EPTWinter Warfare Mafia
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Holyflare
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Holyflare
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Holyflare
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 03:24 Trfel wrote: How are you doing, Holyflare? Curious why you think raynpelikoneet is mafia? Convuluted af reasons really. I thought Sandroba was quite likely to be mafia and Palmar made this post: + Show Spoiler + On December 10 2023 17:54 Palmar wrote: Sandroba correctly identified Slam’s best post (smiley thing) and also noticed how excellent it was but somehow convinced himself to not make a good read on it. Brazilposting in crisis? Implicating that Palmar was ready to bus sandro because the reasoning here is extremely tenuous imo. I don't believe that palmar thinks the post is good but simultaneously uses it to discredit sandro. Maybe he would but I don't think so. It feels more like thread influence has made palmar take the read and use it as his own stance for slam and then try and double down on the sandro read. Reading into this and then seeing rayn post some drivel like: + Show Spoiler + On December 10 2023 18:01 raynpelikoneet wrote: Palmar pros town here. kinda made me think that maybe I was doing palmar a disservice and he could come up with something like that and rayn was just TMIing palmar as town because I don't think anything palmar said should be really conclusive for palmar's alignment in the slightest, especially not to this degree that rayn was talking about he's since given more elaborated reasoning for it like: + Show Spoiler + On December 11 2023 01:17 raynpelikoneet wrote: Do you also remember he doesn't play during the weekends and does basically the minimum amount to survive as mafia? On December 11 2023 01:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: Idk, i would think Palmar would hide under "no play during weekends" esp since most of the players should know that, rather than post basically anything other than "it's weekend bye!"  The stuff he said is also okay. It's not that i even think Vivax is mafia, probably opposite tbh, but his read on Palmar is based on wrong premises imo, if Palmar and sandroba would be both mafia, that would definitely not be something Palmar does in my opinion.Oh i also think DP and sandroba are not both mafia, now that i remember. Which I guess is somewhat accetable but it's still a really silly reason to base the read on that. Think I'm more leaning on going on vivax atm though because he's playing way too normal and trfel is right that his post to sandroba is self-fulfilling. Not really sure, not that into the game atm. Marv looks ok, trfel looks good imo, DP is (?) but leaning on the side of ok. Slam is kinda just chilling so I don't really know what to read into that but I think he's had enough defenders in the thread over really mediocre points that game state might be pointing to him being town too. Vivax, Koshi, chez, sandro, meatbaby and palmar is a good list of LHF to get through for the time being. Maybe throw in a rayn in there but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Palmar and rayn probably the weakest in being in this list so will see what they get up to while I work throw the others. | ||
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Holyflare
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Holyflare
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Long time no see. Didn't think you'd ever come back :D | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 03:42 raynpelikoneet wrote: wait you thought i am mafia because sandroba is mafia, i called sandroba out, palmar called sandroba out, and i said i think palmar is town? At the time I read (this morning) you had not called sandro out. When I voted, you barely called sandro out and you came up with some hipster reason that you didn't even disclose. Neither of those things matter to me because at the point you had called sandro out pretty much the whole thread had and your post is basically 0 commitment to saying sandro looks bad. None of it really matters to your connection with palmar's connection to sandro though. | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 03:45 Trfel wrote: I guess I'm a bit surprised that Vivax seems to be one of your top suspects when (correct me if I'm wrong) he was the only one who shared the same view about Palmar's post on sandroba? I get that agreeing with you doesn't mean he has to be the same alignment but it still seems a bit surprising to just gloss over it entirely. I didn't even know he did this tbh | ||
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Holyflare
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Okay, I do actually kinda remember these posts and they're quite good and align with what I'm saying. I don't really know how to explain it but a vivax that agrees with me and says rational things I've found traditionally more often than not is just mafia but I can't exactly rationalise that in view of what he's been posting because it has been good and does actually say what I'm thinking. Possible that mafia universe has beaten him down enough. | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 03:52 marvellosity wrote: Remembered mafia existed after the Traitors, Hf… I think your whole line of reasoning on Sandro-Palmar-rayn is based on an incorrect evaluation of things that Palmar might say. I think what he said about sandro’s post was very believable for him I got to that line of thought in the end tbh Traitors looked too cringe for me to watch | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 03:52 raynpelikoneet wrote: Can you really not read between the lines that much, that when i was playing in the morning, the only question i posed to anyone is someone i might find some suspicious about? You have put way too much stock into me paying attention to something. I just wanted to get a vote down and make people comment on it. | ||
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On December 11 2023 03:58 raynpelikoneet wrote: Okay, so where is your head at now, if none (or some) of this is not true anymore? :D Exactly what I said - vivax. | ||
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On December 11 2023 03:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: I did though, way before you voted for me. You did not. I get what you're thinking timeline wise but I had not read the rest of the game when I voted. | ||
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On December 11 2023 04:06 raynpelikoneet wrote: One thing more, is this why you originally voted for me? (before the post(s) where i explain my stance on Palmar)? Not just the connection with palmar, no. Your stances on people were very vague and devoid of substance. Your read on trfel was dependent on what he responded to DP but I think you should have easily had a better read on trfel with his posts vs sandroba at that point too. Especially apparent that you hadn't even talked about sandroba there too. Feels like you were measuring thread temperature before taking a stance on either. You did expand on it in your "attack" on sandro here: On December 11 2023 01:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: Finally arrived home. Reading until here so i don't miss anything: This: Now at the time my position was sandroba doesn't look good (for reasons -- not exactly for his opener), Trfel looks nothing out of ordinary. However i am not the only player in the game, so i decided to see how Trfel deals with DP questioning him, without interfering at that point. Which is a fine follow up I guess, but this didn't exist then. | ||
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I've said what I've said and if a timeline doesn't add up somehow (I don't believe that to be the case) then it is what it is. I stand by what I've written. | ||
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because I wanted to avoid whatever the hell this interaction has been now over petty irrelevant stuff and I acknowledge that my list is all low posters who have said basically nothing and it could be wrong and if it were they would be the first people to throw back in | ||
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On December 11 2023 04:33 raynpelikoneet wrote: I am saying when you voted for me, you had read some Palmar's post(s), but hadn't read any question to sandroba from me. That's a lie if you have read the thread as you claim, because: My question: Palmar's first post in the game: Look at the time stamps. I have literally no idea what you're talking about or why you expect me to remember such a trivial little detail when I've clearly just massively skimmed the thread and put a vote down on someone who I thought had the overall perception of skating by and just saying things (you). If you want to nitpick to the nth degree then be my guest and vote me or don't but going on about this point is a waste of mine, your and everyone else's time IMO. Quite happy to talk about literally anything else at this point. | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 04:48 sandroba wrote: @holyflare, you first post you start with the statement that you thought I was mafia and then derives the rest of your reads from it. Can you expand on why you believe I was suspicious based on my initial posts? What other people have said is correct, you came to no conclusions on people. I don't think your points about trfel were misplaced and in any other game I would have sheeped what you were saying and been all over trfel but your conviction I don't think aligns with someone trying to discover aspects about the game you felt uncertain about. Ordinarily I'd expect people to feign that they believed those reads more than they did to try and get reactions out of people but you just made a lot of statements, threw in a lot of uncertainties about them and then ??? Sure, it's the beginning of the game but I still also expect more conviction. Other people have commented on the Slam stuff. I think it's a good observation but the way you have phrased it comes more like someone who wants to keep the option of Slam open for later than someone who wants to try and clear Slam and I even think the read itself perhaps comes from a place of TMI. This is especially so because in your next post you say you can't really get a good read on Slam ordinarily. It just smells completely off. | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 04:34 sandroba wrote: I think this is a towny observation from rayn, no way dp would take such a one-sided approach favoring a partner in the exchange between me and trfel. Of all the posts in the thread I also take umbrage with the fact that you've essentially taken this one as a pseudo way of defending yourself. I also would like you to elaborate on this some more because there are several interpretations of what this can actually mean and it's vague enough that you can use it to imply many things. | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 04:49 Trfel wrote: To be honest I think you are nitpicking a bit. Even if we say you are right and Holyflare isn't, I'm not sure what that demonstrates. It means he messed up in reading the thread maybe, I don't think it makes him mafia. I think that the overall picture of Holyflare's play is much more important. Holyflare, thoughts on DarthPunk? I get that it's night in Australia but he still feels a bit off to me. I don't like his attack on you and I think Palmar perhaps persuaded him off from tunelling you further but he tried to play it off like he came up with that idea himself to appear like he was being reasonable and then said you could be mafia anyway. He also said you weren't inquisitive about finding out information from people, while literally trying to take up all of your time with little questions thus giving you not much time to do that. I don't know what to think of that though because I'm historically bad at reading DP. Not sure I could make a gut read on it but somewhere middle of the pack, possibility of being townie but not outright surprised if mafia. See what he does next given time. Have you made a list post summing up what your current reads are? | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 05:07 sandroba wrote: I understand your point about feigning certainty as a strategy but fail to see how that makes me suspicious still. Are you saying that although my post had good observations and moved the game in a pro-town manner because I didn't do it like you would have done it is suspicious? Not sure I buy that completely from your perspective. Definitely not something to hinge a whole narrative on and derive reads from. Especially when your own post is full of tentative language and demonstrations of uncertainty regarding palmar's posts. I don't think you moved the game in a pro-town manner. Good observations are easy for anyone to make. A pro-town manner would have been outright saying those things and seeing how people reacted to that information and then compounding those reads and coming up with more reads. You just put out reads, second guessed yourself and left the options open. What did that achieve? I can only go on what you've posted and base things off common patterns. If you aren't mafia then post your way out of it and get me to not think it anymore, pretty simple. | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 05:11 sandroba wrote: That's not a defense of me, as I could be mafia and DP town in this scenario. The fact that rayn's brain read that exchange and thought "No way 2 mafia would do that as partners" I think demonstrates a towny trying to solve the game. I chose the scenario where you didn't view yourself as mafia? Please tell me your updated read on Trfel, it's imperative for this line of thought. | ||
