On September 24 2016 08:39 Calix wrote: I daresay that cutting short a potential avenue for conversation is counterproductive to your stated aim of getting reactions. Did you get anything from Jealous and I?
@Daneler, were you going anywhere with your entrance post? All you did was agree with Jealous and point out that Stutters' entrance is odd.
I use "odd" and "strange" for I find something that might warrant suspicion, so that's what I was going with. Admittedly, not a strong lead, but I was hoping it would go somewhere.
The best person to make things 'go somewhere' is yourself, dear. Expecting others to do the work is never going to work out and only demonstrates a lack of initiative.
Since you proposed this line of thought, why do you think scum would open a post by claiming "non-scum" over say, "town" or not claiming at all or what have you?
I see no reason for Town to claim anything. They only care about getting the Mafia lynched. Mafia, however, wants Town to think they're also Town. By saying "I'm not Mafia" or "I'm Town", they can attempt to establish it early on, which is why I find it to be something that warrants suspicion.
- I'll try to get into something beyond these gut reads tomorrow, hopefully when a few more people have posted. As is I'm pretty happy with tonight. 3/5 for my town pile and 2 I need to think about and watch. Gnight.
On September 24 2016 23:53 DanelerH wrote: I am not liking Lunaticman right now. First of all, basically all Lunatic has done is posted a random Town read. Let's take a look at it:
On September 24 2016 16:38 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 16:18 Skynx wrote: Hmm Lunatic intro worst i guess.
Man i dont get why get this PL discussion every game. Its quite simple, odds are town barely have any info D1 to decide on a proper lynch, hence guy with 2 posts dies. Sometimes scum slip, or someone has incredible meta read confidence or w/e, then you dont't pl. Simple stuff.
Somehow I knew you would say that. I hope we can stay on friendly terms this time around but I doubt it.
Stutters is so far the most obvious townie.
I am a bit afraid of the logical development of this game. TL is filled with smarties that loves to talk the talk but always lynch the random dude that didnt sound smart.
This will be the doom of us all I tell you, nobody can look more perfect then the mafia because they already know everything!
This looks like the current meta afk townies and leading mafia for sure. This totally reminds me if the palmar/hf domination game check it out.
Lunaticman just throws a random Town-read in the middle of a bunch of irrelevant information. Furthermore, xe doesn't give any reasoning for the Town-read. When asked about it, xe responded with this series of posts:
On September 24 2016 20:07 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 19:29 Rels wrote:
On September 24 2016 18:13 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 17:32 Calix wrote: Yo. I have a bit of time in the morning to pop in.
I actually don't mind the activity as much as I usually would because the posting isn't just a bunch of useless spam and it's much easier to catch up/ reread stuff.
On September 24 2016 11:46 SoulEaterQUEEN wrote:
On September 24 2016 08:04 Xatalos wrote: Unfortunately, looks like you can't vote for yourself in this setup :/
Interesting idea. What does this achieve? Last time I checked, voting for yourself is a lazy way of avoiding pressure, gives no info, doesn't get you reads. Unless you are schizo ^_^
Also hi there. I'm one of the newbs, this is my first on-site mafia, therefore I am not aware of the site meta. Also find it pointless to link off site meta examples personally. Too many players fall into the meta trap to conclude reads. Anyway this is shit fluff talking. Grill me, bake me, do whatever that makes you happy until my alignment cookie crumbles infront of you. I'll post my RVS vote, and call it a night.
Just to pop in with my two cents on this matter. Meta is good for establishing what is NAI for a player. (e.g., how often they vote or if they talk in a particular way) but I agree that a lot of people, myself included at times, use it as a substitute for analysis.
I'm not familiar with many people here (I've only really played with Skynx/ Superbia/ Jealous before) and I'd like to keep it that way so that my analysis isn't skewed by some subjective interpretations of how XYZ played in a game like, 486973 years ago. Only exception is if it's a bad player who has pronounced differences between their town/ scum game that means they make themselves obvious or some shit. So if we could keep the "X is scum/ town due to meta" talk down to a minimum then that'll be lovely.
As far as initial impressions go, I town-lean Jealous (this is mainly because we were posting similar things at approximately the same time when we were questioning Stutters so he's more likely to be coming from the same mindset as myself)
Ambivalent on Daneler. I didn't like his entrance because he was using someone else's words to put forth his opinion and then commented on something that looks odd but his follow-up made sense.
Stutters has done some questionable things with his claims to want to generate discussion. These two posts struck me as strange:
On September 24 2016 08:26 Stutters695 wrote:
On September 24 2016 08:21 Jealous wrote:
On September 24 2016 08:19 Stutters695 wrote: [quote]
To everyone else, this is why we should lynch him today. He's always one step ahead, we'll never catch him.
On a more serious note, how does everyone feel about going with the scummiest of the inevitable inactives? Activity always seems to be a struggle in these games and I won't be lynchbait for once.
I'm usually pro-PL but it's too early to make such a decision. We need to see how others are posting. It's odd that you suggest this so early.
This is how I get reactions (or saying something controversial then lurking and waiting for reactions, but you don't want that). Obviously I don't want to lynch a lurker though because I want to lynch Xata.
Here he says that he was reaction-testing. NAI by itself but the fact that he capitulated so quickly makes me skeptical. Scum are more likely to shy away from their actions in this manner compared to town (who would be more confident in their ability to defend themselves) because they don't want too much attention.
Stutters:
Calix: You only got two responses before claiming it was a reaction-test?
My dear Watson, the game is afoot. That does seem kind of counterproductive in retrospect. I think this is the part though where you guys debate if I'm terrible, trying to come off as terrible while scum or part of some master play.
Here he notes that people are likely to discuss his posts. Again, totally normal thing to say by itself, but what I don't like is the fact that he notes most of the possibilities before anyone can actually talk about him...since this limits opportunities for discussion...which goes against his stated aim of getting reactions and thus starting conversation.
It's not a legit contradiction or anything but I'd like Stutters to flesh out his reasoning here.
