Newbie Student Mafia XXII

On August 01 2016 02:16 beentheredonethat wrote:
Kill Race Bannon before the replacement. Best kill so far. A player that has already stirred so much chaos and made himself unreadable will never be able to fully establish himself as town thus he should be killed asap.

On July 31 2016 19:39 silentwarrior wrote:
Hi guys, this is my second game on TL. I play mostly irl mafia, but wanted to try this again, first game ended too quick. Ok, so about Race Bannon. He posted a lot in the beginning when not many else did, which is good as it helps town discussion. Granted, most of it was nonsense but he is atleast posting. Don't think he should continue with it later though.

But what I wanted to focus on was KelsierSC



So, his first post he says that this is stupid and is gonna not post anything until the evening when something "reasonable" has been posted. But why not post yourself? Maybe say something reasonable yourself. Going away for hours without posting does not help us.



Then this, where he votes for Race Bannon (which is not what I have a problem with), but then states "See you all in a few days". Again, stating his intention to not post.
I think not wanting to post and waiting for others seems like something scum would do.
##vote Kelsier SC

On August 01 2016 04:27 J Roc wrote:



Find it interesting that he wants to lynch the spot for reasons other than policy.

On August 01 2016 07:53 silentwarrior wrote:


My opinion hasn't changed that much. My problem with Kelsier wasn't that he voted against Race or even that he didn't contribute. Rather, it was that he wanted others to post more constructive stuff but he himself was going to not post even though he could. That to me struck as very strange. Granted, it was the first few post and I did state that my vote on him was mainly to pressure him to post. But reading his latest posts he dosen't still dosen't seem to want to contribute, but still blames others for this.

Also, do you mean my post is reasonable or Kelsier?

On August 01 2016 11:36 -Celestial- wrote:
Hey so I'm in. Day was pretty great. Really interesting panel with Warwick Davis answering questions, spent far too much money on a Viking drinking horn, chatted to a guy in a Deadpool costume wearing a maid uniform, just the usual convention things.

So...the game. I'm going to post thoughts on everyone anyway, despite Race's chaos. I'm not as happy with this as I'd like to be but eh...

Lunaticman - Thing about lynching Grac because of a previous game is NAI as far as I'm concerned. Just salt. Don't particularly like the assumption of Race being town based on the spamming but honestly I don't think it even matters. It was just a massive disruption to the game all told. This line indicates to me that they're not on the mafia team together:



Even though this is perfectly true it's not something I think you would say about a fellow mafia member so early on. You wouldn't want to undermine their credibility (even if Race was doing a more than good enough job doing that himself). This isn't to say that Lunatic or Race/scott isn't mafia, but a Lunatic/(Race/scott)/x team is unlikely in my eyes based on that post alone, which is a potentially useful bit of information going forward.

I actually really like Lunatic's reply to Skynx:



Lunatic is town leaning a little from this in my eyes (unless we want to go tinfoil hat and assume they're both mafia and are playing a VERY aggressive game together). If they're both mafia then he doesn't do this so early because you're starting to put yourself too close to a teammate too early on before anyone is being townread and before you see where the game is going. If Lunatic is mafia and Skynx isn't then I think you be a bit more buddy-buddy about the "hey we agree on this!" thing.

Questioning Grack about that kinda weird thing on Race is good. From there on seems to be asking genuinely useful probing questions. Trying to get a game going despite everything that's happened. All good stuff.


silentwarrior - The focus on Kelsier is really, really weird. Like...to me Kelsier was clearly just sick and fed up of what Race was doing. Hell if I'd not been out all day I'd probably have felt the same way if I'd been looking forward to getting the game going. It's totally NAI that he felt like that. But silent went ham on it. He's right that avoiding posting and waiting for others is kinda scummy, but there was practically nothing to go on and Race was just messing up the thread with garbage.

Maybe I sympathise with Kelsier a bit here because every game so far I've liked to hold back a bit at the beginning so I could get a decent read post off as my first major contribution. I like having a starting point for myself, see.

silent then calls out Race for the spam. But it was the easiest call-out in the world because of the overwhelming amount of garbage. ANYONE calls this out. As any alignment. Regardless of the alignment of Race. Even in the one circumstance that you don't really want to call someone out for it (i.e. being on the same Mafia team) you still call this out because if someone on a scum team with you is doing that kind of something you bus them hard because they're not helping at all.

