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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 02:15 Damdred wrote: You are in a self confirming spiral Noob. No matter what rels says/does you are interpreting it as scummy Okay, just ONE more Rels post for now, and then I'm done. Promise.  It's almost finished! | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 02:27 raynpelikoneet wrote: there is no single specific argument from him that is cut and clear, everything is just some weird spiral that takes fucking hours to decipher. I feel like everyone of my specific arguments is cut and clear. If there is any one of them that you're having a hard time "deciphering" then just let me know what it is, and I'll make every effort to crystallize it for you. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
Is everyone ready for the GRAND FINALE? I have to admit, I'm pretty excited.  So, I had said this: Obviously, Rels is one of the people that I'll be re-reading before posting the reads list that ruXxar asked me for. And apparently, I'm the ONLY ONE who re-read his filter, or someone else would have caught this. Don't worry though, I'll do everything myself for the rest of this game, if I have to, until the bad guys can't take it anymore and kill me. Here's this post from Rels. I normally trim down quotes to keep things shorter and more focused, and easier to read. But I'll quote it in its entirety, just to maximize the context. On July 25 2015 18:26 Rels wrote: Never said his remarks required thought. I said he had three different subjects in his first post, which means he didn't post immediatly after writing the first one. This was confusing to me. I didn't understand how Rels could tell me that he never said the remarks required thought. If I was under the impression that he HAD told me that, then it probably had to come from somewhere. I had meant to go back and check, but then got distracted by other goings-on, and just happened to run across the answer while re-reading his filter for other reasons. And VOILA, there it was: (again, I apologize for leaving the quote uncut. It's a huge, cluttered mess. But I'm making sure full context is available. The end is the part you want, though. The last post.) On July 24 2015 18:46 Rels wrote: No you don't get it. I'm not saying NocturneMage prepared his post before the game started. I'm saying he thought long and hard before he posted it, instead of being free of mind and posting what he felt. The evidence that he thought long and hard before posting it is the fact that there are 3 different subjects in the post. Then, I'm saying that the fact that he is not free of mind posting his first post may indicate he's mafia. Simple enough? Rels wrote: Never said his remarks required thought. Rels wrote: As you say, each SEPARATE remark is a "off-the-cut instant reaction". vs Rels wrote: I'm not saying NocturneMage prepared his post before the game started. I'm saying he thought long and hard before he posted it, instead of being free of mind and posting what he felt. OOPS. So, ruXxar had tried to tell me stuff like this: ruXxar wrote: Your case on rels is based on a faulty premise. He already explained what he meant by prepared statement, yet you get stuck in details if his original accusation instead of evolving reads from the post where he clarifies his post. Well, I will have NO more of that, sir. Yes, Rels has clarified his posts. And it's gotten him caught in a lie. So either he is a Townie that is a terrible teammate, and due to his pride and ego, refused to admit to a mistake that he had made, and instead lied about it so he wouldn't look bad...or...he is Scum. We can have a discussion about why he lied. But the discussion about WHETHER he lied, is OH-verrrr. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 02:56 Damdred wrote: I vote him third but misspell,his name so on the wagon later rather than third. I think everyone understands you were early on the voting wagon, and isn't counting the misspelling against you. Like you say, you were effectively third, not sixth. Rels was sixth. Which is part of why I find it funny that people want to credit him for getting behind the lynch "early" or criticize me for switching to him "late" when he was the 6th vote and I was the 7th vote. *shrug* | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 03:15 raynpelikoneet wrote: Saying things like this doesn't really help n00bKing, because not only it deduces your credibility because of ad-hom but it is also impossible he is lying here and is town as he has repeatedly discredited your point. Keep things simple. Assume deduces = reduces? If so, then I don't think the fact that he continued to battle back makes it impossible that he's Town. Once he decided to make the lie, he could decide to try and stick with it, because admitting that it was a lie will be seen as suspicious. Like, let's say that he shows up and admits that he contradicted himself, and apologizes for it. You're going to then say it is "impossible" that he's Town, because he kept trying to discredit my point? In that scenario, you're actually motivating him to stick with the lie instead of coming clean, because if he tells the truth now you'll lynch him. See what I mean? You can say I'm overthinking it, but I don't think we should push him into a position where he feels like there is more downside to admitting the truth than continuing to lie. