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Is that answer enough Breshke? :3
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^^ It's a lazy attempt whether scum or newbie is all I can basically say.
Anyway, I'll read through filters. I'll do what I usually do and form a townie circle from reads before working from there.
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On July 24 2015 11:13 MoosyDoosy wrote:
^^ It's a lazy attempt whether scum or newbie is all I can basically say.
Anyway, I'll read through filters. I'll do what I usually do and form a townie circle from reads before working from there.
Oh I was referring to Breshke's argument on ruXxar when I posted this.
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On July 24 2015 11:15 Breshke wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 11:11 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Breshke, your whole argument and post is based off the fact that ruXxar left the thread before you asked your question. Then you seemed to take the chance to jump at the opportunity to say that ruXxar never answered your question when he was never there.
For anyone doubting me, look back. ruXxar stops posting and then Breshke comes in asking a question. From there he makes an argument based off of one question that couldn't be answered because ruXxar wasn't there. Then he draws the conclusion that ruXxar is scum?
I don't know. As n00bKing said, this might be scum trying to take a stance and force an easy lynch off misinformation. I'm never inclined to make a hasty judgment so I won't decide just yet although I'll keep this in mind. I never jumped at ruxxar for not answering my question? If you can quote somewhere i did then that would be great. That wasnt my point at all though, my point was that while ruxxar was in the thread he never put effort into finding out what noobkings alignment was even though noobking was reacting to his "weird" posting style which is what ruxxar said he was trying to do.He then continued being around in the thread not really doing much at all which isnt that abd because it was the start of the game but if you look at it from the context that ruxxar says he was playing weird to get reactions and therefore reads it doesn't make sense.
Have you played with ruXxar before? When he's townie he posts a lot of filler posts although his townie tone is glaringly obvious. He also never makes firm cases and mostly sheeps cases although he sometimes points out things no one else noticed. So it's not uncommon for him to not post alignments and just create conversation with others. It's mostly up to us to start making reads based off the conversation he starts. So he never really makes alignment reads.
Oh, and since you ask:
The last post that ruXxar makes is this about flip flopping.
On July 24 2015 08:53 ruXxar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 08:34 disformation wrote:On July 24 2015 08:18 ruXxar wrote:
Then I will be honored to be in your company.
Draw your pitch fork and stand by my side. Haven't even bothered to figure out where I put my pitchfork yet. But after shadowing a bunch of games where town lost, I believe a bit of scepticism to be very healthy.  On July 24 2015 08:18 ruXxar wrote:
Together we will banish the non-believers known as scum.
Do not betray me or your faith will be sealed.
Stay true to the one belief you must keep in your heart and repeat this mantra in the darkest hours:
I am town. Do I smell a thinly veiled threat? Also currently skimming through your Himalayas for the posts I remember disliking. And I have to say that your play was pretty damn good. Like your interactions with HF for example. There is only a threat if you perceive there to be one. If your soul is pure you have nothing to fear. My himalaya game taught me the importance of consistency, direction, sticking to your story. In a moment of weakness and misjudgement I bound myself to the thought that Losing HF was disastrous.. In the process I lost my genuineness that innocent and honest town spirit, on the warpath to lynch scum. My motivations were laid bare and my association with HF made obvious as remarked by fidei in the obs qt. It's a miracle that we won, and by no effort of my own. If there is one lesson you need to learn if you want to be town read it's to stick to your convictions. The moment you flip flop your town cred sinks to the ocean floor.
Then you ask this question on the same page but 5 posts later (9):
On July 24 2015 09:09 Breshke wrote:
Ruxxar is noobking town or mafia?
Then you make your argument off the fact that ruXxar never answered your question when he clearly left since he hasn’t posted since his last post.
And anyway, even if you expected him to give his alignment reads (which isn't what he really does) why specifically on n00bKing? Care to expand on that?
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On July 24 2015 11:50 Breshke wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 11:24 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 24 2015 11:15 Breshke wrote:On July 24 2015 11:11 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Breshke, your whole argument and post is based off the fact that ruXxar left the thread before you asked your question. Then you seemed to take the chance to jump at the opportunity to say that ruXxar never answered your question when he was never there.
For anyone doubting me, look back. ruXxar stops posting and then Breshke comes in asking a question. From there he makes an argument based off of one question that couldn't be answered because ruXxar wasn't there. Then he draws the conclusion that ruXxar is scum?
I don't know. As n00bKing said, this might be scum trying to take a stance and force an easy lynch off misinformation. I'm never inclined to make a hasty judgment so I won't decide just yet although I'll keep this in mind. I never jumped at ruxxar for not answering my question? If you can quote somewhere i did then that would be great. That wasnt my point at all though, my point was that while ruxxar was in the thread he never put effort into finding out what noobkings alignment was even though noobking was reacting to his "weird" posting style which is what ruxxar said he was trying to do.He then continued being around in the thread not really doing much at all which isnt that abd because it was the start of the game but if you look at it from the context that ruxxar says he was playing weird to get reactions and therefore reads it doesn't make sense. Have you played with ruXxar before? When he's townie he posts a lot of filler posts although his townie tone is glaringly obvious. He also never makes firm cases and mostly sheeps cases although he sometimes points out things no one else noticed. So it's not uncommon for him to not post alignments and just create conversation with others. It's mostly up to us to start making reads based off the conversation he starts. So he never really makes alignment reads. Oh, and since you ask: The last post that ruXxar makes is this about flip flopping. On July 24 2015 08:53 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 08:34 disformation wrote:On July 24 2015 08:18 ruXxar wrote:
Then I will be honored to be in your company.
Draw your pitch fork and stand by my side. Haven't even bothered to figure out where I put my pitchfork yet. But after shadowing a bunch of games where town lost, I believe a bit of scepticism to be very healthy. On July 24 2015 08:18 ruXxar wrote:
Together we will banish the non-believers known as scum.
Do not betray me or your faith will be sealed.
