Detention Mafia - Page 15

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 07 2014 20:22 GMT

#1418

Yeah Fuba I'm not criticizing you for ignoring the posts.
I was just seeing if either of you felt the other might be picking up on the points more - I think I raised a few good points on Haru and I feel like scum might have seen him as a potential mislynch.

But, I don't feel either of you really picked up on him as someone you would want to lynch, so I was curious if either of you saw anything in the other's filter that might change my mind.

(ok gone!)

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 07 2014 23:58 GMT

#1429

I'll be here for just a bit and write what I can-

@Fuba:
Regarding pushing lynches
I haven’t read all your games, but I took a look at the two you linked. In Basterd Mini Mafia, it seems like you pushed the WoS case and continued to do so until you died. In White Flag, it looks like you pushed hzflank in two posts.
In both games you went idle or died shortly after raising the issue, so it’s not like it’s a long string of posts on the people. But, only looking at the two games you posted, I don’t see support for the idea that you make cases and drop them. Anyway, we are talking meta so I can’t say too much for it either way.

On copchecks
I don’t disagree that mderg makes an unlikely cop check, but I think the problem is that scum loses ground even if I copcheck a town player. Obviously, it is worse for them if I check a scum player (and it becomes a loss if I catch a mafia with 2 already dead), but I feel like there’s still a strong incentive to try to roleblock the cop.
Just as evidence of this, if my n3 check (which was on fuba) had not been roleblocked, we would have won regardless of whether he was mafia or town. Without the roleblock, mafia loses. To me, this is really a razor-thin margin for scum to play with, so it’s hard for me to imagine they give up a roleblock when they are potentially so close to losing.

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 08 2014 00:00 GMT

#1430

Inevitability of slOosh lynch
I don't agree with Fuba's portrayal of the slOosh lynch as inevitable, just because it really ended up being so close.
I can't say for certani what scum was or wasn't thinking, but given that one vote (gobble) would have tipped the wagon I just have trouble believing scum felt it was inevitable.

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 08 2014 00:06 GMT

#1431

Another reason I'm still leaning fuba is that, let's pretend the plan fuba was talking about was successful. In that case, mafia ideally wants to bring up another person as a mislynch who can be suspicious. Gobble would almost certainly be suspicious if he had voted in the last few hours since his vote would have tipped the scales.
Potentially, he would have looked even worse if I had revealed my cop check (and I probably would have if we lynched M_Z because I would have been worried about dying that night), but this is sort of an side issue since scum wouldn't know that.

Anyway, if we think about it like that, then Fuba's case on sqrt makes a little more sense-
- If sqrt doesn't swap, he can be attacked for being inconsistent (swapping D1, not swapping D2)
- If sqrt does swap, it reinforces fuba's point (swapping late, and swapping onto a town player)
So I could sort of see the sqrt case as a setup for the following day for fuba to reassert the case on sqrt.

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 08 2014 00:17 GMT

#1432

I'm out for a bit, might be back before deadline but not sure I have too much to add anyway.
I expect to die so I'll just say although I haven't enjoyed this game a whole lot, it's been interesting to play.

In terms of tomorrow, I think I'd still to lynch fuba. I certainly could be wrong and it's everyone's game, if you decide to vote mderg I don't really mind. If I wanted you to just sheep me, I probably would have told you to do so.

Either way, we can always talk more about it post-game.

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 10 2014 00:59 GMT

#1465

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 10 2014 01:18 GMT

#1471

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 10 2014 01:41 GMT

#1477

Not sure if the rb mistake helped or hurt scum, to be honest. I think I would have pushed to lynch Haru if I didn't get the green check; on the other hand, I wouldn't have been as content with mderg as town. I really thought there was no way that scum would give up a roleblock with only one scum left, particularly after my d2 play. In my opinion, I didn't talk to slOosh nearly enough for my case D2 to be come from anyone but cop or scum, but I'll do better next time.

No idea where the game would have gone from there. I was pretty unhappy with the game so I don't have much to say beyond that.

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 10 2014 04:48 GMT

#1487

@Koshi
I don't know, I appreciate the praise but I'm mixed on my d2.
On the one hand, I think my case on slOosh was super amazing and awesome!
But I feel like my case was basically cop claiming even if I didn't say I was cop (that's why I was so certain there was a watcher because I wasn't roleblocked n2, I couldn't believe I wouldn't get rb'd after that). And, it really disheartened me when it felt like no one engaged with the case at all (except maybe slOosh, lol, I think the runner up would be mderg)... I felt like I put in a lot of effort and didn't really obtain any results I wouldn't have gotten by just saying I was cop with a redcheck. I don't really think I'll ever bother spending so much time on a case again.

