Though few can argue against Innovation's mechanical prowess or against his dominance over the last few months, the latest in a long line of "best player in the world" suffered his first truly one-sided defeat in a multigame series since the release of Heart of the Swarm. MaruPrime unceremoniously stomped him into the ground with three straight cheeses, closing out the series by plainly outplaying Innovation on the final map in a little over an hour in total, breaks included.
As Innovation himself once said, once someone gets inside his head, his chances of coming back into the series start looking bad. He proved this in part against Soulkey, but the StarCraft II old-timer Maru was the first player to give STX Terran a real beating – after an unfortunate first game where Maru's cloaked banshee opening dealt enough damage that Innovation was completely unprepared to fend off the follow-up 1-1-1. Although banshee openings have become increasingly popular again, especially with the recent punch in the face all hellbat-loving Terrans (Innovation being one such Terran), the specific build chosen by Maru in game 1 came into being long before KeSPA switched over to StarCraft II. One can argue that KeSPA players have all the experience they need to battle any player, but Maru certainly seemed to take advantage of both a much larger repertoire of builds in this series and much superior preparation.
Much reminiscent of an OSL final from ages past, Innovation found himself caught off-guard, thinking "he won't do it again" as he went for yet another macro-centric build on Bel'shir Vestige. Although he was right in the way that Maru didn't go for another banshee build with a 1-1-1 follow-up, it didn't prevent him from dying to Maru's next trick: a proxy starport. Dropping hellions and marines inside Innovation's base was the first stepping stone to a very confused robot, and as Innovation realized that he had been duped, two more medivacs full of units appeared and there was little the STX Terran could do but GG.
What do you think if you've just been cheesed twice in a very important best-of-seven semifinal? Well, naturally, he won't do it again, right?Wrong. Opting for another macro build, Innovation went CC first on the OSL-exclusive map Anaconda and Maru, with no reason to doubt his build choices now, opted for a double 11/11 rax right outside Innovation's base. Now, we've all seen players like Flash and MKP hold proxy raxes with little more than nothing in terms of defense, and Innovation should be able to do the same, right? Wrong again. Everything that could have gone wrong for Innovation did, as he missed the raxes with his initial scouting SCV, an inch out of vision, the second time around. By the time he got into Maru's base and figured out what was going on, he was already dead and down 0-3.
With Innovation down 0-3 and comparisons to the triple bunker rush finals between Yellow and Boxer everywhere, there seemed to be no doubting what Maru would do next. But lo and behold, having inflicted enough damage to Innovation's mind, Maru went for the same macro-oriented build as Innovation, with a quick CC and a factory coming down soon after - decision that seemed odd at first glance considering Innovation's aptitude for macro games. However, being inside the head of your opponent has its advantages, and Maru soon began to pick at the holes in Innovation's armor, killing numerous marines in the middle of the map and gaining every small advantage possible. One crucial engagement in the center of Gwangalli Beach quickly snowballed out of control in Maru's favor, and with superior hellion numbers and marine/medivac support, he marched right up to Innovation's front door and won the series.
No one doubts Innovation's insane mechanical prowess or that he is almost unmatched in macro games in at least two of three match-ups, but what Maru truly brought to the table in last night's matches is what usually only Mvp truly brings: vastly superior preparation. There was no so-called honor in Maru's play, he played to win and he played to his own strengths as well as he could have – in three out of four games he didn't even get a second base, instead opting to both out-think and beat his opponent, still a relative newcomer compared to the veteran Maru, with superior experience. Innovation failed to adapt, barely changing up his play at all, and so HotshotBogusGG was forced to surrender the semifinal to the guy who's never before been past the Round of 16 in his three years in StarCraft II. His match against Maru will hopefully have taught Innovation that although he's an absolute beast mechanically, he is still lacking in the strategic department, and he will need more time before he can feel safe in the mirror match-up where a trio like the Prime Terrans can dig out a bunch of tricks to kill you.
With a spot at the Season Finals guaranteed for all semifinalists and the Proleague Finals coming up for Innovation, we're sure he doesn't feel too bad, but losing to both Bomber and Maru in the span of just a few weeks can't feel right for the guy who sits at the top of the StarCraft world.
