[T] Jack of All Trades Mafia
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
I am sorry I'm late, but the game starts at 4:30 am in my time-zone. I'm not inclined to be an early riser and in any case for professional reasons that isn't an option. My work requires me to be rested during the day. So first off, before I post anything more substantive, I have a comment about the device. I see a very rapid bandwagon towards pressing it, which I don't really understand very well. The device is unknown and we have no idea what it's impact on the game will be, or whom it will favour. Most of the 'reasoning' I've seen for pressing it can be summarized as 'YOLO' or 'don't be pansy' and similar emotive appeals rather than any concrete reason. One sensible voice pointed out we should guard it until we are behind or doing badly and then press, but he didn't seem to be too invested in the whole issue and didn't pursue it much. He's dead right though; the device randomizes the game, and because town is majority, that itself makes it town favoured. The way we extract an advantage from the device is to gain the ability to randomize the game when it's going badly, not by just saying 'YOLO' and pressing a button, and I'm mildly suspicious of those who started this "PRESS" bandwagon. I really can't overstate the importance of this, and I really want a discussion of this issue and/or responses to it. I'm not attempting to deflect discussion away from the shot, and I'll comment on that in a bit, but this is an important issue and that's why I've dedicated a separate post to it. There is literally no reason not to vote GUARD on the device and I want those who are currently voting PRESS to explain their logic if any. | ||
AT.Epiphany
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On March 03 2015 10:12 Tubesock wrote: I like FF, HtS, and Rsoultin. It's wise to not town me just for being able to count. The rest I just need to see more. I don't really scum anyone at the moment. The only one I'm somewhat questioning is Slam and only because in some game awhile ago Koshi said that town slam makes no sense, while scum slam is coherent and slam is pretty coherent this game. But I liked his evolution of my idea. (his seemingly reluctant acceptance of it anyway). So your reasoning is that he sounds coherent and therefore he is scum because someone else said he's incoherent when he's town? If he's capable of being coherent, I can't see why he wouldn't be coherent when he's town. I'm also unsure why you aren't venturing any opinion or read of your own, but relying on some comment someone made on some other occasion? | ||
AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 03 2015 13:26 geript wrote: Holy shitpants of saying nothing. This guys is another good kill. Do you actually care to respond? I said a lot of valuable stuff and your attempt to dis it just portrays you as scum. Respond if you have any meaningful response? Also, if you could bother to read, I said I am separately commenting on the shot. | ||
AT.Epiphany
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On March 03 2015 13:35 geript wrote: Sure, you've talked about nothing of any sort of consequence in like the least meaningful way possible. Like there's nothing of any worth talking about there. We have ~18 hours until someone is going to get shot and you're worried about talking about something that nobody knows what the fuck it does. I will be happy to shoot you if this continues. Ok, so here's the thing, I've explained why it's of consequence. It gives Town (which I'm now doubting you are) a chance to come back if we're behind. That absolutely is of consequence. If you think not, please tell me why. Secondly, none of this is mutually exclusive with scum-hunting, which I said I would be posting on. Your attempt to get the device pressed and to avoid discussion of the topic is very scummy, because the device is unknown and hence chaotic, thereby favouring the scum. As Town we want the chaos only if/when we are losing. Of course you will be happy to shoot me. I am Town, I'm being constructive, and judging by this reaction as well your really suspicious plans and reasoning about how to decide a shot makes me very suspicious of you. Also, I am just as capable of shooting you, so that's an unproductive threat. | ||
AT.Epiphany
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On March 03 2015 13:51 geript wrote: Ok, so how do you know that it gives Town a chance to come back? How do you know that it doesn't just give mafia uber roles. From helping GreyMist with his upcoming game I have an idea of what it might be, but it's a semi-guess related to pregame. But I can assure you that it's either really, really bad if it's one of them or it's completely fucking random or it's really really bad. Regarding the device you're a fucking idiot if you want to keep talking about this shit. Because you know where this big pile of unknown is going to end us up at? Because I do. It ends up at not talking about HtS and me not being able to read her town games because I'm either talking to a dumbass or mafia. It ends up not talking about how Koshi is essentially repeating 2 of his previous mafia games. It ends us up not talking about how Rayn isn't gaming the system or coming up with some weird plan, or him reading Slam the same way as last game at almost an earlier point than he did that game AND WHERE SLAM WAS MAFIA, or with him not really talking about how Koshi's bully system (lynch any misshot on D2 regardless) is awful. It ends up with us not talking about LS who Damdred finds interesting. So basically it ends up with us not talking about actually important subjects. So motherfucker. What do you think about those actually important subjects which you have totally ignored? You seem to have skimmed along but don't even remember who was talking about what. Why? Why aren't you interested in who you're going to shoot or who you want to shot instead of this bullshit? How can you possibly think that I can