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On December 11 2023 05:36 Alakaslam wrote: U wot? Most of your first full on post was based on assuming a world where Sandro was scum If that isn't accusation then hey, I And this is different from everyone else in the thread? Why is mine more OMGUSable than anyone else's? | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 07:07 raynpelikoneet wrote: I think you're calling Trfel mafia, not the other way around here? It's not like you're being tunneled by Trfel DP, is it? Now i don't know why you think Trfel is mafia, where did he lie, or did any of those dubious things that might make them mafia? Bullet points please. Also look at what HF did: - rayn is scum because palmar - rayn posts - palmar didnt post when hf voted This isn't even correct lol. DP/trfel plz just sum up your points on each other into a couple of bullet points and then move on to anyone else please. Just arguing amongst yourselves at this point and I can't piece together any of it. | ||
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Holyflare
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Holyflare
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You said stuff about koshi being a policy lynch and not just a lynch if he continues doing this in 24h. Slam wonders why you phrase it this way, thinking if you were town you'd say he could be mafia and would be a good lynch instead. At least I think that's the idea behind it. Bit too much reading in to what you wrote imo if this is the case but like the train of thought from slam at least. | ||
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On December 11 2023 07:14 DarthPunk wrote: Trefel has me in his top two lynch candidates, why would he do that and then talk to me like I'm town. - Trefel formed a "scum" (without actually calling me scum) read on me based on 'lack of thread presence' - Trefel then acknowledged that it was the middle of the night and that may explain the lack of thread presence -Trefel then proceeds to try and get several others to post their thoughts on me -Trefel then says I am suspicious based on lack of thread presence (which should be discounted based on timezones) and the fact I called sandroba town. -Trefel then says Sandroba looks better based on exactly the reasoning I gave for not finding Sandroba suspicious. Basically his justifications for his top 2 lynch candidate read on me is farcical. Regarding Holyflare: Did he actually try and justify that vote on you from the start of the game? Cause that does look bad. Can you quote this post? Trefel then says I am suspicious based on lack of thread presence (which should be discounted based on timezones) and the fact I called sandroba town. Probably a disservice to what you write but you fill up a lot of thread gets clogged up with you going back and forth with the person you already think is mafia to the point where I just zone out and don't want to engage anywhere near either of you. This post is probably good though if it is correct so thanks for the summary. I don't agree with your "he's calling me town" rhetoric though, I think that was clutching at straws. | ||
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Holyflare
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I don't really see what's wrong with the second point. If you say you town read Sandroba because of his scum read on Marv and trfel thinks Sandro's reasoning is weak and it didn't seem like Sandro cared about it, why is it bad to dislike you? I'll have a look into the gap between you dropping the trfel read and going to bed to see if it was unfair or not though. Potentially doez have merit and might be something a mafia trfel would harp on in lieu of a more evolved read on someone else. | ||
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Also bit sad that despite it being many years he still just seems bitter that I exist as a human being. | ||
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On December 11 2023 09:24 DarthPunk wrote: I forgot to respond to this. Essentially, when you are playing with people who are new, aggressiveness signals confidence in prosecuting a scum hunting agenda, townies are less refined in what they are looking for, and will see something that is potentially scummy and attack. This is why on a surface level *level 1* early aggression is a town trait, and I think this holds true for newer players. What I think is that as people develop in skill and understanding, aggression becomes a *tool* that is wielded, either by town to determine alignments or by mafia to hide in plain sight and push mis lynches in a way that is *too obvious to be scum* The general differentiator in my opinion, is that town aggression tends to be built on curiosity and inquisitiveness, and mafia aggression tends to be built on decisions that have already been made. Therefore, when I said you were too committed early, I was saying that you were aggressive in a way that seemed like you were prosecuting an agenda to find Sandro scummy, rather than curious about the reasoning behind his post. Essentially, town want to find truth without agenda. Scum wants to advance their agenda without in spite of truth. The reason I find you scummy is that you are aggressive without curiosity. And what follows are pushes without foundation. Decent post for DP | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 20:21 marvellosity wrote: I think it’s a terrible case and parts of it make me suspicious - for example if I have a chess match, I will say so as either alignment, I have never lied about this sort of thing as either alignment. DP should know that. I can’t really be arsed to try to attack DP for this (or other dumb bits) though as I’ll just get accused of omgus. You guys can draw your own conclusions. He did say you wouldn't lie about it, just that you're much more likely to bring that up as mafia than town. | ||
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On December 11 2023 20:49 DarthPunk wrote: It's actually really different. On one hand I am lying in order to make you look bad, the other I am making an observation of your, perhaps unknown, tendencies. +1 | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 21:07 marvellosity wrote: I mean if it’s Vivax and sandro and I’m gonna get lynched for the conclusions everyone else arrived at, so be it… I’m low key more suspicious of HF for agreeing with DP than I am DP I like your posts, more so because they defended me and seemed reasonable but it's undeniable that you seem low effort and it's also undeniable that you tried to prescribe intent to DP's case by saying he was lying about you, when it wasn't the case. In a world where I'm starting to see more townie actiosn from people, you fall lower and lower down the totem pole because of it. | ||
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Palmar Koshi DarthPunk die_meatbaby Trfel Raynpelikoneet All of the above have some kind of reasonable series of posts that give them plausible deniability from being mafia, or at least that I think have posted things that I can see as even townie. Some of them even at multiple points (slam, DP etc). It leaves me with: marvellosity Vivax Chezinu Sandroba Sure, there's the chance that you're the town in this 4, and it's actually quite a high possibility(!) but I haven't seen the things comparatively that the other players above have given to cross you off the list. Which is crazy considering koshi and slam are in it. Vivax's posts are boring, he also has no proper engagement. Sandro similarly, more concerned with trying to look ok than solve the game. Chezinu is whatever, religious nonsense. | ||
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Holyflare
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ya fair, I don't play mafia anymore for a reason :D | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 09:18 Vivax wrote: Rayn has made a few observations I could see coming from town. I don't want to read DP either way yet. Or at least I don't think I can. Discussing HFs alignment on D1 is pointless you either lynch him because he's HF or you don't, but not because he's town. Palmar + Slam lists looked reasonable to me, mostly. + Show Spoiler + On December 11 2023 02:10 Palmar wrote: Quick list post: Slam Palmar Marv Rayn Trfel DP Sandroba Haven't thought about Vivax, and Koshi, die_meatbaby (I need a shorthand for that...) HF and Chez haven't really said anything. It is a little suspicious that Chez hasn't tried to form a multinational corporation hellbent on world takeover though. On December 11 2023 08:31 Alakaslam wrote: Yes. Koshi town. You (DP) town. Rayn town. Palmar town. Holyflare possible scum but 1. I have a fear negative bias out of respect for his scum play and 2. He has been culling that in me, but 3. 1 makes this wifom. Trfel possible scum. The rest are unclear enough for me to not provide reads. When reading Sandro, I don't see it explained why he assumes that I'm his worst voter. This is possibly the worst post vivax has made. Really low commitment to calling rayn town, with enough of a way out to back off from it. Pretty sure he slips that I'm town here too. The Sandro post is ??? Literally no conclusions about Sandro, it's just a statement. In fact these are all just pointless statements. | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 20:42 DarthPunk wrote: If you can't be bothered reading the big post (you really fucking should) This is a snapshot. a pretty egregious case of incongruence: Rayn asks for an opinion on holyflare. Marv is.... Non-commital. Two unrelated posts later. Marv thinks holyflare is town, or at least not mafia because he can follow his thoughts. Why does Marv not say that in the first place? Why does he say nothing at all when it is clear he in fact has something to say? between those posts, holyflare had not posted a thing. I don't think this is as strong a point as you're making it out to be btw. He says he can't make much of Rayn's points about me and then denies rayn calling me mafia by saying he can follow my thought process (something you say you use to see if someone is townie too). Context is important here. | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 21:51 Vivax wrote: DP is scum probably. Cba to attempt to be less boring in this company lmao. The way the wagon on me formed is a total hellspawn and maybe there's a bit of fun to be had with rayn, Koshi and marv. I claim VT. I would also destroy Palmar in an MMA match fyi. why dp? | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 11 2023 22:25 Vivax wrote: Gut and purely from gamestate I'd say DP, Sandro, Trfel are the mafia (lots of unproductive verbosity from two while Sandro makes sense from a more frozen perspective). In this context your unvote makes sense cause you don't want all three on a wagon. HF, Chezinu would be policy lynches. You think the world is that mafia went after mafia who OMGUSed back onto their mafia partner, just for the 3rd mafia partner to pick one of the mafia partners to start tunelling? What on earth | ||
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On December 12 2023 02:18 marvellosity wrote: Can I just say, Hf, this is a really icky post. And you should know why. don't really care tbh it wasn't in the OP and I didn't expect grack to reply | ||
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On December 11 2023 05:27 Chezinu wrote: If you need help sandroba, you can read my posts to learn how to have people not think you post nothing of substance. + Show Spoiler + Lol!! Noting this post because it's the first one where Chez breaks character and it's rayn talking about Sandroba doing nothing and deflecting. | ||
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On December 12 2023 18:51 marvellosity wrote: Also sandro’s waffling on Trfel is REALLY WEIRD I think Sandro inorganically arrived at a trfel town read and I'm not quite sure how it happened tbh. | ||
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On December 12 2023 02:37 Holyflare wrote: Noting this post because it's the first one where Chez breaks character and it's rayn talking about Sandroba doing nothing and deflecting. Still valid. | ||
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On December 11 2023 04:34 sandroba wrote: I think this is a towny observation from rayn, no way dp would take such a one-sided approach favoring a partner in the exchange between me and trfel. but I still feel extremely off about the people he is mentioning that aren't rayn On December 11 2023 05:11 sandroba wrote: That's not a defense of me, as I could be mafia and DP town in this scenario. The fact that rayn's brain read that exchange and thought "No way 2 mafia would do that as partners" I think demonstrates a towny trying to solve the game. The follow up kind of confirms the rayn thing and I still just ?????? that he decided to take the scenario where he is mafia to use as an explanation | ||
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Holyflare
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Rayn's point was that DP and Sandroba probably weren't mafia together so how does "favour a partner" apply to this? Is it that he thought trfel was mafia at this point? That rayn thought trfel was mafia? Either a slip or not something I think sandro would say about an actual mafia partner (trfel). | ||
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He says that rayn's point is good thinking because it shows that he's thinking about mafia partner interactions, but removing DP from being mafia in this equation (remember, rayn specifically only mentioned sandro and DP) doesn't make any sense. | ||
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Holyflare
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On December 12 2023 02:47 sandroba wrote: I quoted a post I would 100% expect you to agree on and find it suspicious. Nobody else had mentioned that post and I was expecting you to have some commentary, but instead you just dismissed it and asked me something irrelevant like what I think Trfle would post like if he was a towny voting. I dunno, like something I read and don't think sounds forced? I'm not comparing it to an imaginary trfel post, just reading it along with his filter and feeling it's off. Not sure why you would ask me to imagine a townie post instead of reflecting on the actual post itself. Such a fire post, maybe one I'd be inclined to town read sandro on. Annoyingly followed up by a self-critical backing off. Maybe wary that a town marv could snap back at any second? On December 12 2023 02:57 sandroba wrote: Or maybe I just suck while thinking I'm onto something and expecting you feel the same but actually you are just right and good while I'm bad? A harder pill to swallow but I guess could be true | ||