Excellent writeup as usual, thank you! But if I may add a correction, the triple bunker rush between Boxer and Yellow happened in the semifinals, not the finals itself.
YES! Maru can win it all now because Bomber's law will be in full effect once he destroys Rain. Honestly I would rather Rain win it all, but I don't see him beating Bomber.
I'm not convinced Innovation is the best player in the world anymore. His tendency to die to every early attack he faces should prevent the title of "The Best" for being applied to him. At the very least it should make the top of SC 2 a much more crowded position. He's still the single last player I want on the other side of the map after 15 minutes though.
I Liquibet Maru because I figured he would be able to cheese Innovation 2 or 3 times and then win 1 or 2 macroish games. Never would have thought 4-0
On July 31 2013 08:57 Orcasgt24 wrote: I'm not convinced Innovation is the best player in the world anymore. His tendency to die to every early attack he faces should prevent the title of "The Best" for being applied to him. At the very least it should make the top of SC 2 a much more crowded position. He's still the single last player I want on the other side of the map after 15 minutes though.
I Liquibet Maru because I figured he would be able to cheese Innovation 2 or 3 times and then win 1 or 2 macroish games. Never would have thought 4-0
eh you can be the best without being absolutely dominant, you just have to be better than everyone else by whatever margin
The whole time watching this live, my jaw was open... Agreed with the write up. Innovation seemed like a zombie or deer in headlights. no adaptation, no change. evolve or die... and he did. Wish it had at least 1 long epic game though.
YESSSSSSS MARU PRIME!!!! All season people have been talking about first, but having realized that he is a very solid player over a year ago, I took my focus away from him and instead towards the young one who upset sOs, Maru vs Rain eSF vs kespa, plz let this happen
On July 31 2013 09:12 painkilla wrote: Bomber, please kick that smug Rain out of the OSL. Then this would be the best season ever. Thank you very much!
I'm probably overreacting here, but how the hell is Rain smug? His play and real life attitude both seem pretty damn honest to me. The smug ones are the Kespa fans.
Regarding this 4-0, I love innovation, but really, this is supposed to be an RTS game, and while innovation has mastered the "RT" part, he doesn't have the "S" part down pat. Glad that strategy shown over raw mechanical strength.
On July 31 2013 09:12 painkilla wrote: Bomber, please kick that smug Rain out of the OSL. Then this would be the best season ever. Thank you very much!
I'm probably overreacting here, but how the hell is Rain smug? His play and real life attitude both seem pretty damn honest to me. The smug ones are the Kespa fans.
Regarding this 4-0, I love innovation, but really, this is supposed to be an RTS game, and while innovation has mastered the "RT" part, he doesn't have the "S" part down pat. Glad that strategy shown over raw mechanical strength.
On July 31 2013 08:56 banjoetheredskin wrote: YES! Maru can win it all now because Bomber's law will be in full effect once he destroys Rain. Honestly I would rather Rain win it all, but I don't see him beating Bomber.
Bomber's law might take effect AFTER he wins the OSL
Planning or strategy it's all alot of luck too. TvT has quite a bit of options and I don't think there are truly safe builds there, there are many ways you can just die to a little bad luck, like thinking your opponent is going banshee while instead he is doing some elevator tactic. Maru played really well though, his builds well fairly well hidden and the execution he did made them stomp innovation so hard, the 1-1-1 in the first map for example only worked because he had quite a decent position after the banshee harass. If innovation takes just slightly less damage there he might have a tank early and stops it.
On July 31 2013 08:57 Orcasgt24 wrote: I'm not convinced Innovation is the best player in the world anymore. His tendency to die to every early attack he faces should prevent the title of "The Best" for being applied to him. At the very least it should make the top of SC 2 a much more crowded position. He's still the single last player I want on the other side of the map after 15 minutes though.