Stay true to the one belief you must keep in your heart and repeat this mantra in the darkest hours:
I am town. Do I smell a thinly veiled threat? Also currently skimming through your Himalayas for the posts I remember disliking. And I have to say that your play was pretty damn good. Like your interactions with HF for example. There is only a threat if you perceive there to be one. If your soul is pure you have nothing to fear. My himalaya game taught me the importance of consistency, direction, sticking to your story. In a moment of weakness and misjudgement I bound myself to the thought that Losing HF was disastrous.. In the process I lost my genuineness that innocent and honest town spirit, on the warpath to lynch scum. My motivations were laid bare and my association with HF made obvious as remarked by fidei in the obs qt. It's a miracle that we won, and by no effort of my own. If there is one lesson you need to learn if you want to be town read it's to stick to your convictions. The moment you flip flop your town cred sinks to the ocean floor. Then you ask this question on the same page but 5 posts later (9): On July 24 2015 09:09 Breshke wrote:
Ruxxar is noobking town or mafia? Then you make your argument off the fact that ruXxar never answered your question when he clearly left since he hasn’t posted since his last post. And anyway, even if you expected him to give his alignment reads (which isn't what he really does) why specifically on n00bKing? Care to expand on that? Ive played with ruxxar twice he was scum both times. How many times have you played with him? The problem is I don't think you can because he said he activly tries to change the way he plays and damdred is right you cant change your meta but meta isnt stuff like you just explained it takes like many many games of playing with someone to really understand their meta, lazy meta reads like you just gave on ruxxar are easy to give and they are just as easy for people to fool you with because what stops ruxxar from not making a case if he is scum just to fool you? Also i never based my read on the fact that ruxxar didnt answer my question show me specifically where you think i did. That question was posed because i was forming my read on him and it was going to help if he answered it. Then damdred asked wtf was up with my questions so i showed what i had. NOWHERE in that post do i base it off of ruxxar not responding. Yes ruxxar didnt give a read on noobking but he had ample time to at least TRY and work it out while he was in the thread instead of doing his poetry stuff. And it is specifically noobking because as i said in the original post ruxxar specifically said he was doing the poetry stuff to get reactions and noobking reacted to the poetry stuff and ruxxar did NOTHING with this reaction.
Yes this makes more sense. Thank you for clearly explaining your thought process.
To address your points.
To be brutally honest, I can honestly see ruXxar not getting any reads off of his poetry spam. If I'm guessing correctly (although you might be right in that he's metagaming really hard), he got townie and was honestly very relieved at that fact and decided to "change things up" with a "trap". In this case it would be his poetry spam. However, (if I'm brutally honest here) ruXxar really isn't the best at reads. He's good at creating conversations but he's not that good at reads. So I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't really been reading into anything and has just been happily freewheeling with his spam.
As a note, I might be a bit biased in this because I did much the same in my last game which was Newbie Mafia XII which you can take a look at.
Either way, I think we can both agree that we'll have to see how ruXxar acts from here on out and judge from there. Which will be easy because I'll be suspecting him hard if he doesn't start posting a shit ton like he normally does. And I'm going to take an especially hard look at him for reasons I stated before.
Thanks for your responses and reactions. They at least gave me some better reads.
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On July 24 2015 18:20 Rels wrote:What the fuck moosy I don't understand you. Breshke's question was very clear and you dodged it multiple times + you didn't even answer it. OK I don't understand the Breshke-moosy stuff from moosy's perspective, so I'm going to be super clear, one step at a time. Let's begin with the beginning. Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 10:15 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 24 2015 10:07 Breshke wrote:On July 24 2015 09:53 Damdred wrote:Initial reads before anything else happens Disinformation and Ruxxor are obviously town to me atm, this is subject to change but tone wise and frequency of posting so far lead me in the general direction of duh they are town. And then my first weird feeling came from this post. On July 24 2015 09:08 Barakos wrote:On July 24 2015 08:47 disformation wrote:On July 24 2015 08:41 ruXxar wrote:
I intentionally attempt to change my meta every game.
The ebb, and flow, the flavor, the topping, the innards.
Sometime it's just a sparkle on top, taking the edge off, a tone shift, an aggressive approach, a preachy approach.
Aggregation of information molded and grinded into the essence of simple axioms I can follow to improve my play and enjoy myself.
You only get as much out of the game as you put into it.
I need to engage in my own way.
Repetition grows stale, experimentation fosters newfound interest and pathways not previously considered.
My #1 goal is to have fun.
In my seeking of that goal I need to be flexible and formless.
Able to adapt and implement ideas, mix new and old, step out of my comfort zone to discover the the trails that do not necessarily lead to victory in the short run, but over time complements my play as a whole.
Fair enough.  Might still take a look later on in the game. *shrugs* Might depend on how much of an easy/hard time I have reading you later I guess. So far only 4/13 players have posted. Bit of shame. Might go to bed soonish since I am having a bit of a headache. -.- Yeah... weather here in germany sucks... I've been feeling like shit the whole day... And then I come to reread and ruxxars style just gives me more headaches. -.- Dunno, what to make of it atm, last time someone used poetry in a game it confused the hell out of me and 2 of the 3 reads I got from it were utter bullshit, so for now, I'll not jump to any conclusions about ruxxar, based on that style, but would really appreciate it, if this changes sometime soon... Kinda strongly dislike rayn for coming in and making an alibi-post, that kinda reads like he won't be here for the rest of the dayphase... let's just hope, that's not the case and there will be more posts from him. Nocturne coming in and asking lots of questions seems kinda active. But a lot of his posts/ questions are targetet at other peoples opinion about the alignment of person x/y/z, without actually giving his own thoughts... Disformation - several posts... mostly about ruxxars other games and the difference in tone, also the only one, who openly likes ruxxars style... What I don't like, is that he defends the "bullshitting" in the start of the game. Granted, it's hard to start a conversation early on and you kind of have to do something, to get the thread going, (and you kinda have to give ruxxar credit for this - he created something, people can talk about) but encouraging him to keep this up the whole game seems kinda off to me. Noobking - totally top town for being able to count, how many people have posted, just to correct disformation! This post just smells off to me, it seems like a lot of information doesn't say a lot doesn't draw many conclussions and gives the thought of doing a lot of things while doing nothing at the same time. Giving him a scum lean even this early Breshke is also a bit odd so far, the questions without other opinions just strikes me a bit funny. Ehh my question to barakos was just making sure he wasnt trying to say rayns thing was scummy. The ruxxar one I am still kind of waiting for a reply. So it starts with this On July 24 2015 07:40 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 07:36 n00bKing wrote:I'll keep posting this at the start of each game, until people actually start following it. From the General Guide on how to play: Don’t babble. If you speak without having a clear goal in mind, you impede the town and decrease everyone else’s productivity. This paralyzes town analysis and decision-making and allows mafia to hide in the chaos Not totally sure that ruXxar is in violation yet. But...it kinda seems like it. He knows that some of us have seen him play as both allegiances already, so I'm not a fan of him making this wild change in his posting style. It could serve as a decent smokescreen. Ah, but my goal is clear and simple. Discussion must flow for alignments to be revealed. When making unorthodox comments you gain traction and arouse thoughts. Am I scum, am I town? As you judge me, I judge you. A dead thread benefits no one. Let your thoughts flow unfiltered and you have nothing to fear. The ye olde play of ill do weird shit to get people to talk about my weird shit then get reads off said people. Except noobking (in a roundabout way but still fairly obvious) that this could be a decent smokescreen for ruxxar infering that he thinks ruxxar is doing this as scum. So ruxxar got what he wanted and someone is talking about his stuff yet when asked to give a read on noobking he dodges it. On July 24 2015 07:54 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 07:41 NocturneMage wrote:On July 24 2015 07:24 disformation wrote:
Hm I would read ruxxars posts so far as NAI.
