• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:05
CEST 17:05
KST 00:05
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202537Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments3[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder9EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced53BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Interview with Chris "ChanmanV" Chan Serral wins EWC 2025 Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 Classic: "It's a thick wall to break through to become world champ"
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
Which top zerg/toss will fail in qualifiers? Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Nobody gona talk about this year crazy qualifiers? BW General Discussion Scmdraft 2 - 0.9.0 Preview
Tourneys
[ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2 [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 1 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
[G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
9/11 Anniversary Possible Al Qaeda Attack on 9/11 US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
The Link Between Fitness and…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 703 users

TL 'Order' LXVI Mafia - Page 140

Forum Index > TL Mafia
Post a Reply
Prev 1 138 139 140 141 142 308 Next
roundabound
Profile Joined February 2014
Niue881 Posts
June 15 2014 10:16 GMT
#2781
I luurrvve mocsta !
Mocsta & IAmRobik hydra
roundabound
Profile Joined February 2014
Niue881 Posts
June 15 2014 10:17 GMT
#2782
i am not drunk I PROMISE !
Mocsta & IAmRobik hydra
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
June 15 2014 10:28 GMT
#2783
My mafia hype has been completely overtaken by world cup hype.

Gonna drop a quick vote before I head to bed on someone who's more afk than I am

##Vote: Erandorr
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30774 Posts
June 15 2014 10:32 GMT
#2784
What an incredibly useless vote.
roundabound
Profile Joined February 2014
Niue881 Posts
June 15 2014 11:09 GMT
#2785
fuckn robik....
sigh

apolgies to all

~moc
Mocsta & IAmRobik hydra
Tehpoofter
Profile Joined October 2013
United States2911 Posts
June 15 2014 11:49 GMT
#2786
On June 15 2014 19:09 kushm4sta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2014 18:05 Holyflare wrote:
Ok carry on with the game if you think it's bs then because it's not and people will realise it's not. Poofter isn't doing things still which i don't like.


fair point about poofter. although im too lazy to confirm that meta.

but about the bolded, how will people realize your rb claim isn't bs?


That is my wolf meta breaking it this game though. I'm just gonna sheep marv in case I don't wake up for deadline.


## Vote: MattisFoolish


Be back hopefully an hour b4 EOD

Ketomai train being 2nd in votes would make me REALLY happy!!!!!!!!

Rainbows
Profile Joined March 2013
Germany1217 Posts
June 15 2014 11:59 GMT
#2787
Haru not getting votes prolly means he is scumm a lot of ppl say he looks like scum but nobody commits a vote. CR is incredibly mafia for that useless vote.
Rainbows
Profile Joined March 2013
Germany1217 Posts
June 15 2014 12:05 GMT
#2788
Like wow CR abandons all previous reads, even his scumread on haru, to go for a guy that hasnt even posted and will be replaced or modkilled.

im ok with cr lynch too. mif is meh rn
HaruRH
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Singapore2780 Posts
June 15 2014 12:23 GMT
#2789
I'm bored rainbows, you can't make me look scummy at all. I'm done with you xD
It is fucking D4 and you are still alive as a CONFIRMED FUCKING TOWN. This is how fucking terrible scum thinks you are - Koshi
HaruRH
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Singapore2780 Posts
June 15 2014 12:26 GMT
#2790
I thought your arguments were very one-dimensional. Looks like even your thinking is one-dimensional.

'OMGWTFBBQ GAIS HALU IS SKUM LEENCH HIM'
'...'
'...'
'yea he might be scum'
'maybe, I agree'
'yea'

And nothing. Rainbows, let me throw more scum remarks your way so that you have more material to work with. Or else I don't feel the excitement of trying to fight back a lynch on me.

Alright let me go back to my scum qt and ask them what to do next
It is fucking D4 and you are still alive as a CONFIRMED FUCKING TOWN. This is how fucking terrible scum thinks you are - Koshi
kushm4sta
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States8878 Posts
June 15 2014 12:29 GMT
#2791
so what is scummy about mattisfoolish?
OMGUS.net, kush sex blogs every friday night
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16318 Posts
June 15 2014 13:18 GMT
#2792
On June 15 2014 13:47 HaruRH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2014 12:46 Chromatically wrote:
On June 15 2014 06:55 Rainbows wrote:
Hey guys, I'm back. I was about to go examine some other people to hopefully get the tunnel vision off, but then I saw Haru posted this reply:

On June 15 2014 04:18 HaruRH wrote:
LCS or World Cup... the decision is very real....

So I just want to wait to see if rainbows is willing to let go, if he is ,I will do so too.


SCUM! Haru only wants to let go if I don't threaten to lynch him. This is NOT TOWNIE. Haru is too concerned with self-preservation. He is attempting to bargain with me so that he can live. "As long as you don't call me scum and try to lynch me, I'll do the same". His scumread on me is not predicated on thinking I'm mafia -- if it were, he would not care if I am simultaneously pressuring him. If he wanted to let go, he would just let go. He is mafia that doesn't want to be in the spotlight anymore. SHINE SHINE MUTHAFUCKA

I am not your buddy Haru. You may be sexy and attractive but you are not my friend, pal. SCUM. DIE.

EVERYBODY VOTE HARU. HE IS MAFIA.