I Liquibet Maru because I figured he would be able to cheese Innovation 2 or 3 times and then win 1 or 2 macroish games. Never would have thought 4-0
eh you can be the best without being absolutely dominant, you just have to be better than everyone else by whatever margin
getting slaughtered in a bo 7 by a player that has never won anything but the heart of some fans will not help though
On July 31 2013 09:49 Markwerf wrote: Planning or strategy it's all alot of luck too. TvT has quite a bit of options and I don't think there are truly safe builds there, there are many ways you can just die to a little bad luck, like thinking your opponent is going banshee while instead he is doing some elevator tactic. Maru played really well though, his builds well fairly well hidden and the execution he did made them stomp innovation so hard, the 1-1-1 in the first map for example only worked because he had quite a decent position after the banshee harass. If innovation takes just slightly less damage there he might have a tank early and stops it.
a defensive 1-1-1 with tanks and turrets is prolly the safest bet vs anything, yet its offensive potential is non existent
this beeing said, i think innovation did not handle a single "cheese" the right way neither did he scout early enough / correctly
On July 31 2013 08:57 Orcasgt24 wrote: I'm not convinced Innovation is the best player in the world anymore. His tendency to die to every early attack he faces should prevent the title of "The Best" for being applied to him. At the very least it should make the top of SC 2 a much more crowded position. He's still the single last player I want on the other side of the map after 15 minutes though.
I totally agree with you, except that you didn't mention one thing. I think it's ok to not have a "best player in the world". Sure, you might have someone who is the best at one matchup, and I think INnoVation's TvZ is pretty unmatched there, but I just don't think you have to name someone as the sole "best player". Although declaring someone as the top dog is fun and interesting because it's always debatable and intriguing discussions will ensue, but I just don't think there is a best right now because everyone has enough of a weakness to be considered not the best. And considering how plausible it is for someone to play a flawless game, so to speak, just without errors from start to finish, mechanically and in decision-making, it's totally possible for any of the top 15 or even top 25 players to play like the best player in the world. That's my opinion.
On July 31 2013 08:56 banjoetheredskin wrote: YES! Maru can win it all now because Bomber's law will be in full effect once he destroys Rain. Honestly I would rather Rain win it all, but I don't see him beating Bomber.
Bomber's law might take effect AFTER he wins the OSL
sure, but you probably say that because you really want bomber to win. even if you don't, it's kind of fun to hate sometimes, even though i do like bomber. just not as much
In game 2 Maru and Innovation went for the exact same build, as Inno had a scv in Maru's base who saw the timings and he mirrored them. Maru proxied a starport and made 2 medivac there, and Innovation bad micro did the rest, exact same scenario as in game 4. Funnily had he not "microed" his mine to death and let it in place, it would have shot both medivacs =)
I'm not sure you can call game 1, 2 or 4 cheese, in game 1 Maru's 1st banshee did zero damage, but the second one did a lot and allowed the marine + 1 then 2 tank push. Then in game 2 and 4, Maru and Innovation used the exact same build, production tab mirrored until one of them gg, so Innovation was cheesing too ? :p
I posted that because I noticed the reality of this serie and its perception are 2 very different things, and even in the recap :o More than a cheese serie, it was a outmicro serie.
The most surprising thing about this was not the result or even the scoreline (although both of those were shocks), it was the fact that the games themseleves were as one-sided as the Nestea vs Inca final.
On July 31 2013 08:57 Orcasgt24 wrote: I'm not convinced Innovation is the best player in the world anymore. His tendency to die to every early attack he faces should prevent the title of "The Best" for being applied to him. At the very least it should make the top of SC 2 a much more crowded position. He's still the single last player I want on the other side of the map after 15 minutes though.
I Liquibet Maru because I figured he would be able to cheese Innovation 2 or 3 times and then win 1 or 2 macroish games. Never would have thought 4-0
There's nobody better than him at the moment, and he's defended against early pressure/cheese builds multiple times.
Saying he "lacks a bit in the strategic department" sounds pretty weird. From what I read preceding that, it sounds like he actually just has some room to improve with stopping one base cheesing in TvT, lol. This sweeping allusion to a linear strategy vs mechanics dichotomy .. I dunno about that. The claim used just doesn't sound right?
I totaly agree, Only game 3 was a ''cheese'' builds. Games 1 and 2 where more what I would call agressive 1 base timings. G4 would´ve been a macro game if innovation wouldnt had F/up and roasted all of his marines in his first push of the whole series.
On July 31 2013 10:06 MrCon wrote: More than a cheese serie, it was a outmicro serie.
