those, but it feels like terrans > protoss > zerg in that regard. I am especially worried that a zerg just can not properly defend that base. But at the same time, that base is not optional, you have to take it.
But this is just a gut reaction could be quite wrong .
Don't you feel that tanks and/or bunkers and/or turrets and/or planetaryis always stronger than cannons plus units is always stronger than zerg anything when defending any base?
Zerg defends bases by having a lot of them, spreading them out so you'd have to do a lot of marching to kill them, and engaging your army in the worst possible moment on the way there. Terran should be able to easily kill this third base if Zerg is just hiding up there waiting for Ultras or something equally silly.
And why is that base "not optional"? Play fierce and take the next one out, or something across the map.
On May 28 2011 01:52 Sirion wrote: I am not convinced the third minerals work the way you want. Sure, every race can harass those, but it feels like terrans > protoss > zerg in that regard. I am especially worried that a zerg just can not properly defend that base. But at the same time, that base is not optional, you have to take it.
But this is just a gut reaction could be quite wrong .
Don't you feel that tanks and/or bunkers and/or turrets and/or planetary is always stronger than cannons plus units is always stronger than zerg anything when defending any base?
Zerg defends bases by having a lot of them, spreading them out so you'd have to do a lot of marching to kill them, and engaging your army in the worst possible moment on the way there. Terran should be able to easily kill this third base if Zerg is just hiding up there waiting for Ultras or something equally silly.
And why is that base "not optional"? Play fierce and take the next one out, or something across the map.
On May 28 2011 02:29 dimfish wrote: And why is that base "not optional"? Play fierce and take the next one out, or something across the map.
That seems to go against everything in the op... I mean, wasn't the map designed for Zerg to have a good third base option? It's fine if you have to take a further base, in theory, but that's not very in line with the goals of the map, it seems.
Edit: Well, you did talk a bit about the other third base options, but you made it sound like it was a greedy idea, and I don't think it's fair to expect players to take such risks because there is no other option. I think risks should be available but not forced.
All based on what you've said though. Looking at the map itself, I'm not sure how it will play out. I shouldn't read so much into the little inconsistencies in your text, but should probably judge the map by itself.
On May 28 2011 02:29 dimfish wrote: And why is that base "not optional"? Play fierce and take the next one out, or something across the map.
That seems to go against everything in the op... I mean, wasn't the map designed for Zerg to have a good third base option? It's fine if you have to take a further base, in theory, but that's not very in line with the goals of the map, it seems.
The map is designed to have a third base really fast as a possibility for any race. But it's killable, even for Zerg. And it's optional in the sense that you can take it (at some point) as your third OR you could skip it for the next, richer base outward. Those are just some options, so I think the base is "optional" and I disagree that it is "not optional" as in "mandatory."
On May 28 2011 02:36 Gfire wrote: Edit: Well, you did talk a bit about the other third base options, but you made it sound like it was a greedy idea, and I don't think it's fair to expect players to take such risks because there is no other option. I think risks should be available but not forced.
Think of it this way. On maps where there are three bases, say behind one choke, players have the option of turtling on three bases and waiting until 200 supply to even leave. Such a map doesn't force you turtle, but its an option and frankly when its too safe then it will support some really boring games.
On the other hand, a map with no nearby third totally prohibits a quick-3-base strategy all together. You have to play some other way to succeed, whether its 2-base timing or using some fierce tactics to divert attention from your far-off, exposed third+.
That brings me to the design of Middle Kingdom. Here I'm offering 3-base as a possiblity that is juicy, but not SUPER safe. You can stay on 3-base (as any race) and your opponent (of any race) has many clear opportunities to also grab 3-base or get 3-better bases, or attack turtler or whatever.
I want this map to support a wide variety of styles, but only in spectacular fashion.
Yes. There are some good dynamics. With a little thought, I do agree, I think this map has a nice balance where a lot of strategies might be used and would probably play quite well.
Thinking about the third bases a bit more, I am concerned about positional imbalance. I feel spawning clockwise of you're opponent would make it more difficult to hold a third. I think the opponent would have an easier time expanding.
I do like the central part with the watchtower, btw.
I wish I was on my main computer so I could open the picture up in photoshop and draw stuff on it to show off my ideas better but I'll try to explain this one that I think is major first.
I hate hate hate hate hate, yes, really hate, the small narrow paths that go around the 3rd. (is we are looking at the 8o clock base then im talking about the narrow path at the south that wraps around the 3rd and has the 2 wide ramp.) I think what you should do is cut off the third, put a 2 or 3 wide ramp where the third is to the low ground. Then tuck the thirds away in the corners. It would still be safe because your third is now in the corner, but now there isn't that very narrow hallway that wraps around your bases.
That hallway just completely reminds me of 1.2 shakarus when if T and Z spawned in horizontal positions the terran could just push thru the little narrow path and pretty much own the zerg. The same can be said here with the exception they'll be able to sit in that narrow path and siege the 3rd and the natural. The same could be said with protoss and collosus + forcefields.
If you have no idea what I'm saying then bleh @ you. I'll try to get on my main computer a little later and mess around with photoshop on this map to give you some more ideas though.
Texture colors are fine although I kind of dislike how the highest ground is organic dirt look, then it goes down into manmade structures, then it goes back into organic. Even though it makes the colors pop, I don't think it looks that realistic. If you want to keep it how it is then I'd like to see some more blending of the sand/dirt onto the manmade concrete to make it feel a little more natural.
