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On March 04 2019 22:15 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 22:11 Palmar wrote:
I'm also interested in people who do not want to lynch Conversion and why. Well he's gone quiet recently which is a bit interesting but in that early exchange MZ came across much more scumlike to me. He was poking but in a weird way and conversion reacted defending himself. What are you actually saying here?
Are you going to take your vote off oats?
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United Kingdom9212 Posts
On March 04 2019 22:17 Mocsta wrote:
hmmm. Im not keen on my unvote. I didnt have a problem with oats, and hes now 2nd wagon.
acro - you were iffy on trfel. you still prefer oats > trfel?
I don't have a read on trfel. I can probably be convinced to switch if there's a good reason. I really don't like the idea of lynching acrofales.
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Vivax doesnt like Tfrel it seems. If there is merit to it I shall clear Vivax as well. Vivax is fun to have around anyway. Not very useful though. Most of the times.
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United Kingdom9212 Posts
On March 04 2019 22:22 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 22:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 04 2019 22:11 Palmar wrote:
I'm also interested in people who do not want to lynch Conversion and why. Well he's gone quiet recently which is a bit interesting but in that early exchange MZ came across much more scumlike to me. He was poking but in a weird way and conversion reacted defending himself. What are you actually saying here? Are you going to take your vote off oats?
I'm just answering the question directly as to why i don't want to lynch conversion.
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On March 04 2019 22:23 Koshi wrote:
Vivax doesnt like Tfrel it seems. If there is merit to it I shall clear Vivax as well. Vivax is fun to have around anyway. Not very useful though. Most of the times.
Basically it comes down to him lazily agreeing with tina without discovering that bit about TS thinking she was mentioning him instead of SL.
Seemed to me like he lacked suspicion both towards Tina and TS, and also interest towards reading a single post.
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Tfrel is potential mafia. Cant make 2 posts about the same pzrson in a row. Feels like mafia trying to talk about something over town digging into something.
This also means Vivax is cool beans.
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And if it rhymes it is true.
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On March 04 2019 20:31 Palmar wrote:I don't like Conversion's filter. I especially hate this post: Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 08:13 Conversion wrote:
I’m back sort of. I have interviews all week so wont play much today.
did MZ ever explain his reasoning on why he put Oats low on his scum list for scumreading me, the same as him, but excluded me from his to lynch list? also why he agreed with Oats making a large post of bullshit voted and saying “not town?”
if not I’d like to lynch him We all know he could've checked the answer in like 3 mouse clicks. He's not posting because he wants to know whether this happened. He's posting because he's very gently asking other people to allow him to have the position that he's considering having. It's a really, really scummy post. hmmm took me a few reads to understand this, and yes I get it now. If the read is strong, he would check it himself an ask for "have the position" as eloquently said. If the read is weak, he should sheep,which he does not allude to in the slightest.
Even considering he is busy this is very lazy for town play.
Good pick up and Im happy to vote
##Vote:;Conversion
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The case against Oatsmaster
Exhibit A: the lack of effort
Firstly, he has been utterly useless and all over the place with his reads. Without any justification he just randomly threw out names of 11 people in a "look at me, I'm playing the game" fashion in the span of about 10 minutes.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 03 2019 05:52 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2019 04:31 Alakaslam wrote:
##Mayor: HolyFlare
##Vote: Raynpelikoneet all not town On March 03 2019 05:55 Oatsmaster wrote:not town On March 03 2019 05:56 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2019 16:17 Acrofales wrote:
I just started reading and 3 pages in stopped again. From this point onwards, I will be operating on a lynch all liars policy, because holy shit, mafia claims are the dumbest things I have ever seen. So yeah. Claim mafia beyond this point and I'll assume it's the truth. I also refuse to read anything else up to here, unless someone specifically points me somewhere in the first 23 pages worth reading.
Now can we keep the postcount reasonable? This isn't a mini, and I'm going sailing all weekend and have a deadline on Monday.
Thanks.