Agreed. I remember watching Maru vs Symbol last week and being really impressed by the marine splits vs banelings. Then came Innovation vs Soulkey and while Innovation did a lot of great things, his micro (especially marine splits vs banelings) seemed significantly worse than Maru's.
Maru played to his own strengths against Innovation and took all four games convincingly because of it.
edit: Maru is a royal roader in the OSL, but not GSL or WCS.
On July 31 2013 11:05 Targe wrote: I'm really happy to see players utilizing strategy more in a series like Mvp, sounds like Maru picked apart Bogus at his weak spots.
maybe he had a little help from his german friend
I found the moving out in g4 a bit weird from innovation. But i guess it's mostly nerves and his reminder to dat finals.
If the STX money troubles is real, then I am willing to bet that Innonvation practiced nothing but PL for the past few weeks. The guy's job is on the line. But to Maru's credit, he excuted well.
On July 31 2013 11:28 forumtext wrote: If the STX money troubles is real, then I am willing to bet that Innonvation practiced nothing but PL for the past few weeks. The guy's job is on the line. But to Maru's credit, he excuted well.
I find it hard to believe INnoVation didn't prepare at least a little bit for this match, but I can't explain why INnoVation played pretty greedily considering Maru's track record of cheesing and after the first 2 games his lack of thorough scouting just confused me. But it's easy to be super hard on him I guess considering he lost 4-0, so you're right he doesnt deserve that much criticism.
I'm really happy for Maru and shocked at just how badly Innovation got steamrolled. It wasn't even close.
I'm sure Innovation will win the Season 2 finals, especially because he'll never fail to prepare again after experiencing such an embarrassing loss. At least if he's smart, which he obviously is.
I'm curious to see if Maru can take it. He's been in the SC2 scene for so long, fading in and out of the GSL for almost three years. It would be incredible if he won just because of how out of left field his sudden ascension through the OSL has been, even more so because he'll be the youngest Royal Roader in history.
I was channeling my inner nerd, staying up playing some games, and as I went to sleep Maru vs Innovation started, and I turned it on to watch while I fell asleep. Then I proceeded to watch all four games. Holy shit Maru, I hope you win it all!
On July 31 2013 11:28 forumtext wrote: If the STX money troubles is real, then I am willing to bet that Innonvation practiced nothing but PL for the past few weeks. The guy's job is on the line. But to Maru's credit, he excuted well.
Winning Proleague has little to no effect on STX's finances (in the short term)
He's also facing Soulkey, which he didn't know until the day of his OSL match (or a day prior, not sure), who he had already practiced for in the previous round and crushed.
Very nice work by Maru, all the people bitching about the games make me laugh, playing cheese/all in builds against someone like Innovation is smart and if he isn't ready for them and just dies then that is his problem.
I honestly think that Innovation just let his head get to him and he started making dumb mistakes, much like he did against Soulkey. He just kept assuming Maru wasn't going to all-in again and kept making bad choices to skimp of defense.
I think we saw the complete breakdown of Innovation in G3 where he pulled all of his SCVs to chase the marines, but forgot to kill the SCV building the bunker in his base. Then he turned around and fought with his SCVs...AWAY from his marines, AWAY from his bunker. In the following game (G4), he just started making really strange and uncharacteristic moves like forgetting to leave marines in the back of his base and running units through chokes in his main base against sieged tanks, making several mechanical errors and occasional misclicks. MISCLICKS? From the best player in world, what was happening?
I think it can all be boiled down to Innovation having the same syndrome Naniwa faces: if he comes into a match feeling good, he will completely and utterly dominate his opponent mechanically, but the moment he starts to doubt himself even a little the game is over.
On July 31 2013 10:58 CioSc2 wrote: I totaly agree, Only game 3 was a ''cheese'' builds. Games 1 and 2 where more what I would call agressive 1 base timings. G4 would´ve been a macro game if innovation wouldnt had F/up and roasted all of his marines in his first push of the whole series.
I agree with this quite a bit. A lot of people are saying that Maru cheesed his way in, but G1 seemed like a legitimate timing and strategy from Maru. Even if Innovation had somehow held, Maru had 2 tanks to zero and could have definitely climbed ahead in economy and macro'd his way to victory.