+1 to this btw, I misread Haru's post the first time as "I want to see if rainbows is willing to go", like they were going to have a big showdown or something. Backing off, but only if Rainbows does, makes it seem like his case was only meant to deter Rainbows from attacking him. It's especially weird after he's made a big show of how convinced he is on Rainbows.


OMG +1+1+1

On June 15 2014 21:26 HaruRH wrote:
I thought your arguments were very one-dimensional. Looks like even your thinking is one-dimensional.

'OMGWTFBBQ GAIS HALU IS SKUM LEENCH HIM'
'...'
'...'
'yea he might be scum'
'maybe, I agree'
'yea'

And nothing. Rainbows, let me throw more scum remarks your way so that you have more material to work with. Or else I don't feel the excitement of trying to fight back a lynch on me.

Alright let me go back to my scum qt and ask them what to do next

If you don't stop this shit right now we might aswell lynch you. Just sayin.
On June 15 2014 16:15 Holyflare wrote:
You can criticise it all you want but the fact of the matter is all of those people have actually posted stuff that resembles trying to contribute. If you have good reasons for them to be town then post them. Don't just say "oh lurkers lol"

There was an uncontested lynch on mafia and the only other wagon was kush or snb. If snb is mafia then the lynxh went interely town ddominated the entire day 1 which means that mafia ARE lurkers. If snb is town then mafia still didn't push him hard enough over cats and then mafia would STILL be lurkers.

Like poofter said - there was someone actively and fiercly pushing a different lynch at the end of the day. Not saying you are scum but hey, it is not that obvious to people who aren't you if the scumteam consists of lurkers.
On June 15 2014 19:28 Chairman Ray wrote:
My mafia hype has been completely overtaken by world cup hype.

Gonna drop a quick vote before I head to bed on someone who's more afk than I am

##Vote: Erandorr

Just wtf...
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16318 Posts
June 15 2014 13:22 GMT
#2793
On June 15 2014 14:44 ritoky wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2014 03:45 Chromatically wrote:
On June 14 2014 18:08 ExO_ wrote:
I've taken the time to go back over the end of the day 1 voting, looking for things that might stick out. I think Alakaslam still might be mafia, but I'm not as convinced as I first was when I was reading on my phone. He might just be a spammy bastard.

But I think Chromatically is mafia.

At June 12 2014 13:31 Chrom votes ritoky. At this point the train on KotC is in full swing, and he's up to 9 votes. It's looking like he's going to be lynched. 2 Hours prior however, the vote count was only at 4 for KotC. So a lot of votes moved all at once. 1 hour later at June 12 2014 14:31 Chrom hops on the train.

What's interesting is Chrom's posts in this one hour block.

Before I get to the hour block, lets take a look at some of Chrom's earlier posts. His first vote on Sinani is preceded by this:
On June 11 2014 06:22 Chromatically wrote:
Sinani is mafia for coming into the thread and asking a totally useless question to try to insert himself into the conversation.
On June 11 2014 06:15 sinani206 wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:14 batsnacks wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:13 roundabound wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:09 batsnacks wrote:
He's using nicknames to confuse you = mafia tactic

Please stop dropping terrible logic. I called "killing123" by his real name the entirety of Foundations. I've called "Poofter" by his name every game that I've played with him. If you played video maf with us, you'd probably be prone to doing the same.


Again 0% of this post concerns this game... I'm reading it as a blank post.


what was your post then


Also this sounds like some sort of secret scum code so that pretty much seals the deal.
On June 11 2014 06:16 sinani206 wrote:
the deepest one in the nest


##Vote: sinani206


It almost seems like a sarcastic joke to me at first, to vote Sinani for such an arbitrary reason. Going from page 1-2 of his filter though, he continues to push Sinani pretty hard. Koshi notices this, and calls him Chrom out on it. Chrom clams up after this, asking Yamato for a read on himself. To me this seems like a concerned mafia. The real gold comes after that though:

On June 11 2014 10:19 Chromatically wrote:
On June 11 2014 10:11 Tehpoofter wrote:
On June 11 2014 10:03 Chromatically wrote:
On June 11 2014 08:03 Koshi wrote:
Town, or not lynchable till D3 for myself:
ObiWanShinobi:
Looks fine for now. Till I found everybody town he is town. + fast vote (not quoted). + optimism about fast vote (not quoted).
+ Show Spoiler +

On June 11 2014 05:50 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
batsnacks is the confirmed town hero for finding palmar so early.

im just gonna sheep him forever.


On June 11 2014 05:51 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2014 05:49 yamato77 wrote:
There's a nonzero chance that both bat and palmy are wolves


another good point.

god im so confused.

this game is really hard.

can everyone see what im saying? im saying that im really confused because this game is confusing.

shit i hope nobody notices me omg.


On June 11 2014 05:52 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2014 05:50 roundabound wrote:
On June 11 2014 05:48 Chromatically wrote:
first two people posting claim scum = scum always post first

therefore the first six people to post are scum

gg

Try English.
And Logic.

But, like, seriously, like, what does this, like, even, like, mean?.....Like


roundabout, posting from what appears to be one of the moons of jupiter. very interesting.

hows the weather up there?


On June 11 2014 05:54 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2014 05:53 Tehpoofter wrote:
On June 11 2014 05:48 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
fuck i got town again.


Gonna have to CC you hear I also rolled town.


hi im poofter and i cannot english someone help




Chairman Ray:
Not an awkward entrance. I am cool with CR. Also a case that looks coming from town .
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 11 2014 05:52 Chairman Ray wrote:
Not everyone who townclaimed is town. I see them posting in my mafia QT. Stop lying guys.