On September 24 2016 16:38 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 16:18 Skynx wrote: Hmm Lunatic intro worst i guess.
Man i dont get why get this PL discussion every game. Its quite simple, odds are town barely have any info D1 to decide on a proper lynch, hence guy with 2 posts dies. Sometimes scum slip, or someone has incredible meta read confidence or w/e, then you dont't pl. Simple stuff.
Somehow I knew you would say that. I hope we can stay on friendly terms this time around but I doubt it.
Stutters is so far the most obvious townie.
I am a bit afraid of the logical development of this game. TL is filled with smarties that loves to talk the talk but always lynch the random dude that didnt sound smart.
This will be the doom of us all I tell you, nobody can look more perfect then the mafia because they already know everything!
This looks like the current meta afk townies and leading mafia for sure. This totally reminds me if the palmar/hf domination game check it out.
What makes you think Stutters is the most townie player in the thread?
Are you claiming to be one of the dumb-sounding people?
Fourth part is just weird. It states the obvious ("mafia are informed and will try to look townie") but it does it in a hyperbolic manner. Where are you going here?
If you think mafia are leading the discussion then that implies that you suspect players and this is something you did not put down in favour of a town-read. Who could fall under this category of 'leading mafia' in your eyes, if anyone?
Stutters is obvious town for me at least, I can understand why you wouldn't notice but I have played with him 4 times in a row and I'm pretty sure he is town.
Please explain
Well I don't want to day 1 because of reasons to be disclosed at a later date. He is not going to be lynched today at the very least.
On September 24 2016 20:49 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 20:27 Rels wrote:
On September 24 2016 20:07 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 19:29 Rels wrote:
On September 24 2016 18:13 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 17:32 Calix wrote: Yo. I have a bit of time in the morning to pop in.
I actually don't mind the activity as much as I usually would because the posting isn't just a bunch of useless spam and it's much easier to catch up/ reread stuff.
On September 24 2016 11:46 SoulEaterQUEEN wrote: [quote] Interesting idea. What does this achieve? Last time I checked, voting for yourself is a lazy way of avoiding pressure, gives no info, doesn't get you reads. Unless you are schizo ^_^
Also hi there. I'm one of the newbs, this is my first on-site mafia, therefore I am not aware of the site meta. Also find it pointless to link off site meta examples personally. Too many players fall into the meta trap to conclude reads. Anyway this is shit fluff talking. Grill me, bake me, do whatever that makes you happy until my alignment cookie crumbles infront of you. I'll post my RVS vote, and call it a night.
Just to pop in with my two cents on this matter. Meta is good for establishing what is NAI for a player. (e.g., how often they vote or if they talk in a particular way) but I agree that a lot of people, myself included at times, use it as a substitute for analysis.
I'm not familiar with many people here (I've only really played with Skynx/ Superbia/ Jealous before) and I'd like to keep it that way so that my analysis isn't skewed by some subjective interpretations of how XYZ played in a game like, 486973 years ago. Only exception is if it's a bad player who has pronounced differences between their town/ scum game that means they make themselves obvious or some shit. So if we could keep the "X is scum/ town due to meta" talk down to a minimum then that'll be lovely.
As far as initial impressions go, I town-lean Jealous (this is mainly because we were posting similar things at approximately the same time when we were questioning Stutters so he's more likely to be coming from the same mindset as myself)
Ambivalent on Daneler. I didn't like his entrance because he was using someone else's words to put forth his opinion and then commented on something that looks odd but his follow-up made sense.
Stutters has done some questionable things with his claims to want to generate discussion. These two posts struck me as strange:
On September 24 2016 08:26 Stutters695 wrote: [quote] This is how I get reactions (or saying something controversial then lurking and waiting for reactions, but you don't want that). Obviously I don't want to lynch a lurker though because I want to lynch Xata.
Here he says that he was reaction-testing. NAI by itself but the fact that he capitulated so quickly makes me skeptical. Scum are more likely to shy away from their actions in this manner compared to town (who would be more confident in their ability to defend themselves) because they don't want too much attention.
Stutters: [quote] My dear Watson, the game is afoot. That does seem kind of counterproductive in retrospect. I think this is the part though where you guys debate if I'm terrible, trying to come off as terrible while scum or part of some master play.
Here he notes that people are likely to discuss his posts. Again, totally normal thing to say by itself, but what I don't like is the fact that he notes most of the possibilities before anyone can actually talk about him...since this limits opportunities for discussion...which goes against his stated aim of getting reactions and thus starting conversation.
It's not a legit contradiction or anything but I'd like Stutters to flesh out his reasoning here.
On September 24 2016 16:38 Lunaticman wrote: [quote]
Somehow I knew you would say that. I hope we can stay on friendly terms this time around but I doubt it.
Stutters is so far the most obvious townie.
I am a bit afraid of the logical development of this game. TL is filled with smarties that loves to talk the talk but always lynch the random dude that didnt sound smart.
This will be the doom of us all I tell you, nobody can look more perfect then the mafia because they already know everything!
This looks like the current meta afk townies and leading mafia for sure. This totally reminds me if the palmar/hf domination game check it out.
What makes you think Stutters is the most townie player in the thread?
Are you claiming to be one of the dumb-sounding people?
Fourth part is just weird. It states the obvious ("mafia are informed and will try to look townie") but it does it in a hyperbolic manner. Where are you going here?
If you think mafia are leading the discussion then that implies that you suspect players and this is something you did not put down in favour of a town-read. Who could fall under this category of 'leading mafia' in your eyes, if anyone?
Stutters is obvious town for me at least, I can understand why you wouldn't notice but I have played with him 4 times in a row and I'm pretty sure he is town.
Please explain
Well I don't want to day 1 because of reasons to be disclosed at a later date. He is not going to be lynched today at the very least.
I'll remember that. This "I promise I have ghood reasons" comes more often from scum than from town though.
That is just speculation and if you were town you wouldn't force me to say why I have a town read.