even be mafia here? Are you like a complete noob or just terrible? Okay, I'm going to try and behave for now despite you acting like a prick. Don't test it though. Alright, I'll explain it so a Neanderthal can get it. Device is random. Possibility 1: We are losing and mafia gets uber roles. No harm, we were lost anyway. Possibility 2: We are losing and it helps Town. We gain something we wouldn't otherwise. Possibility 3: We just "PRESS" now (which is what I'm trying to stop). YOU claim the device is "either random or really bad", and therefore us pressing the device is a bad decision according to your own fucking Neanderthal logic. If you're being consistent WHY AREN'T YOU ARGUING AGAINST PRESSING THE DEVICE THAT YOU CLAIM IS SO BAD? What is more this decision matrix should be really obvious if you think about it for longer than 10 seconds, which is why just agreeing to guard will not waste time UNLESS you try and divert the issue by starting meaningless personal attacks and abusive behaviour. | ||
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On March 03 2015 13:53 Damdred wrote: Theres really not much of a bandwagon to press it at this point honestly, i'm not sure even how many of us have messaged the host. I haven't as of yet. And geript is right though you are making a really wordy post without commenting on a lot of the other scum hunting that's going on in the thread Damdred, I already said I would be posting in depth on those issues as well. This is not mutually exclusive but what I'm really trying to drill into people's heads is that this device does matter, and I've posted below in a response to Geript as to why it does. | ||
AT.Epiphany
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AT.Epiphany
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On March 03 2015 13:59 Damdred wrote: ....we aren't even interested in talking about t device, fuck the device we are scum hunting to figure out a shot. I will yolo shoot you so please actually contribute now that you got that out of your system You should be, I've scum-read you as well now, because you insta-voted PRESS and are trying to avoid discussion. You are most likely scum as well, and I am just as willing to shoot you. Stop threatening the newbie. I ain't backing down to this behaviour. | ||
AT.Epiphany
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Every single time he's been Mafia he's far more aggressive and confrontational than he is as Town. Moreover his mafia games have him rapidly suggesting lynch targets and putting out scumpiles pretty quickly. As a mafia (and not as a Town) he invariably pushes multiple targets and acts aggressively. Here as well, he started pushing Koshi and the moment I made my post, his first reaction (even though I said I'm posting on shots as a follow-up) was to scumread me because my post was filler. It isn't filler, the first person to post after me recognized as such, and geript has gambled on being aggressive and unpleasant thinking that people will agree with him because I am new to this forum. Look at his main contribution in the thread. 1) He's tried to normalize the idea that there's no point in trying to reach a consensus on a shot because somebody will shoot anyway. What he's really trying to push though, is the idea that it's normal and ok for everyone to take a shot at 24 hrs and the reason he's doing this is because he doesn't want anybody to gain any information from the shot, which is why he's trying to press the line that there's no point reaching a consensus and then lynching anyone who breaks the consensus. 2) He's then tried to press the nonsensical idea of trying to hunt/lynch the 3P although that makes very little sense for reasons that have already been pointed out. 3) He tries to establish credibility by saying "these are the people I'm ok taking a shot". That doesn't prove anything though, especially since at this point he's done nothing useful except to try and debunk our most useful way of gaining information, which is to try and shoot the guy with the most votes. 4) He's been the one to try and turn the thread into a fight by abusing me (a fight he calculated he'll win because no one here knows me). | ||
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AT.Epiphany
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On March 03 2015 15:07 geript wrote: Ok so let's talk meta. Every single time I've been mafia I've been far more confrontational? What games ahve I been mafia in? Have I never as town pushed multiple lynch targets at the same time? Like your meta of me is really, really fucking off. Explain your shit or die. Becuase I'm not going to get fucking mislynched again because some fucking scrub from some fucking scrubass site comes into my house and tries to lynch me. SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU SHITFACE. I'm not going to take being insulted by you just because I'm new to a site. You better behave with respect you prick. You started absuing me from the first post, and I'm not gonna stand and take it. The forum doesn't belong to you. | ||
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On March 03 2015 15:10 Breshke wrote: 1) He suggested we nominate someone to shoot so i don't think that he is trying to avoid us lynching a consensus 2) He then later stated that he ment he doesn't care if we shoot mafia or 3p 3)Isn't trying to debunk any plan useful as it can show any weakpoints it has? Yes it could be frustrating but yeah. 4) I dont think this is true. Yeah vets seem to listen to other vets more than newbies but with geript gunning for some of them (rayn for example) how do you think he can count on them to back him? You say you are a newbie here yet you seem to think you know geripts meta fairly well which doesn't really add up. Also I don't like that you promised to talk about the shot before damdred started going hard against you which led me to believe you had thoughts on people other than him yet what you have posted is mostly from after you said you would give thoughts which leads me to believe you had nothing at the time yet you got angry at geript for not waiting for you to post. Im not sure if im making sense or not but if you could give reads on other people that would probably help. I spent the last 40 minutes combing the database for Geript's games. I'm new here it doesn't make me stupid. I'll respond to the rest after I've cooled down a bit, because Geript's abuse has rubbed me the wrong way. | ||