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 03:22 Damdred wrote: I'm actually not referring to you here noob but rather the way moose is reading people differently for the same things and when confronted still uses uneven ways to read people Yes, I know I wasn't involved in the conversation directly. Just making a side comment, that I don't think you need to worry about people accusing you of being late to the wagon. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 03:26 raynpelikoneet wrote: I am giving him credit for getting behind the lynch early because; - he was one of the first (if not the first) people to call out Barakos - whether he voted for him or not at that point is irrelevant, it's relevant that he did nothing to push anyone else's lynch, which mafia normally does fi one of their own is under attack and there is a strong thread presence (like Rels) in the thread. Like, in my opinion, it pretty easy to see that he never even entertains another lynch other than Barakos. If i am wrong here feel free to correct me. I think whether he voted for him or not at that point IS relevant. Because he makes that ONE post casting suspicion on Barakos, but then drops it, long-term, without voting for him. Haven't you ever done that with one of your scum teammates? Call out a post of theirs, not vote for them, and then head in another direction? It looks pretty clear that he entertained other lynches, when Barakos was not the 1st person he voted against, but the 3rd person he voted against. Maybe you could benefit from just reading Rels' filter. It's not short, but it might help you see where I'm coming from (even if you still aren't convinced of Rels being scum by the time you get to the end) | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 03:31 Rels wrote: So what you said: "Rels said his post didn't require thought". "Rels said his post required thought". Is not what happened. The situation is: "Rels said each remarks in his post didn't require thought" (in response to you BTW. The original case does NOT care if each separate remark are cut off thoughts or not) "Rels said his post required thought 'cause there are remarks on three different subjects". I'm going to label this as "Rels having fun with semantics." And I am going to label it as "the 3rd time Rels has been forced to retcon a story, after there being 5 times he has contradicted himself." | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 03:37 MoosyDoosy wrote: n00bKing, I'm reading your filter next but I'm gonna say that I don't feel good about you getting tunneled this hard on Rels. Something that I said might happen and warned you about before too. :/ I don't think "tunneled" means what you think it does. Tough to accuse me of "tunnel vision" when I am continuously giving thoughts on other players besides Rels, and continuously engaging in discussions that have nothing to do with Rels. If there is any player that you aren't sure what I think of them, that's about to be corrected. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 03:38 Rels wrote: LOL Actually that makes me relieved, I'm now sure you're mafia 'cause no way townie behaves like that. (= *eyeroll* Would love to see you try and explain how and why that isn't EXACTLY how a townie behaves. If you paid me 10 bucks to come up with a different reasonable reaction from a Town player, I'm not sure there IS one. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 03:40 raynpelikoneet wrote: If you always do this mafia can lie for whatever reason and you will never find mafia. Townies should never lie, unless they can clearly point out why it's beneficial for the town (see for example fake claims). Okay...and do you feel that Rels has adequately explained how his lie was beneficial for the Town? Because I do not. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
Naw, I'll have my reads out sooner than that. I said I would have them posted so that if blue roles were townreading me, they could know where I stood, as far as who would be good targets for what. And I again cannot guarantee my presence at the deadline, so while I intend to post an epitaph, anything I REALLY want to make sure I get said, needs to be earlier. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 03:52 Rels wrote: Don't have to look very far. Lying about me lying. Ad hominem attacks on me. Accusing me of ad hominem is absurd. I attack your posts. Anything I say about your character can be freely discarded without it weakening my arguments against you one iota. And I am not lying about you lying. You're caught in a lie. And caught badly enough that you had to resort to a third retcon job. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