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On December 12 2023 20:13 marvellosity wrote: Can you actually explain this Trfel partner slip thing to me like I’m 5? With quotes if possible? I did originally write a whole wall when I was engaging sandro about all the possibilities but I felt confused myself about all the different scenarios so bear with me. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On December 11 2023 04:34 sandroba wrote: I think this is a towny observation from rayn, no way dp would take such a one-sided approach favoring a partner in the exchange between me and trfel. I didn't want to give him the benefit of the doubt about this because it's so ambiguously worded there are several interpretations that you can read into. Now that I read it back, I think he probably meant that Rayn's point is good because there's no way a mafia DP would hard defend a mafia Sandroba like that by hard tunnelling trfel (presumably a townie) so there's less credence to it being a slip here and I've read too much into it. The point is really bad because mafia can quite easily do something like that, especially DP because that's his forte, but I think it probably paints rayn and DP in a good light still. Especially with the follow up where sandro says he could be mafia and dp can be town in this scenario (???) + Show Spoiler + On December 11 2023 05:11 sandroba wrote: That's not a defense of me, as I could be mafia and DP town in this scenario. The fact that rayn's brain read that exchange and thought "No way 2 mafia would do that as partners" I think demonstrates a towny trying to solve the game. | ||
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Holyflare
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1) No way DP would favour his mafia partner Trfel in this scenario over me! 2) No way DP would favour his mafia partner me in this scenario by attacking a townie trfel so hard! 3) No way DP would favour his mafia partner me in this scenario by attacking mafia partner trfel so hard! 2 and 3 being slips and 1 being some egregious attempt at trying to get town credit from rayn's thought process how he defaulted to: 4) No way town DP would tunnel unknown trfel over mafia me! as a way to justify this situation I'll never know. It prescribes way too much intent into what DP could or would do as mafia and sandro seems annoyed that I did that to him earlier so I feel like he wouldn't so much do that to DP this erroneously either. At some point I think I'm just having a conversation with myself in these posts but I guess if sandro is mafia I've just reachef the conclusion that it doesn't mean anything for trfel or DP based on these posts but looks good for rayn in general potentially. | ||
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On December 12 2023 20:49 marvellosity wrote: Honestly for me its a bit of a wash as I don’t think that’s what makes sandro mafia (or town) Not so much as a slip as outright calling himself mafia but more a lapse in thought process where you forget you're supposed to be pretending you're town so go out and justify other people's reasoning as being good by forgetting what your alignment is supposed to be. I agree, there's much better points to go for. I think he has had no conclusive push this game. His scum reads and middling reads are really bad and lazy. Somehow I went from being a potential mafia read to neutral despite me basically posting nothing since he called me suspicious. I don't believe his vivax or trfel progressions and I don't think he would be this meek as a town that thought he caught a mafia marv. Especially so given that he shares that sentiment with Palmar and it would be an easy avenue to bolster Palmar's ego for. Somehow trfel drops to one of his top 3 scum reads because of one post that "really sets off alarms" On December 12 2023 00:19 sandroba wrote: Trfel I had been leaning town from the burst of engagement, but this post really set off some alarms for me. Vivax mentioned that he was weary from the bottom feeders on his wagon, and if I was town Vivax I would definitely be all over this post in particular. The wording, tone and reasoning on this post don't seem to match the rest of his filter. Seems like a formal way to justify a vote, looks like it's fabricated and a chore. but sandroba scum reads vivax too so it's a weird avenue of thought to go down I do agree with sandro though (potential for a bus situation) that the trfel post in particular is really lazy and just phoning it in so maybe need to look at trfel a bit more | ||
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On December 12 2023 20:56 DarthPunk wrote: The reason its a slip is because he shouldn't really be drawing a conclusion about my alignment from that post from rayn. The natural thought is "well I know I am town so therefore rayn is correct, we can't be mafia together." The fact that he says that rayn is right and I am town based on that Idea is fucking weird. I don't think he draws a conclusion on your alignment tbh, just one on rayn's thought process that it doesn't matter if you are town or mafia, he just thinks that rayn makes a good conclusion that you aren't paired. Not necessarily that either or both are mafia. | ||
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On December 12 2023 22:37 raynpelikoneet wrote: I have honestly no idea how marv thinks HF is town at this point of the game. Because he interacts with me and wants to know my thought process instead of trying to find out if an obscure timestamp error occurred | ||
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On December 12 2023 23:45 raynpelikoneet wrote: Like he himself appeared to be suspicious of sandroba at that point, but for some reason he votes for me when my post that is most solving in the game is questioning the player he is suspicious of. Your question was bad. Even if I had read it, acknowledged it and mentioned it I still would have given the same reasons to vote for you. You didn't seem to care about any of it and you were just giving reads I didn't think you would give. It's that simple. Get over it. If you want 2 names, I've given sandro and chez (and highlighted a post where chez breaks character that you should look at) but I can't really give you more than that other than I'm going to investigate trfel when I have some free time. I think you look better purely from Sandro's filter. I think dmb, marv, possibly dp, slam all look better from their actions in the night surrounding the vivax lynch. I think Koshi is a bit misguided but I don't think it's in a bad way, he's actively trying to shut down avenues for wagons. Although his last one he tried to shut down was sandroba which I probably need to get in to but I don't think it was done in an agenda-y way. He also raised the point (and was seemingly the only one to acknowledge at the time) my point about chezinu, which seems like good stuff. Palmar is similar to koshi imo. I don't think his agenda has been malicious and I don't think he's pushing things to get the thread to go after mafia. Starting to highlight me for lack of activity is the proper play here as a townie and I think it's more than just going through the motions in that regard. If I had to make an order it would be: Sandro => Chez => Trfel => You => DP => DMB | ||
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On December 13 2023 00:26 raynpelikoneet wrote: because you voted. if you just called me mafia i would be okay with your explanation tbh. but you voted for me to get lynched. Can you point me to a recent town game where I have not put a naked vote on someone and then followed it up in the way that I did here? Guarantee you can't. | ||
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It's a waste of your time and everyone else's to continue this avenue to push. On December 13 2023 00:25 raynpelikoneet wrote: Is marv town because sandroba is mafia, or? What happens if sandroba magically flips town? No, marv is low investment but high co-opperativeness. I don't think he's pushing down routes that are inherently bad and, sure, given I think Sandro is mafia he's a bit up there because of it but it's the things that he wouldn't have to do as mafia that he's doing here that make him seem better to me. Trying to get you to explain your posts about me better, trying to get me to explain the posts about sandro more. Collaboration is the key to success. It's not a strong point and perhaps marv might be in place of DMB but I haven't done much reading of DMB other than skimming the night. Definitely think he's above sandro, chez, trfel and probably you at the very least. | ||
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On December 13 2023 00:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: On page 36 you had marv on your mafia list for quite the opposite reasons. what has changed? ?? | ||
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On December 13 2023 00:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: Or are you saying marv's actions after the lynch are some super townie things that make him more town? Given the fact that I listed several things after that original post and that his collaboration has undeniably become larger over the course of the game AND he was trying to divert to someone I think is mafia, then yes, they are townie actions that lead to me town reading him more. | ||
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On December 13 2023 01:20 raynpelikoneet wrote: Should i work or is anyone here around to talk? feed the corporate machine | ||
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On December 13 2023 07:57 DarthPunk wrote: Vig not big I already said I'm shooting sandro and I'm hard claiming this now. | ||
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just play better as both | ||
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On December 13 2023 18:08 Koshi wrote: How did DMB look better in the night before the lynch? She was not a prominent figure there. I have no idea who DMB is or how they play so I only have this game to go on. There's a bunch of associative speculation that they probably weren't bussing sandro and if I had to look more specifically at just their play there's some good posts distrusting Palmar's reasoning for voting vivax and calling him out that I liked. Also defending vivax: On December 12 2023 11:39 die_meatbaby wrote: Fuck i don´t have a good feeling on lynch V right now. This looks so Townie just trying to not get killed. Fells like impulsive posts from emotions to keep playing. when the votes weren't even close to saving him On December 12 2023 11:17 Grackaroni wrote: Day One Vote Count Vivax (9): Palmar, sandroba (2): Holyflare (1): raynpelikoneet marvellosity (0): Palmar (0): Koshi (0): raynpelikoneet (0): Trfel (0): With 9 votes, Vivax is currently set to be lynched! The deadline is Tuesday, Dec 12 3:00am GMT (GMT+00:00), which is in Not sure if they were the first to say this I can't remember but it certainly started off the train of moving votes and people being more open to swap. You could argue that Vivax was starting to become quite obvious at that point but I think DMB could just shut up if that were the case and sandro was mafia. This is also partly why I think sandro is just mafia too. There's a whole counter wagon on them that spawned to save a townie and they have put 0 thought into it or said anything about it afaik. | ||
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On December 13 2023 19:18 marvellosity wrote: Can town give their thoughts on this post please? Biased but it feels a bit like TMI to me rather than mafia on mafia. You can see the wording. "messed up in reading the thread maybe" and "I don't think it makes him mafia" are key words that people use to defend people when they know their actions are honest rather than phrasing mafia makes to defend a partner who fucked up something. And it felt a bit like sandro was setting me up to look bad if trfel does flip mafia because I don't think there's a lot of thought here. I don't understand how he reaches the point where I sound a bit forced and offer charitability when it should be quite simple to see where I'm coming from here at least. If I agreed with Trfel's attack on Sandroba and I didn't like DP's tunnel of Trfel, what other response would Sandroba be expecting here from a town me? I also think it completely ignores the Palmar point, which I think was a big factor for the rest of that paragraph. I can elaborate on that more but it seemed apparent to me that (going off memory here so hazy) that Palmar either called out DP on his Trfel push or said trfel was looking better or something and DP backed off and tried to play that off as his own original thought imo. Well, at least it seemed like that at the time. Not sure why I should be less charitable to someone defending me and asking me a question. | ||
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On December 12 2023 07:23 sandroba wrote: I feel like rayn, you and koshi are town. Lean town on slam, palmar (move to town if vivax is scum) Neutral on hf, chezinu, dmb I lean scum on vivax, marv, conflicted on trfel. This is pre sandro re-read. I don't think anything on this list changed at all other than somehow adding even more people to it. @Sandroba what is your list now? You also posted: On December 13 2023 07:37 sandroba wrote: As much as I mirrored Koshi's reads in the beginning, he has been skirting by while not doing much of anything. We all know for a fact that yesterday lynch was on a townie and the other viable option (me) I know was town too. Mafia had no reason to stick out their necks and do something to sway the lynch. That makes it more likely that mafia is hiding in the likes of Koshi and Chezinu. Chezinu's presence and engagement in particular has been a lot lower than other times I played with him and he was town. Normally he will try to interact with people and make weird accusation posts trying to get his point across. Does the deadline time not factor in to this read? I don't see how you go from loving koshi enough to have him as a town read to it simply being eroded by 1 night. If you agreed with his vivax read and he's one of the OG people to have that read then how do you justify this? On December 13 2023 07:42 sandroba wrote: dmb also looks bad I don't like this. Your mafia list is now over half the game and you aren't trying to clear town reads. Nobody new got added to your town read list and instead your mafia list just grew here: On December 13 2023 11:56 sandroba wrote: I think mafia is within HF Trfel Chez Marv Koshi DMB. Would leave the last 3 for last maybe? | ||
