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On April 24 2015 02:59 Damdred wrote:
I didn't even read your post XD.
teehee
On April 24 2015 03:14 Damdred wrote:
Its ok just lynch me I'm ok with having some town games that really make me wonder about my mafia meta
I do not like Damdred's martyring, what happened? You didn't even read HF's case? Minus points for you.
On April 24 2015 02:44 LightningStrike wrote:
Also I remember Damdred or someone in Slytherin said about OWS is that if he looks townie he's scum. He seems to be townie. Could this mean he's scum this game?
Ls-I know you don't mind doing some past gamemeta research, Do you mind seeing what you could dig up on this - or Onegu, I checked his last mafia and town games and didn't come up with anything beyond "posting more". We need you! Thanks.
Onegu tries again with that obs arguement - Is that all you have?
It's been almost 60 hours now Shining, where are you?
##Vote: The Shining
Lei I expect a reply to my last post, why am I scum?
I could go for a Onegu or Damdred lynch as well.
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
I see people voting for not damdred and giving no reasons why. Please explain?
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Ok, quoting everything takes way too much time.
At EoD1 Scott's scum lists are: BM, Bourn, and Onegu(?)
BM asks, "why do you scumread the people that arent on the townie wagon that got lynched," which applies to BM himself and Onegu. (Bourn voted Cake)
Scott's response was + Show Spoiler +Because both wagons are town. OWS started on Cakepie, and then tried to go on LS and back on Cakepie, but from his posts he has been giving - and trying to start the LS wagon - I'm pretty sure he is town.
You have gone after Trfel and myself and he's my other townread.
HF hasn't done enough and who he replaced didn't do anything either. Tomorrow is a new day to reevaluate.
LS was honest with not liking either wagon (Neither did I) although a throw away vote looks bad.
If you really dig deep, there no scum read. They are all town reads with the exception of BM. For instance, why does OWS avoid Cake wagon from happening an indication that he is town? (I actually think after filtering for quotes, OWS is a scum. His case at the end). Trfel being a town, (Scott explains it later). BM is scum because he is making wrong reads according to him? Not a convincing read. HF is null. LS is town (because he is honest). What about Bourn and Onegu?
I will give him credit for his case on Bourn after his initial EoD1 post.
+ Show Spoiler +So I want to look at Bourneq again, espically with the "incorrect vote". Bourneq thought Trfel was "try harding" with his prewitten post - showing he has suspicions of Trfel? I did not think much of the Trfel post myself, although it did start discussion in the thread, which I like. Bourneq was discussing with Trfel on how he wanted to stir up conversation with BM. Afterwards, BM did the mass claim post. Many people (including myself) jumped on Bill Murray for this and the discussion was diverted, and Bourneq does not return back to Trfel until he says his reads are terrible. He also writes trfel's name TWICE, once in his statement and again for the vote. Could it have been an honest mistake? Possibly, but writing it twice makes me wonder. So I thought I'd do some more digging. What I discovered between the two posts above (From page 17 to page 23) - Cakepie never posts. How did cakepie's reads change when he never posted? Is Bourneq making his change up then? Was he on Trfel intentionally and then attempting to cover his tracks? I'm pretty suspicious of this "honest mistake". It's scummy when his reasoning isn't making sense. I do not know what any of Bourneq's reads are - Cakepie flipped VT - what about Trfel and BM?
However the way he presents his case with a lot of rhetorical questions make it sounds like he discover something new about Bourn's posts after he looked through it again. But this is after he already labeled Bourn as a scum.
His response to my earlier case:
+ Show Spoiler +To answer about TBD once again - He was looking just like the last game he played (Student VII) and I wanted to get him going when he entered the thread. Others had not entered the thread yet and I do know know if they live on the other side of the world and are even awake. I wanted him to do a little more posting, which he did - (It wasn't great, but it was something) so I dropped my vote, it accomplished in my opnion what I wanted it to do, which was get him talking a little more. TBD's position has been modkilled and flipped VT. Does that make sense?
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Question to Scott:
I don't understand what you are trying to say with who-voted-what.
Please explain why OWS and Trfel are your top towns.
And why is Onegu maybe a mafia.
