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On January 27 2018 05:33 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2018 05:18 mderg wrote:On January 27 2018 05:12 Holyflare wrote:On January 27 2018 04:43 Rels wrote:On January 27 2018 04:39 Holyflare wrote:On January 27 2018 04:26 justanothertownie wrote:On January 27 2018 04:20 Holyflare wrote:On January 27 2018 03:17 Rels wrote:On January 27 2018 03:14 beentheredonethat wrote:
whoa Rels calm your tits, keep the caps to yourself and don't spam question marks If that makes you feel better, I was much more angry before, then I edited these posts before posting so that my point is crystal clear. I think the problem is that you ignored the first D3 post of Kmatt, in which: - he talks about a GF - he scumread you So that makes your whole theory fall apart. Which adds to the whole world theory that kmatt is mafia because he can't even be consistent with his reads through one cycle. It is entirely consistent. Not really. He says that btdt is sketchy but then lists out "potential remaining town" and says mocsta is also sketchy but then says that he'll let him pass because of the cop check. It's just choosing names and seeing what sticks. Why does he not let btdt slide for being rbd AND cop checked? Now that the cop is dead he didn't revisit any of those reads. In fact he didn't even mention them again because he is jumping on the opportunity to follow sentiment and go for me. 'cause he scumread BTDT previously + he had this theory on how he would fakeclaim a roleblock if he was scum. They're not great posts but they're not scummy. No. He also scum reads mocsta. It's literally in his posts. "Mocsta has posted a lot of empty words and doesn't seem towny but the cop check so he's town". It's totally arbitrary giving of alignments. Either way now that the cop isn't a cop and is dead both of them should be his scum reads totally. If he truly scum read btdt (and mocsta) why isn't he reinvigorated after this? Instead he jumps on my post where I ask him for reads in the most weird way possible. On January 26 2018 09:55 Kmatt wrote:No I just can't buy this. On January 26 2018 09:20 Holyflare wrote:
because if you're not mafia like rels is implying then you'll be next after I die and it would be good to get your reads out in the open you know? I hate hate hate this post. How on Earth does Town!Holyflare back off now of all times? I don't pretend to have memorized meta, but I just can't accept anything but a full game-ending crusade against me at this point. I'll be the first to admit that my game so far is abysmal. I can't play town for shite to begin with, and this is a particularly foul example. You have every reason to doubt me. And you did! Repeatedly! There was a wall of text a few pages back. Town!Holyflare has this game served to him on a silver platter. The only thing that happened between then and now is a red flip that you predicted when I defended him to the end. Suddenly Rels calls the banners and now you doubt my scumminess. I could almost see you going full OMGUS and turning on Rels, but you just alluded to him being town too. The only reason someone could reasonably townread me at this point is PoE (which requires a stronger scumread than me, which you didn't have an hour ago) or pure gut. Read this. Absorb it. How on earth does this game make sense in that way? If he is town why has town Holyflare got this game served up on a silver platter? This is backwards thinking in totality. He has gone: "Holyflare scum reads me. Lynching me as town would be bad. Oh he's backing off and asking for my reads now. Wtf that's so scummy, he could have won if he just lynched me???" I'd argue that scum puts a lot more effort into making sure their reasoning looks consistent than town That's a really weak argument. I expect someone that struggles to post reads to struggle to post a concrete foundation for why they scum read somebody when they have to fabricate it which is how you come up with the above. He's mafia and is using backwards logic to try and justify it.
Inconsistent reasoning does not mean mafia. It also doesn't mean town but I can very well imagine a townie who isn't 100% in the game coming up with inconsistent reasoning like that.
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On January 27 2018 08:07 Holyflare wrote:Your reason to town read mocsta/kmatt is really, really quite weak. Either way you guys shouldn't listen to the above at all. Your mderg town read is also quite bad because things like: Show nested quote +
Everything df said (except the townread on Rels imo) kind of makes sense. But I had pretty much no idea what he said before going through his filter. So his play feels a bit off despite making logically sound arguments.
give me such major scummy vibes that it's unreal. Everything df said was fine but he had no idea what he said beforehand therefore he's scummy? That's a fucking ODD read to have.