I don't entirely dislike silent's reasoning on the Kelsier vote but it's still reaching incredibly far. Kelsier's actions weren't unreasonable given the circumstances, even if they were a bit scummy. I could easily see a town doing exactly the same things.

Shady. Do not like. Just going ham on Kelsier and looking at literally nobody else.


beentheredonethat - Claimed he was going to wreck people. Then said we should kill Race "before the replacement". That's an incredibly scummy thing to do as far as I'm concerned. Then made a joke with Moosy. That is literally the entire content of his filter, three posts since his confirm. Very dodgy.


MoosyDoosy - Said to ignore Race. It's a fair point to make. It gets a bit weirder later on though. He says he's not fond of D1 policy lynches which is a fair point too and a position I can agree with (though I'd still have totally policied Race for that utter nonsense, it was really getting on my nerves). Then claims he was pretty sure Race was town, then says it'll become more apparent with the next person. Then talks about how Race's spam was pointless.

You know...if I want to go REALLY tinfoil hat here I could almost say Moosy is protecting Race here by playing down the importance of that insanity. The fact that he's replying to a joke about him being scum by saying it's a good read would be one hell of a mind game tactic if you actually were scum.

All of Moosy's posts actually make a lot of sense to me and I can see where they're all coming from. But there's just something here that makes me very uncomfortable.


Race Bannonscott31337 - Oh god where to start...you know I'm going to just totally discount all of Race's stuff right now. I MIGHT go back to it at some point just in case there's literally anything in there to be used but right now from a brief look I can't pick out much that's even coherent, let alone useful.

Which leaves me with scott. His http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/511961-newbie-student-mafia-xxii?page=14#268 ]first post is actually really, really cute. I can't draw any useful alignment information on it because it basically amounts to a town claim, which anyone would do. Though I think he might actually have a bit of a point.

Good point on BTDT. Totally disagree on silent. Agree with the thing about that particular J Roc post. Again really dislike his position on silent.

Can't do much with scott right now. Race's stuff is totally useless in this too. I'm really not sure I like the buddying with silent but that might just be because we seem to disagree on silent; someone buddying with someone you're scum leaning on is always going to feel bad. On the other hand his posts seem sincere.


Stutters695 - Said wouldn't be about much because of birthday. Isn't about much. Totally fair enough imo.

Fed up with Race, like a lot of people. NAI.

Really good point in reply to Moosy. I find him pointing out that Race is actually capable of being coherent, he just isn't, quite a towny thing to do. Because it comes from a mentality of wanting the game to actually go somewhere.

I also like the calling out of Grack claiming that Race was probably town. And challenging the reply. I'd like to see more tomorrow but all I've seen here so far is coming from a town mentality.


J Roc - The whole blue claim thing earlier came across as quite silly honestly. Responding rather flippantly to posts, though quite amusingly admittedly. Early stuff is a bunch of nothing, don't like.

But then calls out silent for that post of his that I found awful as well. Asks Race to comment on the Kelsier vote. And points out the really weird BTDT post. Like this bit. On balance probably more townie than not.


Mderg - Pretty funny first post I have to admit. Also calls out silent for his Kelsier stuff. Also called to kill off Race, frustration apparent. Piggy-backing off Skynx's post comment on silent but he previously called out silent and I can't disagree with Skynx's post so I don't think it's a case of buddying up. Kinda weird post calling out Lunatic for saying 'bus'; although he's perfectly right in the specifics I don't really get any maliciousness from Lunatic's post he's quoting. Frankly I think this is an overreaction to Lunatic's post given that Lunatic probably just misspoke.

Also told Kelsier he should get in the game. That's fine I guess.

Nothing particularly special to make mderg either way here honestly. I want to see more. He's not posted since the replacement.


KelsierSC - Done hardly anything so far. Kinda a fair point for a big chunk of it because of frustration over Race but since the sub still hasn't done a lot. Lunatic called him out a bit and the reply was literally just 'good for you'. Then he called the game terrible. Then say Skynx is okay but doesn't like anyone else.