G2 was a little...odd. I would say that game was more all-in than the previous game. It reminds me of hyvaa timings: "If I do some kind of early attack and my opponent manages to stop it, I'll just try AGAIN WITH MORE STUFF!! and he won't expect it." And alas, Innovation cancelled his tank thinking that Maru wouldn't do the same thing AGAIN.
On July 31 2013 10:58 CioSc2 wrote: I totaly agree, Only game 3 was a ''cheese'' builds. Games 1 and 2 where more what I would call agressive 1 base timings. G4 would´ve been a macro game if innovation wouldnt had F/up and roasted all of his marines in his first push of the whole series.
I was rooting for Maru and don't begrudge him for using aggressive builds, but if proxy starport isn't cheese then I don't know what is.
On July 31 2013 10:58 CioSc2 wrote: I totaly agree, Only game 3 was a ''cheese'' builds. Games 1 and 2 where more what I would call agressive 1 base timings. G4 would´ve been a macro game if innovation wouldnt had F/up and roasted all of his marines in his first push of the whole series.
I agree with this quite a bit. A lot of people are saying that Maru cheesed his way in, but G1 seemed like a legitimate timing and strategy from Maru. Even if Innovation had somehow held, Maru had 2 tanks to zero and could have definitely climbed ahead in economy and macro'd his way to victory.
G2 was a little...odd. I would say that game was more all-in than the previous game. It reminds me of hyvaa timings: "If I do some kind of early attack and my opponent manages to stop it, I'll just try AGAIN WITH MORE STUFF!! and he won't expect it." And alas, Innovation cancelled his tank thinking that Maru wouldn't do the same thing AGAIN.
Nah it looks like it really is a build designed for 2 medivacs. That one gas can support constant medivac production. Maru didn't decide to attack again because his first drop didn't do much damage, that was the plan all along.
Neeb used it on Drunkenboi in WCS AM. Exact same build on a different map, same result.
to everyone supporting maru i just want to say than you just play same level than him everyday on ladder so i don't see why you'll support e-sport anymore now, this game loosing his soul and doesn't interest me so much anymore with game like that.
Edit ok i was really bored saw this game sry for this comment ...
On July 31 2013 14:34 xxxKagexxx wrote: to everyone supporting maru i just want to say than you just play same level than him everyday on ladder so i don't see why you'll support e-sport anymore now, this game loosing his soul and doesn't interest me so much anymore with game like that.
On July 31 2013 14:34 xxxKagexxx wrote: to everyone supporting maru i just want to say than you just play same level than him everyday on ladder so i don't see why you'll support e-sport anymore now, this game loosing his soul and doesn't interest me so much anymore with game like that.
Say what you will, but cheese is part of what makes SC so amazing. And yes, I'm sure every single person who supports Maru in this post is good enough to be in an OSL final.
On July 31 2013 14:34 xxxKagexxx wrote: to everyone supporting maru i just want to say than you just play same level than him everyday on ladder so i don't see why you'll support e-sport anymore now, this game loosing his soul and doesn't interest me so much anymore with game like that.
yea Maru did nothing special, that's why people beat Innovation all the time, lol what?
On July 31 2013 14:34 xxxKagexxx wrote: to everyone supporting maru i just want to say than you just play same level than him everyday on ladder so i don't see why you'll support e-sport anymore now, this game loosing his soul and doesn't interest me so much anymore with game like that.
Wait what ?
Cheesing in OSL, yeah we never seen that before ... right ... Perhaps we should ask JD dunno just to name one. To me that only made OSL have more soul.
Just read the topic for a moment and come to understand why Maru chose to cheese, if you understand that then you can respect his choice.
Innovation has 2 major weaknesses. # getting killed early. (he often plays very macro greedy) # Mentality (when a player get's in his head, he starts to make mistakes)
Looks to me Maru deserves props for abusing both those and play from his strength then instead of that of Innovation.
To some "fans" like you for instance, this play is not respected because you are selfish and want to see another type of game play that you yourself enjoy watching. Not to say that's bad but let's be honest Maru played to win not to entertain.
Now i do fail to see what this has to do with not supporting E-sports ? Also, i wish i could cheese like Maru did on ladder It's supprisingly difficult.