You need more doodads!!! Especially around the whole outside of the map. All the manmade cliffs are completely blank!
Also 1 thing to note, make sure none of the main mineral/gasses are siegable from the 4ths.
So all-in-all I like the base layouts (besides the 3rds) and I do like the texturing because it does make certain areas of the map pop out.
Sorry if this sounds kind of harsh, lol but hey, you asked for feedback! :D
On May 28 2011 04:17 SidianTheBard wrote: That hallway just completely reminds me of 1.2 shakarus when if T and Z spawned in horizontal positions the terran could just push thru the little narrow path and pretty much own the zerg. The same can be said here with the exception they'll be able to sit in that narrow path and siege the 3rd and the natural. The same could be said with protoss and collosus + forcefields.
What about on XNC? Everyone excepts the hallways on that map, and they are high ground, but better for sieging the third. And the third is blocked by rocks on that map. I don't know is it's that much of an issue, except maybe for one of the players in close positions (as I was saying before.) \
Texture colors are fine although I kind of dislike how the highest ground is organic dirt look, then it goes down into manmade structures, then it goes back into organic. Even though it makes the colors pop, I don't think it looks that realistic. If you want to keep it how it is then I'd like to see some more blending of the sand/dirt onto the manmade concrete to make it feel a little more natural.
I don't know, I don't think realism is that important and I think it looks clean and cool.
You need more doodads!!! Especially around the whole outside of the map. All the manmade cliffs are completely blank!
Totally disagree, I think a lot of maps are overwhelmed with doodads and I really love how this one is more simple. I am so sick of players hiding pylons behind tall doodads and stuff. The doodads really need to be simple and well placed in order to not affect gameplay with their visuals.
Some more down on the very low ground would be okay, though, that might look better. But I don't think any more on the main map is necessary.
On May 28 2011 02:42 WniO wrote: reminds me alot of sanctuarium, i like how its more open and the texturing looks pretty good.
I'll take a comparison to sanctuarium any day, funcmode kicked ass on that one.
On May 28 2011 04:17 SidianTheBard wrote:I hate hate hate hate hate, yes, really hate, the small narrow paths that go around the 3rd. (is we are looking at the 8o clock base then im talking about the narrow path at the south that wraps around the 3rd and has the 2 wide ramp.) I think what you should do is cut off the third, put a 2 or 3 wide ramp where the third is to the low ground. Then tuck the thirds away in the corners. It would still be safe because your third is now in the corner, but now there isn't that very narrow hallway that wraps around your bases.
No, amigo, I won't change that! That's exactly what gives this map its character. The third is supposed to be snuggled tight like a baby kitten to its sister kitten, the natural, except with this long, ominous arm reaching around and between them, BRINGING POSSIBLE DANGER LOOK OUT KITTENS!
On May 28 2011 04:17 SidianTheBard wrote: That hallway just completely reminds me of 1.2 shakarus when if T and Z spawned in horizontal positions the terran could just push thru the little narrow path and pretty much own the zerg. The same can be said here with the exception they'll be able to sit in that narrow path and siege the 3rd and the natural. The same could be said with protoss and collosus + forcefields.
Um. Completely different? On old Shakuras the top and bottom paths lead into the main base from the side. Let me point this out, if you want to position a single ground army on old Shakuras to protect against a slow tank push, it was really hard because you'd want to be standing out below the natural and its a long walk back up into the back of the main to meet Terran if they're coming that way. AND the distance between the Terran main and the Zerg on horizontal spawns (minus rocks) is like a skip away. Meaning there is a very, very brief window in which Zerg can attack the Terran main at his front door to turn the slow mech army around.
On Middle Kingdom you have much less area than that to cover for three bases, but not too easy. And every main-to-third is still a long walk compared to old Shakuras horizontal positions, so you can and should abuse slow mech armies by at least threatening to counter attack when they leave home.
So yeah, I'm cool with this layout as is, in this regard.
On May 28 2011 04:17 SidianTheBard wrote:Texture colors are fine although I kind of dislike how the highest ground is organic dirt look, then it goes down into manmade structures, then it goes back into organic. Even though it makes the colors pop, I don't think it looks that realistic. If you want to keep it how it is then I'd like to see some more blending of the sand/dirt onto the manmade concrete to make it feel a little more natural.
You need more doodads!!! Especially around the whole outside of the map. All the manmade cliffs are completely blank!
See GFire's comments, I liked his explanations. And one more thing about doodads especially with the outer walls: is there a rule that a good map has N doodads per cell? Why waste map load time and frames per second on stuff that is at the very edge of the map, when I can still make it visually interesting by "drawing" with cliffs? You'll notice I spent a lot of time making those 3-tier cliffs into non-repeating designs all over so they are cool, but not cluttered.
On May 28 2011 04:17 SidianTheBard wrote: Also 1 thing to note, make sure none of the main mineral/gasses are siegable from the 4ths.
So all-in-all I like the base layouts (besides the 3rds) and I do like the texturing because it does make certain areas of the map pop out.
Sorry if this sounds kind of harsh, lol but hey, you asked for feedback! :D
Thanks to everyone with comments, I very much want your honest opinions and suggestions!
And I made sure the main resources weren't siegable from the 4th during development, but I'd better check that I didn't shift things around too much since then. I'll confirm when I get home.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wA3Gp.jpg)
Click for the hi-res version.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZGNwS.png)
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QwMfc.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.cacaouete.net/tl/FlopDim01.jpg)
I'll try to get on my main computer a little later and mess around with photoshop on this map to give you some more ideas though.