On the one hand the lurking and seemingly not playing is kinda scummy. On the other hand I don't think mafia is so damn flippant about it. Null


Skynx - Did absolutely jack all until Race got banned honestly. But I like his thoughts on silent's post when Grack asked for them. And he was spot-on with the comment to BTDT too. Kinda like. Would not lynch today.


Grackaroni - Has a lengthier filter than most but there's honestly not a lot in it. The stuff pre-Race ban is a bunch of nothing. I don't like all this "Race is probably town" based off the utter garbage Race was serving up. Also I feel like the whole "Mafia plays subdued" thing is honestly pretty leading. I don't think this is necessarily a safe assumption at all, but he seems quite happy to push town down that way of thinking.

I like that he brings up silent's post but I don't like that he doesn't want to post his own thoughts before getting other people's. I also don't like that he disagrees with it but just dismisses it as 'reasoning a new town player would make' whilst simultaneously setting up to call anyone who calls silent scum, scum themselves. Then calling up people who were calling on silent, despite the fact that he's admitted that he disagrees with silent himself...he just doesn't find him particularly scummy for it.

This is a kind of weird mentality...you agree that you don't like the thoughts in silent's post...but they're scummy for feeling that it might make silent scummy?

I got split feelings on the three he calls most towny. So I guess I can't do much with this.

However I have huge issues with this bit:



No. Mderg wanted to policy lynch Race, because he was screwing up the thread. Mderg hasn't commented AT ALL on scott himself because he's not been in thread since then. This is pretty deceptive stuff from Grack imo. I don't like it when people try to slip things like that under the radar. Scum lean.
The defence on Lunatic is NAI because its exactly what I thought. Asking Kelsier to play is fine and complaining about him complaining is also fine but nothing special. Asks for a lynch target from Kelsier. NAI, anyone would want more info from Kelsier at this stage no matter their alignment or Kelsier's.


Rels - Literally done absolutely nothing since the game started. -_-


So right now my things look something like this:
Town lean - Stutters695, J Roc, Lunaticman, Skynx
Null - Moosy, scott, mderg, KelsierSC, Rels
Scum lean - silentwarrior, beentheredonethat (unless he gives a good reply about 'that one post'), Grack

Questions for people!

silent: more thoughts, if you please, on someone other than Kelsier. You're tunnelling hard here and the only comment you've made about anyone else is complaining about Race's spamming.

beentheredonethat: do something. Literally anything. Call someone scum. Call someone town. Ask a question of someone. Whatever. Also I'd like some thoughts about where you were coming from with that godawful call to lynch Race "before" a replacement.

mderg: thoughts now that scott has replaced Race then, given that the last thing you seemed to want to do was lynch Race?

KelsierSC: as for BTDT. Please do something, anything. What do you like about Skynx, for example? Though I sort of assume it's probably the same things I like so I guess that won't really get us anywhere...

Rels: same as BTDT. But bigger: DO SOMETHING, LITERALLY ANYTHING.

scott: Bit more specific question that I'm curious about. You posted this:



When you were saying about RB being town and looking into who voted for him. I know this is only the people who actively voted for him but I expressed in thread that I'd probably be up with plynching him given the nonsense going on. Any particular reason I'm being left off your potential scum list? Or is it just my relative lack of filter and the fact I didn't actually get around to voting due to being out most of the day which made you miss it?

On August 01 2016 11:59 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Hey scott what do you think of me c;;;;;;;;;

On August 01 2016 17:40 mderg wrote:

I didn't push lunatic, I was just hoping my post would start some discussion while I'm away.

That makes it 2 "town slots" I've pushed. I really can't see what you like about either of them. I actually dislike scott's posts more than I did Race Bannon's (alignment wise).

On August 02 2016 01:51 mderg wrote:

The scumread itself is not my issue with scott. I'll try to explain it again.

btdt's post basically had a big sign with "That's bad for town" attached to it. Scott scumread him for that,nothing wrong with that, though a bit superficial.
Then he also townread J Roc for voicing the same concerns about the post with the big sign. Calling out such a post is really not a reason for townreading somebody.
He also liked silentwarrior's post about Kelsier. Kelsier carrying a huge sign saying "anti town".