In descending order from most trusted to least trusted. #1: n00bKing - I haz faith in my PM. I feel like I'm just as Town as it says I am. #2: ruXxar - If I had a button that I could push...and if ruXxar is Town I win the game...and if ruXxar is Scum then I lose the game, am the scapegoat for the loss, and get a 3-game ban...I'm pushing the button. I don't think a townread on ruXxar is very controversial, but I can go into it more if needed. #3: rayn - rayn kinda likes to tell us that he feels like he worked the hardest, for the Barakos lynch. I actually agree with Ticktock that a lot of rayn's filter is short and spammy posts. But even if rayn didn't *work* the hardest for the lynch, he still *pushed* the hardest for the lynch. And the target was Scum. That gives him a lot of leash to work with, in my opinion. I feel like I'll be pretty deep in tinfoil hat territory before I try to make a case on rayn. And although he and I don't always see EVERY matter the same way, we've seen a lot of them the same way, and in cases where we disagree, he *usually* seems inclined to work with me on getting things figured out. (Exception would be his refusal to tell me why he townread Rels during Day 1. I felt like that hindered the Town's win condition.) #4: Damdred - Copycatted one or two of the anti-Barakos arguments, including the one that I least liked. But here again, pushed pretty hard for a lynch on a guy that flipped Red. I have agreed with almost everything he has said during Night 1 except for the Rels topic. Seems generally helpful, and like a guy I could count on to get this thing done, if I were to be killed early. #5: disformation - As mentioned earlier, his filter doesn't read as Townie as I expected it to. There is serious "waffle" to his early game, but it sounds like he already had a reputation for his waffly nature, while playing as Town. Was still on-board with the scum lynch, and while he has several posts that strike me as fuzzy instead of Townie, they don't really strike me as Scummy. #6: Ticktock - As he pointed out, we're on the same page about virtually everything. When I notice a flawed argument and wait for someone to point out the same problem with it that I see, he has done that a time or two. When I ask him a question, he gives me the answer I want to see. And sometimes, when I think about asking him a question, he gives me the answer I want to see before I actually get the question posted. Hated the tarot stuff, but he's been a useful contributor since. Don't mind seeing him get a few answers from the "Town leaders" since no one else was doing it. Think his defense of Barakos would have been awfully bold if he were Scum, in a setup that guarantees either a Cop or Vigilante. #7: Breshke - This guy is in this game, too. In case anyone forgot. Short filter, but the posts that he does have, I'm generally a fan of. #8: Moosy - Hasn't given us much to go on either. Pulled this same "I am Scum and you should lynch me" card in a prior game, where he was Town. Don't know if he would go back to that play as Town for a second game in a row. But don't know that he would go back to that play as Scum either, and just hope that people would read him as Town for it again. (It did very nearly get him lynched last time.) Still null to slightly Town. #9: NocturneMage - Might be a bit higher, if it didn't seem like he can't be paired with either of my highest scumreads. (Hooray for association cases!) Later posts do seem better, but some of the early posts are pretty damn unhelpful. Don't know who mentioned it, but he had a tendency early to just ask people questions about what they thought about someone else's stated opinion. These questions had predictable answers, that would probably be short and not generate much interesting discussion. Asking questions is good. But asking questions like that is bad, because they take up just as much space in your filter (so it looks like you're participating and being inquisitive) but it doesn't actually go anywhere. Happily engages in a worthless discussion about his experience in RL Mafia games, while failing to actually draw conclusions about what is going on. #10: Flexes - Don't tell me that you are currently in the process of writing up your thoughts, and will post it as soon as it is done, and then disappear. Hate this play, but I think it is nearly as bad for a Scum player as it is for a Town player. I do not see much Scum motivation behind this action, so I think he's probably almost as likely to be AFK Town as to be lurking Scum. But if we get rid of him, we obviously are not risking a helpful contributor. #11: Rels - If there's one thing everyone should understand by now, it's why I am scumreading Rels. As I mentioned before, it is my belief that the circumstantial evidence works in Rels' favor. But when I read his POSTS, they ooze scum. #12: Sulfurus - Activity level is basically a perfect match for prior Scum games. First post was strange, and his posts have never improved. In his last scum game, his first post was strange, and his posts never improved. The only post of his that doesn't match his Scum games looks like a lazy mimic from his Town game in Newbie X, when he decided he couldn't figure out how to play Townie without being Townie, so he just does some copy & paste work from a game where he was Town. Reads are bad. Volunteers to offer more information about his reads, if