On June 11 2014 06:43 Chairman Ray wrote:
First scumread for me: roundabound

Show nested quote +
On June 11 2014 06:03 roundabound wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:00 Tehpoofter wrote:
On June 11 2014 05:56 roundabound wrote:
On June 11 2014 05:51 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
On June 11 2014 05:49 yamato77 wrote:
There's a nonzero chance that both bat and palmy are wolves


another good point.

god im so confused.

this game is really hard.

can everyone see what im saying? im saying that im really confused because this game is confusing.

shit i hope nobody notices me omg.

I wanna bait this post so badly and see who is the first to call out obiwan for this shitty shit shitterson of a post because it's so easy to hammer him on the lack of anything logical or tangible here. The post is too scummy to be written by scum


You should have waited to see if anyone would bite you literally waited 5 minutes. Rolling mafia as a hydra must suck, especially since Robik doesn't wolf very well.

##Vote: Roundaboud

I'm impatient Banksy. Plus, I don't know how to bait shit. You know how I play...I just spout whatever the hell comes to my head at the moment. Plus, I think that baiting is kinda silly in general. It's too tough to do properly, and unless people read the post the same way you do, you end up with a shitton of people just thinking that you're scum defending a scum buddy instead of reading you for making a good play.


The self-aware weak player. If you are so knowledgeable that you spout what just comes to your head, why don't you just not do it this game instead of analyzing your own weaknesses? A town player will usually try to not exhibit weaknesses that they are completely aware of, and if they do make a mistake, they will try to justify it post-mistake. This feels like someone trying to create a buffer for their future posts so others will read less into scummy play.

Show nested quote +
On June 11 2014 06:08 roundabound wrote:
Banks, I don't like that you haven't cleared me yet. I'm the easiest read of all fucking time.


I hear this a lot of mafia players when I play live mafia. One of the main benchmarks of skill in mafia is other players not being able to trust if you are town or mafia. It becomes really obvious whether or not a newer player is town or scum, but not the better players. This is another self-aware weak player card that I feel would rarely be played by a town player.

Show nested quote +
On June 11 2014 06:10 roundabound wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:07 Chromatically wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:04 Tehpoofter wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:01 Holyflare wrote:
Sign your posts bro, also wont be playing till Thursday, cya!


This post is Howling like a boss.

Why?

Also roundabound it makes me sad that you only reply to poofter and not me . What do you think of the people pushing you?

The only person pushing me is Banks. I've only seen him lurk as mafia on TL and I've seen him be active as town. If posting volume drops or if logic fails or if he doesn't clear me at some point, he might be mafia, otherwise, he's town.


Again, he's putting the onus on others to clear him as town. He also prematurely dropped the read on banks that banks is active as town and not so much as mafia. This is something you keep in your mind and say AFTER bank shows that he's active or lurking. Saying this prematurely is an indication that round never had the intention to read into banks.




TehPoofter:
Town for being around joyfully. This post is unlikely comming from scumPoofter. First it is totally random, secondly he promises to spam:
+ Show Spoiler +

On June 11 2014 06:03 Tehpoofter wrote:
Speaking of Wolves and Villages. This Game Recently got to 28000 Posts over on 2p2 we can easily beat that number. We just need to channel are inner spamming, Think Holyflare/Steveling but with ADHD and no sleep schedule. Thats my goal this game.



roundabound:
Not on the lynchtable because is progressing the game. Could be more friendly while doing so though. I do not agree with some of the points he makes and I saw him completely missinterpret a post. But I do'n't think he is scum purposely shitting up the thread so he is town for now.
+ Show Spoiler +

On June 11 2014 06:10 roundabound wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2014 06:07 Chromatically wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:04 Tehpoofter wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:01 Holyflare wrote:
Sign your posts bro, also wont be playing till Thursday, cya!


This post is Howling like a boss.

Why?

Also roundabound it makes me sad that you only reply to poofter and not me . What do you think of the people pushing you?

The only person pushing me is Banks. I've only seen him lurk as mafia on TL and I've seen him be active as town. If posting volume drops or if logic fails or if he doesn't clear me at some point, he might be mafia, otherwise, he's town.


On June 11 2014 05:53 roundabound wrote:
This is a really weird reaction from Palmar.

If he claims to want to be mafia and rolls town, I think the reaction would be "fuck, I rolled town this sucks", not "fuck I got my role". Obviously he can't just say "SWEET, I GOT MAFIA," but I feel like he'd express more disappointment about rolling town after the first post.

Show nested quote +
On June 11 2014 05:41 Palmar wrote:
On June 11 2014 05:30 batsnacks wrote:
I didn't get my role yet.

Scumclaim. I know I'm mafia because I requested it and I also know I haven't received my role, so I can only assume that mafia gets roles sent last.

Nailed you, bitch.


Show nested quote +
On June 11 2014 05:45 Palmar wrote:
Fuck I got my role. I don't even know what it does. brb.



On June 11 2014 06:24 roundabound wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2014 06:22 Chromatically wrote:
Sinani is mafia for coming into the thread and asking a totally useless question to try to insert himself into the conversation.
On June 11 2014 06:15 sinani206 wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:14 batsnacks wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:13 roundabound wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:09 batsnacks wrote:
He's using nicknames to confuse you = mafia tactic

Please stop dropping terrible logic. I called "killing123" by his real name the entirety of Foundations. I've called "Poofter" by his name every game that I've played with him. If you played video maf with us, you'd probably be prone to doing the same.