His town read on me is pretty good since I'm town
I feel like you're misrepresenting what I've said about df. What I've said should imply that df was trying not to stand out with what he says, which most people would agree is somewhat scummy.
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On January 27 2018 08:30 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2018 08:28 mderg wrote:On January 27 2018 08:07 Holyflare wrote:Your reason to town read mocsta/kmatt is really, really quite weak. Either way you guys shouldn't listen to the above at all. Your mderg town read is also quite bad because things like:
Everything df said (except the townread on Rels imo) kind of makes sense. But I had pretty much no idea what he said before going through his filter. So his play feels a bit off despite making logically sound arguments.
give me such major scummy vibes that it's unreal. Everything df said was fine but he had no idea what he said beforehand therefore he's scummy? That's a fucking ODD read to have. His town read on me is pretty good since I'm town I feel like you're misrepresenting what I've said about df. What I've said should imply that df was trying not to stand out with what he says, which most people would agree is somewhat scummy. Perhaps read the bit underneath where I read the context of the actual quote and determine that it's not actually a bad point but you don't equate it to being scummy either so that's kind of stretching the truth. I agree that it made him "meh" and that's that. Nothing more to it.
If I say his play feels off, it means he's scummy
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Note to self: Don't leave any room for interpretation in the future
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Voting hf for now, kmatt should step up, if he doesn't want that to change.
I guess it's time to reread the thread and revisit my reads with the assumption that hf is town.
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I can totally see Mocsta being scum, maybe even more than kmatt
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I always like to read arguments that have been blown out of proprtion on the internet.
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On January 28 2018 08:05 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 03:12 Damerion wrote:
I think BTDT could be scum, there might be a reason to check into him a bit more. DarthFoley could of been distancing himself slightly or just trying to save himself when he voted but doubtful when I think Damdred was the lynch and not many were interested in switching. So perhaps i'll check into him tonight. As for kmatts forced 5D chesboard joke, I think the key to the BTDT RB being genuine or planned comes down to this "check" going to re-read darthfoley case on btdt from day1
I don't quite understand what the RB has to do with that "check"
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On January 28 2018 08:34 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2018 08:11 mderg wrote:On January 28 2018 08:05 Mocsta wrote:On January 24 2018 03:12 Damerion wrote:
I think BTDT could be scum, there might be a reason to check into him a bit more. DarthFoley could of been distancing himself slightly or just trying to save himself when he voted but doubtful when I think Damdred was the lynch and not many were interested in switching. So perhaps i'll check into him tonight. As for kmatts forced 5D chesboard joke, I think the key to the BTDT RB being genuine or planned comes down to this "check" going to re-read darthfoley case on btdt from day1 I don't quite understand what the RB has to do with that "check" why check btdt in the first place. if town and RB, knew he would be green so its "early" information if scum and faking RB, knew it would support the cop check even once hes lynched as RB remember, the RB claim came after the cop check Damerion filter seems very constructed and methodical, so its whether the bTDT check lines up with the uncertainty he was trying to express in the thread. kids woken up, so will look into this later. ciao.
I still have no idea where you're actually going with this
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To me it sounds like you care quite a bit about being lynched
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On January 28 2018 13:12 Holyflare wrote:
@mderg: I don't know why you hate me but I'd also like a day by day breakdown of your reads on day 1/2 and during the cop claim. If you can't be fucked I'd like your reads before the cop claim and after it but before Damerion died please. Short sentence on each. Also, when I flip town which wagon will you afk on next?