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On December 13 2023 22:38 sandroba wrote: This is stupid, why would I do this as mafia? Why not just keep my town read on Trfel at that point and just focus on Vivax? To erode your reads and keep options open. Please answer my questions wherever they are. Why aren't you adding town reads to your list? Why aren't you seeing who had good reasons to vote vivax or not? Why aren't you second guessing that your koshi read erosion is just due to timezones vs throwing it completely out the window when you already have like 5+ other scum reads? | ||
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On December 13 2023 23:14 sandroba wrote: HF is just trying to bury me throwing some shade in every single post I make mafia. "Not sure why you do this", "not sure why you do that" You can feel free to replace not sure with "I am sure" to get my actual perspective. | ||
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Even now I'm asking you relevant questions because you're not doing things you should be if you are a townie and you're just throwing things back in my face in an attempt to throw a tantrum and derail progress because the fact is you can't coherently reply to the accusations or give proper answers because there is no good explanation for what you're doing. You can very very easily give more insight into the end of day shenanigans and see the perspectives of people at the time and give us insight into who looks like mafia trying to afk or which of the people joining you and trying to save vivax were doing so in good faith or bad faith and then drawing conclusions from that but you instead just pick out things that aren't relevant like some trfel interaction with me (and again, you haven't acknowledged or given an insight into my reply to this accusation). You're not doing things a townie would do in your situation. You're complaining, you're calling people that are clearly just trying to solve the game mafia and relying aren't actually trying to divert things in a meaningful way. Who are you trying to lynch right now? God knows. Just whining that marv is mafia and that I'm mafia and asking about some irrelevant vig claim. ##vote sandroba | ||
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On December 13 2023 23:28 sandroba wrote: I'm trying to solve the game, your alignment and marv's is in question for me. I made it very clear I want to lynch Trfel. I'm doing what I'm doing and not what you want me to do. You could very easily be doing a ton of other things as well, and so could all the other people in the thread. Again you are not trying to figure out my alignment, you just want to bury me If you want to expose that I'm mafia, you can begin by answering my questions or actually interacting with what I replied about your trfel/hf interaction accusation. You're not doing this. So do it and quit talking about how I'm burying you. Being buried is self-inflicted. | ||
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// ==UserScript== If anyone wants a nifty little script I just wrote this that you can use with something like greasemonkey/tampermonkey to click a post number and it auto copies the url and post number in a url block like #258 for example. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + navigator.clipboard.writeText(`[url=${"https://tl.net" + url}]${msgNumberNode.innerText}[/url]`);other than that, decent | ||
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I think it's just simply that trfel wanted to add more words to his posts about vivax. In 2 or 3 of the posts his takes on vivax are almost meaningless words framed as something that could be construed as scummy. Vivax posted in a non-chronological order (which turned out to not be true) and vivax looks like he's caught up with the thread but going back to old posts (so what?). None of these things make sense to harp on and are just vaguely thrown around to look like trfel is pondering something imo. | ||
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On December 14 2023 02:22 Alakaslam wrote: When Raynpelikoneet next speaks I will pay better attention than I have to Sandroba. I ought not be so biased What are your current goals for the game and who do you think is mafia? Feel like you've kind of petered out since end of day 1 and are just meandering and commenting a bit and I think you've started angling towards me again without actually saying much about it. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler [posts] + #72 - This is the beginning of when trfel didn't like sandro. I think the highlighted part of sandro's post is extremely waffley and bad so like that he's picking it out to pre-empt what he's about to say and get a response to it. ++ #74 - Sandro responds and to me, it looks like he should be town reading slam in #73 but somehow in his original conclusion he downplays the town read. Trfel picks up on this in this post and his next post (#75), indicating that Sandro makes absolutely no read on slam whatsoever even though he writes a lot of lines about him so it's just kind of pointless. ++ There's a bunch of questions thrown out in the next few posts and at least he follows up a bit with sandro. Not sure I like that in #118 he just kinda fobs sandro's response off but I like that he expands what he's thinking to DP. Sandro's post is riddled with open-ended unsureness that didn't seem to have a purpose. I like even more that he tries to question Slam over Slam thinking that all the reactions were overblow and it could just be mafia/mafia theatre. I'm not sure I like that Slam post even (will investigate) but Trfel does a good job of trying to dig into someone that looks like they have a thought process incongruent with theirs. ++ #120 Oh, he basically says exactly what I said above and takes back the town read. Pretty good imo. ++ Same kinda vibe with questioning DP in #124 Next few posts are just a bit of back and forth with marv interjecting and talking to DP about the sureity of his sandro read and it not being very sure. I think #136 the ending feels a bit robotic "I'm very interested to see how he follows it up" is just so generic. I also think #143 is also extremely generic in a way that the post is too formulaicly worded. Like he's just going through the motions of scum reading sandro and waiting for the next step of his programming to happen without interjecting real thoughts. -- Actually kind of like the highlighted bits being pointed out in #146, they don't really make any sense to me (DP saying that mafia likes to take strong commitments early ???). I actually hate DP in these interactions lol, good thing I didn't pay enough attention to them. ++ trfel The next few posts in #156, #157, #159 are all good responses to DP making wtf accusations and then a weird unvote. I like that Trfel wanted it followed up. Gonna stop linking to posts now, cba. #167 is a good question to vivax. Not sure exactly what vivax was going to achieve with his sandro question and it shows trfel is still interested in interactions in and around sandro. #169 is basically a scum read on DP without actually saying as much. I'm not sure why he stops short of outright calling DP mafia. Don't really like it. I guess you could say he doesn't really make a conclusion on sandro too although you could argue that's just a feeler content creation case with more poignant accusations. Don't like this post regardless --- #257 Quite like the initial points on Vivax that trfel talks about but the second half of it seems like something extra tacked on for no reason. If he doesn't know what to make of the order or if it's alignment indicative why does it matter? Feels like adding words for the sake of it and a bit hypocritical in the same respect as his accusation to sandro earlier. -- #262 Think sandro mentioned this in one of his recent posts but I also don't like that he callously threw out the vivax suspicion beforehand, found out it wasn't actually true and then still used it to almost double down on ANOTHER meaningless reason to not like what vivax said. Vivax could have quite easily caught up by skimming and then gone back to poke at questions so seems pretty mediocre. --- As a caveat to the above, in this post above he mentions that he doesn't like that DP has fallen off after the questioning of him (doesn't bring back up the other DP points he disliked before, at least not yet. Just kinda outs it which is fine imo. Don't hate it.) + He makes some throwaway question to me asking why I think rayn is mafia, has some follow up with rayn about vivax's posts again in #272 as if that line of thought even means something anymore. Meh. At least he acknowledges that in the same post and is just more concerned with Vivax's lack of involvement. #287 Points out that I agree with what Vivax is saying (has a overarching view of most of Vivax's posts/stances). Will await to see the conclusion to what I say before questioning whether this is a good post or not because I'd be extra curious about what I said, given my answer was something crap like "I forgot". #328 tries to get vivax (a scum read) to comment on DP (presumably a scum read but kind of unsaid). Good follow up I guess, shows thinking about the game at least, even if an easy post. + #335 A correct take but not sure I understand why he's more concerned about my "overall picture of play" when I've made like 2 posts. Here is where he mentions that DP is probably asleep and wants my thoughts too. Mmmm. Questionable post imo. -- #388 No reads list but Vivax/DP/Koshi (first mention)/Sandro are in his suspect list. Not sure where Koshi came from or how. fuck me I'm bored of investing myself into playing this game it's tedious af, just gonna summarise the rest lot more back and forth with DP about really silly nitpicking points imo. I don't think trfel's points are that bad that DP fell off after the push on him and did not much (will double check between when DP stopped pushing and went to bed to clarify). I also don't think his point about the marv push was that bad either. Koshi read is phoning it in but fine. Shared sentiment. #428 is a bad post (the one talking about DP sleeping with no other push in the thread). ------ his posts about DP calling sandro basically town are correct and DP's arguments are pretty bad faith voting for vivax is consistent and I don't think #666 is that bad given his posts previously, it's pretty much just a summary of what he's been saying, not a hipster new read thing I also kinda liked that he stopped interacting with the DP scum read, the frustration seemed real and I dunno if he'd be that frustrated as mafia? Although would he perhaps be more accusatory if he was town and thought DP was mafia and then go after him more? Maybe he's getting frustrated because he's being misrepresented and can't really fight back properly as mafia? One to think about more. #805 is a whatever defence of marv. Perhaps unwarranted and feels a bit like his defence of me for little reason. #815 possibly like this post #823 does mafia trfel really make this post to a town vivax if he knows this to be true? I'm not so sure he actually does. tl;dr 1) I think Trfel's opening posts on sandro are decent but the suspicion drops off the face of the earth. I don't like that. 2) His argument with DP is extra pointless from DP's side. I don't think the arguments that Trfel presents calling out DP are that bad other than the sleeping thing obviously which is a bit shit but not specifically what he meant. I need to check the timeline here for when DP stopped pushing Trfel and then went to bed because if it's straight away then Trfel's points are bad. If DP stays in the thread a bit aimlessly doing nothing then Trfel's points hold a lot more merit. 3) I think his Vivax suspicion is fine but he throws in a lot of extrenuous details into it that are basically meaningless and he eventually admits that. He defaults to the same kind of argument that he thinks DP is being mafia for (no thread presence or drive) which is an ok read. I actually liked his initial questioning of Vivax over his questions to Sandroba. It shows that he was interested in people interacting with his original scum read. 4) He kind of throws out some free town reads (or at least pressure appeasing reads) on me and marv out of the blue which I feel like I've seen him do before in a previous game, or at least it tickles my brain saying I have somewhere but I can't really get a feel for why he does it. Just seems out of the blue. 5) His argument with DP I think he was mostly correct on and DP was arguing in bad faith. He gets very frustrated with being misrepresented but it doesn't seem like he cares to go the extra step to call DP mafia here or campaign for him. Instead, he leaves and comes back and decides to ignore DP to stop the back and forth (which is fine) but I think he'd be more vocal about suspicions here on his return. 6) I really think that #823 is a post a mafia trfel probably doesn't make to a vivax that he knows is town? 7) I get the overall impression that Trfel is kinda sticking to scum reads and hasn't had much evolution of them? They seem a bit static, even if it appears he's questioning them. I dunno lol, could genuinely see him being town or mafia. I'd be more inclined to call him town, although I'm fully ready to be burnt by that position. Feel like I've wasted my precious time playing this game now. | ||
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On December 14 2023 02:38 Alakaslam wrote: This is correct, and the result of reading Rayn's filter. What about rayn's filter is convincing? | ||