^
To answer -
Trfel has been making strong points, noting things like LS's weird vote, researching filters, and making cases. He is encouraging conversation in I would say a somewhat inactive thread. I'm pretty confident he's town.
OWS has been doing quite the same, although just not as much of a time sink. He points out suspicious thoughts, areas of concern, and is trying to solve the game. .
I think I know Onegu's plan after reading his filter. I'm going to wait until tomorrow on him.
I'll try to find more time for the other posts.
Ok, I get TBD pressure vote and his reasoning. Town read on Trfel, too, I see, but why OWS as town? Yes, he asked many questions but primarily just the questions and no substantial contents after his pressure vote on Cake. (I will come back to OWS). Onegu's plan is next.
+ Show Spoiler +Onegu has not changed much - when I said earlier I thought I knew what his plan was, I thought he was scraping under the radar. Now that we have LS as the Vig, that idea is out the window.
Ok, maybe because I'm a new player but I don't understand what scraping under the radar means. Nontheless, this indicates Scott's scum read on Onegu "has not changed much."
He asks OWS
+ Show Spoiler +I've reread your filter, and although you point in townie directions - I'm not seeing your reads. You said HF was possible scum and rescinded that read - Damd is town? Onegu?
His contentless comment on OWS/Onegu
+ Show Spoiler +I am unsure what to think about the OWS/Onegu "exchange" - although it seems to be running on emotion and they are kind of OMGUS'ing each other. I'll read some of their other games for emotion as well and see if I can find anything relative.
He asks OWS again
+ Show Spoiler +Obi what do you think of HF?
This.. obsession of Scott toward OWS is weird at the least. Bourn points this out too.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2015 06:42 scott31337 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 05:49 Bourneq wrote:
Scott why do you defend OWS at every corner? Everything I see you have written about him I just dont feel is true to any extent. Like this especially "OWS has been doing quite the same, although just not as much of a time sink. He points out suspicious thoughts, areas of concern, and is trying to solve the game. ." I mean it's just not true. I'm not defending OWS at every corner - I just see him more townie then some of the other people here. He just explained his reasoning for his day one vote. He tried to get others to vote on LS after the bad vote, and when he noted it was not going to happen, he let it go. Does his thought process make sense to you? It does to me. Should he be more active? Sure. Everyone should be. Is he trying harder then the lurkers? In my opinion, yes. Like I mentioned before, it seems like we have to pry information from people with a crow bar to make them active. Should we start pressure voting like I did with TBD?
The point at which OWS let go of LS was when he claimed misfired vig. It wasn't a thought process, just an obvious common sense thing to do. Yeah, OWS posts more than some of us, but that alone can't justify Scott's strong town lean on him.
And another so so:
+ Show Spoiler +Onegu did the vote on me and when I showed my post - he never replied or commented on it and left his vote.
He instantly votes Obi when day two starts - I did check the database on his last town and mafia game - Although about 80% of both are one liners, he posts more as one as town and does not get very emotional, even after rayn attempted to make him emotional - and Rayn can go off the deep end. For "meta" - I did not find anything conclusive from my point of view either way.
This is.. ok. I'm not going to force everything Scott says to fit my case, however what happened to your view on Bourn?
+ Show Spoiler +Onegu tries again with that obs arguement - Is that all you have?
It's been almost 60 hours now Shining, where are you?
I could go for a Onegu or Damdred lynch as well.
##Vote: The Shining
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
Lei you need to answer the question i asked earlier. Why did you think bm and scott were mafia together?
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
I also have no idea what you're trying to say in that post but it gives me good vibes for some reason.
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Conclusion:
I still think Scott is a scum. Some of points from my earlier case on him have been cleared i.e. pressure vote on TBD, but his weird association with OWS from N1 to D2 and his lack of follow ups on Bourn are suspicious to me.
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Scott 60 hours? Lol. I mean I'm glad you can math but this is my 2nd post today. You really pushing an "inactive" after I just explained why I haven't been around? And you're pushing on the basis of activity, as if you don't actually only have 6 posts in the last 2 days yourself? 2 of those posts are non committal, nonposts, too. You didn't know what to make of the OWS/One exchange. You checked Onegus meta and nothing conclusive? So 2 posts saying nothing definitive regarding either one, and a request to send our confirmed town out on a meta goose chase, after having analyzed the same player. Noncommittal and should LS say its a scum metaread, he takes the responsibility, not you.