That's just way too superficial for me. There's no effort to really figure people out in there, just focusing on single posts with imo very little value. It's like he's following a simple line of seeing a obviouslybad post -> seeing people calling those posts out -> townreading those people. I'd expect a townie to put a bit more thought into it than that.

On August 02 2016 02:55 Grackaroni wrote:
Scott why is J Roc in your not lynch category?

On August 01 2016 04:27 J Roc wrote:



Find it interesting that he wants to lynch the spot for reasons other than policy.

On August 01 2016 20:30 J Roc wrote:
Just something real quick and I will be back later.

I really hated scotts entrance.

Race Bannons actions completely null and the fact that he came in here saying he knew RB was town from a obs point of view is really off to me.

Also the dude who wrote the huge post. You have pocketed me. Well played. Not voting you.

Ill be back later.

##Vote: Scott

On August 02 2016 03:07 beentheredonethat wrote:




Good stuff. Me town. Mderg probably town (I'm on page 14 thus far). Stutters no idea, and kelsier sounds fucked up, saying the game is terrible and so on. So Kelsier/Stutters.

On August 02 2016 04:05 Stutters695 wrote:
Grack is 75% likely to be scum. He has no actual reads and when he does vote someone, it's never from demonstrating a scum mindset.

I'm not sold on lunatic. He's had a hard time establishing reads, but that's more expected from a new player.

On August 02 2016 05:03 Rels wrote:
yo

On August 02 2016 05:26 Skynx wrote:
Anyway I think this is my preferred priority algorythm for now:

Rels>Stutters>btdt>Grack>silent

So imo i liked gracks posts more than other two. Can't really quote out specific ones but his interactions felt more like natural towny to me.
Rels is plynch, same with silent.

We can also throw a curveball and go Luna if we don't want to deal with similar behavior cuz he didnt changed much but pretty sure he's town.

On August 02 2016 07:35 Grackaroni wrote:

I'm seeing a lot of squirming within Rels' scum reads between celestial and stutters, so I would beg town to follow through on this mderg lynch.

On August 02 2016 07:15 Stutters695 wrote:


It shows either a general lack of disinterest(not following along) or an inability to make actual reads.
1) blatant misunderstanding/misrepresentation in his case on me.

2) his point on Scott again shows how little attention he is actually paying. He didn't immediately accuse 4 people of being scum, he said he'd expect to find scum on the wagon and would thus look into them.

3) his scum reads don't show a lot of thought in them while his town reads do. When I first rolled mafia it was incredibly hard to give scum reads with any sort of genuine belief when you know they're town. Bussing and town reads are much easier to give. I'm getting those vibes hard from his comeback post and his lynch gives much more info than a lynch on mderg.

On August 02 2016 11:16 -Celestial- wrote:


Well off your last set of quotes I'm assuming you're implying at least Grack and silent.

Grack: Kelsier (31/7 01:51 BST) > mderg (1/8 00:20) > Unvote (1/8 18:02) > Lunaticman (1/8 19:27) > Stutters (1/8 19:57) > mderg (1/8 22:30)

silent: Kelsier (31/7 11:39) > Stutters (1/8 21:53) > mderg (1/8 23:40)


...both Grack and silent were on the same people at the same time on three separate occasions.

Surely it can't be that easy?

On August 02 2016 22:13 Rels wrote:

I like this list.

On August 05 2016 07:35 KelsierSC wrote:
Lunatic. Silent and moosy.

On August 05 2016 08:14 Rels wrote:
BTDT is also super likely scum by what happen just there. I mean, he was likely scum before, but even more now.
When KSC claimed I started pushing BTDT, THEN Luna counterclaimed. If BTDT was town Luna could have gone with the ride and just lynch BTDT without counterclaiming.
Then the last one is one of scott / Moosy. Probably. Some tinfoil on some other people but we don't have tyhe lynches to decide since one mislynch and game is over.

On August 05 2016 21:59 beentheredonethat wrote:

I am not exactly understanding why I am "outed" here. The best play would have been to lynch the obviously fake counter claim. Let me bring up the fact that I pushed Lunatic D1. Brought him up to people's attention N1. That I was the third to vote him and thus was the (imho) initial vote that got the wagon running. Keep in mind that my stance was that Kelsier should be today's lynch BEFORE the wagon had finally formed.