Acrofales, the townie. 10/10 mafIA On March 03 2019 05:57 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2019 20:33 Holyflare wrote:
If anyone cares my reads align with rsoul. I think. Chez suspicious. Guy posting catch ups was it trfel? Seemed mediocre and not any revelations. Iamp piggybacking me suspicious. Don't care if I like what he's said about people non-posting. That's easy to do.
Didn't like rayn that much tbh. He seems to not be saying much but talking in walls of text and circles.
I dunno I'm sorry I'm a bit shit right now but whatever. MAFIA lifes tough hf On March 03 2019 06:00 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2019 05:15 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
I'd like to survive long enough to figure out my role so I'm going to disagree with the Sentinel Policy Lynch 3rd part=y
When asked to back it up, he didn't really do that, confused himself about why he had called people scum in the voting thread and just really couldn't justify calling anybody scum at all other than this:
On March 03 2019 06:16 Oatsmaster wrote:
mocsta posted one post and peaced ~~ possibly town,
iamp is putting in way too much effort to be town
tictock is reaching real far for their reads
Acro actually is a lawyer and lawyers should be lynched cause they are bad men
HF too serious to be town
Ace actually posted the worst idea ive ever seen what was that nonsense
Everthing there is nonsense. They are literally made up reasons. He's not putting any effort into the game.
Exhibit B: the flailing
This entire post is terrible:
On March 03 2019 08:38 Oatsmaster wrote:Also hf, so either you are town and you play serious so my read is wrong. Or you are town and you dont play serious so my read is right in the sense that if you were serious you are mafia. But just that my judgement of your posts is wrong. It cant be both at the same time like you are trying to portray it here. Show nested quote +It's your read that I'm too serious but over 50% of my filter at that point was not serious. Those posts you've quoted are also just reads.
In what previous game of mine have I not given reads and instead have just done this amazing nothingness and fun you're trying to portray me as doing as town? So the green part is that you are saying that you arent playing seriously this game in your opinion. The bolded green part is that you are saying that you do play serious as town. SOOOOOO ARE YOU TOWN THIS GAME HF??
He started off thinking HF was scum for "putting in too much effort"? Now is trying to back out while trying to rationalize how and why he is not convinced of his case, but it doesn't look sincere. Doesn't pass the smell test, and feels like he is just trying to get off HF's radar. Especially as he just drops HF entirely the moment HF drops him. If this is some big "logical inconsistency" that got him all riled up about HF's play, then why is he not following up? HF kept posting and playing in a similar manner, yet Oats never mentioned him again. What changed? Nothing in particular, except that HF went from thinking Oats was scum to voting alongside him:
On March 03 2019 18:56 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2019 18:47 Tubesock wrote:On March 03 2019 18:35 Holyflare wrote:On March 03 2019 18:30 Tubesock wrote:On March 02 2019 20:33 Holyflare wrote:
If anyone cares my reads align with rsoul. I think. Chez suspicious. Guy posting catch ups was it trfel? Seemed mediocre and not any revelations. Iamp piggybacking me suspicious. Don't care if I like what he's said about people non-posting. That's easy to do.
Didn't like rayn that much tbh. He seems to not be saying much but talking in walls of text and circles.
I dunno I'm sorry I'm a bit shit right now but whatever. On March 03 2019 04:20 Holyflare wrote:
Don't really get any of the rayn town reads. He's a complete non entity. Not really a case but you did scumread him. Wouldn't say that's a scum read. If anything it's the scummy side of null and was more an extrapolation of everyone else's mindsets on rayn than a read on him. I just didn't agree with people town reading rayn and didn't understand how they reached that conclusion when he's mediocre af. Ok. If Oats didn’t hilariously get your filter incorrect, or at least say all your posts were serious, would you think he’s any different than his normal grouchy mcgroucherson town self? To me his entrance where every single person in the game is scum is normal town for him. Last I saw him as scum (years ago I know) he threw out maybe 4 scumreads and was a little less abrasive. Much less wave making than this game. I don't think he's any different from his scum or town game that I remember. It seems to be a scum team strat to push me though because I don't think I've done anything underhanded or misguided this entire game. Just been honest and forthcoming yet have two people with somehow overwhelmingly strong scum reads on me. Seems majorly fabricated. Oats had x amount of scum reads based on people that voted other people for mayor (which I didn't!) yet have you heard anything in depth about anyone other than me?