Not alignment indicative. The poetry stuff could have been preplanned. The tone is all fluff. *shrugs*
But then again, breaking the ice on D1 is kinda hard. xD It would seem like it. I don't know if I should make anything the way he's addressing people, ignoring his poetry, that could come from town or mafia. I'm assuming no ill-will means a town read? or a null read? I can't tell actually. ruxxar is that even a read on noobking? A read from a sentence? What do I analyze, the tone, the cadence, the befriending emoticon? The timing, his motivation, his meta? A sentence says so little yet says so much if you but know what to look for. I will not pass judgement on n00b yet, but you nocturne, you have showed your true colors. The natural curiosity, the spontaneous doubt, your inquisitive nature and your non-hesitation to share with us of your life. I read you clear as a book. Your alignment is town. While saying that there is not enough to read noob off of yet is a fair point. Yet doing the play where he makes weird posts at the start of the game i expect ruxxar to peruse those reads and he doesn't do this with noobking. His only other post directed towards noobking are complaining that he can not read him. I don't see evidence of him trying to work out noobkings alignment from reactions to his openings or other means which I feel is contradictory to the first post i quoted. I think ruxxar is scum Also i would like to add that i think noobkings smokescreen post was really townie because it showed paranoia to me which i feel like is hard to fake as mafia. Ooooh boy this post. This post this post this post. You might be onto something here Damdred. What do you mean with "You might be onto something here Damdred" ? What are your thoughts on ruxxar ?
Because I'm Mafia buddy. What other reason could there be? ~ ~ ~
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^ Exactly. Glad I'm helping already.
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On a different note, I'd like for you not to get so tunneled Rels. Your perseverance is admirable in hunting your prey but you have to calm down a bit.
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On July 24 2015 22:35 ruXxar wrote:
Moosy..
What is this soul-read you have on me?
WIth perfect information comes the ease of covering your lies in pretty words.
I still hate you. Spot spouting poetry shit and get to business you fool. Traps D1 like this are so bad it's ridiculous. It's completely dependent on the Mafia making a slip while people jump on your wagon. In either case, no one is taking you seriously at this point because of your poetry nonsense so you might as well just stop at this point. It's the last few hours we have. Get down to business.
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On July 24 2015 22:47 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 22:46 MoosyDoosy wrote:
On a different note, I'd like for you not to get so tunneled Rels. Your perseverance is admirable in hunting your prey but you have to calm down a bit. Tunneled on who exactly ?
Just in general. An observation about your play from our last Newbie game together. If you look at your filter from it you can see you were tunneled on the wrong people most of the time starting with a tunnel on town!me and ending with a tunnel on town!Kickstart with some others in between. Keep your thought process open.
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On July 24 2015 22:58 NocturneMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 07:54 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 07:41 NocturneMage wrote:On July 24 2015 07:24 disformation wrote:
Hm I would read ruxxars posts so far as NAI.
Not alignment indicative. The poetry stuff could have been preplanned. The tone is all fluff. *shrugs*
But then again, breaking the ice on D1 is kinda hard. xD It would seem like it. I don't know if I should make anything the way he's addressing people, ignoring his poetry, that could come from town or mafia. I'm assuming no ill-will means a town read? or a null read? I can't tell actually. ruxxar is that even a read on noobking? A read from a sentence? What do I analyze, the tone, the cadence, the befriending emoticon? The timing, his motivation, his meta? A sentence says so little yet says so much if you but know what to look for. I will not pass judgement on n00b yet, but you nocturne, you have showed your true colors. The natural curiosity, the spontaneous doubt, your inquisitive nature and your non-hesitation to share with us of your life. I read you clear as a book. Your alignment is town. I'm looking through ruXxar's posts and just ignoring his poetry for now. The poetry alone makes him high, not mafia. My inclination to read him null or slight mafia at best comes from his hesitation in reading noobking and even after later pages he talks to noob but doesn't have a read on him. I can't see a reason for that. He calls him edgy and stiff and this is in spite of saying he's going to engage in his own way. He doesn't seem to be committing to an actual read on n00bking, and mafia need to make up reads, so this appears to me he's trying to do something like that. The response to Breshke makes no sense...."between town and PR" I'm guessing that means power role? If so, why are you suggesting who might be a power role in the open? The inclination to call him town also makes no sense when you are calling him edgy and stiff, terms that might indicate he's not comfortable and therefore mafia.
Have you talked with n00bKing before? He's a good player but when he pressures it feels like a needle is being rammed into your brain as you start desperately backpedaling to get solid footing to defend yourself. Not to mention when you try and engage him in casual conversation he spurns it most of the time and uses it as a foothold to pressure him instead of
But in this game he's been a lot less active and less spiky. I'm not sure if it's because of the reasons he listed before or not so just keep an open mind about him until he starts posting.
