EPT1. town
2. mafia
3. mafia
instead of you who with the benefit of a cop check actually had mafia at no 1.
Detention Mafia - Page 6
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
1. town 2. mafia 3. mafia instead of you who with the benefit of a cop check actually had mafia at no 1. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On June 05 2014 23:11 Amiko wrote: First let's talk about why Palmar's points are unconvincing. 1) Palmar's vote on ninjabunnies means nothing Mafia make cases they don't intend to push, and mafia talk to each other. Even if that were not true, I don't think Palmar gets any credit for this given that he didn't actually push or do anything with that case, anyway. Take a look at ninjabunnies' reaction - she's the one being "attacked" and she doesn't care because the case is so obviously meaningless http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#175 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#177 I haven't played with NB before and I'm not a prophet. There is no way I can predict how she would react to me making a weak case on her. The case is still correct, it just doesn't mean she's mafia. That shit happens all the time in mafia. On June 05 2014 23:11 Amiko wrote: (2) Palmar hasn't actually bussed his team Palmar may have argued with gobble and said he would support a slOosh lynch. However, those words are not consistent with his action. On day 2, Palmar resisted a slOosh lynch in favor of M_Z. Further, look at his discussion that day. Even if Palmar thought M_Z was a better lynch, he doesn't weigh in on slOosh except to say that he would vote for him. He doesn't actually vote for him, doesn't really explain why M_Z is a better lynch. Although he says his lynch on M_Z is a slam dunk (despite it being weak) he doesn't even attempt to push his case. When he tries to convince people to move to M_Z, he doesn't discuss the merits (the "slam dunk") part at all, and only goes with the WIFOM "too easy" argument. Further, after telling people to vote for their top scumread on day 1, he tells people not to vote for the "too easy" lynch on day 2. To me, this all looks like someone who is eager to get votes off a scum partner. If Palmar was town and thought slOosh would be mafia, his day 2 should have spent trying to get reads to distinguish between the players and figure out which was more scummy. He should have at least weighed in on the slOosh case and provided some explanation. Your case on Sloosh wasn't wrong. There is no point for me to argue about the merits of the case. In a world where MZ doesn't exist I would have just sheeped your case. I actually intended to do that until I got cold feet regarding how easy the wagon was. I'm still sort of surprised it was this easy, but I guess gobble actually being mafia explained some of it. My argument was never that your case was wrong, my argument was that my case on MZ was really good. However I reached the wrong conclusions for the right reasons on MZ. I proved that he wasn't reading the thread and wasn't actively trying to solve the game, but I neglected the conclusion that he might be lazy and apathetic town. Just like you (and others) are now using correct arguments (I tried to divert a mafia lynch) to reach the wrong conclusion (I'm mafia). The difference is that unlike MZ I'm going to actually respond and explain until there is nothing left, I am a vengeful bastard and I want you guys to feel bad about not having listened or appreciated the efforts if you end up lynching me anyway. I don't waste time when I'm playing mafia. I see no reason to post when town is doing what I want it to be doing. I was okay with Sloosh getting the lynch until later in the day. If I was mafia and planned to defend him I probably would've done it earlier and not just based on wagon speed. But hey, ignore that. On June 05 2014 23:11 Amiko wrote: If Palmar actually thought the M_Z case was better, why was he so inactive day 2? Why didn't he try to get anyone to join the losing wagon he was so sure about? Why didn't he talk about the merits of slOosh at all? He doesn't even say anything like "If M_Z does flip town, slOosh dies next." He doesn't talk with anyone who begins to townread slOosh to try to convince him otherwise. Palmar may have said he doubted slOosh, but his play reflects a strong desire not to lynch slOosh. On the contrary. Me not doing stuff means exactly that I'm happy with whatever it is town is doing, or at least that I don't really mind it. That's the entire point. Your argument doesn't fit any reasonable mafia strategy. You're saying I initially decided to bus Sloosh and then decided to not do it anymore way later. I'm not this incompetent as mafia dude. When you drop the case I make a decision on what I want to do, and I either bus him for credit or defend him by breaking your case. Your case was good, you KNOW your case was good. If I'm mafia and don't want sloosh to die I would have to dismantle it immediately. Your explanation does not fit. On June 05 2014 23:11 Amiko wrote: (3) Palmar defending fuba doesn't mean anything to me First off, Palmar's