@Epishade

On June 10 2014 10:58 Epishade wrote:
If I'm a cop and I'm fairly certain I'm about to be nightkilled, is it not a good idea to give out all my checks? Or should I keep that to myself anyways in the off-chance that I don't get nightkilled and just hope that town doesn't vote off town that I checked and confirmed (to myself) as town?

If I don't get shot that night, I may get shot the next night for claiming, but I will have confirmed at least another townie or 2 and I won't get lynched most likely.

This was my first game as cop on forum, but I felt like I should check people who I thought scum wouldn't kill (so they wouldn't get night killed) but were not getting pushed much by other players (Haru)

I think there's a lot of factors so there isn't a clear answer... it depends on who your checks are on, how many scum are left, whether scum has a roleblocker, whether town has protective roles, things like that. I do think though, if you ever redcheck someone and don't get them killed that day, your filter should somehow make it clear that that person needs to die. Someone else with more experience may be able to give you a better answer though.

@Blazinghand

On June 10 2014 12:37 Blazinghand wrote:
What did people think of the newbie/regular mix in this game, combined with the coaching? Did it provide a good environment for players to learn? Was it fun for both newbies and non-newbies?

Coaching: I was really pleased to have a chance to get a coach after completing my newbie games, but this was the first game where I was a little too frustrated to use my coach effectively. I do think HolyFlare was very good and I would certainly recommend him as a coach.
Experience/Environment: I didn't enjoy the game, but I thought the player experience balance was good. I had issues with Palmar's play, but one thing I felt he did really well this game was using the game to further the community by explaining things to the newest players. I think I really should have done the same thing, even if I'm more a newbie than a regular :D I felt Slam played fine, too.

Thanks again for hosting Blazinghand / Koshi / Keirathi and for putting together a game that let us have coaches. Much appreciated.

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 10 2014 06:11 GMT

#1494

Eh that's not really fair Haru. I certainly doubt I would have ended up voting mderg - I felt like my line of thought was correct regarding the n2 roleblock,was correct (and it was, except it was changed with the host mistake). But like I said pre-death, if I wanted you to just sheep me on fuba, I would have asked you to. And whereas on other days my goal was to lynch specific people, if I'm alive in LYLO I'm willing to consider anything - my first game LYLO is a good example of that, I think.

I don't really see why it's important that Haru and Sqrt vote on the same person in a 4-player LYLO, though. Fuba and mderg were going to crossvote for sure, and there's no guarantee either of the confirmed town is more right than the other. You can argue that makes it a 50% chance, but if they are picking between two players it's still a 50% chance, right?
As an aside, Haru seemed a little confused ("Either me or sqrt needs to hold the absolute lynch now, it mustn't fall onto mderg or fuba.") - there was no way mderg or fuba could have controlled the lynch because they had to vote each other. Haru didn't take the lynch power away from them - he took it from sqrt.

Anyway glad you were able to figure out who the last scum was Haru, good job and well played!

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 10 2014 06:23 GMT

#1496

I see what you mean on the votes.

It's certainly the odds that I wouldn't have changed

I think if nobody was talking on the last day I probably wouldn't change but if you lock in the vote it's fine.

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 10 2014 19:00 GMT

#1515

@marv:
I don't agree on Palmar's d4 at all. He posted a lot of diary entries, then said he didn't have time to filter dive. He misrepresented his play d1-d3 as though he had always been on the forefront of discussion (not at all). His posts suggested that he didn't read or understand my case on slOosh. Further, Palmar initially ignored my attempts to get him to talk about mderg / fuba, which to me seemed even scummier (if he starts townreading one player, it makes it hard to make a case against the other the following day). He only really engaged on these points when he wasn't convincing me with the others.
I certainly understand getting a townread based on tone, but I feel think that is a superficial look that ignores the actual content of his d4 posts (and his prior play).
If you mean why lynch palmar before fuba, that was pretty obvious I think - haru is likely to vote mderg in lylo.

My d4 was trying to find the most town player out of the three. I started the feeling it was mderg, and finished the game feeling it was mderg.
I concede I placed a lot of significance on the n2 roleblock... but my reasoning was correct. Reviewing the scumQT, you never even considered not using the roleblock.

I felt Palmar's best point d4 was his questioning how town reacted to the Alakaslam roleblock claim.
This was really apt - it went straight to the heart of why I felt mderg was the most town, and it was something I hadn't considered. If I had seen people townreading Alakaslam for his claim, I feel pretty sure would have moved to Fuba and kept Palmar alive. I reread the thread very thoroughly and concluded that Slam really hadn't gotten towncred for the roleblock claim. Ultimately, this only made me feel mderg's roleblock claim was more likely to be true since scum would be giving something up without being sure they would gain anything, so I wanted to ensure mderg lived and fuba & palmar were lynched.