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On December 14 2023 02:48 Trfel wrote: I'm just going to vote for Chezinu, I think he is just mafia. We had a game in the past where we were town together and talked quite a bit, and a game in the past where we were scum together, in fact I think maybe two games, and his effort and engagement with the game feel very scummy. He's capable of much more as town, we all know this. You shouldn't have to beg him to interact with the game. He's even made plenty of posts, the time is there, the desire to do anything about solving the game is not. ##vote Chezinu The house of brown has found it time to end your mafia-ness. Are these really your only current thoughts? Nothing about anyone that's talking? | ||
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On December 14 2023 02:59 sandroba wrote: Okay HF you put in a ton of work, I'm ready to call you not mafia for today. The method which you are using I don't think is correct though. Mafia will try to do their best to emulate their town play in every post, focusing on all the posts like that and accumulating town / mafia points won't work imo. I think focusing on a few bad posts and trying to see if they ever make sense from a town perspective is the way to go. the points are meaningless I just put them down for my own sake I don't add them up the conclusions matter the most | ||
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Figure out some scum reads | ||
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On December 14 2023 03:08 Trfel wrote: I have one, take it or leave it. I already have that read and I'd like some more. What do you think of DMB? You make no mention of them in the entirety of your list. | ||
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On December 12 2023 10:31 die_meatbaby wrote: palmar is simply trying to convince everyone here that they should vote for Vivax. But he is doeing it just in a strange way I mean for sure right know it´s the best option to vote on him because his start in the game was so scumy, but when he rolled mafia in older games he just posts random stuff like memes, strange one liners for a laugh and didn´t really try to make wagon like he did here. Like this last posts he made, feeling like me at my second game where I got lynched as a Doctor on D1 and tried just to convince them so strong that I am town and blue. On the other side i really don´t know who else should get voted here, because nobody looks so scum as he do atm. Actually think this is a bad DMB post, it has all the components of a mafia post: 1) Throw shade at palmar 2) Say the vote on vivax is correct 3) Give a line that shows caution that it might not be the right lynch because he's not doing what he did as mafia last time and is actually doing what DMB did as town one time 4) Find a reason to not leave that wagon anyway and provide no alternatives Trouble is, this is just a post in a vacuum and I think their other posts when vivax looks townie are a lot better. Was anyone there and can talk about the sentiment at the time and if DMB was actually instigating or just following? | ||
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On December 14 2023 18:54 marvellosity wrote: Thoughts on Trfel’s posts since your vote on him? Rayn post good, koshi one not that great. Although not sure it's correct on rayn, I like the sentiment at least. Went to check the last game I played with rayn on here because I felt like there was some other misunderstanding bs but last time he was mafia with me and pointed out something similar he was way more likely to back down on it there. I suppose you could say he's backed down here but it doesn't feel like it's in the same way. | ||
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On December 14 2023 19:25 Palmar wrote: I still think it's scummy that HF thinks I'm town. Skill issue. | ||
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but I don't really know trfel's style of play to know whether he would do that as town | ||
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On December 14 2023 19:40 Koshi wrote: I skimmed this a bit too hard. But yeah. Imo if you are voting Tfrel you are setting up a second town wagon or he is the counterwagon. I thought he was probably townie and then he came out with no scum reads and no real drive to do anything with that. It has since changed after I've put my vote on him but just mulling who to switch to atm. | ||
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Would rather lynch someone that gives us information today obv but do not wifom yourself out of letting him live if you need to make that decision later in the game. | ||
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On December 14 2023 19:44 Palmar wrote: Well I do admit to not being the easiest person to talk to. He almost exclusively wanted to talk about Trfel being mafia. I can summarize the chat quickly if you like. ya plz | ||
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It's 100 but I want to keep up the guise of being reasonable | ||
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On December 15 2023 02:46 raynpelikoneet wrote: I heavily dislike this post and i want HF to put a vote on Chezinu no matter his alignment. Chezinu is genuinely scummy, i tried to get into conversation with him about if he actually believes Trfel is blue or red. It didn't happen. He just kept repeating the same stuff. no because it's boring as shit | ||
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On December 15 2023 02:58 raynpelikoneet wrote: Uhh.. Is it actually chezinu/hf/trfel? Have you become awful at this game or are you literally just mafia? Your reads on me are so stale and bad, you haven't even bothered to check what people are saying and you're just complaining about pointless crap and are going for people like chez who I never in a million years would think you would go for when you've been yelling I'm mafia for 800 years. | ||
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just remember this for tomorrow | ||
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On December 15 2023 12:55 Alakaslam wrote: I was too mad. Idk if Koshi and Marv are scum. But Koshi why did I wake you up so much with this Rayn is. | ||
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I take this back I need to put in more work to leave a better legacy. | ||
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I don't think I'd waste my time on making a trfel filter dive to that extent to come out with an "I dunno" and then immediately vote him after as mafia, it doesn't really make sense, I know basic "mafia" post styles and I just don't care about how I look in posts like that when I'm town and it'd be far more riddled with intention to get trfel lynched. I'm just trying to clear people from being mafia. I also stand by the fact I think the chezinu lynch was shit. Don't really care if he was confirmed mafia (and I said as much). I think lynching someone else for better information and stance taking would have been way more effective. You entered the thread just yelling that I was mafia again, voted for chezinu who was already an extremely runaway and deadset wagon and then didn't have the guts to vote me even though youv'e been sure I'm mafia for the entire game and haven't ever changed your tune. That's extremely bad play. I also think you just By the way, your third quite in your "case" about me is also poor reading comprehension on your part. This is in fact a town read post on Trfel. I'm just saying I don't think I agree with his points on you but I think the point of view he presented was an acceptable train of thought. This feels like a new low for you. Honestly just not impressed and think you're mafia trying to throw anything you can to make your point of view stick but I'm trying extremely hard to be charitable with that take. | ||
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On December 15 2023 03:01 Rels wrote: Day Two Vote Count sandroba (4): marvellosity, Koshi, Palmar, Chezinu (4): Trfel, Alakaslam, sandroba, raynpelikoneet Trfel (1): die_meatbaby (0): Palmar (0): Not Voting (1):die_meatbaby With 4 votes, sandroba is currently set to be lynched! The deadline is Friday, Dec 15 3:00am GMT (GMT+00:00), which is in Slight take back. It wasn't a dead set lynch but it very much felt like it was at the time so now I'm a bit conflicted. Will read back. | ||
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On December 15 2023 23:41 Holyflare wrote: Slight take back. It wasn't a dead set lynch but it very much felt like it was at the time so now I'm a bit conflicted. Will read back. I re-take this back, rayn's vote looks absolutely awful, especially considering the posts around it. | ||
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On December 16 2023 03:31 raynpelikoneet wrote: Holyflare's fliter is very meek throughout the whole game. There is no posts that raise eyebrows into any direction. Then at the same time he claims he is busy and that's why he is not playing up to standards or whatever, you know what i mean, and then he claims also that if he was mafia he would not make those wishy-washy posts because he could do better. It doesn't make sense, if he has no time to play better (as town or as mafia), why would he play better as mafia? Not what I said. I said I know words, phrases and posting styles that are traditionally mafia oriented. If I were not really invested mafia trying to not get too much attention I wouldn't end a big post in a conclusion that ended up almost 50/50 with a town lean because that is obviously a waste of my precious time I'd have to influence the thread or steer it in a direction. You should know what my game style is as mafia and it's most certainly not whatever you're pretending to think it is now. What influence have I had to inject in this game that I needed to? I just have a good time chatting through things with people and point things out occasionally and that's all that's been required of me. You can see the thought processes behind what I'm writing as clear as day. Did you look into why I decided to make a post about trfel? No. Your case is so surface level it's insane. You're not paying attention to my motivations and that's extremely uncharacteristic and uncharitable and I think you're just trying to hammer home any point you can for the sake of it. Think about it from my point of view of sandroba progression, admitting that sandroba is starting to look a lot better, acknowledging points sandro made about trfel finally and reading back DPs filter to determine what he thought because he was also trfel focused. Want to get to the bottom of trfel because he's a key slot that needs solving and coming out with what I said. If you read Trfel's filter what would your conclusion be? If you read through my post what points did I specifically raise that you think should have swayed me further? You look at one line out of hundreds and incorrectly summarise the thought I put in throughout and try and whittle it down to nothingness. That's not town rayn imo. | ||
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On December 16 2023 03:36 raynpelikoneet wrote: Also if i accuse of town HF of something, he tries to reason with me, at least up to some point. Here he has not done any of that (while my argument was at least reasonable, regardless of if it makes him mafia or not). And that's why because noone understood my argument (i still don't know why), he had perfect chance to just call me boring, stupid and all time low, and i don't remember what other names -- i.e. just attack my credibility instead of trying to talk to me (even when he didn't believe i am mafia). I don't understand why town!Holyflare thinks not reasoning with town!rayn should have a "good" outcome in any case. I can understand why defaulting into ad hom against town!rayn should result in good outcome for mafia!Holyflare. I explained my whole thought process, we had a back and forth about it talking normally and you then ignored everything I had to say after and asked other people about it who said the same things I did and then have just said I'm mafia the entire game while reading almost nothing I wrote or interacting with me (your mafia read!). It seems like you don't actually care about being correct on me. I'm just labelled as something and pushed off to the side. You don't try and look for instances that you were maybe wrong about me, you're not playing constructively, you are destructive. Look at Koshi telling you about my chezinu points and posts (you ignored), look at slam saying the same thing (you ignored). What exactly do I work with here if you don't care? | ||
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On December 16 2023 04:06 raynpelikoneet wrote: Your "thought process" on my original case was exactly this This is not an answer to what i said. Or if it is, it's a bad one. After that you started deflecting from the subject. I don't think this is true but if it is it's because I know there's literally nothing to say to you at that point that would make you think otherwise because it's impossible to work with you when you've drawn a conclusion as either alignment. There was literally no avenue where you offered an explanation for me being town (the correct decision) and instead you just shut down my correct line of thought and never interacted with me again. Which is particularly why I think you are mafia, you have never bothered once to show to people after that interaction what other things I have done that are mafia-like, you haven't questioned whether you've been wrong and you most certainly haven't appeared in the thread to ever evaluate anything you've thought about me. We can see that because it's literally the first time you've apparently opened my filter just now to try and point out things to people. Even after I've pointed out one of the three wishy-washy posts wasn't actually wishy washy, it was a town read on trfel you haven't admitted you were wrong or backed down in the slightest. Your inability to re-evaluate is IMO a definitive mafia trait of yours. | ||