Again 0% of this post concerns this game... I'm reading it as a blank post.


what was your post then


Also this sounds like some sort of secret scum code so that pretty much seals the deal.
On June 11 2014 06:16 sinani206 wrote:
the deepest one in the nest


##Vote: sinani206

You think that sinani posting that is worse than batsnacks not being able to respond and disprove the fact that he's done jack shit? The lack of logic this game so far is baffling.

On June 11 2014 06:27 roundabound wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2014 06:24 roundabound wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:22 Chromatically wrote:
Sinani is mafia for coming into the thread and asking a totally useless question to try to insert himself into the conversation.
On June 11 2014 06:15 sinani206 wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:14 batsnacks wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:13 roundabound wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:09 batsnacks wrote:
He's using nicknames to confuse you = mafia tactic

Please stop dropping terrible logic. I called "killing123" by his real name the entirety of Foundations. I've called "Poofter" by his name every game that I've played with him. If you played video maf with us, you'd probably be prone to doing the same.


Again 0% of this post concerns this game... I'm reading it as a blank post.


what was your post then


Also this sounds like some sort of secret scum code so that pretty much seals the deal.
On June 11 2014 06:16 sinani206 wrote:
the deepest one in the nest


##Vote: sinani206

You think that sinani posting that is worse than batsnacks not being able to respond and disprove the fact that he's done jack shit? The lack of logic this game so far is baffling.

Sinani asked batsnacks what batsnacks has done all game. He wasn't able to answer the question and he disappeared.

Batsnacks says that he's voting me because he hates hydras. He then goes on to soft push on me by saying shit like "this post isn't about this game so it doesn't mean anything" trying to justify his stupid vote





awkward corner aka might lynch will watch:
Chromatically:
I don't like how he entered the thread. I don't like how he pushing sinani so hard. I don't like it because I don't see it. I can see the point he makes about entering the game with a pointless question trying to blend in. But I don't like how Chrom is blowing these questions up trying to twist it into mafia mindset. Did sinani enter the thread with a question? yes. Did it show mafia mindset. No. The question he asked JAT wasn't what Chrom is making it out to be. It was a pretty legit question. Somebody votes for Robik --> Robik replies --> Somebody says Robik is overdefensive --> sinani doesn't agree that Robik was overdefensive. I have now read Sinani his filter three times. I am puzzled by his filter. I do not see how Chrom can have such a strong scumread on Sinani that he is asking everybody to sheep him.

tldr: Awkward entrance + Too strong scumread.
+ Show Spoiler +

On June 11 2014 05:48 Chromatically wrote:
first two people posting claim scum = scum always post first

therefore the first six people to post are scum

gg

On June 11 2014 05:50 Chromatically wrote:
Oh yeah I'm also town, in case anyone was wondering.

Now we just need the rest of the game to claim and we should be good.

On June 11 2014 06:22 Chromatically wrote:
Sinani is mafia for coming into the thread and asking a totally useless question to try to insert himself into the conversation.
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2014 06:15 sinani206 wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:14 batsnacks wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:13 roundabound wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:09 batsnacks wrote:
He's using nicknames to confuse you = mafia tactic

Please stop dropping terrible logic. I called "killing123" by his real name the entirety of Foundations. I've called "Poofter" by his name every game that I've played with him. If you played video maf with us, you'd probably be prone to doing the same.


Again 0% of this post concerns this game... I'm reading it as a blank post.


what was your post then


Also this sounds like some sort of secret scum code so that pretty much seals the deal.
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2014 06:16 sinani206 wrote:
the deepest one in the nest


##Vote: sinani206



TicaTica:
Entrance to the thread with a soft defense, a one-liner that looks extremely hard like an attempt to get towncred from those who he defends. the intention behind the entire post screams: Hi guys, I am town because I am helping. The buddying with marv makes me uncomfortable. Rest of filter is filler.
+ Show Spoiler +

On June 11 2014 06:49 TicaTica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2014 06:22 Chromatically wrote:
Sinani is mafia for coming into the thread and asking a totally useless question to try to insert himself into the conversation.
On June 11 2014 06:15 sinani206 wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:14 batsnacks wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:13 roundabound wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:09 batsnacks wrote:
He's using nicknames to confuse you = mafia tactic

Please stop dropping terrible logic. I called "killing123" by his real name the entirety of Foundations. I've called "Poofter" by his name every game that I've played with him. If you played video maf with us, you'd probably be prone to doing the same.


Again 0% of this post concerns this game... I'm reading it as a blank post.


what was your post then


Also this sounds like some sort of secret scum code so that pretty much seals the deal.
On June 11 2014 06:16 sinani206 wrote:
the deepest one in the nest


##Vote: sinani206

Nisani und sinani be known lurkers irregardless of randed roll.


On June 11 2014 06:54 TicaTica wrote:
Marvelocity potential is villagery. Would be benefit if hydra heads were both to talk. Plammer is inherent wolfy.


On June 11 2014 07:06 TicaTica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2014 07:04 marvellosity wrote:
On June 11 2014 07:01 justanothertownie wrote:
On June 11 2014 07:00 marvellosity wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:57 justanothertownie wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:56 marvellosity wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:55 justanothertownie wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:50 sinani206 wrote:
On June 11 2014 06:46 Chromatically wrote:
Sinani what do you think of JAT?