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On July 24 2015 21:50 Rels wrote:@Moosy I reread carefully and I think I understand now the situation, so disregard this post: Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 18:20 Rels wrote:What the fuck moosy I don't understand you. Breshke's question was very clear and you dodged it multiple times + you didn't even answer it. OK I don't understand the Breshke-moosy stuff from moosy's perspective, so I'm going to be super clear, one step at a time. Let's begin with the beginning. On July 24 2015 10:15 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 24 2015 10:07 Breshke wrote:On July 24 2015 09:53 Damdred wrote:Initial reads before anything else happens Disinformation and Ruxxor are obviously town to me atm, this is subject to change but tone wise and frequency of posting so far lead me in the general direction of duh they are town. And then my first weird feeling came from this post. On July 24 2015 09:08 Barakos wrote:On July 24 2015 08:47 disformation wrote:On July 24 2015 08:41 ruXxar wrote:
I intentionally attempt to change my meta every game.
The ebb, and flow, the flavor, the topping, the innards.
Sometime it's just a sparkle on top, taking the edge off, a tone shift, an aggressive approach, a preachy approach.
Aggregation of information molded and grinded into the essence of simple axioms I can follow to improve my play and enjoy myself.
You only get as much out of the game as you put into it.
I need to engage in my own way.
Repetition grows stale, experimentation fosters newfound interest and pathways not previously considered.
My #1 goal is to have fun.
In my seeking of that goal I need to be flexible and formless.
Able to adapt and implement ideas, mix new and old, step out of my comfort zone to discover the the trails that do not necessarily lead to victory in the short run, but over time complements my play as a whole.
Fair enough. Might still take a look later on in the game. *shrugs* Might depend on how much of an easy/hard time I have reading you later I guess. So far only 4/13 players have posted. Bit of shame. Might go to bed soonish since I am having a bit of a headache. -.- Yeah... weather here in germany sucks... I've been feeling like shit the whole day... And then I come to reread and ruxxars style just gives me more headaches. -.- Dunno, what to make of it atm, last time someone used poetry in a game it confused the hell out of me and 2 of the 3 reads I got from it were utter bullshit, so for now, I'll not jump to any conclusions about ruxxar, based on that style, but would really appreciate it, if this changes sometime soon... Kinda strongly dislike rayn for coming in and making an alibi-post, that kinda reads like he won't be here for the rest of the dayphase... let's just hope, that's not the case and there will be more posts from him. Nocturne coming in and asking lots of questions seems kinda active. But a lot of his posts/ questions are targetet at other peoples opinion about the alignment of person x/y/z, without actually giving his own thoughts... Disformation - several posts... mostly about ruxxars other games and the difference in tone, also the only one, who openly likes ruxxars style... What I don't like, is that he defends the "bullshitting" in the start of the game. Granted, it's hard to start a conversation early on and you kind of have to do something, to get the thread going, (and you kinda have to give ruxxar credit for this - he created something, people can talk about) but encouraging him to keep this up the whole game seems kinda off to me. Noobking - totally top town for being able to count, how many people have posted, just to correct disformation! This post just smells off to me, it seems like a lot of information doesn't say a lot doesn't draw many conclussions and gives the thought of doing a lot of things while doing nothing at the same time. Giving him a scum lean even this early Breshke is also a bit odd so far, the questions without other opinions just strikes me a bit funny. Ehh my question to barakos was just making sure he wasnt trying to say rayns thing was scummy. The ruxxar one I am still kind of waiting for a reply. So it starts with this On July 24 2015 07:40 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 07:36 n00bKing wrote:I'll keep posting this at the start of each game, until people actually start following it. From the General Guide on how to play: Don’t babble. If you speak without having a clear goal in mind, you impede the town and decrease everyone else’s productivity. This paralyzes town analysis and decision-making and allows mafia to hide in the chaos Not totally sure that ruXxar is in violation yet. But...it kinda seems like it. He knows that some of us have seen him play as both allegiances already, so I'm not a fan of him making this wild change in his posting style. It could serve as a decent smokescreen. Ah, but my goal is clear and simple. Discussion must flow for alignments to be revealed. When making unorthodox comments you gain traction and arouse thoughts. Am I scum, am I town? As you judge me, I judge you. A dead thread benefits no one. Let your thoughts flow unfiltered and you have nothing to fear. The ye olde play of ill do weird shit to get people to talk about my weird shit then get reads off said people. Except noobking (in a roundabout way but still fairly obvious) that this could be a decent smokescreen for ruxxar infering that he thinks ruxxar is doing this as scum. So ruxxar got what he wanted and someone is talking about his stuff yet when asked to give a read on noobking he dodges it.On July 24 2015 07:54 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 07:41 NocturneMage wrote:On July 24 2015 07:24 disformation wrote:
Hm I would read ruxxars posts so far as NAI.
Not alignment indicative. The poetry stuff could have been preplanned. The tone is all fluff. *shrugs*
But then again, breaking the ice on D1 is kinda hard. xD It would seem like it. I don't know if I should make anything the way he's addressing people, ignoring his poetry, that could come from town or mafia. I'm assuming no ill-will means a town read? or a null read? I can't tell actually. ruxxar is that even a read on noobking? A read from a sentence? What do I analyze, the tone, the cadence, the befriending emoticon? The timing, his motivation, his meta? A sentence says so little yet says so much if you but know what to look for. I will not pass judgement on n00b yet, but you nocturne, you have showed your true colors. The natural curiosity, the spontaneous doubt, your inquisitive nature and your non-hesitation to share with us of your life. I read you clear as a book. Your alignment is town. While saying that there is not enough to read noob off of yet is a fair point. Yet doing the play where he makes weird posts at the start of the game i expect ruxxar to peruse those reads and he doesn't do this with noobking. His only other post directed towards noobking are complaining that he can not read him. I don't see evidence of him trying to work out noobkings alignment from reactions to his openings or other means which I feel is contradictory to the first post i quoted. I think ruxxar is scum Also i would like to add that i think noobkings smokescreen post was really townie because it showed paranoia to me which i feel like is hard to fake as mafia. Ooooh boy this post. This post this post this post. You might be onto something here Damdred. What do you mean with "You might be onto something here Damdred" ? What are your thoughts on ruxxar ? I'll explain what I thought the situation was so you can correct me if wrong. Breshke posted a read of ruxxar: Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 10:07 Breshke wrote:On July 24 2015 09:53 Damdred wrote:Initial reads before anything else happens Disinformation and Ruxxor are obviously town to me atm, this is subject to change but tone wise and frequency of posting so far lead me in the general direction of duh they are town. And then my first weird feeling came from this post. On July 24 2015 09:08 Barakos wrote:On July 24 2015 08:47 disformation wrote:On July 24 2015 08:41 ruXxar wrote:
I intentionally attempt to change my meta every game.