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My thought process about the day can be surmised into: Sandro is probably mafia Palmar announced he has mason, I say he should mason sandro (no incentive to promote this if sandro is town) I spend some time looking at the game state from the perspective that sandro is mafia and notice that chez isn't really being mentioned by anyone in the game when mafia generally love bringing him up as an option if he's town or even just town mentioning about him but nobody is doing that so game state wise he's probably mafia so I check out his filter. I notice the character break specifically when he's talking about sandro which kind of doubles down my perspective about their association ~lots of irl work in between~ palmar posts the logs and I don't think they're particularly great sandro counters all that and starts flinging stuff out about his reads and palmar and whatever. This whole situation makes me think Palmar is mafia tbh, although I'm not invested enough to care about pushing it and it's just easier to say nothing and wait for my chance. I think sandro looks better regardless so I start entertaining his world that trfel is mafia. I also went to read back a bit of the night posts about what DP was saying (the stuff about DP sleeping etc, which I still think DP's pushes were really uncharitable to trfel). Trfel's filter doesn't really give me much in terms of conclusion. I still think there's an off chance he could have been mafia but I still think it's a coin flip and even after everything now still think it's possibly a coin flip, although I didn't pay much attention to people's stances around chez or yesterday's wagon at all. I dunno really what happens after this I wasn't really around much. I just know that the game state indicates chezinu is mafia and I don't want people to forget that (my 100% mafia post) and then slam kinda rolls with it. I think chez is an awful lynch, don't really care if he's mafia or not he will still be mafia in X days when we can lynch him anyway and a wagon on someone else would have been more useful. I don't really care enough to put in the energy to derail to something else because it's a lot of hassle (and I'd rather chill not in the game) to push onto someone like you and palmar and chez is a shrug ok fine lynch. You make some bad posts about me again and don't acknowledge what people are saying and you vote chezinu while sentiment is obviously pointing there after saying I am probably mafia. I don't think it's a good look for you, you didn't seem to evaluate anything and I don't think a town you ever votes there. Looks a lot like a bus vote. I try and bait you into voting me and you don't which solidfies that imo you were just trying to get credit and you don't actually think I'm mafia. Here we are. | ||
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On December 16 2023 04:58 sandroba wrote: HF main points for being mafia for me are: - trying to bury me while it seemed like I would be a viable lynch - Arguing against the Chezinu lynch even though he thought he was 99% mafia due to "no info" bullshit - Not really trying to get anyone lynched d2 pretty much just following palmar marv koshi Points for being town: - He seems to be trying to put in time to investigate stuff, that Trfel analysis looks genuine to me - He gives off a vibe of self-assured innocence that comes off in his posts. - Flat out calling Chezinu 99% mafia and refusing to vote for him is very balsy for mafia I stand by still thinking you were mafia. I think you only became "findable" after the palmar situation and even then I'm still hesitant about it because I don't like your directioning/positioning with what you're saying currently or what you were saying just after the chez stuff. In my mind you should be tripling down on palmar and trfel but you're doing some weird thing where you're keeping me at arm's reach still and not really comitting to trying to find me or investigating any of my stances or mindset. I didn't argue against the chez lynch to any meaningful extent other than one post saying I think it was shit and I will triple down and still say I think it was a shit choice even if I knew he was very likely to be mafia. I don't advocate for the stance of always getting mafia being good, I think even a lynch on a townie that people had taken stances on would have just been as good, perhaps better. Although he was the rber so more fortuitous for us in the long run. I believe information and forcing people to do things that is uncharacteristic for them or puts them in positions they don't want to be in is a much better situation. I'm not that invested in this game to care what happens if the direction is fine with what I'm thinking at the time. If the direction goes wayward I'll interject with some of my own work (see the trfel stuff when I thought you were looking a bit better) but if I don't have to be in the game I'll try not to be. | ||
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On December 16 2023 04:41 raynpelikoneet wrote: Here is timeline: ------(1)------------(2)-----> at (1) rayn questions sandroba at (2) Palmar makes his first post Holyflare, you voted for me after that. You were asked for your reasoning. You said one of the reasons was my town read on Palmar. Now this makes it clear you have read until (2). We discuss this further, and it becomes apparent you have not processed anything i have written properly enough to even realise i am at point (1) questioning (with my only relevant post in the game atm) your scumread sandroba. I call you out saying you cannot have thought about my posts properly, because you haven't even read me questioning your scumread sandroba (backed up by your own words). To which you answer "oh i just wanted to get a vote down" and some other shit. But this doesn't make any sense because you already had made a thought process on voting rayn, which you disclosed before. I understand i am not very good at english or not very good at explaining my shit, but this doesn't make any sense. None of the answers make any sense with what actually happened, and what actually should have been the thought process if anything was true. It's annoying people can't even understand this. I did not think about your posts properly, we are in agreement here. I was not that invested in the outcome of my vote as you seem to think I was. I thought your posts looked mediocre, I missed your question to sandroba (although I still think it's irrelevant to the points I made about you) and I thought what I was saying about you made sense enough to me to outline it in an entry post explaining my thoughts. 1) existing or not existing is only relevant to one of the very last sentences I wrote and that you bolded and nothing more in the 30 or so lines in that case. If you remove the word question from my post, does what I say about you disappear? The answer is no, and thus the fact you keep talking about 1) mattering to the situation is what is very confusing. I understand the english part and that's why I'm trying my best to avoid talking about this because to me what I am saying is very obviously explainable and I feel like I did a good job of explaining what I meant with it and why what you're saying isn't really relevant because even if I was mafia, I simply have no need to lie or fluff up my post with this questioning bit. The simple thing is the word question is irrelevant and you can replace it with "push" or nothing and the sentiment of my post remains. I am town. That's it. Nothing more. If you are town we can try and work past this game and just go after Palmar or something easy because I think he looks a bit silted atm. So even if you think I'm mafia and I think you're mafia we can probably find a mutual ground here and look into him. | ||
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On December 16 2023 05:25 raynpelikoneet wrote: Cool, then you understand maybe 35% of what i was doing D2, and i think i succeeded. You think you were baiting me and I think I was baiting you :shrug: | ||
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On December 16 2023 05:32 raynpelikoneet wrote: See this is why i thought, and one one of the reasons i still think you're mafia. You voted for me, you claimed reasoning for your vote. You didn't read my posts properly. I didn't, and i don't believe you did that as town. Very well documented that I do in fact do this as town. | ||
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2) The problem i have here is that if youre telling the truth i would expect town!HF to get into discussion with me about it, that's what this is pretty much about. Since what i know from you, that's what you usually do. This is a quote from our last game we played together btw. You were mafia, I was town. So it's not like I would actually get into a discussion with you any more than I would there. Why are you saying I should have behaved differently? | ||
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On December 16 2023 05:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: I can work with you. I don't honestly expect anyone to have an opinion on what i say, nor do i care about anyone having an opinion what i say. I am probably lynched tomorrow no matter what, i don't care. I am just here to figure out who is mafia, for my own amusement. People believe my reads or they don't. I can't work with you. I don't want to talk about this with you, especially with you. I have already said what i have to say, and i think you're mafia. If you have something else to talk about please do. My reads are not set in stone, and even if they were i am not gonna claim it until the end of night phase. Wait which one is it? lol Did you forget to delete one? | ||
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chezinu streak or something idk when that was | ||
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On December 16 2023 06:25 sandroba wrote: Look everyone I think is mafia has done some townie shit at some point. Palmar may very well be mafia, and the more other people like you rayn and koshi post the more I think he is due to POE. He has done some shady shit, I don't think he tried to figure out my alignment at all in the QT. Let me do a recap: I was asking him to take a stance on a player I suspect (Trfel) to see if I can get a read from his reasoning. He did not engage, just stated Trfel is town/ I also mentioned Chez to him which I said was giving me mafia tells, to which he responded that he doesn't read trolls. He then asked me to claim blue, to which I asked why he wants to know, then he started to say things like he was mafia. A bit later he said just kidding okay, not really claiming mafia, which I found dumb and suspicious. He wanted to talk about things like pretend I'm mafia, who do we kill, etc, just a lot of trolling. He never asked me for a read or an explanation of a read. After skipping some troll topics he proposed, we started talking about the DP NK. Why does DP get NK'ed. Assuming everyone is town - removing slam, chez, trfel, dmb which prob are never killed n1 - rayn hf koshi didn't do enough, I was widely suspected. That leaves him marv, dp - which means dp is the most dangerous out of the 3 and probably him and marv are just being wrong and stupid if town. He says mafia is prob afraid to shoot him he is protected. I ask him why he was reading me scum to begin with. No answer. I remind him on the slam comment he pointed out that I noticed and dismissed as null. But then pressed him on that he made a serious post later admitting he also had no real read on Slam. So why did he think I'm scum. He reverts to trolling saying that slam bit is 100% reason to base a read on. A bit more conversation going nowhere. Says he has to go, thinks I'm pretty townie in there and we talk more later, mybe about dmb and rayn. I ask him to comment on my collection of scummy posts by Trfel in the thread, he goes back to mafia claiming, saying he has an agenda. Next day when I do catch him online he reverted back to asking me to claim blue. At this point I see what he posts in thread and just am done with entertaining the thought he might be town, say he is just mafia - ask if marv is his partner. Later on after I see trfel slam and marv vote Chezinu against my wagon, I share with him my new reads, ask him to explain his DMB town read, but he is not there. To his credit he does give me an explanation about how if she was mafia why would she not buddy up to him, instead of being pissed off, after all he was lynching vivax, why she is pissed off that we were lynching vivax. Seems flimsy to me, but after that DMB starts posting some paranoid things after the flip and I share with him I've come around to the dmb town read. But he is never there again. He never asks me anything anymore. At this point he should be like 95% sure I'm town or if he was just super stubborn at the very least think it's a strong possibility. He does not engage anymore, doesn't ask me shit. Is never online when I am even when he is posting in the thread. This is a good post and I'll lynch palmar for it. | ||
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On December 16 2023 06:25 raynpelikoneet wrote: can you please tell me how sandroba lynch was breaking up when i came to the thread? This is also why I scum read you and think your bait didn't work and why I tried to bait you btw. The vote was very clearly breaking up on sandro and going to chez and you came in imo at a time for prime credit after saying nothing much about chez, ignoring what other people were saying about chez and just essentially appearing. While doing this you were throwing around more meaty accusations on me and still just letting me sit around without engaging anyone else about it even though the whole premise for the chez wagon to start was slam quoting my post and asking to go there. | ||
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On December 16 2023 06:36 Holyflare wrote: This is also why I scum read you and think your bait didn't work and why I tried to bait you btw. The vote was very clearly breaking up on sandro and going to chez and you came in imo at a time for prime credit after saying nothing much about chez, ignoring what other people were saying about chez and just essentially appearing. While doing this you were throwing around more meaty accusations on me and still just letting me sit around without engaging anyone else about it even though the whole premise for the chez wagon to start was slam quoting my post and asking to go there. I'm starting to think you may be town in some part of my brain at the very least. Sandro's post v good. | ||