AT.Epiphany
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On March 03 2015 15:15 geript wrote: 1)How in the fuck am I even trying to normalize the idea of someone shooting at 24 hours? It's not like that's a new idea or unique to me. I'm also not trying to "make it okay" for anyone to shoot, a point which you bring up but dismiss out of hand. 2)I never said we should hunt the 3P. I said I'd prefer to lynch 3P than mafia on D1. Like that's really fucking obvious. Second, anyone who believes that a mafia shot over a 3P shot is preferable is a fucking retard and doesn't know how games like this go. Hell Toad's argument is literally, "Well in one game mafia were retarded enough to spend 3 kp on me." Yet in more games assassins/ninja's/dueling3P roles tend to fuck up town far more than help. Plus, with instant 2 shot KP on 2 different people, we can have exceptionally dangerous lynch situations ala Demon's run where Kita's shots threw shit all out of whack. 3. That's not even the point of having a list of people who I'm ok with being the shooter. The whole point is to have a town controlled shot and hold anyone not on that list uber responsible for their shit. Getting into a universally townread circle while still having to explain the shot is significantly harder than any of this "let's pretend it's a lynch" bullshit that most people will just fucking ignore. 4) There's no fight here. I'm a big boy and you're still wearing pullups. If you're town, then maybe you'd be able to realize why I'm town. Probably not by how you're talking. 1. You really were trying to make it okay to shoot. In fact, you've declared that's what you're going to do regardless. 2. You said "we should try to kill the 3P". Unless you have a way of doing so without finding them, yes you did argue for hunting them. 3. Let's pretend it's a lynch is close to "town controlled" than you making up your pseudo-version of who you think the town is and then giving them license to shoot. That model works much better for the mafia because they have perfect information and are much more likely to get a free kill with no risk. 4. This is exactly how you behaved in one of those games you were mafia. "I am the best player here" were your words in that game. You can get lost with your big boy rubbish, I'm not kow-towing to you so FO. | ||
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On March 03 2015 15:18 geript wrote: Not me. Dude thinks he can walk in here and meta me all wrong. Like I don't think most of my scumgames even show up any more. Like he doesn't even take context of the thread into account at all. IDK man, dude walked in with a stick up his ass. You were the one who started abusing me for literally no reason. Imagine how you behave if I was the one who started the abuse? | ||
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On March 03 2015 16:24 Tubesock wrote: I think Geript is moving the thread forward and critically thinking. To me it's more towny to say my vote idea is stupid and point out holes in it. Wouldn't that freak you out if everyone just blindly said "great idea! Let's do it!!"? There is value in playing devils advocate. I do agree with you Epiphany that he is being a meanie face to you. Now, toughen up, he's an asshole, so what? 1) I took from his objection is that we vote for someone to do the shooting and it could happen well after the deadline to be able to shoot. There is value in extending the day past just 24 hours. He seems to believe the players here won't just yolo shoot someone. Personally, I think some town is going to yolo and shoot another town. Hence, my idea. 2) He explained that in a perfect world it is better to shoot 3P instead of mafia today. Which i think is true, you get rid of 2 non towns. Easier to PoE. He also said hunting 3P is the same as Mafia, so no real difference. 3) These are reads, and towns are supposed to give reads. 4) uhhhh he and like pretty much everyone else in the thread thinks that talking about the device is worthless at the moment. Geript's actually argued that someone will surely shoot no matter what. I agree with you that somebody is going to shoot, no matter what. The thing Geript has opposed though is the idea of the town taking control of the shot and lynching the shooter if he misses. What I think is ideal is: Town decides who to shoot. If anyone shoots someone else, shoot them. This was the original suggestion. What Geript suggests is a combination of two things. 1) Geript shoots because he has "amazing townreads" according to himself (which is obviously not helpful if he is Mafia) 2) We nominate somebody to take a shot. Here's why the suggestion original suggestion is better than Geript's suggestions: Under Geript's model an individual gets to make a choice, with no accountability for this. This means that if the individual selected is innocent, that's no better or worse than the town taking a call on whom to shoot unless the individual is neccesarily better informed. If the individual selected is mafia, they basically get a confirmed free kill. An individual making a free call is strictly worse here. Note however, that the original model works well only if the two reaches a consensus on whom to shoot, and that players breaking the arrangement will be lynched. Geript argued that a town will disregard that and/or a mafia would shoot and WIFOM. The critical part is that Geript's reasoning is driving the thread towards a point where there won't be any consensus and then anybody can take a shot (which Mafia will) and not get lynched for shooting Town. Another crucial point, Geript's reasoning was that if a town is about to be shot under a consensus agreement, he will shoot someone else reasoning that it's better because he knows 100% he's innocent (FecalFeast also endorsed this). If you look a bit deeper though, if we have a 'lynch the shooter' policy, a Townie about to be shot should let himself be shot, because he's risking 3 Town deaths instead of one by randomly shooting into the crowd. That's not something a townie would do. We need to agree on the plan itself and not just on whom to shoot and Geript is forcing consensus away from this plan. The Mafia are favoured by any situation where there is no consensus on who is going to be shot and how that will be done. This is why he is trying to channel discussion away from this. | ||