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 10 2014 19:03 GMT

#1516

Well I guess I do agree to some extent then - I did feel some of it was sincere, but I didn't feel a tone read outweighed his other play.

Before forum mafia, I've never played with people who let themselves die without a fight. Here it seems like most people just sort of give into inertia and let themselves get lynched. Palmar certainly didn't, but to me pre-lynch tone reads mean very little. Do you really think you'll not vote someone just because they try to make you "sign" italicized text? I don't.

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 10 2014 19:39 GMT

#1519

I played with Palmar once before (in Catastrophe) and read some of the cross-site games. I had played a game previously where he was at risk of being lynched. I did read some of his database games and his play was different from his town being lynched and scum being lynched.
It certainly was more town toned, I just don't think last day tone is enough to convince me to overcome play.

As an example: some people switched off slOosh based on tone. I read slOosh's prior games as scum, his last posts this game were quite a bit different from the other games where he was being lynched as scum. Why can't the same be true for Palmar?

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 10 2014 19:41 GMT

#1520

Palmar said I needed to learn not to play as if I was scared. Sqrt said he was scared, I didn't (and wasn't).

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 10 2014 19:42 GMT

#1521

Can you explain what you mean more marv?

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 10 2014 19:43 GMT

#1524

Palmar didn't do anything to convince me that the reason he should be lynched (mderg is the most likely town of the three based on n2 roleblock) was incorrect; quite the opposite - like I said, he raised a point that made this more likely.

Why is it bullheaded to not change your mind when you aren't given reason to change your mind, and are actually given support for your opinion?

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 10 2014 19:47 GMT

#1525

On June 11 2014 04:43 Koshi wrote:
Palmar his D4 was pretty town. You could respect lynch him in case he has superb scumplay.

Basically Palmar looked bad because he wanted to lynch MZ D1&D2 and MZ ended up being town. That's kinda it. From what I read.

I didn't understand the "Palmar tried to shut down discussion in the thread" case. I didn't see that happen tbh. But wasn't in game and didn't read too closely D2;

I can throw a few quick examples-
D1: Didn't want people to bring up new wagons (other than jabberwockzerg).
ex: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#565

D2: Shut down points on merits of M_Z/slOosh.

D3: His response to scumhunting was basically 'let's not play this game any more unless M_Z flips town'
ex:

On June 03 2014 08:59 Amiko wrote:
@Palmar / @Haru / @Alakaslam:
Do you think mderg is buddying me? Or do his posts feel natural to you?

On June 03 2014 09:17 Palmar wrote:
Do I have to care?

(though seriously this is most of his d3 filter)

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 10 2014 19:48 GMT

#1526

On June 11 2014 04:36 marvellosity wrote:

Show nested quote +

tbh it pretty much feels like when Palmar said on d4 that you needed to learn from what went down, that you haven't.

You're trying to post-hoc justify his play as scummy when he was town?

On this
I argued his play was scummy quite a bit in the game, so I don't see why you are saying it is post-hoc.

And yeah Palmar's lesson to me on d4 was 'don't play scared' and I don't see how that applies to your point (or how being scared = being bullheaded)?

Amiko

United States1725 Posts

June 10 2014 20:16 GMT

#1533

I guess I just disagree - I feel like that kind of thing happens all the time when I play in person (and actually happens on video mafia sometimes as well, though I haven't played it), so I'm surprised you don't see it on forums more.

I've changed my mind on people all the time... in my first game, I started LYLO convinced that one player (Valenius) was mafia, to the point I told him that he should vote the 3rd player (theDragoon) but I would probably still vote Valenius anyway. By the end of the day I moved to the other.
I just don't value tone reads much (especially on forums when I can't even see or hear the person), I'd rather look at the whole game than one day.

I don't disagree that town can shut down discussion... I had this conversation with my coach. I just feel that sooner or later you have to pick what heuristic you are going to use.
More than one person is switching their vote to town at deadline.
More than one person are encouraging people to switch their vote to town.
More than one person is using bad logic.
More than one person is changing reads without much reason.
More than one person is making really strange end of day comments.
More than one person is being idle when a lynch isn't certain.
I have to pick some sort of grounds to decide who is scummy and who isn't (or I can just RNG). I really think the n2 roleblock was a fair thing to hang my hat on. If you agree, then the lynches should be Palmar and Fuba.

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