anyone asks for it. People ask for information about his more controversial reads, and he fails to offer more information about some of them, while posting additional info about his read that already matched thread sentiment. Every time the dude posts, I do my best to read with an open mind, and then it just ends up being another strike against him. Some good people for the Doctor to heal: Folks that are high on this list? Some good people for the Vigilante to shoot: Flexes, Sulfurus, mayyybe Moosy Some good people for the Cop to check: Rels, Mage, mayyybe Breshke Rels is a way better Cop check than Vig shot, because if he's actually Town, he could be more help later than I would probably expect from my list of Vig shots. If nothing else, a Town check on Rels at least forces me to view the game from a fresh perspective (if I'm not the night kill). Flexes is excluded from the Cop check list because if the check comes back Town, it doesn't really give us a useful contributor that we know is giving us honest information. It gives an AFK first-time player who might get modkilled. Sulfurus is excluded from the Cop check list because like Moosy said, Sulfurus is probably the Godfather. [This is a joke. I explain that since some people in this thread have trouble identifying jokes.] | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 03:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: You are both arguing about semantics so feel free to point out how what Rels says here is clearly another lie, because i don't really understand it. You seemed to understand what made Rels a liar, in your post at the end of Page 46. You say "Okay, I understand. Rels, please elaborate." Are you telling me that his "explanation" on Page 47 was actually satisfying to you?! Because what else could you possibly expect him to say there, if he's Scum? I would have expected yet another retcon job about what he meant. And that's just what we got. "When I said VT, I didn't actually mean VT, I really just meant Town." "When I said prepared post, I didn't actually mean prepared post, I really just meant that he thought about it a lot before posting it." "When I said that he thought long and hard before making the post, and that it wasn't just instant reactions, I didn't actually mean any of that. I really just meant that although the individual remarks each required no forethought, and were instant reactions, he still thought long and hard before going ahead and making the post, because it covers 3 separate topics." I just don't get how someone reads all of this backtracking and re-wording from Rels, and doesn't have their BS-detector going off like crazy. You find Rels' explanations for how his posts came to say what they SAY (INSTEAD OF what he MEANT) to be reasonable? | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 04:08 raynpelikoneet wrote: i'll be honest i think Rels is town for this: I don't care to elaborate further but he is totally town because he was the only one who gets this. Hmm. I would have assumed that everyone "gets it." | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 04:26 MoosyDoosy wrote: It would be great if n00bKing could look into the associative cases of these three since he’s good at that and stop being tunneled on Rels for a moment. You gonna say stuff like this to me every single game? I have to keep going back to Rels only because no one else is posting any arguments against him where I can be like "Yeah, that." It's not going to keep me from looking at everything else. It's not like I'm so focused on Rels that I can't think about or talk about anything else. I read like 9 filters during this Phase, okay? I'll have my head in the game. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 04:26 disformation wrote: Mh. Got kinda ninjaed by MoosyDoosy, Both his town circle and his PoE list look rather agreeable and is probably something town would avoid to post like this. ? Do you mean scum would avoid posting it, instead of town? Otherwise, I can't figure out that sentence. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 05:18 MoosyDoosy wrote: n00bKing, thoughts about your list after looking at my most recent posts? Yours seems solid and more or less mine although I have people on mine in a slightly different order. Yeah, your most recent posts fall in line with my thoughts better than your earlier posts. I think I have Breshke a little more townie than you do. And I have Ticktock more townie than you do (though you aren't scumreading him super hard or anything). So for the most part, we only sharply disagree on Rels. Much like how Damdred and I most sharply disagree on Rels. I could see bumping you up a Town slot. But it's not that big of a deal either way. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 27 2015 05:27 ruXxar wrote: That would be barakos confirmed scum: Interesting. Well then yeah, Barakos made a really good point about why Mage is suspicious! lol : \ Was Barakos in any trouble yet, at that point? Is it possible he was pushing Mage to make Mage look better if Barakos got lynched? Or was this all too early for that? | ||
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