I still don't like your D1 vote, either. The Cake ninja vote was odd. Your scum after were Bourne and Trfel and BM. Two of those also flipped VT. You've apparently abandoned your Bourne read to push me now, which is a bad idea for a town.
##Vote: Scott31337
Let's do this.
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@Holyflare
it's coming. It just takes some time. Sorry.
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Idk who to vote I might be useless this day
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
Vote Count
Damdred (2): HolyFlare, Onegu
Onegu (2): ObiWanShinobi, Bourneq
Holyflare (1): Damdred
The Shining(1): Scott31337
Scott31337(1): The Shining
Not voting(2): LightningStrike, LeiNadk
Currently, Damdred is set to be lynched. Day 2 ends in at 01:00 GMT (+00:00).
Remember, voting is Mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
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So my approach to BM was completely different from Scott.
Early in the game when his ban history was brought up, I looked him up and found out that he'd been around TL Mafia for a long time (regardless of whether he been a good player or not). It also seemed like he've played on other forum mafia as well. I assumed that he is the most experienced player in this game.
What I find interesting is that earlier on he makes these ridiculous moves, such as proposing blue mass claim and throwing around his vote (Trfel -> Onegu -> Bourn -> Scott), but he never got punished for that. People just assumed he was crazy.
This is first vote count:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2015 02:57 Blazinghand wrote:Vote Count cakepie (2): ObiWanShinobi, Damdred scott31337 (2): Bill Murray, Onegu Bill Murray (1): Scott31337 Bourneq (1): Trfel HolyFlare (1): cakepie Not voting (6): TheBloodyDwarf, LightningStrike, LeiNadk, The Shining, Bourneq, HolyFlare Currently, cakepie is set to be lynched. Day 1 ends in at 01:00 GMT (+00:00).
Remember, voting is Mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
Other than Onegu, nobody votes Scott. Wagon starts to build up on Bourne and Cake:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2015 07:07 Blazinghand wrote:Vote Count Bourneq (5): Trfel, The Shining, Damdred, HolyFlare, cakepie cakepie (2): ObiWanShinobi, Bourneq scott31337 (2): Bill Murray, Onegu Bill Murray (1): Scott31337 Not voting (3): prplhz, LightningStrike, LeiNadk Currently, Bourneq is set to be lynched. Day 1 ends in at 01:00 GMT (+00:00).
Remember, voting is Mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2015 09:39 Blazinghand wrote:Vote Count Bourneq (4): Trfel, The Shining, HolyFlare, cakepie cakepie (3): ObiWanShinobi, Bourneq, damd scott31337 (2): Bill Murray, Onegu Bill Murray (1): Scott31337 Not voting (3): prplhz, LightningStrike, LeiNadk Currently, Bourneq is set to be lynched. Day 1 ends in at 01:00 GMT (+00:00).
Remember, voting is Mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
But with my vote and Cake's desperate attempt to live vote, Scott is now under immediate danger of being lynched
+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2015 09:48 LeiNadk wrote:
...never had to read this much in such a short time before...
Vote: scott31337
will explain later with my reads.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2015 09:50 cakepie wrote:Here for EoD. Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 09:20 Bourneq wrote:On April 20 2015 18:42 cakepie wrote:##Vote: plotspotGoodnight LoneMeow, since it doesn't look like anyone else is left around  He seems to really dislike policy voting but does it himself, only to retract it when prplhz replaces. You misinterpret. I was: 1. trying to make a point with that vote re: there are better people to pressure 2. pressure plotspot The prplhz replace reset the situation with a likelihood that replacement will step up and play (although it hasn't really occurred.) Also, it should be clear that I am not a "in real time" player, so any timing or proximity of my posting really holds no weight. Stop trying to read into that. Even my apparently later vote on Bourneq, basically got scooped by other votes while I was drafting. Bourne looks genuine coming in for the EoD, but I know I am town and we're basically in the classic crapshoot I guess. Oh, and looks like people are piling onto me. Maybe it's a confluence of my style, my late start, and the game inactivity, or maybe this game just isn't for me anymore and it was a mistake to come back. I've been trying to do something different than sheep the same ol things in a game where there is really little to work with. I'm dismayed that it's not appreciated, and only seen as blending in or active lurking. If that's going to get me mislynch then, c'est la vie. I don't work fast enough for this, so ##Vote: scottis my best shot atm. Parting thoughts in a bit in case I do get mislynched.