On September 24 2016 21:20 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 20:51 Rels wrote:
On September 24 2016 20:49 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 20:27 Rels wrote:
On September 24 2016 20:07 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 19:29 Rels wrote:
On September 24 2016 18:13 Lunaticman wrote: [quote]
Stutters is obvious town for me at least, I can understand why you wouldn't notice but I have played with him 4 times in a row and I'm pretty sure he is town.
Please explain
Well I don't want to day 1 because of reasons to be disclosed at a later date. He is not going to be lynched today at the very least.
I'll remember that. This "I promise I have ghood reasons" comes more often from scum than from town though.
That is just speculation and if you were town you wouldn't force me to say why I have a town read.
Why woudln't I do such a thing ? So apparently you think I'm scum ?
No I didn't say that you are scum I just find it suspect why I have to tell you why I town read him even though I don't want to yet.
There is no reason not to give your reasoning for a Town-read. I want to know why you think Shutters is Town and I will not accept "I'll tell you later" as an answer.
The game is 4 pages long day one, take a chill pill. I dare to say I have done more than half the players in the game and in my experience you never hit mafia day one. It is much better to build a town circle.
Also Stutters is in all likelyhood a blue role. And if he dies it is on you and Rels.
Am I crazy for thinking this is an anti town post? Making Stutters out to be blue role with no nuance is downright retarded.
It is absolutely anti-town. Do you think it is bad play or scum?
On September 25 2016 10:11 DoYouHas wrote: I am around Stutters. What are your thoughts on ptmc? I'll trade you for some on SEQ.
I don't think ptmc is a better lynch before SEQ gets to respond.
Voting me with his focus on Luna is super weird also.
SEQ does not bother me much at all. He reads like he jumped in with both feet and started rooting around. The line you bolded would be weak reasoning if he had actually gone after Xata or spread suspicion on him, but I don't think he did. He moves on pretty quickly and after talking about mafia in a pretty general sense (not unusual for someone new to forum mafia, especially with Jealous getting into it too) he seems to be scumhunting. You have picked a pretty early statement from him that does not, to me, hold the significance you are assigning it.
On September 25 2016 10:11 DoYouHas wrote: I am around Stutters. What are your thoughts on ptmc? I'll trade you for some on SEQ.
I don't think ptmc is a better lynch before SEQ gets to respond.
Voting me with his focus on Luna is super weird also.
SEQ does not bother me much at all. He reads like he jumped in with both feet and started rooting around. The line you bolded would be weak reasoning if he had actually gone after Xata or spread suspicion on him, but I don't think he did. He moves on pretty quickly and after talking about mafia in a pretty general sense (not unusual for someone new to forum mafia, especially with Jealous getting into it too) he seems to be scumhunting. You have picked a pretty early statement from him that does not, to me, hold the significance you are assigning it.
All of his statements are from around that time. Not to mention the apologetic/cautious nature. Just kind of screams first time scum to me.
I want to see what you are seeing. I think you are likely town. Can you walk me through it like I'm an idiot? Where is his apologetic/cautious nature evident?
On September 26 2016 03:50 Superbia wrote: I am so fucking confused as to why no one has called me mafia yet this game and now everyone is reacting like this.
???
Oh well.
Activity levels are low and there are better lynch targets than you, especially if your going to ramp up.
DH's tunnel onto Luna is very contrived with no follow through. Pair that with his questionable early posting and it feels like scum to me. Maybe he brings something to the table before deadline now, but it feels like he tunneled just long enough to get the spotlight on someone else then disappeared.
Luna made an anti-town play and has essentially shut down since coming under the displeasure of the thread, making him a very reasonable lynch and possible scum. I don't think making a meta read is in any way alignment indicative but I appear to be in the minority on that.
Jealous started with fluff, then stirred the pot, and finished by being super non-commital. Townies should be trusting there own judgement over that of people's whose alignments are uncertain. Also potentially scum.
On September 26 2016 03:50 Superbia wrote: I am so fucking confused as to why no one has called me mafia yet this game and now everyone is reacting like this.
???
Oh well.
Activity levels are low and there are better lynch targets than you, especially if your going to ramp up.
DH's tunnel onto Luna is very contrived with no follow through. Pair that with his questionable early posting and it feels like scum to me. Maybe he brings something to the table before deadline now, but it feels like he tunneled just long enough to get the spotlight on someone else then disappeared.
Luna made an anti-town play and has essentially shut down since coming under the displeasure of the thread, making him a very reasonable lynch and possible scum. I don't think making a meta read is in any way alignment indicative but I appear to be in the minority on that.
Jealous started with fluff, then stirred the pot, and finished by being super non-commital. Townies should be trusting there own judgement over that of people's whose alignments are uncertain. Also potentially scum.
So uh.
Read on DH is pre-flip association or what?
I don't think Luna and Dane are likely to be scum together, but taking there play individually I think either of them could be scum here. Is that what you meant?
Kind of a shame, in my head he was going to come back strong today and I was going to be able to make a case for Dane over him. But every hour that goes by without him contributing makes it more and more likely he flips scum.
@Calix - My read on SEQ in the post you looked at is in no way null. I described him as jumping in with both feet and actively scumhunting. Those are town attributes.
On September 25 2016 10:11 DoYouHas wrote: I am around Stutters. What are your thoughts on ptmc? I'll trade you for some on SEQ.
I don't think ptmc is a better lynch before SEQ gets to respond.
Voting me with his focus on Luna is super weird also.
SEQ does not bother me much at all. He reads like he jumped in with both feet and started rooting around. The line you bolded would be weak reasoning if he had actually gone after Xata or spread suspicion on him, but I don't think he did. He moves on pretty quickly and after talking about mafia in a pretty general sense (not unusual for someone new to forum mafia, especially with Jealous getting into it too) he seems to be scumhunting. You have picked a pretty early statement from him that does not, to me, hold the significance you are assigning it.