The ebb, and flow, the flavor, the topping, the innards.
Sometime it's just a sparkle on top, taking the edge off, a tone shift, an aggressive approach, a preachy approach.
Aggregation of information molded and grinded into the essence of simple axioms I can follow to improve my play and enjoy myself.
You only get as much out of the game as you put into it.
I need to engage in my own way.
Repetition grows stale, experimentation fosters newfound interest and pathways not previously considered.
My #1 goal is to have fun.
In my seeking of that goal I need to be flexible and formless.
Able to adapt and implement ideas, mix new and old, step out of my comfort zone to discover the the trails that do not necessarily lead to victory in the short run, but over time complements my play as a whole.
Fair enough. Might still take a look later on in the game. *shrugs* Might depend on how much of an easy/hard time I have reading you later I guess. So far only 4/13 players have posted. Bit of shame. Might go to bed soonish since I am having a bit of a headache. -.- Yeah... weather here in germany sucks... I've been feeling like shit the whole day... And then I come to reread and ruxxars style just gives me more headaches. -.- Dunno, what to make of it atm, last time someone used poetry in a game it confused the hell out of me and 2 of the 3 reads I got from it were utter bullshit, so for now, I'll not jump to any conclusions about ruxxar, based on that style, but would really appreciate it, if this changes sometime soon... Kinda strongly dislike rayn for coming in and making an alibi-post, that kinda reads like he won't be here for the rest of the dayphase... let's just hope, that's not the case and there will be more posts from him. Nocturne coming in and asking lots of questions seems kinda active. But a lot of his posts/ questions are targetet at other peoples opinion about the alignment of person x/y/z, without actually giving his own thoughts... Disformation - several posts... mostly about ruxxars other games and the difference in tone, also the only one, who openly likes ruxxars style... What I don't like, is that he defends the "bullshitting" in the start of the game. Granted, it's hard to start a conversation early on and you kind of have to do something, to get the thread going, (and you kinda have to give ruxxar credit for this - he created something, people can talk about) but encouraging him to keep this up the whole game seems kinda off to me. Noobking - totally top town for being able to count, how many people have posted, just to correct disformation! This post just smells off to me, it seems like a lot of information doesn't say a lot doesn't draw many conclussions and gives the thought of doing a lot of things while doing nothing at the same time. Giving him a scum lean even this early Breshke is also a bit odd so far, the questions without other opinions just strikes me a bit funny. Ehh my question to barakos was just making sure he wasnt trying to say rayns thing was scummy. The ruxxar one I am still kind of waiting for a reply. So it starts with this On July 24 2015 07:40 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 07:36 n00bKing wrote:I'll keep posting this at the start of each game, until people actually start following it. From the General Guide on how to play: Don’t babble. If you speak without having a clear goal in mind, you impede the town and decrease everyone else’s productivity. This paralyzes town analysis and decision-making and allows mafia to hide in the chaos Not totally sure that ruXxar is in violation yet. But...it kinda seems like it. He knows that some of us have seen him play as both allegiances already, so I'm not a fan of him making this wild change in his posting style. It could serve as a decent smokescreen. Ah, but my goal is clear and simple. Discussion must flow for alignments to be revealed. When making unorthodox comments you gain traction and arouse thoughts. Am I scum, am I town? As you judge me, I judge you. A dead thread benefits no one. Let your thoughts flow unfiltered and you have nothing to fear. The ye olde play of ill do weird shit to get people to talk about my weird shit then get reads off said people. Except noobking (in a roundabout way but still fairly obvious) that this could be a decent smokescreen for ruxxar infering that he thinks ruxxar is doing this as scum. So ruxxar got what he wanted and someone is talking about his stuff yet when asked to give a read on noobking he dodges it.On July 24 2015 07:54 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 07:41 NocturneMage wrote:On July 24 2015 07:24 disformation wrote:
Hm I would read ruxxars posts so far as NAI.
Not alignment indicative. The poetry stuff could have been preplanned. The tone is all fluff. *shrugs*
But then again, breaking the ice on D1 is kinda hard. xD It would seem like it. I don't know if I should make anything the way he's addressing people, ignoring his poetry, that could come from town or mafia. I'm assuming no ill-will means a town read? or a null read? I can't tell actually. ruxxar is that even a read on noobking? A read from a sentence? What do I analyze, the tone, the cadence, the befriending emoticon? The timing, his motivation, his meta? A sentence says so little yet says so much if you but know what to look for. I will not pass judgement on n00b yet, but you nocturne, you have showed your true colors. The natural curiosity, the spontaneous doubt, your inquisitive nature and your non-hesitation to share with us of your life. I read you clear as a book. Your alignment is town. While saying that there is not enough to read noob off of yet is a fair point. Yet doing the play where he makes weird posts at the start of the game i expect ruxxar to peruse those reads and he doesn't do this with noobking. His only other post directed towards noobking are complaining that he can not read him. I don't see evidence of him trying to work out noobkings alignment from reactions to his openings or other means which I feel is contradictory to the first post i quoted. I think ruxxar is scum Also i would like to add that i think noobkings smokescreen post was really townie because it showed paranoia to me which i feel like is hard to fake as mafia. You read the line in bold (see the quote above) and thought Breshke meant ruxxar dodges this post: When in reality, Breshke said ruxxar dodged a question about noobking here: Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 07:54 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 07:41 NocturneMage wrote:On July 24 2015 07:24 disformation wrote:
Hm I would read ruxxars posts so far as NAI.