I don't really want to respond to this but here you go:
Day1
Town
Twat/jat: looked very investigative and open with his reasoning
Mocsta: Not quite sure why I felt that way
rsoultin: This should be pretty obvious
Damdred: Didn't think the defense against Damerions's case could be from scum
Kelsier: Looked pretty natural, had him as scum later on for kind of backtracking on pressuring but that was dumb
kmatt: no content
btdt: didn't see anything of note
prplhz: no content
df: looked like he didn't want to stand out with anything
Hf: looked uninvested, didn't like the push on damdred
Rels: jumped on the damdred wagon and fucked off
Damerion: Damdred case was 100% meta not well applied, insanely tunneled
scum
________________________________________________________________________________________________
Day2
Town
Mocsta: Couldn't really see him and df together based on their interactions
rsoultin: obvious town
btdt: df's vote would have been pretty risky
kmatt: no content
prplhz: little content, not voting with rsoultin was strange but I had no idea, if there was some legit backstory for not voting df
Twat/jat: Looked townie at first, then disappeared after some townreads on him
Rels: looked more invested after day1
Hf: Like before but with Kelsier nk wifom
Damerion: Didn't change from day1, not much else to offer after damdred case
scum
________________________________________________________________________________________________
Before cop claim
Town
btdt: same as before
Mocsta: same as before
Rels: looked more and more invested, also voted damerion
jat: did not read any of his posts before the cop claim
kmatt: almost no content
Hf: not changed much, softing blue read and I absolutely hate this, "I'm confirmed town for whatever shitty wifom reason"
Damerion: nothing changed to before
scum
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After cop claim
Town
btdt: almost confirmed town because of rb claims
Mocsta: same as before
Rels: same as before
jat: made sure that Damerion gets lynched despite no counterclaim being made
kmatt: lack of content, reads look a bit inconsistent
Hf: pushing mafia agenda all game and all that shit
Damerion: no way believing his cop claim
scum
I'm not that townie on Mocsta anymore, looked like he jumped on any case that was presented to himand I don't remember him presenting any strong reads of his own.
Spent way too much time with this for way too little actual content.
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On January 29 2018 08:49 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2018 07:12 mderg wrote:
[Mocsta =>Removed dead people from list]
[b]Day1
Twat/jat: looked very investigative and open with his reasoning
Mocsta: Not quite sure why I felt that way
kmatt: no content
btdt: didn't see anything of note
Hf: looked uninvested, didn't like the push on damdred
Rels: jumped on the damdred wagon and fucked off
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
[b]Day2
Mocsta: Couldn't really see him and df together based on their interactions
btdt: df's vote would have been pretty risky
kmatt: no content
Twat/jat: Looked townie at first, then disappeared after some townreads on him
Rels: looked more invested after day1
Hf: Like before but with Kelsier nk wifom
________________________________________________________________________________________________
[b]Before cop claim
btdt: same as before
Mocsta: same as before
Rels: looked more and more invested, also voted damerion
jat: did not read any of his posts before the cop claim
kmatt: almost no content
Hf: not changed much, softing blue read and I absolutely hate this, "I'm confirmed town for whatever shitty wifom reason"
________________________________________________________________________________________________
[b]After cop claim
btdt: almost confirmed town because of rb claims
Mocsta: same as before
Rels: same as before
jat: made sure that Damerion gets lynched despite no counterclaim being made
kmatt: lack of content, reads look a bit inconsistent
Hf: pushing mafia agenda all game and all that shit
I'm not that townie on Mocsta anymore, looked like he jumped on any case that was presented to himand I don't remember him presenting any strong reads of his own. Hi mderg - Does your kmatt read take into account the HF case on p77? - Im not sure of your point in bold. Firstly, I dont agree with not presenting reads. If its not clear, this cycle my choice of lynch was and is kmatt. I merely have recognised that people need closure on HF to move forward. Silly if you ask me. Secondly, HF is espousing that I joined wagons for my own "hipster" reasons; and you are saying I am jumping on -> implying a "+1". Perhaps relevant, perhaps not: however I can say with all certainty that I have struggled to understand the condensation of thought many players have expressed this game. The best example is HF, where I have fleshed out multiple posts in more specificity -> thinking this has resulted in a different (and more logical) outcome; with HF response being "thats what I said". Lastly, what is a strong read. You yourself do not define any scum reads for the first 3 days? - Lastly, again with the bold. Rels should be just as culpable for jumping onto cases (by sheeping RSoultin with blatant +1) IIRC this is why he jumped off Damdred wagon. This is why he voted Damerion. Further, the more and more invested is simply a yelling match to HF. Im not sure why he and I are treated differently, yet, kmatt who is "lack of content' gets a free pass.