Calix is right. The sequence seems pretty forced. DYH said "I'll exchange your read on ptmc for my read on SEQ" when his read on SEQ is null. And it also looks like he was waiting of Stutters to go "OK what's your read on SEQ now ?"; but Stutters didn't, and DYH said it anyway. It looks like it was planned to appear to have a conversation.
Or maybe, just maybe, both of your assumptions are wrong here.
1. I wasn't providing a null read on SEQ 2. I was actually trying to have a conversation with someone I townread.
On September 26 2016 04:41 Rels wrote: So many people I want to lynch. Lunatic, Jealous, Dan, DYH ... If Lunatic's filter wasn't so bad I would be leading a charge on Dan for this awful list post.
Agree with me and want to lynch me. You are an interesting fellow.
On September 26 2016 04:18 DoYouHas wrote: ##Vote: Luna
Kind of a shame, in my head he was going to come back strong today and I was going to be able to make a case for Dane over him. But every hour that goes by without him contributing makes it more and more likely he flips scum.
^^^^worst votes 2k16
DYH is textbook bussing. The weird-ass sympathy nails it for me.
Just no. It is literally the opposite. If I was actually scum this would be how I would hedge on a ML. You don't hedge on a "textbook" bus. If I had ignored Luna up until this post then maybe, maybe you would have a point. But I didn't. I had already engaged the topic with Jealous last night. I had already put him in my lynch list today. I have no reason to weaken my stance on Luna that fits a mafia motivation.
For everything I don't like about you and think makes you scum: Your early fluff, non-committal, over-defensiveness, appeals to your noobieness, misrepresenting me, buddying Calix, looking at the proposal of multiple wagons from a mafia perspective instead of a town one (looking at it as a trap to be avoided instead of as an opportunity for better VCA) I can't seem to find the mafia actions in your play around the lynch. If I'm having trouble convincing myself of probably the most important part when I undoubtedly have my confirmation bias glasses on it probably isn't there. I was seeing your tonal shifts from casually attacking Luna to guarded consideration then back to casual attacking as very odd. But the thing I can't figure out if you are scum is why you would leave your vote on Luna and not Stutters before the wagon on Luna got rolling. This post:
On September 25 2016 17:17 Jealous wrote: I have to agree with Calix on the more anti-town part. [B]## Lunaticman[b] just in case I don't make it back.
It doesn't fit or is significantly more clever than I am.
Damn, damn, damn. I hate having no scum reads. I really do need to get to bed though. See you all with the daypost.
On September 27 2016 03:58 Rels wrote: So so scummy that I will commit my time to do a case on him. Let it be my last will.
DYH is scum and here is why
1. His attitude this game. Passive, has no reads nor will to solve the game.
Nowhere in this game DYH has tried to find scum. His opener is bland. Two convos posts with Stutters, a few unexplained townreads, and voilà. He had a few reads during the last half of D1. Everyone of them is scummy. Gonna expand on the other parts. Finally, this:
On September 26 2016 11:56 DoYouHas wrote: GRAH, I CAN'T MAKE IT STICK
For everything I don't like about you and think makes you scum: Your early fluff, non-committal, over-defensiveness, appeals to your noobieness, misrepresenting me, buddying Calix, looking at the proposal of multiple wagons from a mafia perspective instead of a town one (looking at it as a trap to be avoided instead of as an opportunity for better VCA) I can't seem to find the mafia actions in your play around the lynch. If I'm having trouble convincing myself of probably the most important part when I undoubtedly have my confirmation bias glasses on it probably isn't there. I was seeing your tonal shifts from casually attacking Luna to guarded consideration then back to casual attacking as very odd. But the thing I can't figure out if you are scum is why you would leave your vote on Luna and not Stutters before the wagon on Luna got rolling. This post:
On September 25 2016 17:17 Jealous wrote: I have to agree with Calix on the more anti-town part. ## Lunaticman just in case I don't make it back.
It doesn't fit or is significantly more clever than I am.
Damn, damn, damn. I hate having no scum reads. I really do need to get to bed though. See you all with the daypost.
He has no scumreads, and it is not because he admits that it erases the scuminess. Plus, it is not his meta. I played with town!DYH, and the dude was low activity but doing cases on people and being a real force in the thread. He got the most tryhard scum lynched (HTS), he got me lynched too (I was town) when I had like quadruple the number of posts.
2. This conversation was fabricated: The first read DYH gives is done in a pretty suspicious way:
On September 25 2016 10:11 DoYouHas wrote: I am around Stutters. What are your thoughts on ptmc? I'll trade you for some on SEQ.
I don't think ptmc is a better lynch before SEQ gets to respond.
Voting me with his focus on Luna is super weird also.
SEQ does not bother me much at all. He reads like he jumped in with both feet and started rooting around. The line you bolded would be weak reasoning if he had actually gone after Xata or spread suspicion on him, but I don't think he did. He moves on pretty quickly and after talking about mafia in a pretty general sense (not unusual for someone new to forum mafia, especially with Jealous getting into it too) he seems to be scumhunting. You have picked a pretty early statement from him that does not, to me, hold the significance you are assigning it.
DYH baited a conversation with that question. But when Stutters didn't take the bait, he gave his read anyway. It is forced, it is scummy. Town don't interact that way.
3. His attitude towards Lunatic DYH displayed the perfect busser attitude here. He had a very superficial read on Lunatic, agreeing that he needed to be lynched, but not analyzing anything:
On September 26 2016 03:58 DoYouHas wrote: Luna made an anti-town play and has essentially shut down since coming under the displeasure of the thread, making him a very reasonable lynch and possible scum. I don't think making a meta read is in any way alignment indicative but I appear to be in the minority on that.
On September 26 2016 04:18 DoYouHas wrote: ##Vote: Luna
Kind of a shame, in my head he was going to come back strong today and I was going to be able to make a case for Dane over him. But every hour that goes by without him contributing makes it more and more likely he flips scum.