Not alignment indicative. The poetry stuff could have been preplanned. The tone is all fluff. *shrugs*
But then again, breaking the ice on D1 is kinda hard. xD It would seem like it. I don't know if I should make anything the way he's addressing people, ignoring his poetry, that could come from town or mafia. I'm assuming no ill-will means a town read? or a null read? I can't tell actually. ruxxar is that even a read on noobking? A read from a sentence? What do I analyze, the tone, the cadence, the befriending emoticon? The timing, his motivation, his meta? A sentence says so little yet says so much if you but know what to look for. I will not pass judgement on n00b yet, but you nocturne, you have showed your true colors. The natural curiosity, the spontaneous doubt, your inquisitive nature and your non-hesitation to share with us of your life. I read you clear as a book. Your alignment is town.
Everything is correct except the last point. Breshke was saying that it was weird when ruXxar was posting his weird poetry shit in order to get reads but didn't actually actively draw reads from n00bKing and others who responded to his weird poetry shit.
I said that this could be because ruXxar is a) inept at reads b) is happy freewheeling with his spam c) is Mafia.
I personally think it's a combination of a) and b).
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On July 24 2015 23:05 ruXxar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 22:58 NocturneMage wrote:On July 24 2015 07:54 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 07:41 NocturneMage wrote:On July 24 2015 07:24 disformation wrote:
Hm I would read ruxxars posts so far as NAI.
Not alignment indicative. The poetry stuff could have been preplanned. The tone is all fluff. *shrugs*
But then again, breaking the ice on D1 is kinda hard. xD It would seem like it. I don't know if I should make anything the way he's addressing people, ignoring his poetry, that could come from town or mafia. I'm assuming no ill-will means a town read? or a null read? I can't tell actually. ruxxar is that even a read on noobking? A read from a sentence? What do I analyze, the tone, the cadence, the befriending emoticon? The timing, his motivation, his meta? A sentence says so little yet says so much if you but know what to look for. I will not pass judgement on n00b yet, but you nocturne, you have showed your true colors. The natural curiosity, the spontaneous doubt, your inquisitive nature and your non-hesitation to share with us of your life. I read you clear as a book. Your alignment is town. I'm looking through ruXxar's posts and just ignoring his poetry for now. The poetry alone makes him high, not mafia. My inclination to read him null or slight mafia at best comes from his hesitation in reading noobking and even after later pages he talks to noob but doesn't have a read on him. I can't see a reason for that. He calls him edgy and stiff and this is in spite of saying he's going to engage in his own way. He doesn't seem to be committing to an actual read on n00bking, and mafia need to make up reads, so this appears to me he's trying to do something like that. The response to Breshke makes no sense...."between town and PR" I'm guessing that means power role? If so, why are you suggesting who might be a power role in the open? The inclination to call him town also makes no sense when you are calling him edgy and stiff, terms that might indicate he's not comfortable and therefore mafia. n00bking in his natural incarnation is a shiny dodacahedron. Warmth, amicable talk and jesterly gestures is not his pure town suit. What exactly has changed is yet unbeknownst to me.
Bro, what the fuck is the point of all this spam when all you're going to say is "i don't know" from your reads of the reactions to your spam? You got the reactions you wanted. Multiple conversations have started from those reactions. It's time for you to get down to business, drop the act, start posting reads, and start to help town. Don't you realize? No one is taking your poetry spam seriously anymore and it's already lost its desired effect. So hurry up and do something productive.
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On July 24 2015 23:24 NocturneMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 23:10 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 24 2015 22:58 NocturneMage wrote:On July 24 2015 07:54 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 07:41 NocturneMage wrote:On July 24 2015 07:24 disformation wrote:
Hm I would read ruxxars posts so far as NAI.
Not alignment indicative. The poetry stuff could have been preplanned. The tone is all fluff. *shrugs*
But then again, breaking the ice on D1 is kinda hard. xD It would seem like it. I don't know if I should make anything the way he's addressing people, ignoring his poetry, that could come from town or mafia. I'm assuming no ill-will means a town read? or a null read? I can't tell actually. ruxxar is that even a read on noobking? A read from a sentence? What do I analyze, the tone, the cadence, the befriending emoticon? The timing, his motivation, his meta? A sentence says so little yet says so much if you but know what to look for. I will not pass judgement on n00b yet, but you nocturne, you have showed your true colors. The natural curiosity, the spontaneous doubt, your inquisitive nature and your non-hesitation to share with us of your life. I read you clear as a book. Your alignment is town. I'm looking through ruXxar's posts and just ignoring his poetry for now. The poetry alone makes him high, not mafia. My inclination to read him null or slight mafia at best comes from his hesitation in reading noobking and even after later pages he talks to noob but doesn't have a read on him. I can't see a reason for that. He calls him edgy and stiff and this is in spite of saying he's going to engage in his own way. He doesn't seem to be committing to an actual read on n00bking, and mafia need to make up reads, so this appears to me he's trying to do something like that. The response to Breshke makes no sense...."between town and PR" I'm guessing that means power role? If so, why are you suggesting who might be a power role in the open? The inclination to call him town also makes no sense when you are calling him edgy and stiff, terms that might indicate he's not comfortable and therefore mafia. Have you talked with n00bKing before? He's a good player but when he pressures it feels like a needle is being rammed into your brain as you start desperately backpedaling to get solid footing to defend yourself. Not to mention when you try and engage him in casual conversation he spurns it most of the time and uses it as a foothold to pressure him instead of But in this game he's been a lot less active and less spiky. I'm not sure if it's because of the reasons he listed before or not so just keep an open mind about him until he starts posting. No I haven't. Though I've read a few games I think I'm just going to read people on what I'm seeing in this game alone - people seem to be making references to past games and not sure how helpful that is when apparently some people are changing their play style apparently anyways.
This is a very good idea. Metagaming just starts to make things a lot more complicated than necessary.
It's just that I find n00bKing's slight change in behavior a bit strange because he's a stickler for consistency and I find it hard to believe he'd change his playstyle willingly. Eh, I've played with him in all his past games so I'll try and find his alignment.