I did not say you weren't presenting any reads. I do not remember you having a scumread on anyone who didn't have a case on him already. If that's wrong, it's because I was too lazy to check your whole filter today when hf was always gonna be lynched.
I'm also pretty sure I did present scumreads for the first 3 days.
The impression I've got from Rels is different than the one from you. Partly because I'm biased as he had similar reads to me over the course of the game. Funnily enough I had Rels as scummy at the start of the game for similar reasons to you.
Also "but he did the same" is not always the most convinving argument.
And where does kmatt get a free pass? He has a decent chance of flipping scum based purely on poe. Can I say anything about his play besides providing very little information and reasoning of his reads? No.
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On January 29 2018 10:01 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2018 09:39 mderg wrote:On January 29 2018 08:49 Mocsta wrote:On January 29 2018 07:12 mderg wrote:
[Mocsta =>Removed dead people from list]
[b]Day1
Twat/jat: looked very investigative and open with his reasoning
Mocsta: Not quite sure why I felt that way
kmatt: no content
btdt: didn't see anything of note
Hf: looked uninvested, didn't like the push on damdred
Rels: jumped on the damdred wagon and fucked off
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
[b]Day2
Mocsta: Couldn't really see him and df together based on their interactions
btdt: df's vote would have been pretty risky
kmatt: no content
Twat/jat: Looked townie at first, then disappeared after some townreads on him
Rels: looked more invested after day1
Hf: Like before but with Kelsier nk wifom
________________________________________________________________________________________________
[b]Before cop claim
btdt: same as before
Mocsta: same as before
Rels: looked more and more invested, also voted damerion
jat: did not read any of his posts before the cop claim
kmatt: almost no content
Hf: not changed much, softing blue read and I absolutely hate this, "I'm confirmed town for whatever shitty wifom reason"
________________________________________________________________________________________________
After cop claim
btdt: almost confirmed town because of rb claims
Mocsta: same as before
Rels: same as before
jat: made sure that Damerion gets lynched despite no counterclaim being made
kmatt: lack of content, reads look a bit inconsistent
Hf: pushing mafia agenda all game and all that shit
I'm not that townie on Mocsta anymore, looked like he jumped on any case that was presented to himand I don't remember him presenting any strong reads of his own. Hi mderg - Does your kmatt read take into account the HF case on p77? - Im not sure of your point in bold. Firstly, I dont agree with not presenting reads. If its not clear, this cycle my choice of lynch was and is kmatt. I merely have recognised that people need closure on HF to move forward. Silly if you ask me. Secondly, HF is espousing that I joined wagons for my own "hipster" reasons; and you are saying I am jumping on -> implying a "+1". Perhaps relevant, perhaps not: however I can say with all certainty that I have struggled to understand the condensation of thought many players have expressed this game. The best example is HF, where I have fleshed out multiple posts in more specificity -> thinking this has resulted in a different (and more logical) outcome; with HF response being "thats what I said". Lastly, what is a strong read. You yourself do not define any scum reads for the first 3 days? - Lastly, again with the bold. Rels should be just as culpable for jumping onto cases (by sheeping RSoultin with blatant +1) IIRC this is why he jumped off Damdred wagon. This is why he voted Damerion. Further, the more and more invested is simply a yelling match to HF. Im not sure why he and I are treated differently, yet, kmatt who is "lack of content' gets a free pass. I did not say you weren't presenting any reads. I do not remember you having a scumread on anyone who didn't have a case on him already. If that's wrong, it's because I was too lazy to check your whole filter today when hf was always gonna be lynched. I'm also pretty sure I did present scumreads for the first 3 days. That is incorrect and also an unfair representation of this game. Being good town is about recognising a good case - whether generated by yourself or others. Lastly, it was your condensed list of reads in the original post that declared no scum reads throughout all day cycles. Show nested quote +The impression I've got from Rels is different than the one from you. Partly because I'm biased as he had similar reads to me over the course of the game. Funnily enough I had Rels as scummy at the start of the game for similar reasons to you.