On March 04 2019 06:54 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 06:17 Acrofales wrote:
I'm here and caught up. There's a few posts in specific that I want to respond to, but in general:
1. Iamp is an idiot. He makes a case on me every game and it's always really bad. I will respond in more detail when I get to it, but his whole case is dumb. For starters, neither sicklucker nor oats are lurkers. Moreover, I quite obviously excluded the real lurkers. I want to kill the people who are popping into the thread, not contributing and fucking off. Not the people who weren't here at all. Iamp wanting to lynch me for dumb shit isn't new, and he's always wrong. He eats out of my hand when I'm scum and wants to lynch me when I'm town. And this is all I remember about him from 5 years ago. It's always fun. I'll decide later whether this was a scummy push, though. He hasn't done much of use other than his "case" on me, whcih he started before I had even gotten into this thread proper. Anyway, I don't think he is a good lynch target for D1. He usually starts to see the light eventually when he's town, and if he isn't, we can kill him tomorrow. Better stuff to do today.
2. No longer want to kill Sent. But the reason Palmar gets the votes is because he was clear and concise about his aims, whereas HF had many different goals. Now that sent claims he read his PM, and has actually started playing a bit, I don't think he's a good kill anymore. @Palmar: do you still plan on murdering sent?
3. I'm still quite happy with Palmar for mayor, his posts have been townie enough for me and I trust him to find scum a lot more than I do HF.
4. Lets lynch Oats. I'm on board with damdred, but he promised to contribute in 10 mins, so I'll give him until then. Oats has given no sign he has read the thread beyond looking for stuff to troll and throw out random names. Grackaroni has managed to look a bt more townie in his posts today. He pulled himself together and he is totally buddying me and I'm falling for it. Deal with it. 3. I trust Palmer to find mafia a lot more than Holyflare. 4. Let's lynch the wagon Holyflare started. Ok Acro. Have my vote.
So HF is off his back and voting for me, so not worth the effort anymore. In fact, he doesn't even appear to notice HF is now voting alongside him.
Because one of the advantages of flinging "reads" everywhere is one of them is bound to stick. And that one was me. Why does Oats think I'm scum? I still don't really know. I'm not a lawyer. That's for damn sure.
All I got from him is a bunch of post-hoc rationalization about why some of the stuff other people (Palmar, Grack) said look townie are not townie. But he has not once made sense of why I'm scum. It's almost like all his reads are just picked at random and he'll run with whatever works.
He's not even trying to understand what's happening. Just trying to spin:
On March 04 2019 12:32 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 07:14 Acrofales wrote:On March 04 2019 07:11 Holyflare wrote:On March 04 2019 06:35 Acrofales wrote:On March 03 2019 18:23 Tubesock wrote:Why isn’t Palmar, Blazinghand, Rels, onegu, pandain, darthFoley, etc on this list too? Are these that much different than straight policy lynches? Yes, they are... you'll note that you weren't on there either. Although I'm not entirely sure anymore why not. Palmar isn't on there because I was (and am) voting for him for mayor. So no, I don't think he's scum BH falls in the Koshi, Mocsta, Pandain, Rels, Onegu list of people who hadn't posted at all, and thus I couldn't make my mind up either way. DarthFoley doesn't seem too scummy and had been posting. Sentinel was the only guy there who was mostly policy, and only partially because he was doing nothing of value. The rest were all there because I read their filter and found nothing much to believe they're town: Oats posted a craptastic bunch of "reads" and then went away again without adding anything to the thread except for a bunch of troll posts. Lets get this show on the road. Kill Oats for justiceFF wants to be mayor, but a town FF would know he stands no chance with HF, Palmar, Cobbler, Ace, rayn, BH and iamp. Yet that is literally the only thing he has posted about all thread. Other than that he's thrown some shade around without any conviction. WoS, ExO_. Entered, trolled, fucked off. Basically did nothing beyond phone in their presence, promise better and fuck off. sicklucker: I'll call him "Oats light". Wiggles: don't really want to lynch him anymore, but he was there in the WoS, ExO_ list. Other people aren't on there because I think they're probably town or there simply isn't enough information to figure it out yet. On March 04 2019 06:17 Acrofales wrote:
I'm here and caught up. There's a few posts in specific that I want to respond to, but in general:
1. Iamp is an idiot. He makes a case on me every game and it's always really bad. I will respond in more detail when I get to it, but his whole case is dumb. For starters, neither sicklucker nor oats are lurkers. Moreover, I quite obviously excluded the real lurkers. I want to kill the people who are popping into the thread, not contributing and fucking off. Not the people who weren't here at all. Iamp wanting to lynch me for dumb shit isn't new, and he's always wrong. He eats out of my hand when I'm scum and wants to lynch me when I'm town. And this is all I remember about him from 5 years ago. It's always fun. I'll decide later whether this was a scummy push, though. He hasn't done much of use other than his "case" on me, whcih he started before I had even gotten into this thread proper. Anyway, I don't think he is a good lynch target for D1. He usually starts to see the light eventually when he's town, and if he isn't, we can kill him tomorrow. Better stuff to do today.