Being part of the wagon on his teammate, without really analyzing him. But that didn't stop him from giving read on Dan and Jealous BASED ON their attitude on Lunatic. This is symptomatic of a teammate; acknowledging that the teammate is scum, but instead of talkinga bout him, talking about how others persuaded him. His entire Dan and Jealous reads are based on their treatements of Lunatic: + Show Spoiler +
On September 24 2016 23:53 DanelerH wrote: I am not liking Lunaticman right now. First of all, basically all Lunatic has done is posted a random Town read. Let's take a look at it:
On September 24 2016 16:38 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 16:18 Skynx wrote: Hmm Lunatic intro worst i guess.
Man i dont get why get this PL discussion every game. Its quite simple, odds are town barely have any info D1 to decide on a proper lynch, hence guy with 2 posts dies. Sometimes scum slip, or someone has incredible meta read confidence or w/e, then you dont't pl. Simple stuff.
Somehow I knew you would say that. I hope we can stay on friendly terms this time around but I doubt it.
Stutters is so far the most obvious townie.
I am a bit afraid of the logical development of this game. TL is filled with smarties that loves to talk the talk but always lynch the random dude that didnt sound smart.
This will be the doom of us all I tell you, nobody can look more perfect then the mafia because they already know everything!
This looks like the current meta afk townies and leading mafia for sure. This totally reminds me if the palmar/hf domination game check it out.
Lunaticman just throws a random Town-read in the middle of a bunch of irrelevant information. Furthermore, xe doesn't give any reasoning for the Town-read. When asked about it, xe responded with this series of posts:
On September 24 2016 20:07 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 19:29 Rels wrote:
On September 24 2016 18:13 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 17:32 Calix wrote: Yo. I have a bit of time in the morning to pop in.
I actually don't mind the activity as much as I usually would because the posting isn't just a bunch of useless spam and it's much easier to catch up/ reread stuff.
On September 24 2016 11:46 SoulEaterQUEEN wrote:
On September 24 2016 08:04 Xatalos wrote: Unfortunately, looks like you can't vote for yourself in this setup :/
Interesting idea. What does this achieve? Last time I checked, voting for yourself is a lazy way of avoiding pressure, gives no info, doesn't get you reads. Unless you are schizo ^_^
Also hi there. I'm one of the newbs, this is my first on-site mafia, therefore I am not aware of the site meta. Also find it pointless to link off site meta examples personally. Too many players fall into the meta trap to conclude reads. Anyway this is shit fluff talking. Grill me, bake me, do whatever that makes you happy until my alignment cookie crumbles infront of you. I'll post my RVS vote, and call it a night.
Just to pop in with my two cents on this matter. Meta is good for establishing what is NAI for a player. (e.g., how often they vote or if they talk in a particular way) but I agree that a lot of people, myself included at times, use it as a substitute for analysis.
I'm not familiar with many people here (I've only really played with Skynx/ Superbia/ Jealous before) and I'd like to keep it that way so that my analysis isn't skewed by some subjective interpretations of how XYZ played in a game like, 486973 years ago. Only exception is if it's a bad player who has pronounced differences between their town/ scum game that means they make themselves obvious or some shit. So if we could keep the "X is scum/ town due to meta" talk down to a minimum then that'll be lovely.
As far as initial impressions go, I town-lean Jealous (this is mainly because we were posting similar things at approximately the same time when we were questioning Stutters so he's more likely to be coming from the same mindset as myself)
Ambivalent on Daneler. I didn't like his entrance because he was using someone else's words to put forth his opinion and then commented on something that looks odd but his follow-up made sense.
Stutters has done some questionable things with his claims to want to generate discussion. These two posts struck me as strange:
On September 24 2016 08:26 Stutters695 wrote:
On September 24 2016 08:21 Jealous wrote: [quote] I'm usually pro-PL but it's too early to make such a decision. We need to see how others are posting. It's odd that you suggest this so early.
This is how I get reactions (or saying something controversial then lurking and waiting for reactions, but you don't want that). Obviously I don't want to lynch a lurker though because I want to lynch Xata.
Here he says that he was reaction-testing. NAI by itself but the fact that he capitulated so quickly makes me skeptical. Scum are more likely to shy away from their actions in this manner compared to town (who would be more confident in their ability to defend themselves) because they don't want too much attention.
Stutters:
Calix: You only got two responses before claiming it was a reaction-test?
My dear Watson, the game is afoot. That does seem kind of counterproductive in retrospect. I think this is the part though where you guys debate if I'm terrible, trying to come off as terrible while scum or part of some master play.
Here he notes that people are likely to discuss his posts. Again, totally normal thing to say by itself, but what I don't like is the fact that he notes most of the possibilities before anyone can actually talk about him...since this limits opportunities for discussion...which goes against his stated aim of getting reactions and thus starting conversation.
It's not a legit contradiction or anything but I'd like Stutters to flesh out his reasoning here.
On September 24 2016 16:38 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 16:18 Skynx wrote: Hmm Lunatic intro worst i guess.
Man i dont get why get this PL discussion every game. Its quite simple, odds are town barely have any info D1 to decide on a proper lynch, hence guy with 2 posts dies. Sometimes scum slip, or someone has incredible meta read confidence or w/e, then you dont't pl. Simple stuff.
Somehow I knew you would say that. I hope we can stay on friendly terms this time around but I doubt it.
Stutters is so far the most obvious townie.
I am a bit afraid of the logical development of this game. TL is filled with smarties that loves to talk the talk but always lynch the random dude that didnt sound smart.
This will be the doom of us all I tell you, nobody can look more perfect then the mafia because they already know everything!
This looks like the current meta afk townies and leading mafia for sure. This totally reminds me if the palmar/hf domination game check it out.
What makes you think Stutters is the most townie player in the thread?
Are you claiming to be one of the dumb-sounding people?
Fourth part is just weird. It states the obvious ("mafia are informed and will try to look townie") but it does it in a hyperbolic manner. Where are you going here?
If you think mafia are leading the discussion then that implies that you suspect players and this is something you did not put down in favour of a town-read. Who could fall under this category of 'leading mafia' in your eyes, if anyone?