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On March 03 2015 17:04 Mocsta wrote: Worst post in the game by far. Doing a turbo read, and this thought certainly never entertained my thought process. translation You do realize I DID start calling out people, and what I did was the literal opposite of blending in? | ||
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On March 03 2015 17:10 Mocsta wrote: Second worst post of the game. I must have won the lottery Of all posts to reply to, this fixation is odd? Perhaps they know each other, Slam is a scum buddy, or <insert other> (1) This is a nitpick statement (in line with this first post) that makes no attempt to harness information from Tubesock. (2) AT.Epiphany makes no attempt to call TS town or scum (yet calls out TS for not venturing a self-justified read) Classic contradiction. translation If you're actually town, you're not only an asshole, but you're an idiot, because you're spectacularly wrong. GJ jumping on a bash the newbie wagon if you're scum. | ||
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On March 03 2015 17:16 raynpelikoneet wrote: AT.Epiphany instead of throwing in the newbie card how about you explain how this is wrong instead? because that's what you are arguing for without saying why Mocsta is wrong here. First off, I'm not throwing the newbie card, literally Mocsta's entire post is about making fun of me being a newbie in his faux 'translation', so stop faking that accusation. Secondly, I'm not sure if he's scum or not, (which is why I didn't accuse him) but it does seem strange to me argue that Slam is scum because he is coherent. If he's capable of being coherent, there's no reason why he wouldn't be so as town and moreover what I objected to was that the only reasoning tubesock provided was "kochi said so this some other game" which is a very strange reason. | ||
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On March 03 2015 17:16 raynpelikoneet wrote: AT.Epiphany instead of throwing in the newbie card how about you explain how this is wrong instead? because that's what you are arguing for without saying why Mocsta is wrong here. Also, really, you try playing properly when every post about you is a moronic personal attack by people jumping on a bandwagon.... | ||
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On March 03 2015 17:22 geript wrote: Can Epiphany please tell me more about how I'm trying to steer conversation away from who needs to die? I Could use another good laugh. I line your point on HtS. That's a really interesting read. Wrong. But interesting. Stop misquoting. The problem is ALL you're talking about is who needs to die, not how that decision gets made, and the latter is very relevant in this lynch set-up. | ||
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On March 03 2015 17:24 Mocsta wrote: Lets talk some more. It appears you are pouncing on the logic of others without considering your read on either player?? Tell me 2 tentative things: (1) Read on koshi (2) Read on Slam I am not looking for concrete justification. A lean will do. Ok the read on Slam is easier, and my read on him is that he's Town. His post on the lynching method is accurate and correctly outlines what town ought to be doing. He's working towards a plan that has been entirely derailed by this shitstorm. The read on Koshi's much tougher because he's said/done very little and I don't know him well enough to be able to interpret that very well. I'm leaning towards Townie, partly because he strongly wants to lynch vigilante shooters who get it wrong and partly because I don't think he'd be that open about non-participating if he was Mafia. I know WIFOM, but no one really buys WIFOM defenses and he's put himself right in front of the spotlight. | ||
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On March 03 2015 17:30 raynpelikoneet wrote: No it's not. All we need to talk about is who needs to die, the "how" is already decided. What was decided by the way? | ||
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On March 03 2015 17:37 Mocsta wrote: i'm going to drop you for now basis (1) I don't find this conversation (or Geripts productive) Seems at the moment that this is more philosphical debates on how to play mafia vs. actaul mafia interference (2) If you did find Slam + Koshi town. it would be natural to assume people attacking them are not. (3) BH is in this game Continuing the chat I have to take a dump. But next on my list is Breche + Sepultura. THoughts? I lean towards townreading Breske because again right from the start he's proposing a plan that is constructive and is the right decision for town in this phase. I realize this is moving again towards this 'philosophical' issue of how to pick a lynch, but this is the least chaotic, most well-defined of making the decision, so I'm very likely to townread the people who initially pushed this idea. Sepulchre I mostly scumread for the converse reason. He's the first to try and consciously steer this discussion away from plans (in a set-up where there is a great deal of point to at least to discussing a plan). Also, I'm slightly suspicious of just how many people he points a finger at, without town-reading anyone. I also don't understand his critique of the fact that 'the plan' seems to be accepted (it was being favourably at the time he posted). That's not a very confident read though and it's entirely possible that he really does believe all the planning is a waste of time and somebody will randomly shoot anyway. | ||