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On July 24 2015 23:28 ruXxar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 23:19 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 24 2015 23:05 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 22:58 NocturneMage wrote:On July 24 2015 07:54 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 07:41 NocturneMage wrote:On July 24 2015 07:24 disformation wrote:
Hm I would read ruxxars posts so far as NAI.
Not alignment indicative. The poetry stuff could have been preplanned. The tone is all fluff. *shrugs*
But then again, breaking the ice on D1 is kinda hard. xD It would seem like it. I don't know if I should make anything the way he's addressing people, ignoring his poetry, that could come from town or mafia. I'm assuming no ill-will means a town read? or a null read? I can't tell actually. ruxxar is that even a read on noobking? A read from a sentence? What do I analyze, the tone, the cadence, the befriending emoticon? The timing, his motivation, his meta? A sentence says so little yet says so much if you but know what to look for. I will not pass judgement on n00b yet, but you nocturne, you have showed your true colors. The natural curiosity, the spontaneous doubt, your inquisitive nature and your non-hesitation to share with us of your life. I read you clear as a book. Your alignment is town. I'm looking through ruXxar's posts and just ignoring his poetry for now. The poetry alone makes him high, not mafia. My inclination to read him null or slight mafia at best comes from his hesitation in reading noobking and even after later pages he talks to noob but doesn't have a read on him. I can't see a reason for that. He calls him edgy and stiff and this is in spite of saying he's going to engage in his own way. He doesn't seem to be committing to an actual read on n00bking, and mafia need to make up reads, so this appears to me he's trying to do something like that. The response to Breshke makes no sense...."between town and PR" I'm guessing that means power role? If so, why are you suggesting who might be a power role in the open? The inclination to call him town also makes no sense when you are calling him edgy and stiff, terms that might indicate he's not comfortable and therefore mafia. n00bking in his natural incarnation is a shiny dodacahedron. Warmth, amicable talk and jesterly gestures is not his pure town suit. What exactly has changed is yet unbeknownst to me. Bro, what the fuck is the point of all this spam when all you're going to say is "i don't know" from your reads of the reactions to your spam? You got the reactions you wanted. Multiple conversations have started from those reactions. It's time for you to get down to business, drop the act, start posting reads, and start to help town. Don't you realize? No one is taking your poetry spam seriously anymore and it's already lost its desired effect. So hurry up and do something productive. Town: Disformation. Rels.
Thank you. Mafia reads and neutral reads? Anyone in particular you'd like to point out?
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On July 24 2015 23:42 ruXxar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 23:30 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 24 2015 23:28 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 23:19 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 24 2015 23:05 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 22:58 NocturneMage wrote:On July 24 2015 07:54 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 07:41 NocturneMage wrote:On July 24 2015 07:24 disformation wrote:
Hm I would read ruxxars posts so far as NAI.
Not alignment indicative. The poetry stuff could have been preplanned. The tone is all fluff. *shrugs*
But then again, breaking the ice on D1 is kinda hard. xD It would seem like it. I don't know if I should make anything the way he's addressing people, ignoring his poetry, that could come from town or mafia. I'm assuming no ill-will means a town read? or a null read? I can't tell actually. ruxxar is that even a read on noobking? A read from a sentence? What do I analyze, the tone, the cadence, the befriending emoticon? The timing, his motivation, his meta? A sentence says so little yet says so much if you but know what to look for. I will not pass judgement on n00b yet, but you nocturne, you have showed your true colors. The natural curiosity, the spontaneous doubt, your inquisitive nature and your non-hesitation to share with us of your life. I read you clear as a book. Your alignment is town. I'm looking through ruXxar's posts and just ignoring his poetry for now. The poetry alone makes him high, not mafia. My inclination to read him null or slight mafia at best comes from his hesitation in reading noobking and even after later pages he talks to noob but doesn't have a read on him. I can't see a reason for that. He calls him edgy and stiff and this is in spite of saying he's going to engage in his own way. He doesn't seem to be committing to an actual read on n00bking, and mafia need to make up reads, so this appears to me he's trying to do something like that. The response to Breshke makes no sense...."between town and PR" I'm guessing that means power role? If so, why are you suggesting who might be a power role in the open? The inclination to call him town also makes no sense when you are calling him edgy and stiff, terms that might indicate he's not comfortable and therefore mafia. n00bking in his natural incarnation is a shiny dodacahedron. Warmth, amicable talk and jesterly gestures is not his pure town suit. What exactly has changed is yet unbeknownst to me. Bro, what the fuck is the point of all this spam when all you're going to say is "i don't know" from your reads of the reactions to your spam? You got the reactions you wanted. Multiple conversations have started from those reactions. It's time for you to get down to business, drop the act, start posting reads, and start to help town. Don't you realize? No one is taking your poetry spam seriously anymore and it's already lost its desired effect. So hurry up and do something productive. Town: Disformation. Rels. Thank you. Mafia reads and neutral reads? Anyone in particular you'd like to point out? Damdred: - don't like opening post, forced. - tone read on me, same read he had last game when he was mafia, too certain. Breshke: - Too many words, too emotional, overly-defensive. Moosy: - Explanation of my meta is contrived. - Says my town tone is glaringly obvious yet goes on to say he will suspect me hard.
Lol you want my honest expectations of ruXxar? I think he's a shit player who can't give reads and who makes shitty arguments like this. He tunnels hard as hell and generates way too much spam for him to be worth as a townie. That's my honest interpretation of ruXxar.
HOWEVER
even if he's a shit player the least he can do since he signed up is try and participate rather than spam useless poetry. Which is why I've been pulling his teeth and trying to get him to fucking participate although I doubt he's going to provide anything useful anyway.
As for your argument LOL. The reason why I'm going to take particular care in looking at your posts is because I hold a grudge over your worthless play in our first newbie game together. That's what I mean when I say I will "suspect you hard". It's not that I think that you're Mafia but that I'm going to make sure that if you are Mafia that I'll catch it and make sure you die.
Want me to more brutally honest or does this suffice?