Mostly one-liners and wishy washy, I don't really have time right now to quote because I have a meeting at 2:50 but if he keeps this kind of useless posting up I can see a chance of him being red.

In this post sinani basically gives a null read on me. His reasoning can be used for almost 100 % of the players in this game.
I think he added the part with the "chance of being red" to create the illusion that his question towards me had something to do with scumhunting -> tries to get Chrom off his ass.

and therefore your conclusion?

I think it's kinda scummy.

I tend to agree, "if he keeps this up i can see a chance of him being red" is like so many layers of qualifiers :p

on the other hand i'm pretty taken aback that sinani is posting volumously at all. that's a turn up for the books.

Well, is it alignment indicative though? I never played with him afaik.

well i'd expect a mafia-sinani not to bother. that's like a teensy lean though.

Am surprised your not pushing this thought more. -villagry points to mar velocity.



##vote: TicaTica

Wow.

Your scumread on me is not even a scumread. You listed a bunch of things I did that you didn't like or disagreed with. What you did not do is explain how they make me scum. You "didn't like my entrance"- how does that make me scum? You actually say that you disagree with my scumread- how does that make me scum? Even when you're talking about how you disagree with my scumread, you don't quote the case and look at what parts of it you think could come from scum, you just mention why you disagree with some parts of it. And then you basically make up the part where I was "asking everyone to sheep me", because I was making a deliberate point of not doing that (I asked marv because I wanted his opinion, but I'm not going around asking people to start a wagon).

I don't see at all how your points lead you to think I'm scum.


What do you think of Koshi's alignment? Is he making this post as a villager or a wolf?

I want to see his explanation of his read on me. Right now, it looks like he's not actually thinking about who's scummy, more about what things he can throw suspicion on. As town, he would be worried about why the things I've done make me scum, but as mafia, he would be happy to give out a read where he just says things he doesn't like (regardless of mafia motivation).

The thing I'm worried about is that, as scum, he would be more wary of giving out townreads with such shoddy reasoning in such a blatant way, because it draws attention to himself.

So explanation.


Sound familiar? It seems to me he did to Sinani exactly what he said Koshi was doing to him. After this going from page 2-3 on his filter, he continues to freak out at Koshi a bit. Just like with Yamato, he asks Koshi about Koshi's read on himself. To me, it looks like Chrom is very worried about what everyone thinks about him. Regarding Koshi, he even goes on to say:

On June 12 2014 01:53 Chromatically wrote:
On June 12 2014 01:21 Koshi wrote:
I am not even pushing for his lynch. Sorry I dared to say something bad about him. Sorry for trying to pressure him.

I GOT IT CHROM

I AM NOT ALLOWED TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT YOU.

SORRY BRO

OUTRAAAAGGGGEEEEE.

My point in asking that question was that this does not sound like someone talking to their scumread. This sounds like he thinks I'm town.

Think about it. If you're town and your scumread posts a big case on you claiming that you're misrepresenting them and trying to get you lynched, you're probably going to be mad/attack back and defend yourself. You wouldn't jokingly apologize to your scumread for pushing them, when you think they're scum trying to mislynch you.


He's literally putting words into Koshi's mouth, saying that he's town. The banter with Koshi goes on for a little bit, and he starts asking for reads on Koshi. At the bottom of page 3 of his filter he says:

On June 12 2014 09:28 Chromatically wrote:
I'm going to see what people are on about with ketomai because I didn't really get it when he was in the thread.


Followed by:

On June 12 2014 09:41 Chromatically wrote:
I think ketomai totally depends on what he posts next. The thing that happened in thread could have easily been a townie startled by people jumping on him before he starts playing. I agree that it's weird that he feels like he has to vote between round and Exo, but it's not really scummy..? He could have easily left his vote on himself and that would draw less attention.

What he posts next is the important part.


This part isn't super relevant to my case, but I'm pointing it out here in case my case turns out to be correct. Ketomai has been suspected quite a bit, and here Chrom isn't exactly defending him but he is lightly trying to divert attention off of Ketomai. He's not joining any trains of thought against Keto though.

Right before the "magic hour" I referred to earlier, we see Chrom trying to divert away from cats with:

On June 13 2014 03:05 Chromatically wrote:
Can't we just lynch ritoky?


and

On June 13 2014 03:12 Chromatically wrote:
The case on Cats is good but it basically relies on him being experienced/good. He could be actually new or just really bad. ritoky has done things that are scum-motivated, not just bad. I'll consolidate my case because I think I wasn't very clear yesterday.


That's just about all he had to say about cats, sorta in what I would call a "yeah yeah, but!" fashion. He doesn't want to say the case against cats is bad, but he doesn't want to encourage it either, and I think this post is a great way to try to push another case while acknowledging the cats case as little as possible.

So we finally get to this hour. I understand at this point the voting is nearing its end. But chrom posts 12 times, his biggest concentration of posts yet. I won't quote all 12 posts, you can eaisly find them on his filter and they're going to clog this already clogged post. From 13:31 to 14:11 he was heavily pushing ritoky, I think in a desperate attempt to get the focus off king and onto somebody else. He gave it one last effort here:

On June 13 2014 04:11 Chromatically wrote:
It's not even worth it for me to push for ritoky if people don't want to go for it but I just think the case is watertight.