On July 31 2013 09:12 painkilla wrote: Bomber, please kick that smug Rain out of the OSL. Then this would be the best season ever. Thank you very much!
On July 31 2013 09:12 painkilla wrote: Bomber, please kick that smug Rain out of the OSL. Then this would be the best season ever. Thank you very much!
I'm probably overreacting here, but how the hell is Rain smug? His play and real life attitude both seem pretty damn honest to me. The smug ones are the Kespa fans.
Regarding this 4-0, I love innovation, but really, this is supposed to be an RTS game, and while innovation has mastered the "RT" part, he doesn't have the "S" part down pat. Glad that strategy shown over raw mechanical strength.
I'm rolling my eyes at you and not in good way.
Oh don't worry, your eyes will be rolling even more once Bomber hits his 'curse'. Kespa players are the best. They have a more professional understanding of RTS mechanics like micro and macro. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu>MVP, Nestea, MC.
Feels so weird when Maru is called a veteran, even if he is one. But he is so young and maybe even smaller then me. But the series were grand. Especially the finishing move by Maru. Felt to me like a fatality move: "I can copy you and still crush you since I know everything about you ... everything"
I would have loved to see Maru Bio vs Innovation MarineTank though. Maybe in the seasonal Finals, but there are still a few Terran heavy hitters left in both NA/EU that could go there as well. But Innovations goto strat when he gets beaten up in TvT is gone and I can't remember a longer series where he didn't need it. Hopefully he can adjust his play.
Maru has some of the best micro I've ever seen. I wish I could remember who he was playing and when, but I remember watching some games of his like 8 months ago or something where he was defending a roach/bane all in and he was down to like a single marauder and a few medivacs maybe and held vs more than a dozen roaches with some of the most insane micro I've ever seen. It was in Code A I remember. And I remember this series he played against a protoss in which he used a lot of incredible ghost/nuke tactics that were super impressive. I've also always noticed how much of a stone cold killer this kid is. I feel like I've been watching him in GSL for 2 years, and I've NEVER seen him look nervous in the booth. Dude has a bright future.
On July 31 2013 16:10 TronJovolta wrote: Maru has some of the best micro I've ever seen. I wish I could remember who he was playing and when, but I remember watching some games of his like 8 months ago or something where he was defending a roach/bane all in and he was down to like a single marauder and a few medivacs maybe and held vs more than a dozen roaches with some of the most insane micro I've ever seen. It was in Code A I remember. And I remember this series he played against a protoss in which he used a lot of incredible ghost/nuke tactics that were super impressive. I've also always noticed how much of a stone cold killer this kid is. I feel like I've been watching him in GSL for 2 years, and I've NEVER seen him look nervous in the booth. Dude has a bright future.
On July 31 2013 08:57 Orcasgt24 wrote: I'm not convinced Innovation is the best player in the world anymore. His tendency to die to every early attack he faces should prevent the title of "The Best" for being applied to him. At the very least it should make the top of SC 2 a much more crowded position. He's still the single last player I want on the other side of the map after 15 minutes though.
I Liquibet Maru because I figured he would be able to cheese Innovation 2 or 3 times and then win 1 or 2 macroish games. Never would have thought 4-0
eh you can be the best without being absolutely dominant, you just have to be better than everyone else by whatever margin
getting slaughtered in a bo 7 by a player that has never won anything but the heart of some fans will not help though
Before WCS Season 1 Global Finals, INnoVatioN had never won anything... Yet, he steamrolled Flash and Life, and that wasn't considered "upsets" at all....
When will people stop considering that only a tournament win gives you credit ? And let's speak of Jjakji, Seed, and Sniper, yeah...
On July 31 2013 12:12 Bogeyman wrote: I was channeling my inner nerd, staying up playing some games, and as I went to sleep Maru vs Innovation started, and I turned it on to watch while I fell asleep. Then I proceeded to watch all four games. Holy shit Maru, I hope you win it all!
Fortunately he didn't make you stay up for very long! Hope he takes it as well!
I wonder how the Korean players reacted to Maru stomping Inno like that heh.