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On December 16 2023 06:37 raynpelikoneet wrote: Okay, explain me how this was the sentiment. If you weren't in the thread you don't understand the vibe it's just easy to tell. Sandro looked so much better after the mason thing that his wagon dying was a foregone conclusion. Thus the question of who is next is in the air. There is not a single consensus scum read or proper push floating around and I've mentioned that I think chez is 100% mafia at some point. Marv is kinda aimless and defending palmar. Other lhf like dmb look fine, trfel just got cased as 50/50 and then started to look better too. Slam enters and gives people direction, a bunch of people (that weren't even voting chez at the time either) start agreeing he's an ok wagon to default to. Many people town read many other people. It just is what it is. | ||
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On December 16 2023 06:36 raynpelikoneet wrote: Why do i sheep marv? I genuinely read the thread, commented on anything that was not boring. Many people were acting like Chezinu is mafia, but were voting for sandroba. I thought both of them are mafia. I decided to see what happens if i vote for Chezinu (namely what HF does). Everyone starts acting weird (namely you and HF). I decide well if it causes this much shit here, i'm gonna keep my vote here. Why is that? Have you considered that we thought your vote was weird because it was random and uncharacteristic lol? Helpful to know that this occurred at least. | ||
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On December 16 2023 06:43 raynpelikoneet wrote: Who was going to switch? You were not. Koshi was not (until marv did) Marv was not (until the beating stuff happened, which noone had any idea about at the time) Palmar was not (until everyone else had switched WHO WAS GOING TO SWITCH? Chezinu was going to vote for sandroba 100% of the time. If i had dropped my vote on sandroba, i think 95% of the time sandroba gets lynched instead of Chezinu. I probably would have switched at some point tbh just didn't see the need to because I thought it was just going to happen anyway without me and if you hadn't have voted there I may well have been convinced by slam at that point too. Koshi was already mentioning it before you voted. Marv was already thinking sandro looked better before that imo. Palmar is likely mafia so irrelevant. It's not the WHO that's important here, it's the sentiment and what direction you think the thread is going to go. If you think that day ends on sandro getting lynched before slam started the chez stuff I'd think you were wrong. | ||
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Regardless I don't think sandro gets lynched there either way before that still. You can believe it or not it's my opinion. | ||
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On December 16 2023 07:14 sandroba wrote: You are. At the point Rayn voted I still thought I would likely be the lynch. Only after when marv switched I thought there was hope. You are going by pure vote analysis and I think that's wrong. You were correct I misremembered the timings though. I just reread like page 92 (or wherever palmar talks about what you talked about in your chat) to just when rayn voted and it's extremely obvious chez is going to die and not you imo. You were on fire smashing marv and palmar and none of them engaged on revealing more elaborated points on you. You trfel slam and then even koshi said chez was a good lynch. Koshi was warming up to it. Rayn's entry is really fucking weird still imo and very jarring given what's going on because he just interjects himself right at the part where it becomes an inevitability to me. His explanation of it being a reaction test kind of weakly adds up though so it is what it is. Felt really disgusting at the time though. Palmar and marv look really bad in these interactions, although I get more of a feeling that marv was just baited by a mafia palmar than maliciousness. | ||
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On December 16 2023 07:20 raynpelikoneet wrote: You have to elaborate on this. Because if i had put my vote on sandroba (5-3), and Chezinu (obviously) votes for sandroba (now let's assume i am mafia and Chezinu is mafia), the vote is (6-3). Maybe you can say that sandroba is not getting lynched, but that doesn't happen without an event that we don't know about, like marv's. Which is why i said i think marv's vote might have solved the game for me. Because this line of arguing is just simply not reasonable. You're basically telling i voted for Chezinu because i knew Chezinu is gonna get lynched before an event that i have no way of knowing of happens. I am telling you that because I can see the events unfolding yes. I really don't think anyone reading should have been going for sandro at that point in time and it's insanely obvious to me where sentiment was going. Marv's event is completely irrelevant to the situation imo. | ||
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On December 16 2023 07:22 raynpelikoneet wrote: Why is it a throw away vote? Also i don't really see why i have to comment on all the shit that's being going on, when it was basically same stuff D1, just different conclusions (on Trfel -- like people decided Trfel is now scummy like in spot of Vivax, nothing else changed pretty much)? Sandro getting masoned, palmar explaining the mason logs and sandro disputing it and arguing with palmar and marv for pages and then you saying sandro was still mafia with chez and me seemed extremely ludicrous. You should have commented on the mason stuff because that's how the game works, you talk about your opinion on information so we make more informed decisions. I found it really unbelievable you said the team was sandro/hf/chez when I pointed out that chez was like 100% mafia, highlighted the connection about sandro and chez and you made no reference to that and ignored koshi and slam when they mentioned it to you. It seemed heavily like you were bussing the soon to be chez wagon. | ||
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On December 16 2023 07:29 sandroba wrote: I'm not going by pure vote analysis at all. Didn't feel like that at all since nobody was saying that in the thread. Maybe for you reading the thread it felt like that, but people were not voicing that opinion at that point. I think you should reread it because they are. Trfel koshi you, the last thing I said was chez 100% mafia, slam pushing it. The momentum is all there. Who is pushing for your lynch? Marv, palmar and that's it. Palmar is discredited by multiple people and not many were listening to marv. It might not have felt like it to you because you were in the weeds duking it out with them but it's very obvious on a reread as a third party to the discussion. All these people are voicing that opinion on chez btw. | ||
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On December 15 2023 00:16 Koshi wrote: @Slam: What do you make of this point HF made? Is it something mafia Chez would do? On December 15 2023 01:01 Koshi wrote: Damn. I am all up for that tbh. On December 15 2023 01:01 Koshi wrote: Marv should we switch? There is no way this is mafia slam and sandroba doing this right? On December 15 2023 01:03 Koshi wrote: I can't believe slam is mafia. Chez is liability. Sandroba/Chez still possible. Sandroba is posting so extra day isnt that bad. If this is someone looking like they're going to stay on sandroba then we can end this convo here lol | ||
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On December 16 2023 07:41 raynpelikoneet wrote: It definitely looked like that after i voted, until marv voted. Ya but this convo isn't about that it's about what it looked like when you placed your vote and the mindset of people at the time. Can you see why my thought process is that your vote looks like a bus? Can you see why koshi thinks your vote is weird etc. All very clear to me. | ||
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On December 16 2023 07:48 raynpelikoneet wrote: I haven't really come that far, what's yours? You've admitted my thought process can come from a townie. I think yours makes sense from someone thinking about how to bait people and not really knowing what's going on in depth. I think Koshi looks really good, I think sandro and slam look very good from it. Trfel is ok, I can see him thinking his stances were correct (even if you called it stupid), it's likely he just didn't think of the obvious answers at the time about sandro motivations but I don't think he looks particularly bad. Marv looked bad in interaction with sandro but his thing with sandro after (and his posts for most of the game other than that) very likely makes him town. Palmar looks bad, DMB is just ??? Obsessed with palmar to the point I think they're overcompensating a partner interaction bad. Can't think if I've missed anyone. | ||
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On December 16 2023 08:42 marvellosity wrote: You don’t think they do? I mean I know you answered this but O.o I’m sort of getting the feeling that literally the only good thing I’ve done this game is vote Chez and apart from that I’ve defended mafia and tried to lynch a townie. Finding mafia is not important tbh. You found townies and made right decisions and that's what matters | ||
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Dissect Palmer's filter together, ignore marv when he says Palmar is town and discuss :D Last one might be tricky if it's not DMB but I really just think the blue read on me, the obsession with Palmar all game etc is just not a good look. | ||
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On December 16 2023 11:12 Alakaslam wrote: How about Whine Ask to be lynched Slam votes chez Neuron activation Why does that NAI? You are on fire my dude. Very good game. | ||
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##vote Palmar v busy today so no elaboration atm | ||
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You got it. 0. | ||
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On December 17 2023 22:38 marvellosity wrote: This mason thing is a good example. I understand and read what you posted. But actually nothing that you posted should have totally overturned HFs read on palmar. It wasn’t so different to what palmar said, it’s just a matter of perspective. When I read your summary, sandro, this is what I thought - Palmar is still behaving like Palmar, and maybe his report on your chat is just born out of his scumread in you. Palmar will have known you’d post your version at some point, it’s not like he was the only one who could summarise the chat. None of the mason chat overturned my view of palmar. The state of the game and what people are pushing is what overturned my read on palmar. I think he's just in the periphery of the game, commenting on it and following thread sentiment while affecting no real change. I get that you think I'm mafia because I'm not pushing X world view or tunneling Y townie but that's not really how I play anymore, I am a way more co-operative player now and I just try and find townies and then solve through the PoE. I think I've managed to do that this game. I don't have the investment, or real inclination to want to push my view on anymore, I just haven't felt the care to do it. If I have to I will (and it looks like I might have to) but I don't want to put in the effort knowing that quite a few people will brush it aside as "oh, HF can do this effort as mafia too so it doesn't mean much". I also get that trying to get Palmar lynched is a tough task and it's why I haven't really brought it up. If my ultimate goal today was to get Palmar lynched by doing nothing, do you think Koshi would be dead lol? Not a chance. I haven't even pushed that world view. NKA is a waste of most people's time. I want to fight for a lynch that I want but I also don't want to put the effort in to get that. If you want to know why I think Palmar is mafia I think you just look at what he's doing over a large span of time rather than individual posts and arguing over semantics. I think his world view is not narrowing, it's expanding. He listed 3 town reads for example, one of them being DMB, and yet has simultaneously thrown out things like "DMB has not really mentioned HF" and "oh, what about DMB?" etc etc. His read on you is ??? he purports a town read but it's basically a null. His view on rayn? Who knows, he makes it seem like he doesn't have one. I don't think there's really anyone in the game that you can say Palmar has a definitive outlook on. Slam is now someone who should get vigged, which is blatantly just a catchphrase at this point because it's obvious we don't have a vig so it's just empty words. There's also the association between DMB and Palmar which you can agree or disagree on I don't really care. You should know better that I would fight tooth and nail as mafia than I currently am. I'm just apathetic as a townie. | ||
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I also don't think it's scummy to town read a Palmar who got a vivax killed when I also thought Vivax was mafia, saw the same things and was fine going to bed with that world view. I think what Palmar posted after that lynch was vindicating enough from someone that did wrong to try and correct their mistake and look for the people that were apathetic to the vivax wagon and search there. Those are all fine actions and primarily why I town read him. I don't think I would really think otherwise. Why would I crusade for his wagon and call him mafia there ordinarily? What about how that went down was a bad look for Palmar that I should have picked up on and pushed? | ||
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On December 17 2023 23:24 marvellosity wrote: Palmar has been very specific that he is treating me as a null read until lylo forces his hand. To be honest, I don’t know why this is, and I also don’t want to ask him, because I don’t think he wants to answer. I think Palmar has his own personal reasons for doing that. That’s not how he approaches me if he’s mafia, not a chance. It’s too random and specific a play. Mafia just don’t do that. Because he’s not mafia. And you can keep repeating that and maybe it is true and if it is then we are all looking in the wrong place for mafia. I just don't think it is and I think he's keeping you at arm's length to kill you off and not make you look in his direction. So it is what it is, we both have views we're adamant about and I won't change mine without useful information on what he's done that isn't very your situation specific and you won't change yours. We achieve nothing here. | ||