Also "but he did the same" is not always the most convinving argument. Argument was not the intent. That was raised to extract further information. Show nested quote +And where does kmatt get a free pass? He has a decent chance of flipping scum based purely on poe. [b]Can I say anything about his play besides providing very little information and reasoning of his reads? No. Part in bold is congruent with list post. Part in red was not - at least to me.
Sheeping is a part of being a good townie but it did not look like you were carefully considering which cases were good. It's also unusual for town to only latch onto reads others made.
I think you read my post wrong, if you didn't find any scumreads.
kmatt doesn't look particularly townie, so that alone puts him in the scummy category. Lots of the points against kmatt could be explained by him just not being here for most of the game, thus not forming well reasoned reads.
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On January 29 2018 14:49 Mocsta wrote:After re-reading the game: I struggle to consider a world where JAT, Rels, mderg are not town. That leaves Kmatt & BTDT as the last two. I am certain that a Kmatt lynch will close this game out. Theres nothing more to add here, since Kmatt has done nothing more since.
The dark-horse if LYLO did arise is BTDT. Yes - It is likely he that he was RB'd (as town)
However, I refer to dark-horse as my world above is too strong; and without the RB, no one would think BTDT play is indicative of weak-town, let alone confirmed. Some food for thought if it gets there - Voted Day2, but didnt release RB information until fake-claim
- Actively scum read by town leaders early-phase (e.g. RSoultin)
- DF was forced to follow-through with BTDT, because RSoultin was pressuring him due to his alternative scum read on me. Note he goes into significantly more detail trying to convince the thread I am scum compared to his efforts with BTDT
- BTDT is a mafia-alignment award winner for sick bus plays
btdt hasn't been shitting town rainbows, that's definitely correct. Most of his town credit is down to the votes and his rb claim. I highly doubt mafia would plan the rb thing night1, so that would leave host error or mafia forgetting to rb night1 and then just rolling with it for night2. While I can imagine that happening, I don't want to think too much about it at this point in time.
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On January 29 2018 20:55 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2018 17:32 justanothertownie wrote:On January 29 2018 14:49 Mocsta wrote:After re-reading the game: I struggle to consider a world where JAT, Rels, mderg are not town. That leaves Kmatt & BTDT as the last two. I am certain that a Kmatt lynch will close this game out. Theres nothing more to add here, since Kmatt has done nothing more since.
The dark-horse if LYLO did arise is BTDT. Yes - It is likely he that he was RB'd (as town)
However, I refer to dark-horse as my world above is too strong; and without the RB, no one would think BTDT play is indicative of weak-town, let alone confirmed. Some food for thought if it gets there - Voted Day2, but didnt release RB information until fake-claim
- Actively scum read by town leaders early-phase (e.g. RSoultin)
- DF was forced to follow-through with BTDT, because RSoultin was pressuring him due to his alternative scum read on me. Note he goes into significantly more detail trying to convince the thread I am scum compared to his efforts with BTDT
- BTDT is a mafia-alignment award winner for sick bus plays
I would really love to hear those reasons to townread mderg and Rels that are stronger than the rb thing. Unfortunately, i dont have any time tonight to go into further detail. TLDR is that I went back to Day1 as this was the most natural day. All the other ones had events that are difficult to discern motive: e.g. prplhz lynch; cop-claim; predetermined lynch. Day1 has some really quirky/interesting interactions between DF/Damerion and remaining player group.mderg has been lone wolf all game; and I dont see how this play carries a team to victory. it relies on lots of luck. I stand by hipster townie. Rels I will try to flesh out more in the morning if i get time. One caveat is that I have yet to read former games whether either player has been mafia. mderg did say he can be top-tier scum so i am curious if knowledge of townies changes his playstyle dramatically instead of being a "wanderer" in this game. I agree BTDT is a non-issue unless LYLO presents; and I dont think its of benefit to discuss him further. I more raised that as item of note if it gets that far.