You are following thread sentiment. You contributed nothing D2 except for a huge but redundant post on the already formed wagon which can very easily be used as a big excuse for you bussing a teammate.

"Lunatic's claim came off the back of actually doing stuff". You are contradicting yourself here. You pointed out, as others did before you, that most of Lunatic's stuff was actually empty, half-hearted, and scum-indicative. Why do you throw away all those points that you brought up before and say now that "he was actually doing stuff"? What exactly was he doing besides claiming medic? Lunatic claimed medic for one purpose only: to avert his lynch and to get another blue role lynched. And you insist that he actually was doing something? That is a plain lie that strongly speaks for you being Lunatic's team member. As I pointed out before, you were reluctant to vote him ALTHOUGH you made a huge post on him. You should be the next lynch right after.

This is your very first post about pretty much everyone (#281) :


The first thing you do is to paint a "Lunatic and RB do not have the same alignment" picture. You do not follow up on this, instead you directly start to build a town read about Lunatic. He also is the very first person for you to get into. Who are the most present people in your mind when you're scum and it's D1? Right, your teammates, because you know their alignments and you talk to them in QT. So why not start with that guy, it doesn't even have to be a concious decision.

Celestial is creating a town read on Lunatic for reasons that are very vague and feel highly constructed. This is the first indicator that those guys are in the same team.

Another thing is: you absolutely dislike Scott and don't like my townread on him. How does that go together with scott's harsh thread entry that was basically consisting of pushing me? If Scott is scum (and I am scum in your world), how does it makes sense that he is so pushy D1 on me although there is literally no need to do so?


More interaction with Lunatic. But it's only about explaining Bussing. It's of course very good to remind a player to "carefully read into me, because I could be lying". This is a very interesting interaction because it is seemingly helping each other out while in reality, it is a process of putting Lunatic in a position as a full newbie. That way, town will of course be hesistant to lynch him, and will read his posts with a mindset of "that guy is new, he might be bad not scum". That feels exactly like a move that a more experienced player would make. Celestial is a more experienced player.


What is this question. The answer is in the rules. Why is the interest in Rels' consequences so high? Easily explained. Celestial as an experienced mafia player knows that Rels is one of the best players in this game and knows that he is town. So he tries to find out if he's getting modkilled so they don't have to waste a kill and can plan accordingly. I don't see any purpose in this question besides that one. Scum doesn't know if Rels is going to get MK'ed at day end or night end. Hm. I'm not too convinced of that theory by myself but still, I'm letting it here for you guys to discuss.



"Hello guys, I cast my vote but I am fine to not vote my scum read so yeah go ahead".
This is a very weak statement. If you are convinced your vote is scum, you vote. If someone else comes with a better/stronger case that you like more, you vote someone else. But saying "Hey, I don't like him, here's my vote but I only do it because I must" is scum indicative. Any townie can wait until the very deadline to cast his vote. The vote can be used to pressure people. But this is a very open "hey, just parking it here, don't worry, no harsh feelings". Makes no sense at all, and Celestial appeared very reasonable in his long posts, so why suddenly change that behaviour? Afraid of no townie wagon forming?


What a weird post. You repeatedly scumleaned/read scott. But you're not fine to have a scott lynch because "VCA will be useless"? Can you please show me your VCA? Because you imply that a lynch that is not scott would make up for decent VCA.

Also note how at this point, Lunatic has completely dropped under the radar for Celestial, he's not commiting to any more posts regarding scum lunatic.


And boom, joining the mislynch wagon and abandoning the silent vote. Of course, he knows it's town, so he can be "kinda open to being convinced". This part of the sentence is highly interesting. It implies that the decision to lynch mderg is not his own but a decision that someone else made him to take. Also, how do you not want scott to be lynched if you keep saying .



What happened to this? Huh?

On August 06 2016 07:59 silentwarrior wrote:
Ok, so this is basically my big nightpost. I'm pretty sure that rels is gonna get shot, but on the off chance it is me I want to get this all out here. First of all, I am almost certain that both scott and btdt are town. The reason is first that lunatic voted for scott, which basically clears him or atleast gives him a huge town point. On btdt, he voted for Lunatic when the wagon was still early. At that point only 2 people had voted for lunatic. Obv mafia didn't want to kill on of their own if they can help it, which is why I really think he is town. His recent posting and his defense and his determination to go after lunatic should also speak volumes about this. So in short, scott and btdt are town.