point here misreads the situation. At the time we were talking, the wagons were M_Z and slOosh. Fuba was not the most likely person for town to get behind lynching. Second, this isn't really defending fuba at all. It's just admitting someone's play is weird and still calling them town. If anything, it leaves the door open for Palmar to try to mislynch fuba later (because fuba's play is weird). Yes but I didn't really need to call him town. And yes, it was not a strong townread. I haven't still went back and found what triggered the townread, but I made it for some reason. The backtracking strategy you're claiming is actually awful, because if I'm mafia I need two mislynches here, not one. It woul be ok if I needed just one. I can't do the "contemplate my reads" thing twice. On June 05 2014 23:11 Amiko wrote: (4) lol I actually expected scum-Palmar to make this point. Even if it wasn't a terrible point (and it is) it doesn't actually matter because mderg and fuba were lazy too. It also doesn't explain your inactive play on d2, where you should have been quite active since two people you suspected were on the chopping block. More in a bit :3 Again you're saying "you should have done something" that doesn't fit with how I actually think. I'm usually the most active when I think townies are up for a lynch, or I have to fight for something. It isn't a terrible point. What's the point of being active when the people I want to lynch are on the chopping block? That's exactly the time to not do anything because there isn't anything to argue for. I already explained this to you during the MZ lynch. I thought MZ was mafia, what's the point of trying to figure out if Slam is mafia or not. It's a complete waste of time. You're making a huge logical leap here. You assume that people acting how you WANT them to act to be how they WILL act. And you're risking the game on you being cocky. | ||
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Palmar
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On June 05 2014 23:23 Amiko wrote: I'll also mention that I think it's more likely I would be roleblocked or killed D1 since I was playing pretty towny, yet I wasn't. I think townreading Palmar may have helped with that  If you allow yourself to condemn me for the actions of the mafia you're being awful. This is terrible. | ||
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Palmar
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On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote: Give a good explanation for your day 2. Ok. On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote: You should have been talking about both M_Z and slOosh since you claim you thought both were scum. No I shouldn't. You think I should, but that isn't how everyone thinks. On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote: You should have been questioning these players to decide which was the better lynch. Why? Both players had good cases on them. I thought mine was better but clearly it wasn't. I really had no problem with a sloosh lynch initially, and I said as much. On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote: Explain how you think your case on M_Z was a slam dunk. He didn't read the thread and instead threw out a random buzzphrase "trying to back out of the read". The main point is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21429355 On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote: Explain why you didn't push your "slam dunk" case. I was fine with your case on Sloosh. There's a reason I said "I might throw my lynch behind a sloosh lynch". I mean this may be hard for you to understand, but I was actually telling the truth... huh! On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote: Explain why you were not upset the "slam dunk" case was not getting traction. Because I was fine with a Sloosh lynch initially. For some reason everyone thinks I'm an egoistical bastard that refuses to listen to anyone but himself (it's half true, I am egoistical), but intelligent sheeping is a strong part of my game. I knew you were town, I liked your case, so I wasn't really in a hurry to lynch MZ. On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote: Explain why when you started asking people to move to M_Z, you didn't talk about the great case you had. I did, I said it was slam dunk etc. Did you want me to say the same thing again... maybe translate to spanish for slam? I don't see a point in restating my case over and over again. | ||
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Palmar
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On June 05 2014 23:32 Amiko wrote: And no, you are the top lynch because there are three people unconfirmed and (1) you are the scummiest of the three (2) mderg is the least scummy of the three, so it doesn't matter to me a whole lot whether you or fuba dies first. I'd rather kill you first though, since I think if we finish the game tonight probably I don't end the game dead :3 There is also the small possibility that if we leave you alive until tomorrow you will bamboozle Haru into voting for mderg for no good reason. Objection! That's subjective bullshit. | ||