But after this point I think he and the mafia saw the writing on the wall. So after 14:11 it's damage control mode.

On June 13 2014 04:26 Chromatically wrote:
On June 13 2014 04:15 Holyflare wrote:
chrom your ritoky case applies to half the people in the game, why is ritoky pushing on you and sometimes mz different from kotc pushing on batsnacks for the worst reasons known to man? why you push yours over sheep? why you want to be so speshul?

It doesn't though. The whole point is that ritoky isn't actually pushing on me. He's not trying to get me lynched at all. He just doesn't post about anything other than me, which is super scummy. AND he always responds to questions at him but never does anything.

I'm trying to show the active lurking thing with quotes but I can't figure out how the timestamps work. It's something I noticed when I was talking to him. I would say something and he would immediately respond, and then some time later I would say something and he would immediately respond, but post nothing in the meantime. Someone else noticed it too (I thought it was JAT but it's not in his filter), I can't find the quote.

I'm not going to defend Cats because he's pretty awful too. I just think my case is like a surefire scum lynch. No town does the things that ritoky does.


On June 13 2014 04:28 Chromatically wrote:
case on Cats >>> case on Kush
Kush is like a 100% coinflip, he's just one of the people not playing.


On June 13 2014 04:31 Chromatically wrote:
##Unvote
##Vote: TheKingOfTheCats

Half an hour left and ritoky's not happening.

I'll look at kush's meta and stuff but I really doubt he's going to be a better lynch today.



I think after 14:11, Chrom accepted that he was going to lose a teammate and decided that transitioning to the KotC wagon was his best move to stay alive. He never really says why he agrees with the KotC case, or anything about it really. Not even in the same ballpark as how much he said about Ritoky. Based on what I've presented here, I think we should lynch Chrom next. I'm not 100% sure, but short of being the seer I don't think there is a 100% sure in this game. Perhaps I'm naive in thinking mafia would switch an obvious mafia vote once it was determined it was unavoidable that mafia would die. But I think I'd try to do something similar if I was mafia, especially on the day 1 lynch. So that's my piece, let me know what you think. I think if you read chrom's filter since the lynching, he's pretty obviously trying to divert people from suspecting him. But for a townie, he sure is thinking an awful lot like a mafia.

##Vote Chromatically

I don't really want to go through everything in this post because most of it is non-alignment indicative and/or I've already talked about it (my push on sinani, why I asked for Koshi's read on me, how I felt about Cats). If you have specific points that you want me to address, tell me.

I think you're stretching a bit with your part about the lynch, though. You can certainly make the argument that my actions around the lynch were scum-motivated (although not if ritoky flips mafia as well), but it's not as clear-cut as you're trying to make it out to be. When I posted my case on ritoky, Cats had 9 votes and ritoky had 0. If I was scum, it would already BE "damage control mode"; the chances of swinging the lynch onto ritoky were minimal, especially as no one else had been really pushing ritoky all day. All it would accomplish is looking weird after the flip (yes, this is kind of WIFOM, but I think that's "wine that's harder to drink", so to speak).

It seems to me like you're inventing a storyline to fit your conception when you add things like "Chrom clams up after this", "He's literally putting words into Koshi's mouth", and talking about preflip associations.


I think you're downplaying the seriousness of your push to try and make a mockery of a very solid case. I think my case against you alone is still strong, but I think the push you made on me late in the day that exo pointed out and I noticed as well is even more damning.

There was a guy with 8 votes on him a decent bit out from the deadline, and he wasn't just some mafia dude; it was a lynch that if it passed would reduce KP. If I was mafia, I would put in at least some effort to try and save KP. So in my opinion there had to be some wagon or some push that was made by mafia against someone to try and save the KP. My question to you chrom is, where was it? Was it the snb wagon etc.? My follow-up will be, why the hell aren't you pushing on those people then?

Personally, I think that you and maybe Haru are the ones that tried to organize and make a push to save KP against someone you thought was low hanging fruit and could push with a crappy case. It didn't work out and you tried to run away and gain back town cred without anyone noticing what you did. I just don't see the mafia (even if it is day 1) letting KP reduction happen significant contest, and I think you were the one who tried to push it moreso than anyone on the snb train.


voting on chrom, everyone else should too

I said I would come back with a read on banks in a bit, and I will deliver. It is entirely a meta read so take it with a grain of salt if you don't like meta reads. In the previous 2 games I have played with him he has come out as super town the first day phase both games and very easily lands in most people in the thread's top 2-3 town list. Then during day 2 he pretty much disappears. He goes from pushy, full of questions, and with substantive reads to pretty much not that. The most important thing imo though is that during day 2 of these 2 games he's been mafia in a row (and a lot of his video mafia) he does 1 big thing on day 2 as mafia: he doesn't push lynch targets and instead defers to others to find primary lynch targets. I think he is doing that again today. On top of that I have a tiny thing I have noticed from watching some of his video mafia and being in a couple forum games that he does on day 2, it has been 100% accurate of him being mafia in 2 forums games and its about 70% accurate of him being mafia when he does it in the video games I have seen. And he just did it recently. I think he could very likely be mafia here, but I would never push him over chrom who is obviously mafia at this point.

Regarding Haru, I think he came out the worse of the exchange with rainbows, especially that "I'll drop it if you drop it" comment. If you think he is scum then no you shouldn't drop it. He could very likely be a scum buddy with chrom, as they did go together in on the wagon on me that exo pointed out.