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On July 25 2015 00:52 ruXxar wrote:Also for moosy: You keep dodging rels question. I want an answer: Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 22:40 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 24 2015 18:20 Rels wrote:What the fuck moosy I don't understand you. Breshke's question was very clear and you dodged it multiple times + you didn't even answer it. OK I don't understand the Breshke-moosy stuff from moosy's perspective, so I'm going to be super clear, one step at a time. Let's begin with the beginning. On July 24 2015 10:15 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Ooooh boy this post. This post this post this post. You might be onto something here Damdred. What do you mean with "You might be onto something here Damdred" ? What are your thoughts on ruxxar ? Because I'm Mafia buddy. What other reason could there be? ~ ~ ~
Sure I'll give you an answer.
I read you as slight town lean because you're being as useless as the other newbie game we were in where you were townie.
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If you guys want more of my thoughts on ruXxar please feel free to ask. I can write an essay about this guy's play. I was trying to keep it out of this game but since you guys seem to want it so bad~
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On July 25 2015 01:33 ruXxar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 01:24 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 24 2015 23:42 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 23:30 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 24 2015 23:28 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 23:19 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 24 2015 23:05 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 22:58 NocturneMage wrote:On July 24 2015 07:54 ruXxar wrote:On July 24 2015 07:41 NocturneMage wrote:
[quote]
It would seem like it. I don't know if I should make anything the way he's addressing people, ignoring his poetry, that could come from town or mafia. I'm assuming no ill-will means a town read? or a null read?
I can't tell actually. ruxxar is that even a read on noobking? A read from a sentence? What do I analyze, the tone, the cadence, the befriending emoticon? The timing, his motivation, his meta? A sentence says so little yet says so much if you but know what to look for. I will not pass judgement on n00b yet, but you nocturne, you have showed your true colors. The natural curiosity, the spontaneous doubt, your inquisitive nature and your non-hesitation to share with us of your life. I read you clear as a book. Your alignment is town. I'm looking through ruXxar's posts and just ignoring his poetry for now. The poetry alone makes him high, not mafia. My inclination to read him null or slight mafia at best comes from his hesitation in reading noobking and even after later pages he talks to noob but doesn't have a read on him. I can't see a reason for that. He calls him edgy and stiff and this is in spite of saying he's going to engage in his own way. He doesn't seem to be committing to an actual read on n00bking, and mafia need to make up reads, so this appears to me he's trying to do something like that. The response to Breshke makes no sense...."between town and PR" I'm guessing that means power role? If so, why are you suggesting who might be a power role in the open? The inclination to call him town also makes no sense when you are calling him edgy and stiff, terms that might indicate he's not comfortable and therefore mafia. n00bking in his natural incarnation is a shiny dodacahedron. Warmth, amicable talk and jesterly gestures is not his pure town suit. What exactly has changed is yet unbeknownst to me. Bro, what the fuck is the point of all this spam when all you're going to say is "i don't know" from your reads of the reactions to your spam? You got the reactions you wanted. Multiple conversations have started from those reactions. It's time for you to get down to business, drop the act, start posting reads, and start to help town. Don't you realize? No one is taking your poetry spam seriously anymore and it's already lost its desired effect. So hurry up and do something productive. Town: Disformation. Rels. Thank you. Mafia reads and neutral reads? Anyone in particular you'd like to point out? Damdred: - don't like opening post, forced. - tone read on me, same read he had last game when he was mafia, too certain. Breshke: - Too many words, too emotional, overly-defensive. Moosy: - Explanation of my meta is contrived. - Says my town tone is glaringly obvious yet goes on to say he will suspect me hard. Lol you want my honest expectations of ruXxar? I think he's a shit player who can't give reads and who makes shitty arguments like this. He tunnels hard as hell and generates way too much spam for him to be worth as a townie. That's my honest interpretation of ruXxar. HOWEVER even if he's a shit player the least he can do since he signed up is try and participate rather than spam useless poetry. Which is why I've been pulling his teeth and trying to get him to fucking participate although I doubt he's going to provide anything useful anyway. As for your argument LOL. The reason why I'm going to take particular care in looking at your posts is because I hold a grudge over your worthless play in our first newbie game together. That's what I mean when I say I will "suspect you hard". It's not that I think that you're Mafia but that I'm going to make sure that if you are Mafia that I'll catch it and make sure you die. Want me to more brutally honest or does this suffice? Typical mafia play, attack my person and character in an attempt to diminish the validity of my opinion. Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 01:26 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 25 2015 00:52 ruXxar wrote:Also for moosy: You keep dodging rels question. I want an answer: On July 24 2015 22:40 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 24 2015 18:20 Rels wrote:What the fuck moosy I don't understand you. Breshke's question was very clear and you dodged it multiple times + you didn't even answer it. OK I don't understand the Breshke-moosy stuff from moosy's perspective, so I'm going to be super clear, one step at a time. Let's begin with the beginning. On July 24 2015 10:15 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Ooooh boy this post. This post this post this post. You might be onto something here Damdred. What do you mean with "You might be onto something here Damdred" ? What are your thoughts on ruxxar ? Because I'm Mafia buddy. What other reason could there be? ~ ~ ~ Sure I'll give you an answer. I read you as slight town lean because you're being as useless as the other newbie game we were in where you were townie. Wrong question. I want you to answer this: Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 18:20 Rels wrote:What the fuck moosy I don't understand you. Breshke's question was very clear and you dodged it multiple times + you didn't even answer it. OK I don't understand the Breshke-moosy stuff from moosy's perspective, so I'm going to be super clear, one step at a time. Let's begin with the beginning. On July 24 2015 10:15 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Ooooh boy this post. This post this post this post. You might be onto something here Damdred. What do you mean with " You might be onto something here Damdred" ?
Lol yeah you're shit. You ask for my honest opinion of you then spurn it when you dislike what you hear. Give me more bias buddy. Please disillusion yourself more.
As for your question, Breshke didn't give a clear line of reasoning behind his argument against you which I attempted to make him explain through pressuring. His defense was decent and if you look at the posts between us, it resembled your typical two townie shit fight. So I managed to glean a town read off of that. That line in particular was meant to spark a reaction from Breshke and see what he did.
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I'm surprised you guys haven't noticed. My play revolves around getting town reads and pocketing such townies to form a townie circle to catch Mafia. I've already explained this before.
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EPT