Stutters is obvious town for me at least, I can understand why you wouldn't notice but I have played with him 4 times in a row and I'm pretty sure he is town.
Please explain
Well I don't want to day 1 because of reasons to be disclosed at a later date. He is not going to be lynched today at the very least.
On September 24 2016 20:49 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 20:27 Rels wrote:
On September 24 2016 20:07 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 19:29 Rels wrote:
On September 24 2016 18:13 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 17:32 Calix wrote: Yo. I have a bit of time in the morning to pop in.
I actually don't mind the activity as much as I usually would because the posting isn't just a bunch of useless spam and it's much easier to catch up/ reread stuff.
[quote]
Just to pop in with my two cents on this matter. Meta is good for establishing what is NAI for a player. (e.g., how often they vote or if they talk in a particular way) but I agree that a lot of people, myself included at times, use it as a substitute for analysis.
I'm not familiar with many people here (I've only really played with Skynx/ Superbia/ Jealous before) and I'd like to keep it that way so that my analysis isn't skewed by some subjective interpretations of how XYZ played in a game like, 486973 years ago. Only exception is if it's a bad player who has pronounced differences between their town/ scum game that means they make themselves obvious or some shit. So if we could keep the "X is scum/ town due to meta" talk down to a minimum then that'll be lovely.
As far as initial impressions go, I town-lean Jealous (this is mainly because we were posting similar things at approximately the same time when we were questioning Stutters so he's more likely to be coming from the same mindset as myself)
Ambivalent on Daneler. I didn't like his entrance because he was using someone else's words to put forth his opinion and then commented on something that looks odd but his follow-up made sense.
Stutters has done some questionable things with his claims to want to generate discussion. These two posts struck me as strange:
[quote]
Here he says that he was reaction-testing. NAI by itself but the fact that he capitulated so quickly makes me skeptical. Scum are more likely to shy away from their actions in this manner compared to town (who would be more confident in their ability to defend themselves) because they don't want too much attention.
[quote]
Here he notes that people are likely to discuss his posts. Again, totally normal thing to say by itself, but what I don't like is the fact that he notes most of the possibilities before anyone can actually talk about him...since this limits opportunities for discussion...which goes against his stated aim of getting reactions and thus starting conversation.
It's not a legit contradiction or anything but I'd like Stutters to flesh out his reasoning here.
[quote]
What makes you think Stutters is the most townie player in the thread?
Are you claiming to be one of the dumb-sounding people?
Fourth part is just weird. It states the obvious ("mafia are informed and will try to look townie") but it does it in a hyperbolic manner. Where are you going here?
If you think mafia are leading the discussion then that implies that you suspect players and this is something you did not put down in favour of a town-read. Who could fall under this category of 'leading mafia' in your eyes, if anyone?
Stutters is obvious town for me at least, I can understand why you wouldn't notice but I have played with him 4 times in a row and I'm pretty sure he is town.
Please explain
Well I don't want to day 1 because of reasons to be disclosed at a later date. He is not going to be lynched today at the very least.
I'll remember that. This "I promise I have ghood reasons" comes more often from scum than from town though.
That is just speculation and if you were town you wouldn't force me to say why I have a town read.
On September 24 2016 21:20 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 20:51 Rels wrote:
On September 24 2016 20:49 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 20:27 Rels wrote:
On September 24 2016 20:07 Lunaticman wrote:
On September 24 2016 19:29 Rels wrote: [quote] Please explain
Well I don't want to day 1 because of reasons to be disclosed at a later date. He is not going to be lynched today at the very least.
I'll remember that. This "I promise I have ghood reasons" comes more often from scum than from town though.
That is just speculation and if you were town you wouldn't force me to say why I have a town read.
Why woudln't I do such a thing ? So apparently you think I'm scum ?
No I didn't say that you are scum I just find it suspect why I have to tell you why I town read him even though I don't want to yet.
There is no reason not to give your reasoning for a Town-read. I want to know why you think Shutters is Town and I will not accept "I'll tell you later" as an answer.
The game is 4 pages long day one, take a chill pill. I dare to say I have done more than half the players in the game and in my experience you never hit mafia day one. It is much better to build a town circle.
Also Stutters is in all likelyhood a blue role. And if he dies it is on you and Rels.
Am I crazy for thinking this is an anti town post? Making Stutters out to be blue role with no nuance is downright retarded.
It is absolutely anti-town. Do you think it is bad play or scum?
On September 25 2016 10:53 DoYouHas wrote: So is it bad enough that you would want to lynch him or do you currently have a stronger scum read on someone else currently?
On September 25 2016 11:09 DoYouHas wrote: @Jealous, are you in and out? Why is it taking you this long to respond to me?
On September 26 2016 03:50 Superbia wrote: I am so fucking confused as to why no one has called me mafia yet this game and now everyone is reacting like this.
???
Oh well.
Activity levels are low and there are better lynch targets than you, especially if your going to ramp up.
DH's tunnel onto Luna is very contrived with no follow through. Pair that with his questionable early posting and it feels like scum to me. Maybe he brings something to the table before deadline now, but it feels like he tunneled just long enough to get the spotlight on someone else then disappeared.
Luna made an anti-town play and has essentially shut down since coming under the displeasure of the thread, making him a very reasonable lynch and possible scum. I don't think making a meta read is in any way alignment indicative but I appear to be in the minority on that.
Jealous started with fluff, then stirred the pot, and finished by being super non-commital. Townies should be trusting there own judgement over that of people's whose alignments are uncertain. Also potentially scum.
On September 26 2016 03:50 Superbia wrote: I am so fucking confused as to why no one has called me mafia yet this game and now everyone is reacting like this.
???
Oh well.
Activity levels are low and there are better lynch targets than you, especially if your going to ramp up.
DH's tunnel onto Luna is very contrived with no follow through. Pair that with his questionable early posting and it feels like scum to me. Maybe he brings something to the table before deadline now, but it feels like he tunneled just long enough to get the spotlight on someone else then disappeared.