Also I saw some votes on sandroba? Is that supposed to be policy lynch? Cuz I don't know why you would waste those votes, the guy is damn near being modkilled from inactivity at this point. His filter isn't even on the 2nd page.

I also really want ticatica to get active as he is one of my strongest town reads from a few things, but mostly this post:

Show nested quote +
On June 13 2014 03:31 TicaTica wrote:
I'm not sold on the King lynch but it's far from awful. I'll consolidate on it if needed versus say SnB. But I'm pretty sure Marv will get his way regardless so I'll do what I want.


This is after he votes on ketomai. I think this post is 100% unnecessary if you are mafia. There's about 10 votes on the guy, he is obviously going down; so if he was mafia I feel like he would just take the free town cred like chrom did. I really want him to get more involved in the game.

Plus he voted for ketomai who I wouldn't exactly be opposed to lynching. Ketomai voted on snb over KoC for not a particularly good reason. I didn't like his read on koshi, sinani, or exo when he gave them. If there's a world where the mafia were on the snb train to try and save KP instead of the whole chrom push thing, then this guy is probably one of them. Although I think chrom is more surefired mafia.

tl;dr - just vote chrom

To the red part: What is your opinion on HF then? Why do you just ignore him?
To the green part: You either believe Ketomai that he was absent or not. If he did not lie about that he didn't really have the opportunity to vote correctly.
HaruRH
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Singapore2780 Posts
June 15 2014 13:24 GMT
#2794
On June 15 2014 22:18 justanothertownie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2014 13:47 HaruRH wrote:
On June 15 2014 12:46 Chromatically wrote:
On June 15 2014 06:55 Rainbows wrote:
Hey guys, I'm back. I was about to go examine some other people to hopefully get the tunnel vision off, but then I saw Haru posted this reply:

On June 15 2014 04:18 HaruRH wrote:
LCS or World Cup... the decision is very real....

So I just want to wait to see if rainbows is willing to let go, if he is ,I will do so too.


SCUM! Haru only wants to let go if I don't threaten to lynch him. This is NOT TOWNIE. Haru is too concerned with self-preservation. He is attempting to bargain with me so that he can live. "As long as you don't call me scum and try to lynch me, I'll do the same". His scumread on me is not predicated on thinking I'm mafia -- if it were, he would not care if I am simultaneously pressuring him. If he wanted to let go, he would just let go. He is mafia that doesn't want to be in the spotlight anymore. SHINE SHINE MUTHAFUCKA

I am not your buddy Haru. You may be sexy and attractive but you are not my friend, pal. SCUM. DIE.

EVERYBODY VOTE HARU. HE IS MAFIA.

+1 to this btw, I misread Haru's post the first time as "I want to see if rainbows is willing to go", like they were going to have a big showdown or something. Backing off, but only if Rainbows does, makes it seem like his case was only meant to deter Rainbows from attacking him. It's especially weird after he's made a big show of how convinced he is on Rainbows.


OMG +1+1+1

Show nested quote +
On June 15 2014 21:26 HaruRH wrote:
I thought your arguments were very one-dimensional. Looks like even your thinking is one-dimensional.

'OMGWTFBBQ GAIS HALU IS SKUM LEENCH HIM'
'...'
'...'
'yea he might be scum'
'maybe, I agree'
'yea'

And nothing. Rainbows, let me throw more scum remarks your way so that you have more material to work with. Or else I don't feel the excitement of trying to fight back a lynch on me.

Alright let me go back to my scum qt and ask them what to do next

If you don't stop this shit right now we might aswell lynch you. Just sayin.
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2014 16:15 Holyflare wrote:
You can criticise it all you want but the fact of the matter is all of those people have actually posted stuff that resembles trying to contribute. If you have good reasons for them to be town then post them. Don't just say "oh lurkers lol"

There was an uncontested lynch on mafia and the only other wagon was kush or snb. If snb is mafia then the lynxh went interely town ddominated the entire day 1 which means that mafia ARE lurkers. If snb is town then mafia still didn't push him hard enough over cats and then mafia would STILL be lurkers.

Like poofter said - there was someone actively and fiercly pushing a different lynch at the end of the day. Not saying you are scum but hey, it is not that obvious to people who aren't you if the scumteam consists of lurkers.
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2014 19:28 Chairman Ray wrote:
My mafia hype has been completely overtaken by world cup hype.

Gonna drop a quick vote before I head to bed on someone who's more afk than I am

##Vote: Erandorr

Just wtf...


tsk, others shouldn't be involved in this argument.

Here's a question I'll pose instead,
Is a townie a scum if you call him a scum?
It is fucking D4 and you are still alive as a CONFIRMED FUCKING TOWN. This is how fucking terrible scum thinks you are - Koshi
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16318 Posts
June 15 2014 13:25 GMT
#2795
On June 15 2014 21:29 kushm4sta wrote:
so what is scummy about mattisfoolish?