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On March 03 2015 17:49 Mocsta wrote: I like Sepulchre after a second read. To the point. Sort of witty. Even prompted me to read into OWS, of which I like the direction. Fully agree with the assessment of: Its the whole passive aggressive feel YET lack of implication in the post. Like a chihuahua hiding behind a fence. barking through a megaphone. And I agree, I liked his post the moment I read it because he wrote one detailed post, very well. It just indicates he's probably good, but that's not more likely to make me townread him. It's well written and witty, but I'm still leaning scum. | ||
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On March 03 2015 18:50 raynpelikoneet wrote: I am not sure i buy this explanation. So your conclusion (yes, in the post where you originally posted your comment i talked about it WAS a conclusion of yours) is that he, as town, for some reason should scumread people who scumread his town reads. I have absolutely no idea how you end up on this conclusion because it is a narrative YOU invented for him and nothing in his play implicates he should think this way. I agree with what you write, though I don't really have any conclusion coming out of it. I don't think that disagreeing with me about somebody being town makes them suspicious in my eyes. By the way, I didn't even see that as a "narrative he invented for me", but simply as what was natural to his thought process, I might have disagreed with him about it on another day, but I've had enough hostility on me without quibbling with him about what approach is natural. He posted that under 'basis' so I took that to be his thought process about whom he tends to suspect rather than him creating a narrative for me. | ||
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On March 03 2015 20:24 raynpelikoneet wrote: For the record i wanna press the device to see what happens, now when if it's a bad thing it doesn't fucking kill us outright. sandroba suggesting this: is scummyscummyscum..... The only correct way to do this is either figure out what pressing the device does NOW, or destroy it immediately. I was just about to post, I do think sandrobras may be scum, but he is theoretically right here. I sense no one's going to listen to me about the damn device, so I'll shut up about it after this post, but if you just think about it, if you have a chance to insert a totally random unknown effect into any game, it stands to reason that whenever you're losing anyway is a good time to do it. By the way, really not pushing the device discussion, but why does that comment make him scummy? Also, the reason I think he may be scum is first of all a low content, but more interestingly that when discussing the "shoot as lynch" policy, he was incredibly unwilling to commit and basically flip-flopped around saying we can do this, or we can do that while leaving his phraseology so ambiguous that it could be interpreted as either. | ||
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On March 03 2015 20:44 raynpelikoneet wrote: The reason is as far as the game is going on you are never "already lost". In LYLO you do not want ANYTHING that could possibly give mafia KP or fuck up the lynch. You just want the townies to lynch mafia. Therefore, as i said, the only correct plays regarding the device are: 1) figure out what it does now, and then decide what to do with it or if it's worth keeping around at all 2) ignore it, accept it doesn't need to be in the game and destroy it Keeping it around and not doing anything with it isn't an option because at some point it might become a liability to the town. Ok. That's a fair enough argument, but it would have helped if you or someone else made this a while ago rather than simply suppressing the debate. I think the town can be in a situation desperate enough before it's actually LYLO, but at least I can see now what your point is, so I'll leave this issue. | ||
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On March 03 2015 20:42 Mocsta wrote: I posted as I read the thread. I genuinely thought his first two posts were scummy. However, he has an influx of posts on the proceeding pages that: A - Do not move the thread forward B - Heavily argue his theory on how the game should be play (akin to yourself right now) Clearly, someone could make a case on him saying he is posting useless content for the sake of it... however, i think he is a butthurt over-zealous individual, as opposed to someone maliciously posting in the thread to destroy town atmosphere/blend in. This makes him a low priority for my evaluation day 1. Frankly, I am surprised you haven't question Epiphany regarding his town read of Koshi. Seriously, arguing how I think we should proceed does move the thread forward. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on whether you agree with the direction I'm advocating, but it's a genuine and entirely logical argument on what we should do. You'll also notice I've abandoned that line and focused a lot on scumhunting, once it's become abundantly clear that people aren't going to follow that plan, and hence there is no value to my continuing to advocate that line of action. Secondly, if you find my town read of Koshi suspicious, why not question me yourself instead of asking Rayn to do it? As for me being butt-hurt and zealous, I suspect you would react the same way if some guy starts abusing you the way geript was. I'm not going to apologize for that, and if he starts again, I'll continue to give as good as I get. | ||
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On March 03 2015 21:19 Koshi wrote: No questions for Koshixxx? Okay, I'll bite? Why such low participation/unavailability? Koshixxx | ||