2. No longer want to kill Sent. But the reason Palmar gets the votes is because he was clear and concise about his aims, whereas HF had many different goals. Now that sent claims he read his PM, and has actually started playing a bit, I don't think he's a good kill anymore. @Palmar: do you still plan on murdering sent?
3. I'm still quite happy with Palmar for mayor, his posts have been townie enough for me and I trust him to find scum a lot more than I do HF.
4. Lets lynch Oats. I'm on board with damdred, but he promised to contribute in 10 mins, so I'll give him until then. Oats has given no sign he has read the thread beyond looking for stuff to troll and throw out random names. Grackaroni has managed to look a bt more townie in his posts today. He pulled himself together and he is totally buddying me and I'm falling for it. Deal with it. On March 04 2019 06:39 Acrofales wrote:On March 04 2019 06:19 rsoultin wrote:
Eew.
Acro: "Palmar wanting to lynch sent is more likely to find scum than HF who wants to lynch Oats who I want to lynch."
rofl >< Given that I want to lynch Oats, I don't want to vote HF to mayor kill him. It defeats the purpose. On March 04 2019 06:52 Acrofales wrote:
EBWOP: also, HF's case on Oats was based on some nonsense that made no sense. Not on the reasons that Oats is actually scummy (although it did start that way). It was about Oats changing his mind when Oats never changed his mind (just threw out an unsubstantiated read and never commented on it again). On March 03 2019 06:25 Holyflare wrote:On March 03 2019 06:21 Oatsmaster wrote:On March 03 2019 06:20 Holyflare wrote:
Only oatmaster could simultaneously call the guy I scum read mafia and then think that I'm mafia in the space of a post. Funny guy. only hf can assume theres one mafia team in a game with 30 players No, it just makes it obvious you haven't read the thread carefully enough to piece together coherent reads and are just throwing whatever you can in the open in the hopes something sticks. Pretty scummy oats tactic. On March 03 2019 06:44 Holyflare wrote:
No, it's that. That's quite a common oats mafia play. Throw darts blindfolded and be controversial and hope something sticks. On March 03 2019 18:56 Holyflare wrote:On March 03 2019 18:47 Tubesock wrote:On March 03 2019 18:35 Holyflare wrote:On March 03 2019 18:30 Tubesock wrote:On March 02 2019 20:33 Holyflare wrote:
If anyone cares my reads align with rsoul. I think. Chez suspicious. Guy posting catch ups was it trfel? Seemed mediocre and not any revelations. Iamp piggybacking me suspicious. Don't care if I like what he's said about people non-posting. That's easy to do.
Didn't like rayn that much tbh. He seems to not be saying much but talking in walls of text and circles.