The fact that they are barely playing.
ketomai
Profile Joined June 2007
United States2789 Posts
June 15 2014 13:35 GMT
#2796
Caught up a bit, here are my current thoughts:

Haru/Rainbow: Can't tell because they're both only attacking each other but it seems so forced that I can't help but suspect one or both are mafia. Having a feud like this gives an easy way to stash your vote so that it doesn't matter. There's other evidence that makes me believe either one of them could be mafia, but not strong enough yet.

round: can't tell if bad or trying to stir up trouble as mafia. Could also be an easy way to stash the vote, as I've theorized in the past about me being easy misdirection.

marv: more town than before, to address my previous concerns. My theory would've been that there's mafia somewhere between jat, obiwan, and palmar that helped him start the wagon to bus KoC. It's still a possibility that votes 3/4 were mafia, but assuming marv is mafia, Palmar seemed like such a likely mafia case because he sheeped him so automatically early that it was easy to sheep him whenever without suspicion. I would have thought Palmar would have been mafia because he'd need the obvious sheep help on pushing a KoC case from literally nowhere.

sinani: Still believe he's mafia. Has not contributed at all except pops up immediately when someone defends him. Still has not done anything but defend himself and vote the easy vote on me. Doesn't provide content because he's happy with round's shitty and unreadable post. I can't believe anyone in their right mind would use that post.

I'm all for a MIF lynch. His flip will reveal a good deal about sandroba anyway, so it's nice. Also if he flips mafia, jat and marv are pretty much 100% town for me. I want a sinani lynch but it's too late to get more information out of him in time so I suppose we can save that later.



ketomai
Profile Joined June 2007
United States2789 Posts
June 15 2014 13:40 GMT
#2797
And yea, MIF is really inactive for a hydra. His read on MZ makes him an easy choice as well. Before MZ became "confirmed vig", he was an easy potential mafia to be abused and MIF went in on MZ. He also went in on sandroba (who we also don't have much information about) so let's see how this turns out I suppose.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16318 Posts
June 15 2014 13:41 GMT
#2798
On June 15 2014 22:35 ketomai wrote:
marv: more town than before, to address my previous concerns. My theory would've been that there's mafia somewhere between jat, obiwan, and palmar that helped him start the wagon to bus KoC. It's still a possibility that votes 3/4 were mafia, but assuming marv is mafia, Palmar seemed like such a likely mafia case because he sheeped him so automatically early that it was easy to sheep him whenever without suspicion. I would have thought Palmar would have been mafia because he'd need the obvious sheep help on pushing a KoC case from literally nowhere.

sinani: Still believe he's mafia. Has not contributed at all except pops up immediately when someone defends him. Still has not done anything but defend himself and vote the easy vote on me. Doesn't provide content because he's happy with round's shitty and unreadable post. I can't believe anyone in their right mind would use that post.

I'm all for a MIF lynch. His flip will reveal a good deal about sandroba anyway, so it's nice. Also if he flips mafia, jat and marv are pretty much 100% town for me. I want a sinani lynch but it's too late to get more information out of him in time so I suppose we can save that later.

Do you have any actual reasons for your so called "theory"? Why would mafia help marv to start a wagon on mafia and willingly reduce KP in the process. Sense it does not make. Also if someone just automatically sheeps someone it is HIGHLY unlikely that they are both mafia in my experience.

Not terribly opposed to you sinani read though. Maybe I lack the meta knowledge but I don't see how he is very towny.

Why does MIFs flip say anything at all about sandroba?
ketomai
Profile Joined June 2007
United States2789 Posts
June 15 2014 13:47 GMT
#2799
If you read MIF's feed he's onto MZ and sandroba from the beginning. I find it highly unlikely that he brings attention to a lurking fellow mafia when that's kind of what he's doing himself (if he's mafia).

My theory is just to caution the possibility. It was just a possibility that I wanted to warn the town about but obviously if you net 2 mafia kills, it's very unlikely. My reason for the theory is that KoC's lynch was too easy and the bandwagon started too fast off of Palmar, you and Obi. It came out of nowhere and wasn't all that strong. Yes, it's unlikely that 1KP was sacrificed that early, but it's not impossible. A strategy from mafia like this could be devastating if executed correctly, proven by how nobody but myself found it weird at all.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
June 15 2014 13:57 GMT
#2800
I guess.we have to vote kush for saying nothing.

VayneAuthority
You said kush is town. You sure?
I had a good night of sleep.
Prev 1 138 139 140 141 142 308 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
14:00
Playoff - Day 2/2 - Final
Mihu vs FengziLIVE!
Dewalt vs BonythLIVE!
ZZZero.O194
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Hui .300
mcanning 102
ProTech51
SpeCial 49
MindelVK 42
ForJumy 32
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 5975
Mini 1168
Horang2 977
Stork 874
EffOrt 637
Hyuk 486
ggaemo 459
firebathero 338
Mong 293
hero 271
[ Show more ]
Larva 214
ZZZero.O 203
Leta 123
Zeus 97
ToSsGirL 91
TY 85
Sea.KH 33
Sharp 15
Terrorterran 14
NaDa 4
Dota 2
Gorgc4636
qojqva3428
420jenkins380
XcaliburYe356
League of Legends
Reynor67
Counter-Strike
fl0m2402
tarik_tv1749
sgares153
ScreaM123
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu445
Khaldor442
Other Games
B2W.Neo874
Happy322
mouzStarbuck203
ArmadaUGS115
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV34
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Gemini_19 89
• Berry_CruncH86
• davetesta47
• Reevou 11
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• sooper7s
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix9
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV783
League of Legends
• Jankos1576
Upcoming Events
WardiTV European League
56m
ByuN vs ShoWTimE
HeRoMaRinE vs MaxPax
Wardi Open
19h 56m
OSC
1d 8h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
HCC Europe
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CAC 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.