AT.Epiphany
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On March 04 2015 00:33 Koshi wrote: I will post absolutely nothing for the next 18 hours. Koshi will not make another post till this countdown is on 0:00 I made this decision after reading the posts made by 7-8 players in this game. Nothing I did was scummy this game, I just decided to not play for the first 2 hours of the game because I wanted to do other things during that time (00:00 till 02:00), slept for 10 hours and had to work after that. But for some fucking reason I am scumread by 7-8 people for this, while it doesn't make any sense in the world that I should be SHOT for this. Yes, you can put some suspicion on me, I guess that is fine. But to read the dumb certainty from people like sicklucker and rayn about my alignment just bores me and makes me mad + somewhat sad. So I decided to do nothing till after I wake up tomorrow and maybe glance over the thread again. Let it also be known the sentiment in this thread is pretty mafia favored, we got too many people wanting to shoot way too early. If I have to read more post from somebody like geript I actually might get cancer. The guy thinks he got reads while he just got proven wrong on every flip in an ongoing game I will not discuss further than these flips. It is just cancerous. So I might get shot for deciding to not play this game hard in the first 24hours, so be it. This is not on me. This is on the townleaders in this thread using this lynchsystem extremely bad and thinking they are better than they actually are. Because don't be fooled. There is no case on me except meta. And the meta used on me is actually not that good, it's extremely lazy form of meta based on me not playing for 2 hours before going to bed. Quite obviously I am still not playing, even after being awake for 4 more hours, even though I posted some things, and I just declared another +17 hours of not posting. So I guess now you could make some sort of meta read. Maybe. But tbh as mafia I am more around than this. But maybe not. I am not sure how my mafia game looks like. I would say that we should shoot somewhere in 48 hours. That would be optimal. But I don't think that will happen because some dumbasses are putting the idea in the thread we should shoot really fast because otherwise mafia will use the shot (which is not the worst play in this atmoshphere because you might get away with it, because nobody is saying that shooting is claiming scum, or trying to make sure town doesn't shoot. And on top of that the game looks shitty balanced and getting a ml already is pretty awesome, especially if tomorrow it is cell (and then the shooter isn't in the cell) and the day after that it is mayor and mafia is able to get a scum mayor because there are no townies left anyway. GG. Anyway. Do w.e the fuck you want. I am sitting this one out on the sidelines. I will post some smart stuff in 17 hours. If I get the chance. And I feel like. Because if somebody else is shot and it is a town I might just not give 2 fucks at all. Unless I then see mafia not nk anybody. And the ninjas hitting scum. Or something like that. My expectation for this game are low. I can already not wait to see how fast town spirit will gain points and how expensive the blue roles are against the mafia counterpart. This is the best post so far on the thread. He might be mafia, but the fact that people want to shoot him for the flimsy reasons he outlined pretty much encapsulates why he probably wouldn't play as Mafia like this. People just really like killing people for bizzare reasons like this. Seriously, there are a lot of 'leader' types here who think randomly pointing fingers or throwing speculative 50 layer deep meta 'reads' around is 'advancing the thread' but trying to discuss a constructive plan for the town in an unusual set-up is a wastage of time. All of this has created a great atmosphere for mafia, and I echo the idea that people really shouldn't be okaying the idea of guys taking a shot at the first opportunity and then saying "Oops sorry, he looked so scummy it was really obvious. His bad for playing town like that" This is precisely what I think geript plans to do, and why he antagonized me, because it's really easy to look at a new account townie and then claim that shooting them was justified because they played badly. I continue to think geript is scum, though consensus opinion insists that he is probably town. | ||
AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 04 2015 00:43 kitaman27 wrote: Upon reading the thread, this was the first thing that I noticed. Typically town will benefit from roles more than mafia. I have no evidence that it would benefit us to maximize the length of day one, but if I had to guess I would probably say that the more points the spirit gains before the night cycle the better. The challenge would be how do we get this to happen? I'd be in favor of some sort of policy where we all agree not to shoot until an hour before the actual deadline, but for this to work everyone would need to be on board and willing to go after anyone who breaks the policy. Being realistic, there is always going to be one townie who decides to yolo the shot immediately, but I'll put the idea out there anyways. Despite this, I am also playing with the idea of taking the selfish role and insta-shooting like sandroba suggests just to have the control if I feel somewhat confident. I like Tube's suggestion about the shot vote count, though that doesn't say much about tube the player. The biggest problem with this format is that if town makes it clear that player X is getting shot, player X simply shoots first, but that's not a problem if we just follow it for the first 22 hours. To get the rest of the policy out of the way, I'll be guarding the button unless I have a reason to choose one of the other options. From a setup perspective, I'd put the button in the "manipulative" category where a certain player