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Palmar
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On June 05 2014 23:49 Amiko wrote: Palmar could have switched until his play at the end of the day. With (I think) less than two hours left, Palmar finally gave some comments that distinguished between the two lynches: he said that the case on M_Z was better (it wasn't) and that the slOosh lynch was "too easy" (it wasn't). After he committed to those comments, he could not switch back to slOosh without looking very scummy or going into my "trap" comment. Given how close the votes were, I don't think he would want to, anyway. Well the bolded just proves my point, you want to lynch me because my list of top scumreads went town, mafia, mafia, and not mafia --- whatever. The sloosh lynch was too easy. In hindsight the reason was that gobbley was afk and mafia had no presence, but I could not possibly have known that. I don't even know what your trap comment is. On June 05 2014 23:49 Amiko wrote: I don't understand this point. Let's say you are scum and gobble didn't get killed. In this case, gobble votes M_Z over his scumpartner. At that point, it'd look like this - we'll assume for the moment ninjabunnies still gets shot: 5) slOosh 6) gobbledydook 7) Palmar 8) mderg 9) fuba 10) HaruRH 11) sqrtofneg1 12) Amiko 13) Alakaslam In what way does that foreclose a winning strategy? You'd be in great shape. No, because we've all sided on the same side. Any competent strategy splits us on day 2 so we have the opportunity to unite for a day 3. Saving sloosh wasn't worth it. I would never do it as mafia. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
I cannot play as much on weekends, I'll provide links to prove it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21262920 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21045213 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20957916 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20960223 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20827739 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20752441 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19865612 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17447313 | ||
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Palmar
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Maybe I don't want to. Only one of them is mafia. First I need to decide which one it is. | ||
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Palmar
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On June 06 2014 00:16 Amiko wrote: You ignore the point of the votes. You don't have to have your votes split d2 because there are still plenty of wagons you can unite behind. You can try to attack the people who swapped for a mislynch (Haru, sqrt, fuba) And, you can bus slOosh the next day if you need to. It doesn't matter if all three of you vote M_Z. Who cares. I'm telling you. I would not do what I did as mafia. I think it's a terrible strategy. | ||
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Palmar
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Palmar
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Then stop calling me mafia for reasons that don't make me mafia. | ||
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Palmar
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On June 06 2014 00:19 Amiko wrote: I think this falls under the subjective category you mentioned earlier. Not persuasive. Yes but I'm an expert on myself. | ||
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Palmar
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On June 06 2014 00:18 Amiko wrote: The "trap" comment was where I encouraged you to move onto slOosh and pretend that you were only voting on M_Z as a trap to try to get mafia to join the M_Z wagon. I didn't expect you to do it and regretted the post. here's a little tidbit. I read your case on sloosh. As for your other posts, I don't really pay attention. You mentioned somewhere in this conversation that you thought i and someone else... (fuba? haru?) could be moved to MZ on day 2. I had not even the slightest clue about these things. When I've decided I think someone is town, I generally stop paying much attention to what they say, unless I think it's very important. I mostly read closely what the people I'm undecided on are posting. | ||
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Palmar
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I'm not mafia because I don't actually act this way when I'm about to get lynched as mafia. | ||
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Palmar
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On June 06 2014 00:34 Amiko wrote: Here is more reason why I want to lynch Palmar- This is a post from Palmar from night one. At this point, Palmar is convinced that M_Z is scum. Palmar quotes the post from day one. At that point, there was still time to push someone other than jabber. So, Palmar had already gone through the things that he felt made M_Z scum on day 1, but he doesn’t push this until after jabber has been mislynched. I already explained that, and I also explained why we had to lynch jabber. | ||