I dunno I'm sorry I'm a bit shit right now but whatever. On March 03 2019 04:20 Holyflare wrote:
Don't really get any of the rayn town reads. He's a complete non entity. Not really a case but you did scumread him. Wouldn't say that's a scum read. If anything it's the scummy side of null and was more an extrapolation of everyone else's mindsets on rayn than a read on him. I just didn't agree with people town reading rayn and didn't understand how they reached that conclusion when he's mediocre af. Ok. If Oats didn’t hilariously get your filter incorrect, or at least say all your posts were serious, would you think he’s any different than his normal grouchy mcgroucherson town self? To me his entrance where every single person in the game is scum is normal town for him. Last I saw him as scum (years ago I know) he threw out maybe 4 scumreads and was a little less abrasive. Much less wave making than this game. I don't think he's any different from his scum or town game that I remember. It seems to be a scum team strat to push me though because I don't think I've done anything underhanded or misguided this entire game. Just been honest and forthcoming yet have two people with somehow overwhelmingly strong scum reads on me. Seems majorly fabricated. Oats had x amount of scum reads based on people that voted other people for mayor (which I didn't!) yet have you heard anything in depth about anyone other than me? To me, Acro, it looks like you're really not paying attention at all. You should be happy that you have exactly the same points as I've already stated and should be happy to vote me as mayor. Instead you're not even interested in someone who shares the exact same read as you. You didn't even know the reasons I actually voted oats and you voted on the wagon scum found it opportune to be on. Not looking good for you I'm afraid. Really, not paying attention? In a 65 page day 1 i was mostly afk for? You're obviously right there. nice boiling down his points into a singular answer that actually confirms what hes saying Acro
Indeed. I was agreeing with him. I wasn't paying close attention. Yet somehow me agreeing with HF about my own playstyle is bad. Scummy? I dunno. But definitely worth throwing shade at in a drive-by sniping.
Oats just doesn't engage. He takes potshots as if they are gotchas, because his mind is already made up: as long as a townie gets lynched it's a great D1. And right now, I'm the most likely to be lynched, so non-committal snipes on me is the way to go.
There isn't much more in his filter. He enters the conversation and leaves before getting anything done. Asks pointless questions, and generally just floats around the surface looking "busy" without putting any effort at all into the game. Most notably not into his mafia cases against HF or me (the only two he has followed up on beyond a list post).
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On March 04 2019 22:23 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 22:22 Mocsta wrote:On March 04 2019 22:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 04 2019 22:11 Palmar wrote:
I'm also interested in people who do not want to lynch Conversion and why. Well he's gone quiet recently which is a bit interesting but in that early exchange MZ came across much more scumlike to me. He was poking but in a weird way and conversion reacted defending himself. What are you actually saying here? Are you going to take your vote off oats? I'm just answering the question directly as to why i don't want to lynch conversion. sorry i misread your response to palmar. I thought you were saying in the exchange with mz, that CONVERSION came across more scumlike.
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On March 04 2019 22:15 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 22:11 Palmar wrote:
I'm also interested in people who do not want to lynch Conversion and why. Well he's gone quiet recently which is a bit interesting but in that early exchange MZ came across much more scumlike to me. He was poking but in a weird way and conversion reacted defending himself.
Okay but did you read my point, how he's asking a question that can be figured out in 3 mouse clicks and basing his game on that?
Vivax put it nicely.
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On March 04 2019 22:11 Palmar wrote:
I'm also interested in people who do not want to lynch Conversion and why.
Two reasons:
I don't think a scumversion would be bold enough to come into the thread and be the second guy to claim mafia. But I don't really know him and I did find it a shitty entrance to the thread. But useless townies being bad is not scum. It just seems too brazen for scum. I don't know conversion and maybe he does play this kind of game as scum where he drops in and claims scum, but it seems like he is drawing attention for no reason except to be an idiot. Which is, unfortunately, far more likely for town.
Being excessively lazy just seems to be his thing:
On March 03 2019 23:52 Conversion wrote:
someone xplain to me where mayors get a vig lynch basically? can’t find the info
Regardless of town or scum, this is just being lazy. It is 2 clicks to open the OP and click on "Day 1" (okay, 3, because it's spoilered), where you can read all about the mayor election. Instead, he wants someone else to do it for him. That makes the post you tripped over far less telling. He's just being lazy, again.
He is completely useless and might be scum. But I don't think he's a good lynch today.
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@Acrofoles.