or faction has to convince others to blindly perform an action, which tends to get ugly. Ninja's should be shooting early and often. From my experience, a ninja very rarely locates another ninja through analysis. It's mostly winning by staying alive longer. By shooting early, you maximize your chance to eliminate the other ninja's vest an open them up to a night kill. Furthermore, if you happen to hit a player with your first shot and they live, odds are you've probably won right there. Dying with two shots in hand is pretty worthless. The reason I'm saying this is that shooting early also benefits town because the mafia kp can be reduced by reducing their numbers and flipping the first mafia always snowballs the game. Ninja isn't an anti-town 3p like serial killer so we can both benefit in setups like these by working together. Epiphany had the weak intro post feeling obligated to explain why he wasn't posting. He mentions that he is a newbie several times, even before the Mocsta post, yet then starts talking about geript saying that: "Every single time he's been Mafia he's far more aggressive and confrontational than he is as Town. Moreover his mafia games have him rapidly suggesting lynch targets and putting out scumpiles pretty quickly. As a mafia (and not as a Town) he invariably pushes multiple targets and acts aggressively." I could be wrong, but this would imply that he probably isn't a newbie. I don't have a problem with smurfs, but the likely deception seems scummy. Also, he needs to be less angry This one I found a bit odd. It's fine to joke with him about being shot, but then following up with another question as if he is actually trying to trap him here either means he is attempting to look like he is scum hunting or is feeling really, really optimistic. Heh so you thought a host was able to modify the appearance of the TeamLiquid forums for his mafia game? Right.... Koshi's idea to policy a day one shot is decent in theory to deter a poor shot, but it probably won't go anywhere. Toads suggestion that he doesn't want to be too townish is pretty silly. You can't justify that with a straight face. Damdred seems scummy enough to warrant keeping an eye on. Can't point to anything in specific though. I didn't really see Obi as the clear suspect upon my first read through like Sepulchre suggests. Sepulchre comes off as a reasonable individual though. Hopefully I'll have a better idea for a few shot targets before the 24 hour mark. I mentioned newbie because this particular bit was brought up by Geript in a highly insulting manner. Seriously read the stuff geript wrote, it's probably more angry than me, and what's more entirely unprovoked personal attacks from him. That's why I was angry for a while, which I no longer am. | ||
AT.Epiphany
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On March 04 2015 00:56 kitaman27 wrote: Were you familiar with geript's mafia play prior to the game starting or is that something that you took the time to research once it began? If it is the latter, was there something that geript posted that triggered you to do some research or was he someone you just picked out and happened to find evidence when reading his past games that led you to your conclusion? I did the research because of geript's almost immediate hectoring and abuse of me from the moment I made my first post. | ||
AT.Epiphany
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I don't want to shoot him, and I'm leaning more on him as Town. I'm more comfortable shooting your mom as per Rayn's long reasoning. In any event, if you do want to shoot him I, please the guys advocating this, and especially the guy pulling the trigger, please provide some reasoning deeper than "he started out not being very active". I might be wrong and he may well be scum, but if not, I really want the guys who are so keen to shoot to not fall back on reasoning like "Oh well that's too bad" or "He should have participated more". This is a very convenient bandwagon at the moment, and it's really easy for people to default to shooting him because he seems like the most obvious candidate. The thing I really don't want is the Mafia being able to take a shot at a guy, provide almost no reasoning before and then afterwards when he flips town to claim that it was justified because he acted a little unusual. It's really late in my time zone, so I will be going to bed shortly. | ||
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On March 04 2015 03:44 rsoultin wrote: Seriously, epiphany just said: I don't want to shoot koshi for...no reason YM works cause sheeping rayn long useless rant on why whoever is shooting should have good reasons for shooting who they are going to shoot then peaces out meeeeeeh post and if koshi is town lynch this guy I'm tired, but seriously my reason was "I think he's town", which I've explained in two separate posts. I agree with rayn's reasoning. You're free to conclude whatever you want from that. It's a meaningful rant, because we're nearing a situation where exactly what I said is looking likely. | ||
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I'm really bummed out by Koshi getting himself mod-killed thereby obviating the mafia's need to shoot him (I was pretty sure he was town). At this point, my main point of interest is getting into the dispute between Mocsta and Breshke. I'm confident that one of the two of these guys is definitely scum and that this isn't TOWN-TOWN the general consensus seems to be Breshke. One reason I'm finding it difficult to trust Mocsta on this is that he launched a similarly flimsy attack on me on D1, which he then retracted or distanced himself from after he asked me for a few reads, which i gave, even though he wasn't satisfied with one of them (Koshi Town which was subsequently vindicated). I really didn't change my stance or do anything different subsequently, so I'm really puzzled as to why Mocsta's suddenly dropped off questioning me. I'd also note that this drop-off has coincided with an increasing number of people town-reading me, and I find this a little suspicious. @ Rayn: You were questioning Mocsta hard at one point, and now he's green on your filter, what's the reasoning for the change? Also, I'm null on Breshke, I don't think his behaviour on the spat between Geript and me was necessarily scummy in that his justification that he wanted to listen to me, even if he thought I sounded scummy makes some sense. | ||