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Palmar
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21421396 On May 28 2014 17:05 Palmar wrote: Where do you get the feeling I'm backing out of the read? That's super interesting you somehow get the feeling I'm backing out of anything with this post. 2. I wrote several big posts on how I was conflicted about the jabber lynch: On May 28 2014 21:11 Palmar wrote: I don't know. I think we have to lynch him. He's flailing so much and saying all the wrong things even after coming back to the thread makes it hard to think he will 100% flip mafia. If he is mafia he is not receiving any help from coaches or teammates. This post specifically is so bad. If he is town this game it would have been directly in his benefit to make known he was mafia in the last game and then proceed to play like a townie. There is no benefit in concealing information about your playstyle as a townie. I'm not 100% caught up on the game so I don't know if he elaborated on how being a wild card might help him. But the point is, he's doing that thing where he is almost too scummy to be scum. So if we get a slam-dunk case today I'm all ears. We actually might have one with MZ's overreaction and misinterpretation of my post against him, but we need to let it play out. Thing is, too scummy to be scum is really hard to deal with. To my knowledge he's not providing any useful reads or cases, he sheeped i on the case on me with almost no explanation other than my initial vote being weird. Could he be a deer in headlights? Yes, absolutely. But I'm not sure I want to gamble the game on just thinking he's too bad to be mafia. Maybe the explanation is simple and he is just mafia who fucked up. I haven't really read the setup but if we have a vigi it might be a good thing to not lynch him and shoot him. I bolded the parts where I'm explaining why I feel like despite my trepidations I think we have to lynch jabber. On May 28 2014 22:06 Palmar wrote: The "too scummy to be scum" concept is a very fragile and shitty, but surprisingly often correct thing that happens. The idea is basically that if he is mafia, his team knows he made a blunder, so they would help him devise a strategy to come back, or bus him. if bus: I'd expect him to just shut up and not try to come back. Now I know I'm town but other people don't so this is weak from everyone else's perspective, but why on earth is he piling shit on me if his team is busing him. That is basically just helping me gain influcence in town. It's just bad play if he's mafia to give credit to a townie. if they try to save him: I'd expect him/his team/mafia coach to have come up with a better plan than what he has posted. His arguments are just straight up awful, If the mafia team can't collectively think up some better defense than this well.. I just don't want to believe that. And thus, he's being soooo awful that it's possible he's too scummy to be scum. He's blatantly wrong. He's hardly trying to cover up how awful his stuff is. But, there's also the chance that he's just acting on his own, he messed up, he's not thinking long term and thought maybe a wagon could be built on me, and in that case he's just mafia who's playing badly. Like I don't really like or see the point in speculating on this thing. If we have a slam dunk case on someone I'll support it, but currently I see no other outcome for today than lynching him. again bolded the important parts. At the time I didn't think my case against MZ was 100% slam dunk. It wasn't until MZ proceeded to do absolutely nothing that I convinced myself it was. | ||
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Palmar
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On June 06 2014 00:45 Amiko wrote: Point to where you became sure about M_Z. gradually over n1. He already made the posts that I wanted to lynch him for, but the inaction factor doesn't have an exact time on it, it's just a feeling that he isn't really trying. by the time I said he had a 95% chance of flipping mafia I was pretty damn sure | ||
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Palmar
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Man I'm consistent as fuck when I'm town, I wish I could do this as mafia. | ||
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Palmar
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Don't listen to Palmar, he's an idiot. I get the first point, but man the second point is bad. The one person who has the authority to actually know if I'm playing inside my meta or not is me, because I'm an expert on myself. Honestly though. This isn't a meta thing. You have two ways of explaining my actions, one where I'm mafia and the other where I'm town. I've repeatedly shown it's easier and more consistent to explain them if I'm town. I'm just adding the meta thing for flavor. | ||
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