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On December 17 2023 23:27 marvellosity wrote: So he’s mafia because he didn’t hard push you? Or? He's mafia because he has done nothing appreciable after the vivax lynch. Pushing me at whatever juncture is by the by. I think him not pushing me here to any meaningful extent probably makes him mafia yeah. He resorts to his catchphrases of the not scum reading him and the not pushing stuff but hasn't given me the benefit of the doubt of reading me like he has other people because it's not in his best interest to do so because I'm one of the few options he has left. | ||
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On December 17 2023 23:29 marvellosity wrote: Also, I haven’t said this line of reasoning once — it’s the first time. It's semantics, I think he's more than capable of knowing how you'd react to a given read on you given the situations this game but, again, it's a waste of time talking about it. I'm more than happy to look into other people if you wanna talk about them if you're 1000% certain palmar is town. I don't care about being wrong on mafia reads. I want to clear other people if we can. | ||
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On December 17 2023 22:30 marvellosity wrote: Palmar is town. I’ve 180d on rayn again and I think he’s town. I think sandroba is town. Mafia just sits in the rest. Slam probably unlynchable today if it’s him. So between Trfel and DMB. That’s what I’m going to need to try to magic the time up to figure out. Quoting this for when I get in later | ||
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On December 17 2023 09:42 Palmar wrote: As I said, I don't really. The points I have against him right now are: 1) He did very little early in the game. He was at the bottom of my "people who did shit on day 1" list outside of chez/slam 2) I genuinely expected HF to get into a massive argument with me on night 1 for being wrong on Vivax. 3) Like I've accused you of, I don't think he has changed any hearts and minds in this town. 1) So? 2) Can you elaborate on why I should have found you mafia? What specifically should I have found you mafia for? 3) What hearts or minds was I supposed to change? People who I think should have died have generally died. | ||
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On December 18 2023 00:16 die_meatbaby wrote: you guys can tell me I am paranoid about palmar beeing mafia but that it just an insane mafia play right there Why are you pretending like nobody in this game reads palmar as mafia and you're the only one fighting an uphill battle? Why have you never voted palmar? Who is mafia with palmar? | ||
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On December 18 2023 01:56 Palmar wrote: So I actually have one really stupid reason to think HF may not be scum. But it’s so weak I’m not moving my vote for now. On day 1 he asked about the number of mafia team members. That was such an immensely stupid post that I’m not sure if scumhf has the balls to do it. But if anyone has the balls it also might be him. it's different on MU, it would be 2 mafia because they like mafia having an extra day struggle | ||
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On December 18 2023 02:08 Palmar wrote: Btw who has the mason thing today? Slam already said he has it and masoned me | ||
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On December 18 2023 02:19 sandroba wrote: HF please link me your best mafia performance game none of it matters, it's all in my profile my old ones here but I'm a different player now (maybe the mountaintop one idk) https://www.mafiauniverse.com/database/view/players/profile/?id=7356&filter_type[]=mechanic&filter_value[]=normal if you want more recent MU games. Either way, I don't have that much time so your mileage may vary comparing. | ||
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On December 18 2023 02:27 sandroba wrote: The link is broken, do you have anything on TL that's 2020+? https://www.mafiauniverse.com/ just find the link to the database page on there but I'm telling you this is a waste of time (and I've also told you that I've done the player count thing as both alignments so it doesn't mean anything). | ||
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On December 18 2023 00:25 Holyflare wrote: 1) So? 2) Can you elaborate on why I should have found you mafia? What specifically should I have found you mafia for? 3) What hearts or minds was I supposed to change? People who I think should have died have generally died. Did you answer this? | ||
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On December 18 2023 05:05 Palmar wrote: 1 and 3 are similar. You’re just kinda… there. I mean if you think I’m scum it means you joined a mafia led wagon on day 1. Don’t you think that might be a reason to do something? 2 is just… experience. I often lead day 1 lunches and I dread mislynching with you in the game because you sometimes tunnel it so hard. That’s at least one of the meta reads I have on you. Why are you justifying my actions earlier in the game on a mindset I couldn't possibly have had? I didn't think you were mafia then, I agreed with the wagon and reasoning. There's nothing more to be done there. It's only since the chezinu wagon that I've thought about what you've done since and it is basically have no input on anything meaningful. Even now you've somehow eroded your 1 of 3(!) town reads and lumped DMB in a team with me. What specifically about Rayn's responses to you in the thread led you to change your stance on him? | ||
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On December 18 2023 05:12 Palmar wrote: I mean are you disputing that a player who kinda just coasts along in the thread and follows sentiment, never at the forefront of anything is somewhat scummy behavior? Can you tell me a time you've ever seen me be lazy and meander through a game doing not much as mafia? I'll wait the eternity it takes you to find one. | ||
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On December 18 2023 05:15 Palmar wrote: No but not as town either. So I default to what I think about a generic player. The last at least 3 games on this site I have done exactly that. As town. | ||
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On the one hand you try and justify something based on meta when it suits you, on the other you ignore meta when it doesn't. There is no coherence here and it looks like all you care about is making a narrative fit (something you've been intimating all game). You haven't tried to read into things I've said or how I've interacted with other players and what I've tried to arrive at. I can tell because you assume our ways of finding mafia are different when I've made at least 3 different posts TODAY even (and last night) explaining that I don't care about finding mafia reads, I care about finding town reads and then poeing down the smaller pool and yet it's clear you haven't tried to see me doing that at any point. I think way more highly of your play and I respect it but this ain't it chief. | ||
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Imo way worse yeah | ||
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If you are mafia and used the situation to town read sandro in that way then I think so ya. I don't think you would though personally but other people have ideas. | ||
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We're masons and although we haven't really said much I think he's bringing up thoughts about you two that I have also had myself but that he doesn't want to post in the thread. I think the fact he even brought it up to begin with to me is really good. That, coupled with diverting to chez, having good trains of thoughts on you earlier (even if they weren't good in a logical sense, they seemed tonally like he believed it at least). I don't really see him on a team with anyone else. | ||
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Or what that means for dmb. Doesn't feel like a last ditch attempt at pairing or whatever since they've thought I was blue for like 2 days at least so idk. Bad vibes about the whole game I guess. | ||
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On December 18 2023 06:16 marvellosity wrote: Are you guys actuallly going to lynch Palmar? You better be right or I am going to be unbearable after the flip. Then again if I’m wrong it’s massive mafia depression so it’s lose lose really… Fight harder for your wagon if you're that concerned | ||
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On December 18 2023 07:42 Palmar wrote: But let's play another game HF. Let's say all the people who have been threatening to lynch me actually jump in, so that's the 3 current votes + rayn and sandroba. Well, since I'm town, not all of those 5 people are town. Find me one mafia in that list. What part don't you understand about my dmb read lol? Still think they're just newbie mafia who is using you as a partner to try and get credit for being "correct" the entire game. Nothing about their read on you adds up. Failing that I have some theories about trfel being a bit too monotonous that I'd like to investigate, maybe relook at rayn for not really caring about the game but I don't really think I'd do that bit because even if his posts are bad and his pushes non existent and he doesn't try and get town reads I think he at least believes he should be getting credit for things like the chez wagon etc which is probably an ok look. I don't think it's sandro, there's a possibility marv is overplaying my skill to people in a bid to discredit how townie I've been that I've been mingling in the back of my mind too but I think I've maybe been eroding my read on marv today because all he's particularly done is defend you and call me townie and yet the vote is still on me but the rest of the gameplay probably says otherwise. I still think slam is just town. Who else we got? I think that's about it really. Palmar > DMB > Rayn/trfel > marv > sandro > slam | ||
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On December 18 2023 07:50 Palmar wrote: Does it bother you or make you happy that pretty much everyone seems to want to kill dmb? Not really there's a lot of reasons. Do you think any mafia would want to defend dmb? Feels like that wagon is inevitable and if they are mafia they'd be trying to take cred on it at some point. | ||
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On December 18 2023 07:51 Palmar wrote: So why are you trying to murder me and not her? Because their alignment is based on your alignment and I don't trust anyone else in this game to lead a wagon on you after me. | ||
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On December 18 2023 07:55 Palmar wrote: But me, her dearest scumbuddy, has actually somewhat defended her, and I'm absolutely not gonna take credit if she's lynched. In fact, I asked you earlier about your theory that me and Chez are scumbuddies, and how my play makes no sense from a mafia perspective. Don't think you pondered that one. If I'm with Chez, I do: a) hard defend him and really try to convince town to go somewhere else b) bus him and try to gain credit. I did neither. I just called it a policy lynch and kinda went with it. If I know he's gonna flip mafia why do I do that? SAME QUESTION TO YOU ABOUT ME FRIENDO | ||
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On December 18 2023 07:56 Palmar wrote: Wait so if I'm town what does that make dmb? If I'm scum, what does that make dmb? If you are mafia dmb is flat out mafia, if you are town dmb MIGHT be mafia but needs further looking into and probing. | ||
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On December 18 2023 07:57 Holyflare wrote: Do you even know why chez got lynched? | ||
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Nobody read a thing I said about palmar apparently. Important to note he said he would have got credit or defended Chezinu if he was partners with him but I don't think he was around at the time so basically invented a scenario to town read himself. | ||
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On December 18 2023 09:19 raynpelikoneet wrote: Like if DMB is mafia shes only mafia with HF, its outright idiotic to have a stance where youre not voting for another unknown player over yourself if it comesto that. As mafia i mean, i think i have only seen rsoultin do that and that caught 2 mafia. Think I agree with this | ||
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Don't particularly want to do this but I assume it's the amenable middle ground where I can actually play another cycle and roast these jub jubs for this wagon even starting in the first place. | ||
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On December 24 2023 22:08 Vivax wrote: I have no idea what you are talking about but I know that if you don't become antisocial at least tendentially in this society, you are not unlikely to be part of the problem and this game is a good example of that. How to prove democracy sucks in one game. Doesn't matter how much you stroke each other's egos if the outcome is that you gang up on minorities when it suits you. Peak hypocrisy. Sorry that I don't like to pretend to be nice to everyone and in a good mood constantly. Scandalous that I don't like to be forced to lie. Probably don't wait until aftet everyone has gone to bed to start playing like not a maniac next time. | ||
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On December 24 2023 23:26 Vivax wrote: It’s true though. He could have changed the deadline outcome. Mafia is how I learned never to attempt to help others. In the future I’ll just be right in the corner with the other antisocial whales that’s the lesson I have been taught last year. Maybe when gangstalkers try to drive you to suicide you will understand. Your deadline outcome? How? | ||
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