On July 31 2013 19:15 Naphal wrote: did he not make a raven game 2 thinking "he will exactly the same"?
was a short, but shockingly entertaining series xD
The way I saw it was that the Raven was kind of half-measure. In the "I should play greedy, or should I? Yeah, or... Well, I'll just make a Raven and hope things work out"-kind of way
Even though the skill level of Maru (and of INnoVation as well) is far beyond any question, don't you guys regret to see cheesing be rewarded even at the highest level? All things equal I will always support the guy who macroes against the one who cheeses, i.e who plays dirty to secure an easier win.
Don't get me wrong I'm not suggesting Maru couldn't have won without it. I'm just a little skeptical on the efficiency of cheesy tactics.
Reference to the LoL player or ? I don't understand this. :p
He's a well-known league player who never changed up his style during his years as a professional which hurt his team in the end. He's retired now but at the time of his retirement his style was considered extremely archaic.
On July 31 2013 20:43 Seiju wrote: Even though the skill level of Maru (and of INnoVation as well) is far beyond any question, don't you guys regret to see cheesing be rewarded even at the highest level? All things equal I will always support the guy who macroes against the one who cheeses, i.e who plays dirty to secure an easier win.
Don't get me wrong I'm not suggesting Maru couldn't have won without it. I'm just a little skeptical on the efficiency of cheesy tactics.
Winning is all that really matters in a series such as this one. Maru might have indeed used cheese, but it's up to Innovation to play carefully and not be greedy, especially since Innovation has the reputation to be a true macro monster.
To be fair, there's no reason to try to beat someone on their own terms. So there was no reason for Maru to try to best Innovation in a macro game; he had to try something else. Preparation, mind games and early cheese work well against macro-oriented players who are known to open with greedy builds. Arguably, opening with greedy builds is cheese in itself as someone playing standard will be behind.
@aando, thanks for clearing it up. I knew of the player but I didn't understand why there was a reference to him
"There was no so-called honor in Maru's play". That was a cheap shot. Does no one else see how ridiculously pervious each innovation build is in the early game? I think Innovation had no "so-called honor" by playing so greedy and permitting such opportunities for cheese.
Whoa, I never saw this coming. Maru has ALWAYS let me down in my liquibet, to the point where I'm like "just bet against Maru" and it's been working great.
On July 31 2013 16:10 TronJovolta wrote: Maru has some of the best micro I've ever seen. I wish I could remember who he was playing and when, but I remember watching some games of his like 8 months ago or something where he was defending a roach/bane all in and he was down to like a single marauder and a few medivacs maybe and held vs more than a dozen roaches with some of the most insane micro I've ever seen. It was in Code A I remember. And I remember this series he played against a protoss in which he used a lot of incredible ghost/nuke tactics that were super impressive. I've also always noticed how much of a stone cold killer this kid is. I feel like I've been watching him in GSL for 2 years, and I've NEVER seen him look nervous in the booth. Dude has a bright future.
I don't agree with the writeup that Game 2 was a macro build from Innovation. He went 1-base tech, just like Maru. Unfortunately, Innovation built a raven to blind counter what he expected to be proxy starport banshees, wasting the resources he would need to defend the fast dropship play.
Preparation is everything. While I wanted Innovation get to the finals, I love Maru for his dedicated preparation that really payed off. Now I want Maru to win it all.
You could say game 2 was cheese because of the proxy starport, but both players used the exact same build except Maru reactored his rax (both 1 based). But it was a build ESF veterans know for long, the TvT metagame went from open season like to greed and then in 2012, when xel naga fortress was in the pool (just to illustrate the period of time) those kind of very late expo builds were standard for some time, usually with a proxied starport, but very often they ended up in a normal game. It's cheese but it's not cheese at the same time, as the build can recover well if you're scouted. Game 3 was cheese obviously. I don't understand, Inno scouted his natural, which is one of the rarest spot of proxy, then he bring back his scv to mine to CC first >< Double greed one could say.
On July 31 2013 20:43 Seiju wrote: Even though the skill level of Maru (and of INnoVation as well) is far beyond any question, don't you guys regret to see cheesing be rewarded even at the highest level? All things equal I will always support the guy who macroes against the one who cheeses, i.e who plays dirty to secure an easier win.