Luna made an anti-town play and has essentially shut down since coming under the displeasure of the thread, making him a very reasonable lynch and possible scum. I don't think making a meta read is in any way alignment indicative but I appear to be in the minority on that.
Jealous started with fluff, then stirred the pot, and finished by being super non-commital. Townies should be trusting there own judgement over that of people's whose alignments are uncertain. Also potentially scum.
So uh.
Read on DH is pre-flip association or what?
I don't think Luna and Dane are likely to be scum together, but taking there play individually I think either of them could be scum here. Is that what you meant?
#1. I actually had 3 people I thought were likely scum D1. I also gave 4 town reads. I can't really respond to you saying everyone one of my reads is scummy since I don't know what that means.
I currently have no scum reads. I think I was wrong on Jealous and I'm not going to just jump to another person until I reassess the game. This just is what it is. I don't think it is scummy to realize a flaw in your own case, in fact I think it shows that I wasn't just trying to attack Jealous, I genuinely thought he was scum.
For claiming to know my meta you have a strange way of repeating history. In the exact game you reference you come after me for having low volume, for not liking the way I voted, and for not having scum reads, all around D1 and N1. Sound familiar? The case that caught HtS came AFTER a reassessment of the game and AFTER being attacked by yourself and others for not having scumreads. You paint me as a mover and shaker that gets shit done but forget that I really wasn't until I gained a mound of town cred for my role in getting HtS lynched. It is eerie how similar this early game dynamic between us is.
#2. "DYH baited a conversation" sounds so devious. As if I was luring Stutters into some big mistake. Which was what exactly? Talking to me? Talking about ptmc? I phrased it the way I did because why the hell not. I don't have a plan or a scheme or a reason outside of wanting to hear what he thought of ptmc and doing so before disagreeing with him about SEQ. Which is exactly what happened. I don't know where you are getting, "Stutters didn't take the bait". He gave me 2 solid thoughts on ptmc. Just because they were brief and my thoughts on SEQ weren't doesn't change that.
#3. Me in respect to the Luna lynch is the only decent point you make here. I didn't think providing a town read on Stutters without a reason made him scum. After all, I had done the exact same thing and everyone focusing on Luna completely ignored it. I was actually thinking he was town, even after the power role crap even though it was anti-town. It was far from a confident read, but that was the way I was leaning. It wasn't until he had shut down for a goodly length of time that I started accepting him as a good lynch target. With him actually flipping scum my hesitancy in pursuing him and voting him doesn't look good, fair enough.
However, here is where your argument is just bad. I did not like the play of Dane and Jealous, I thought their play was scummy. Their suspicions happened to be on Luna. I thought Luna's play was anti-town and it was his lack of activity that pushed him into scummy territory. I wasn't putting forth my guess for the complete scum team, I was putting forth the people who looked scummy enough to me that I would want to lynch them, without drawing on pre-flip association. -
Every way you characterize me as scum is undercut by something else you don't like.
I don't want to analyse Luna but I engage Jealous on the topic. I 'defend' Luna by putting Dane and Jealous in my lynch list, but do nothing to move the lynch. I 'bus' Luna but in no way set myself up to look good on the flip.
I suppose I could be scum even with all of that from your perspective, but I would be the most half-measure, lackluster scum ever, failing to take advantage of anything. I would really hope you would realize I'm better than that.
Lastly, this isn't my scum meta. As scum I lurk, I position myself to look good the vast majority of the time, and I'm addicted to being right.
Hey guys, I have been slammed at work this week. I will probably have at most 1-2 hours to look at this game between now and deadline.
Many of you want to lynch me, I get it. It might even be for the best as my time really won't free up until this weekend. I apologize for not being on top of my time management to play this game the way it should be played.
That being said, I'm really not going to get into defending myself but I will try to get out a few reads before you all send me packing to try and not leave the town with nothing. If I am unable to get anything out before the deadline tomorrow GL town, ya still got this .
Rels - This is town Rels, it may be meta, it may be whatever, but if he ends up being mafia he gets a hearty handshake from me because this feels exactly like town Rels. Strongest read I have in the game.
Calix - Everyone already agrees on this one, never lynch, maybe MAYBE take a harder look if he is alive lategame.
Jealous - The reasons he irks me are legitimate reasons. How he played out with the Luna lynch is the only reason I don't want to push him. However, how things played out with the Luna lynch and his actions I can't make sense from a mafia perspective. So he deserves to be pressured and kept a close eye on but is ultimately null.
Dane - This guy is null-scum. He has provided the town very, very little. Although the Luna lynch did make him look better, he has largely positioned himself for my flip and for stutters'. His list post was bad, his entry was bad, his activity is bad. About the only thing he has going for him is the Luna lynch. If stutters is actually town this guy is definitely mafia.
On September 29 2016 05:45 Calix wrote: So what are your reasons for not liking Jealous? It's not made clear.
On September 26 2016 11:56 DoYouHas wrote:
For everything I don't like about you and think makes you scum: Your early fluff, non-committal, over-defensiveness, appeals to your noobieness, misrepresenting me, buddying Calix, looking at the proposal of multiple wagons from a mafia perspective instead of a town one (looking at it as a trap to be avoided instead of as an opportunity for better VCA) I can't seem to find the mafia actions in your play around the lynch.
ptmc - The crazy effort in analyzing the game is major town points from me. The way he addressed my response to Rels' case also showed that he is reading carefully and thinking critically. So long as he doesn't drop off hard I'm thinking he is town.
Xata - I liked him from the first hours of the game when he interacted with Calix. Calix stuck around and mixed things up even when he had been given an out, Xata recognized this and gave him a townread for it. I agreed with the read and I liked that he mentioned it as it would be an easy thing to let slide to keep options open. He also seems to be trying to solve the game and I might be biased towards him as he is one of the few who is toying with scenarios that don't involve me being scum.