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On March 05 2015 04:16 kitaman27 wrote: Same post later on: How can you say it's not town-town if you are NULL on Breshke? Your first sentence suggests that if Mocsta is town, Breshke is mafia, but your second suggests you don't have a read on Breshke. Could you elaborate here? I just mean I'm sure one of them is scum, but I'm not sure which. At this point, I'm leaning slightly towards it being Mocsta, but I'm really not sure primarily because I don't entirely agree with Mocsta's reasoning on Breshke's 'wishy-washy content'. That said Mocsta has been more actively hunting while Breshke's behaviour has been rather reactive in nature. I'm not sure, but if somebody can analyse this interaction better than I have we could probably get closer to a conclusion on this. Since everyone seems to think it's Breshke, I don't mind defaulting to that assumption as long as the discussion gets focused on this for a bit. It won't be a derail anyway, because Breshke seems to be high on everyone's suspect list at the moment. | ||
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Primarily because of the tone of the interaction with Mocsta tunnelling Breshke and the latter reacting to Mocsta as a threat. There doesn't seem to be even a bit of pause where either of them is considering the other to be on the same side, and that's usually not how I'd expect it in town vs town. What's more this wasn't really heated or personal either, and it doesn't look like an ego-clash the way people have interpreted Geript vs me (to clarify I still stick with my initial opinion of that, but there's no point going over that at the moment and ruining a constructive atmosphere) | ||
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On March 05 2015 04:36 raynpelikoneet wrote: How does the bolded part make sense? Given the underlined if they are town-mafia, wouldn't the townie act like he would vs another town aswell -> still consider the other one as being on the same side at some point? Not if he thinks the other guy is deliberately picking on slips to fabricate a case, which is the first thing Breshke accuses Mocsta of...that's why I referred to the tone. I | ||
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On March 05 2015 04:44 kitaman27 wrote: But what you're saying is: 1 of Mocsta or Breshke is mafia because they don't give pause. Therefore, 1 of Mocsta or Breshke is town. Hence, 1 of Mocsta or Breshke is town, yet they don't give pause. It's not making sense to me. I'm just saying whoever the townie is thinks the other guy is mafia and framing him. Obviously, they don't necessarily have to think that way, but the tone of this interaction clearly indicates they do. | ||
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On March 05 2015 04:48 kitaman27 wrote: But why cant Mocsta be a townie who thanks Breshke is mafia and is framing him and Breshke be a townie who thanks Mocsta is mafia and is framing him? Still don't see why it's one or the other. You're reading this as "necessarily is this way", while I'm saying "this is how the conversation looks to me". | ||
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On March 05 2015 06:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: Scumread on AT.Epiphany. Half of the stuff he did on D1 was pushing geript. Then he said (on N1) he hasn't dropped his thoughts on geript but doesn't comment my -- geripts argument with anything. I explained precisely (in that same post) why I didn't because geript would go bonkers everytime his name is mentioned, thereby derailing the thread and the atmosphere. | ||
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On March 05 2015 18:17 Tubesock wrote: What do you mean? I've been really wishywashy on SL. The only thing I said about him that is scummy is he's not pissing me off which scares me. Now I think he's not mafia because I refuse to believe there are two mafia in this cell. Sandroba is the only one. Tubesock, why do you "refuse to believe there are 2 mafia in the cell?". One is literally guaranteed and if you randomly choose 3 people from the remaining 18 or so, there's a pretty decent probability another one might be mafia. | ||
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On March 05 2015 18:27 Tubesock wrote: OP says it's possible. But that would mean there is a 50% chance of landing on mafia and that's fucked up. Except it would be a violation of the game rules if he ensured only one was mafia. The rules specifically state players will be randomly nominated. | ||
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On March 05 2015 18:43 Oatsmaster wrote: Who gives a shit? We can only lynch one person today. Which two are the scum then? You're getting me wrong. It's not irrelevant at all. Tubesock assumed there's only one mafia, which doesn't have to be the case according to the rules. I actually townread Tubesock, but one interpretation for this is obviously that only the Mafia would be absolutely sure how many Mafia were in there. | ||
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On March 05 2015 19:08 Mocsta wrote: Its not obvious to me. Posts like this are noise. It convinces no one to tip their vote your way; and provides no one with an understanding of your point of view. It seems to be a consensus at the moment, and I've already stated my reasons for scumreading him earlier. You can just read my filter to see them. There's no point elongating the thread by repeating arguments I've already made. | ||
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