And then, BM doesn't say a word! If he move his vote at this point, he is will be under a heavy suspicion, but at the same time, he can't push for Scott either. Not so luckily, Scott survives and Cake is mislynched.
During N1, BM ever slowly backs off of Scott, so I thought BM and Scott were scum pair, playing a dangerous game to put themselves in a good position. Well now we know, this theory of mine was completely off and BM is a townie..
I hope that adequately explains my thought process.
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On April 24 2015 05:57 Holyflare wrote:
I see people voting for not damdred and giving no reasons why. Please explain?
I wanted to see what would happen first with the Shining. It's getting close to deadline though. I'd rather vote for Onegu over Damdred though.
---
I'll give my thoughts on LeiNadk's "second case" here - I'll big/bold my parts so there isn't confusion like my post with BM.
On April 24 2015 06:43 LeiNadk wrote:Ok, quoting everything takes way too much time. At EoD1 Scott's scum lists are: BM, Bourn, and Onegu(?) BM asks, "why do you scumread the people that arent on the townie wagon that got lynched," which applies to BM himself and Onegu. (Bourn voted Cake) Scott's response was + Show Spoiler +Because both wagons are town. OWS started on Cakepie, and then tried to go on LS and back on Cakepie, but from his posts he has been giving - and trying to start the LS wagon - I'm pretty sure he is town.
You have gone after Trfel and myself and he's my other townread.
HF hasn't done enough and who he replaced didn't do anything either. Tomorrow is a new day to reevaluate.
LS was honest with not liking either wagon (Neither did I) although a throw away vote looks bad. If you really dig deep, there no scum read. They are all town reads with the exception of BM. For instance, why does OWS avoid Cake wagon from happening an indication that he is town? (I actually think after filtering for quotes, OWS is a scum. His case at the end). Trfel being a town, (Scott explains it later). BM is scum because he is making wrong reads according to him? Not a convincing read. HF is null. LS is town (because he is honest). What about Bourn and Onegu? Bourneq looked much better during night one with his interaction with Trfel - but beforehand he had very little content. Since the day has started, he has dropped off again as well as asking about Shining.
I had a feeling Onegu was the vig or cop but I didn't want to out him on it when I posted "I think I know Onegu's plan after reading his filter. I'm going to wait until tomorrow on him." and make it easier for mafia to find our blue roles. LS claimed vig right after the shot and has not been counterclaimed, so there is no cop. There may be a doc though. If it's a vet he'd play just like VT IMOI will give him credit for his case on Bourn after his initial EoD1 post. + Show Spoiler +So I want to look at Bourneq again, espically with the "incorrect vote". Bourneq thought Trfel was "try harding" with his prewitten post - showing he has suspicions of Trfel? I did not think much of the Trfel post myself, although it did start discussion in the thread, which I like. Bourneq was discussing with Trfel on how he wanted to stir up conversation with BM. Afterwards, BM did the mass claim post. Many people (including myself) jumped on Bill Murray for this and the discussion was diverted, and Bourneq does not return back to Trfel until he says his reads are terrible. He also writes trfel's name TWICE, once in his statement and again for the vote. Could it have been an honest mistake? Possibly, but writing it twice makes me wonder. So I thought I'd do some more digging. What I discovered between the two posts above (From page 17 to page 23) - Cakepie never posts. How did cakepie's reads change when he never posted? Is Bourneq making his change up then? Was he on Trfel intentionally and then attempting to cover his tracks? I'm pretty suspicious of this "honest mistake". It's scummy when his reasoning isn't making sense. I do not know what any of Bourneq's reads are - Cakepie flipped VT - what about Trfel and BM? However the way he presents his case with a lot of rhetorical questions make it sounds like he discover something new about Bourn's posts after he looked through it again. But this is after he already labeled Bourn as a scum. Bourneq didn't give any reads or reasoning before the night. I did research on his "mistake" and his excuse did not fit with the information I was able to retrieve. I did not say he was scum, I was portraying my thoughts and his actions were scummy. His response to my earlier case: + Show Spoiler +To answer about TBD once again - He was looking just like the last game he played (Student VII) and I wanted to get him going when he entered the thread. Others had not entered the thread yet and I do know know if they live on the other side of the world and are even awake. I wanted him to do a little more posting, which he did - (It wasn't great, but it was something) so I dropped my vote, it accomplished in my opnion what I wanted it to do, which was get him talking a little more. TBD's position has been modkilled and flipped VT. Does that make sense?