SEQ - I'm sticking with my earlier read on SEQ, I haven't tried to read TT critically. I may revisit this one if I have time.
stutters - Stutters did something very like Calix in the early game. We got talking about our histories in mafia, I provided mine, asked for his, then changed my mind and said I would just look up his meta if I needed it. He wanted to give me information about himself, he filled me in on his meta, failings and all. Then when he comes back halfway through D1 he doesn't get involved with Luna, which you would think would concern him, instead he pursues SEQ and isn't happy we aren't talking about SEQ. Of course, now that I'm typing that out I realize that he could have been avoiding Luna and trying to draw attention away from him. Hrrrmmm, maybe move him closer to null.
On September 29 2016 06:24 Calix wrote: Actually I have one question. DYH, who are you going to vote for and why? Don't spend ages on answering this, lol.
##Vote: Scott
I've been thinking about Superbia's kill. There are 4 reasons I can think of for it.
1. Medic dodge. 2. Town is off track, didn't want a fresh vet voice changing things 3. Superbia is on right track 4. WIFOM salad
#1 is obviously the case. With their RB gone they aren't going to target Calix (most townread person N1). #2 is iffy. Obviously taking out a fresh voice in Superbia accomplishes this, but he isn't heavily townread and he has stated repeatedly that he was going to be lazy this game. #3 is the most likely case. After losing your RB the first night you can't risk someone with correct suspicions putting you down 0-2. Most common reason to kill someone, also makes the most sense from the mafia perspective this game. #4 is very unlikely. There are too many people who have established themselves decently as town, too many people more productive than Superbia.
On September 29 2016 06:08 Tictock wrote: DYH, why are we getting these reads 2 at a time?
Iunno, gets em out faster but in 5 posts instead of 10? Because I am, that's why.
Next 2 are harder. I haven't paid much attention to skynx or scott this game.
"Hey guys, I haven't read half of the game and I haven't really paid any attention to these posters, but here's my opinion."
This is an extremely odd thing to say to your #1 scum read on the eve of his flip.
Why ? It is pretty true
True or not you don't tell someone you think is scum to stop posting pre-flip, that is extremely foolish.
I didn't tell you to stop posting pre-flip, I suggested that you might want to read the thread before posting reads tho. Like, pick one person and give a read, if you're pressed for time.
I have skimmed d2, I am not completely ignorant of it. You of all people should know how long it takes me to dig deep into someone. I don't have that kind of time.
On September 29 2016 06:24 Calix wrote: Actually I have one question. DYH, who are you going to vote for and why? Don't spend ages on answering this, lol.
##Vote: Scott
I've been thinking about Superbia's kill. There are 4 reasons I can think of for it.
1. Medic dodge. 2. Town is off track, didn't want a fresh vet voice changing things 3. Superbia is on right track 4. WIFOM salad
#1 is obviously the case. With their RB gone they aren't going to target Calix (most townread person N1). #2 is iffy. Obviously taking out a fresh voice in Superbia accomplishes this, but he isn't heavily townread and he has stated repeatedly that he was going to be lazy this game. #3 is the most likely case. After losing your RB the first night you can't risk someone with correct suspicions putting you down 0-2. Most common reason to kill someone, also makes the most sense from the mafia perspective this game. #4 is very unlikely. There are too many people who have established themselves decently as town, too many people more productive than Superbia.
Wha..
Was this supposed to have something to do with your vote?
And you say 1 is obv the case, and 3 is the most likely case...
The cases are not exclusive. Once you decide to medic dodge by not hitting someone like Calix you have a whole host of options left.
On September 29 2016 06:24 Calix wrote: Actually I have one question. DYH, who are you going to vote for and why? Don't spend ages on answering this, lol.
##Vote: Scott
I've been thinking about Superbia's kill. There are 4 reasons I can think of for it.
1. Medic dodge. 2. Town is off track, didn't want a fresh vet voice changing things 3. Superbia is on right track 4. WIFOM salad
#1 is obviously the case. With their RB gone they aren't going to target Calix (most townread person N1). #2 is iffy. Obviously taking out a fresh voice in Superbia accomplishes this, but he isn't heavily townread and he has stated repeatedly that he was going to be lazy this game. #3 is the most likely case. After losing your RB the first night you can't risk someone with correct suspicions putting you down 0-2. Most common reason to kill someone, also makes the most sense from the mafia perspective this game. #4 is very unlikely. There are too many people who have established themselves decently as town, too many people more productive than Superbia.
By 3, Xata would also be likely scum no ? Can you answer why you claim you have no previous Skynx read when you actually had one ?
By 3, Xata hadn't pressured Scott much at all pre-EON iirc. So no, Xata isn't in the same boat.
I'm racing the clock, short on sleep, and not fact checking myself. Huzzah, my read now agrees with my read before.
On September 29 2016 06:39 Calix wrote: DYH, why try to start a new train when you could vote for Stutters?
I find that extremely weird when you said he was a possible scum tbh.
Let's be honest here, I'm not turning this train on me around. There is too much information to be gained and too much has happened/not happened to and from me to not go through with the lynch.
So I'm going to put my vote on the person I think is most likely to flip scum. Stutters is possible scum but I still trust my gut reads from early in the game. If I end up being wrong, so be it, but I think Scott is more likely.
On September 29 2016 06:39 Calix wrote: DYH, why try to start a new train when you could vote for Stutters?
I find that extremely weird when you said he was a possible scum tbh.
Let's be honest here, I'm not turning this train on me around. There is too much information to be gained and too much has happened/not happened to and from me to not go through with the lynch.
So I'm going to put my vote on the person I think is most likely to flip scum. Stutters is possible scum but I still trust my gut reads from early in the game. If I end up being wrong, so be it, but I think Scott is more likely.
Is there something other on scott than NK analysis?
Eh, nothing concrete or convincing. It is mostly PoE from my other reads. I nod along with most of Skynx's posts and can see them coming from town, Scott gets squinty eyes from me with how he is pushing people, being agreeable and generally not sticking his neck out.