Don't get me wrong I'm not suggesting Maru couldn't have won without it. I'm just a little skeptical on the efficiency of cheesy tactics.
What? Playing dirty? He didnt sleep with innovations sister before the match. Damn thats harsh. You think that cheesing is playing dirty? This is a strategy game. A strategy is a fucking strategy. God forbid someone does a strategy that doesnt rely on skill in a long term game. God forbid someone uses a strategy that fits their aggressive playstyle and excellent micro. God forbid the best player in the world loses because his opponent outplayed him with great strategy. Stop whining about cheese, you're probably just mad that you never win against cheese on the ladder. You make it sound like maru's play was dirty because he essentially knew he wasnt going to lose playing the way he did, but that's dishonorable because he should have played a macro game that he knew innovation would beat him in. This is pathetic at how bitchy people get at cheese, it's a goddamn strategy game. All strategies are allowed and should be respected.
Also, Maru's micro man. Watch Maru vs Symbol for the best widow mine micro, this was insane. Split them, burrow them while microing his troops, then watch Flash in his code A match yesterday or even Inno vs Soulkey to compare. Maru's micro was insane. In fact he actually micro his mines as opposed to more or less randomly burrowing them (or not burrowing them in Flash's case :O).
On July 31 2013 20:43 Seiju wrote: Even though the skill level of Maru (and of INnoVation as well) is far beyond any question, don't you guys regret to see cheesing be rewarded even at the highest level? All things equal I will always support the guy who macroes against the one who cheeses, i.e who plays dirty to secure an easier win.
Don't get me wrong I'm not suggesting Maru couldn't have won without it. I'm just a little skeptical on the efficiency of cheesy tactics.
Winning is all that really matters in a series such as this one. Maru might have indeed used cheese, but it's up to Innovation to play carefully and not be greedy, especially since Innovation has the reputation to be a true macro monster.
To be fair, there's no reason to try to beat someone on their own terms. So there was no reason for Maru to try to best Innovation in a macro game; he had to try something else. Preparation, mind games and early cheese work well against macro-oriented players who are known to open with greedy builds. Arguably, opening with greedy builds is cheese in itself as someone playing standard will be behind.
@aando, thanks for clearing it up. I knew of the player but I didn't understand why there was a reference to him
As Master Splinter said in the TMNT reboot series: "Seek victory, not fairness."
Biggest difference between Innovation and Maru is that Maru knows how to play a series. Innovation play relatively standard every game and lost because of it. Why do you think Idra never won consistently? Because he wanted to play one way. Same thing for Innovation. Maru pulled a page out of IMMvp book and beat his opponent not by skill but by strategy. After all... SC2 is a real time STRATEGY game.
innovation is like a machine, a bot. If something out of his expectations comes in he malfunctions and fails . i can picture him in his mind going ERROR ERROR UNKNOWN PLAYSTYLE DETECTED.
On July 31 2013 16:10 TronJovolta wrote: Maru has some of the best micro I've ever seen. I wish I could remember who he was playing and when, but I remember watching some games of his like 8 months ago or something where he was defending a roach/bane all in and he was down to like a single marauder and a few medivacs maybe and held vs more than a dozen roaches with some of the most insane micro I've ever seen. It was in Code A I remember. And I remember this series he played against a protoss in which he used a lot of incredible ghost/nuke tactics that were super impressive. I've also always noticed how much of a stone cold killer this kid is. I feel like I've been watching him in GSL for 2 years, and I've NEVER seen him look nervous in the booth. Dude has a bright future.
Go Rain! Maru's games were definitely not that interesting although i admit news worthy. How will he hold up when he faces someone who can hold off the expected early aggression and cheeses.
On August 01 2013 13:38 Angelavenger wrote: Go Rain! Maru's games were definitely not that interesting although i admit news worthy. How will he hold up when he faces someone who can hold off the expected early aggression and cheeses.
Well he is currently kicking ass and just advanced to round of 8 for this season of Code S
Oohhh almost forgot he fucking WON code S last season... this is exactly how flash came up
EPT
Maru < Newkirk Redev Precinct > ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Heyoka/FrontPage/WCSSeason2Ro4Bracket.png)
It's supprisingly difficult.