--
Question to Scott:
I don't understand what you are trying to say with who-voted-what.
Please explain why OWS and Trfel are your top towns.
And why is Onegu maybe a mafia.
^
To answer -
Trfel has been making strong points, noting things like LS's weird vote, researching filters, and making cases. He is encouraging conversation in I would say a somewhat inactive thread. I'm pretty confident he's town.
OWS has been doing quite the same, although just not as much of a time sink. He points out suspicious thoughts, areas of concern, and is trying to solve the game. .
I think I know Onegu's plan after reading his filter. I'm going to wait until tomorrow on him.
I'll try to find more time for the other posts. Ok, I get TBD pressure vote and his reasoning. Town read on Trfel, too, I see, but why OWS as town? Yes, he asked many questions but primarily just the questions and no substantial contents after his pressure vote on Cake. (I will come back to OWS). Onegu's plan is next. + Show Spoiler +Onegu has not changed much - when I said earlier I thought I knew what his plan was, I thought he was scraping under the radar. Now that we have LS as the Vig, that idea is out the window. Ok, maybe because I'm a new player but I don't understand what scraping under the radar means. Nontheless, this indicates Scott's scum read on Onegu "has not changed much." He asks OWS + Show Spoiler +I've reread your filter, and although you point in townie directions - I'm not seeing your reads. You said HF was possible scum and rescinded that read - Damd is town? Onegu? His contentless comment on OWS/Onegu + Show Spoiler +I am unsure what to think about the OWS/Onegu "exchange" - although it seems to be running on emotion and they are kind of OMGUS'ing each other. I'll read some of their other games for emotion as well and see if I can find anything relative. He asks OWS again + Show Spoiler +Obi what do you think of HF? This.. obsession of Scott toward OWS is weird at the least. Bourn points this out too. + Show Spoiler +On April 23 2015 06:42 scott31337 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 05:49 Bourneq wrote:
Scott why do you defend OWS at every corner? Everything I see you have written about him I just dont feel is true to any extent. Like this especially "OWS has been doing quite the same, although just not as much of a time sink. He points out suspicious thoughts, areas of concern, and is trying to solve the game. ." I mean it's just not true. I'm not defending OWS at every corner - I just see him more townie then some of the other people here. He just explained his reasoning for his day one vote. He tried to get others to vote on LS after the bad vote, and when he noted it was not going to happen, he let it go. Does his thought process make sense to you? It does to me. Should he be more active? Sure. Everyone should be. Is he trying harder then the lurkers? In my opinion, yes. Like I mentioned before, it seems like we have to pry information from people with a crow bar to make them active. Should we start pressure voting like I did with TBD? The point at which OWS let go of LS was when he claimed misfired vig. It wasn't a thought process, just an obvious common sense thing to do. Yeah, OWS posts more than some of us, but that alone can't justify Scott's strong town lean on him. And another so so: + Show Spoiler +Onegu did the vote on me and when I showed my post - he never replied or commented on it and left his vote.
He instantly votes Obi when day two starts - I did check the database on his last town and mafia game - Although about 80% of both are one liners, he posts more as one as town and does not get very emotional, even after rayn attempted to make him emotional - and Rayn can go off the deep end. For "meta" - I did not find anything conclusive from my point of view either way. This is.. ok. I'm not going to force everything Scott says to fit my case, however what happened to your view on Bourn? + Show Spoiler +Onegu tries again with that obs arguement - Is that all you have?
It's been almost 60 hours now Shining, where are you?
I could go for a Onegu or Damdred lynch as well.