My top tier scum comment should not be taken too seriously. While I consider myself better scum than town the comment was more about rsoultin picking out by far my worst scum game. That could have led to an incorrect meta of me being a godawful scum player.
I've had one scum game where I did play some hipster scum playstyle similar to what this would be. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?user=mderg
I also used a fake rb claim to lead town astray in that game, similar to what btdt might be doing.
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Seems like things got a bit more interesting. Koshi with a pretty good first impression
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I guess I'll have to reread Mocsta and Rels over the course of the day but I'm lazy, so I will probably not manage to finish that today.
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I was pretty busy today but I'll be solving the game now
On January 31 2018 07:38 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 05:59 mderg wrote:On January 20 2018 05:47 darthfoley wrote:On January 20 2018 05:29 rsoultin wrote:On January 19 2018 11:55 Mocsta wrote:
[...]
============================
Priority #2: Other comments of interest
Holyflare
Im confused by HF - until he "couldnt fathom the mindset" of kelsier, I wasnt actually sure why damdred was voted.
On one hand, I feel that HF is constantly prodding people in a constructive manner;
On the other hand, whilst he has communicated why he voted damdred, its for reasoning I dont agree with (i.e.
focusing on behaviour rather than motive).
Am i wrong to expect more?
Darthfoley
Reads like he is observing the game and commenting for funsies.
I dont know how to explain it other than its feels like he is here, yet not actually in the moment?!?!
More investigating required.
mderg
I feel that mderg is trying to post just enough to not be forgotten.
Its interesting that the biggest attempt to persuade the thread revolves around shifting the focus from damdred to
damerion. "Using the fact that Damdred left the thread is like the weakest reason to push the read I can imagine."
Given I think the poke was fair game, i think this is hyperbole from mderg.
An interesting connection with potentially interesting timing nonetheless. How is any of this vague? If this a genuine opinion from you, I need you to explain it. Because right now it seems like you decided to keep calling him scum and hastily constructed an answer that you yourself can't support without making vague claims that I see no factual grounds for. Yes he gives a little nibble here or there of a conclusion but he leaves so much wiggle room for backing off. I don't know why this point is so hard for you to understand and why you disagree so vehemently. It looks like typical light shade throwing without much commitment. For example, "mderg used hyperbole" I think can be read either way. Town use hyperbole all the time but in different ways than mafia. I'm moving on from this because I've explained myself and if you still don't get it then I guess we just fundamentally disagree on the issue at hand. The wiggle room tuff would make me scum in 90% of my games, which makes me dislike that reasoning You didn't seem to wiggle much this game though ?
Probably because I want to change that a bit as similar reasons were often mentioned to scumread me in the past.
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On January 31 2018 07:59 Koshi wrote:
Well. If mderg is mafia he played well. If he is town he played even better.
Can't lynch the guy unless lylo. And even then...
Dnu who I would pick out of Mocsta and mderg.
legit hard choice.
Rels pocketing is much better than yours because it's way more subtle. Rereading his filter right now.
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I still don't like Rels' day1. Throwing around lots of suspicion, not following up with much substance. Pressure on df was kind of half-assed. Ended up hopping between the two town wagons. Would still lynch day1.
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EPT