Second, I believe the lynch on D4 (D3 lynch will be lunatic no matter what) should be MoosyDoosy. First, he has absolutely nothing in terms of scum hunting. Most of his filter is filled with nothing of value at all. I honestly thought he was joking when he said he was the "sane Moosy". His D2 voting was really suspect as well. His timing was just too good. 30 min before deadline, just when we needed one more vote he shows up and changes vote to someone he town/null read on N1? Also, his whole voting pattern was really stupid, and he still thinks of it as a good thing. The only thing he did was set 2 townies up for mislynch, and if grack hadn't died he would probably have succeded. But tbh, this post isn't about him, if you want more I wrote about Moosy in my N1 post.

Ok, so the main reason I post this is something some of you may not like, and will probably call me tinfoil for saying it. But it needs to be said. First, let me say that I have had suspicoin of this since N1, but have kept silent about it since I was more focused on lunatic at the time and couldn't afford to derail that. I have 3 people in my scumlist in descending order of "scuminess". Lunatic, Moosy and Celestial. The thing that drew me to celestial at first was the fact that he survived N1. It was so strange to be honest. If you compare Stutters and Celestial, he was the obvious person to kill, not stutters. The only reason I can see that stutters was killed was to cast suspicon on the people who were against him. This was primarily me and grack as well I think. The plan obviosly failed when Grac was killed as well, but before that mafia set things up in preparation for stutters death. First, Moosy along with Celestial pulled up that bullshit VCA. Moosy seems like he would go for that sort of thing, but celestial suprised me by actually saying he liked it. What's more, he completely ignored the explanations we had that supported our views, even when it was stutters saying them. Celestial has made the biggest posts with the most analysis, but he barely even bothered to even think about the voting pattern more than a passing "eh, seems alright".




He also had a strong townlean on lunatic for no apparent reason. He did a filterdive of lunatic same time as me, and mentions some the things we now know makes lunatic scum. But he not only ignores some of those, he even makes excuses for them. Worse, he misses some of the huge red flags in lunatics filter, even though it was probably the shortest filter with the most scummy things. And then, when me and 3 others vote for lunatic he comes in and changes his mind? I'm sorry, I just don't believe that. We know mafia tried to bus Lunatic when it looked like he was dying.

Also, in the same big post as quted above, he has the now confirmed townies (Rels, Grack, Kelsier, Silent) as mafia reads, while the ones that are more questionable much higher up. The only townie he has in town is stutters. But thing is, mafia knew he was gonna die that night, so ofcourse he was gonna be high on the list.

I know most of you all see him as town, and it's no doubt that he has posted the most. But I just want to make sure we consider everything. I might be wrong on celestial, and I certainly won't lynch him before Moosy and Lunatic, but I would definetly consider it.

On August 09 2016 08:14 -Celestial- wrote:
That's actually a bit of a surprise. I was convinced it'd be me, BTDT or silent. I'll have a re-read of everyone tomorrow.

Though I'll note that night kill was probably the safest move a scum!scott could make. BTDT and silent both town him (and he needs the support honestly). Me and J Roc been very loudly banging the drum for a scott lynch which would make him look a bit suspicious if either of us died.

That being said NKA absolutely reeks of WIFOM. So I don't place a huge amount of stock into this. Its just interesting to keep in mind.

On August 09 2016 11:58 scott31337 wrote:
Jroc-

Celestial -

Name who you will lynch next after I flip town.

On August 10 2016 06:15 J Roc wrote:



If you arent scum then I prob get lynched next so...

And like you arent even looking at anyone other than me or celest. Also lol at the show up when shit occurs its not even lylo and I was fairly active day 1.

I dont think I am ever lynching celest. If he is scum then WP and GG.

I dont like how BTDT isnt around but I dont think he voted last phase and if he doesnt vote this phase he will get mod killed.

And I still plan on reading silent.

On August 10 2016 06:18 beentheredonethat wrote:
Im im the hospital. Daughter had accident. I concede the game im last scum.

On August 10 2016 06:42 -Celestial- wrote:
On a related note though: scott...what is going on in your head on page 57?