##Vote: The Shining
I'm unsure where you are trying to go with OWS - Do I think he's townier then some of the rest of the folk? Yes. I see a lot of quotes of my posts with Obi and not seeing your conclusion. I'm scum because I'm interacting with my townlean? He also sees my point of view on Onegu, so I want to pick his brain for his thoughts. Everyone here seems to require a crow bar to get anything out of, even our confirmed townie.
You are tunneling me and not seeing the whole picture of the game if you are town. Can you provide reads on the rest of the game?
Here are my thoughts
LS-Nuff Said
OWS-I think I've gone over this plenty
Bourneq and Shining are in the "look towny but activity shit the bed" category
Holyflare-For good points and trying get things accomplished
Leinadk-Tunneling on me and not seeing the whole picture - You believe in your posts though - ?
Damdred-Fell off on Day 2 and his martyr and giving up looks bad.
Onegu-For accomplishing very little, his straight up vote on OWS
##unvote
##Vote: Onegu
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I see your power outage message now Shining, I apologize for it. I've been there before.
I need a few and then let me respond there.
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
Vote Count
Onegu (3): ObiWanShinobi, Bourneq, SCot31337
Damdred (2): HolyFlare, Onegu
Holyflare (1): Damdred
Scott31337(1): The Shining
Not voting(2): LightningStrike, LeiNadk
Currently, Onegu is set to be lynched. Day 2 ends in at 01:00 GMT (+00:00).
Remember, voting is Mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
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On April 24 2015 06:59 The Shining wrote:
Scott 60 hours? Lol. I mean I'm glad you can math but this is my 2nd post today. You really pushing an "inactive" after I just explained why I haven't been around? And you're pushing on the basis of activity, as if you don't actually only have 6 posts in the last 2 days yourself? 2 of those posts are non committal, nonposts, too. You didn't know what to make of the OWS/One exchange. You checked Onegus meta and nothing conclusive? So 2 posts saying nothing definitive regarding either one, and a request to send our confirmed town out on a meta goose chase, after having analyzed the same player. Noncommittal and should LS say its a scum metaread, he takes the responsibility, not you.
I still don't like your D1 vote, either. The Cake ninja vote was odd. Your scum after were Bourne and Trfel and BM. Two of those also flipped VT. You've apparently abandoned your Bourne read to push me now, which is a bad idea for a town.
##Vote: Scott31337
Let's do this.
So if you don't remember what was going on - I got home a little bit beforehand and saw
On April 21 2015 09:58 Blazinghand wrote:Vote Count scott31337 (4): Bill Murray, Onegu, LeiNadk, cakepie cakepie (3):, Bourneq, Damdred, HolyFlare Bourneq (2): Trfel, The Shining Bill Murray (1): Scott31337 Trfel (1): LightningStrike LS (1) OWS Not voting (1): prplhz Currently, SCOTT is set to be lynched. Day 1 ends in at 01:00 GMT (+00:00).
Remember, voting is Mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
note: the previous vote count has been edited for clarity
I was leading in votes and I know I'm town and I'm going to save myself to take my vote off of BM which obviously was not going to happen. Wouldn't you do the same?
A lot of your reply is also in my post above as well when I responded to LeiNadk's case.
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
I think my reads are pretty good so far. Liking these newbies. Lei i really like your answer, scott has pretty similar reads to me.
Shining i really dislike how you call out scott for having no srance on onegu/obi but have done absolutely nothing towards that yourself. Your vote is pretty much a throwaway at this point since we should be voting some form of onegu/damd. I still have no idea why nobody is really voting for Damdred. Scott you just said you'd wait on damdred and he did nothing and you voted onegu?
Damdred has fallen apart. I called him mafia he omgus voted for me and didn't even read my post and then just complains about not being motivated and afking waiting to see who he can put a vote on. This is the guy that was voted best up and coming player who regularly makes cases that find scum. He hasn't even gone back and read filters to evaluate if his reads are right or wrong or anything and instead sticks to his poe list despite having loads of other null people and his poe list even contained people he said had good posts (lei)
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Huh, Scott your reason for TR OWS is because he was the first to to vote for the cakepie lynch? Really thats all you got for TR him so hard? I am looking at your filter for TR him and thats really what you got...
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EPT