Havent read why Oatsmaster is mafia in your case. Just that you dont understand and dislikes his playstyle.
I read Oatsmaster his filter.
My conclusion:
Not a townread, but too aggressive and confrontational to be a mafia read and d1 lynch.
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On March 04 2019 22:46 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 22:11 Palmar wrote:
I'm also interested in people who do not want to lynch Conversion and why. Two reasons: I don't think a scumversion would be bold enough to come into the thread and be the second guy to claim mafia. But I don't really know him and I did find it a shitty entrance to the thread. But useless townies being bad is not scum. It just seems too brazen for scum. I don't know conversion and maybe he does play this kind of game as scum where he drops in and claims scum, but it seems like he is drawing attention for no reason except to be an idiot. Which is, unfortunately, far more likely for town. Being excessively lazy just seems to be his thing: Show nested quote +On March 03 2019 23:52 Conversion wrote:
someone xplain to me where mayors get a vig lynch basically? can’t find the info Regardless of town or scum, this is just being lazy. It is 2 clicks to open the OP and click on "Day 1" (okay, 3, because it's spoilered), where you can read all about the mayor election. Instead, he wants someone else to do it for him. That makes the post you tripped over far less telling. He's just being lazy, again. He is completely useless and might be scum. But I don't think he's a good lynch today.
To be fair, I didn't find the Day 1 link until a little bit ago, I've been filtering Kita to get to the day 1 post.
Your first point is just wifom. Experience tells us that randomly claiming mafia on TL is perfectly safe play for either side so there's no downside in doing it as mafia.
And one would think he's much more invested (and thus motivated to actually do something) about his own scumread than some random rules stuff.
I guess it's perfectly possible he's just a super lazy useless town, but in that case, why post the MZ post in the first place? Just choose to do nothing or vote him randomly. Why bother with the conditional "if x then I'll vote"?
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I read Conversion hisfilter. Conversion could be mafia for not doing anything townie and making posts I dont understand why a townie makes them.
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Can somebody explain the 7 mafia thing please? Who said it first and what is thread consensus around that.
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Also react to my posts you fuckers.
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On March 04 2019 22:46 Koshi wrote:
@Acrofoles.
Havent read why Oatsmaster is mafia in your case. Just that you dont understand and dislikes his playstyle.
I read Oatsmaster his filter.
My conclusion:
Not a townread, but too aggressive and confrontational to be a mafia read and d1 lynch.
Oats early filter is super bad because it's just aggressiveness with no actual goal behind it, but this roughly mirrors my feeling when I skimmed his filter yesterday.
Oats just needs to calm the fuck down a bit and play slower but more focused, but it's Oats so who knows.
He could very well be mafia but I think we have better shots (like Conversion or Sentinel)
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United Kingdom9212 Posts
On March 04 2019 22:45 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 22:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 04 2019 22:11 Palmar wrote:
I'm also interested in people who do not want to lynch Conversion and why. Well he's gone quiet recently which is a bit interesting but in that early exchange MZ came across much more scumlike to me. He was poking but in a weird way and conversion reacted defending himself. Okay but did you read my point, how he's asking a question that can be figured out in 3 mouse clicks and basing his game on that? Vivax put it nicely.
Both yours and vivax's points make sense i gotta say.
Thing is, I can't see two mafia guys getting into it so early and my case against MZ:
https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=27275336
https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=27277691
is stronger than the case here against conversion.
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On March 04 2019 22:53 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 22:45 Palmar wrote:On March 04 2019 22:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 04 2019 22:11 Palmar wrote:
I'm also interested in people who do not want to lynch Conversion and why. Well he's gone quiet recently which is a bit interesting but in that early exchange MZ came across much more scumlike to me. He was poking but in a weird way and conversion reacted defending himself. Okay but did you read my point, how he's asking a question that can be figured out in 3 mouse clicks and basing his game on that? Vivax put it nicely. Both yours and vivax's points make sense i gotta say. Thing is, I can't see two mafia guys getting into it so early and my case against MZ: https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=27275336https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=27277691is stronger than the case here against conversion.
Mafia argues with mafia all the time.
I'll read your case.
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EPT
